Is there a theme to Wonder Woman´s villains...?

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#51 Posted by TheSaiyanMan (1745 posts) - - Show Bio

Her villains are usually about gender, love vs war, and submission vs domination. Ares-the god of war ofc, Circe is her philosophical mirror-the hateful domination to diana's loving submission (changing people to their worst self/i.e the whole turning people beastly thing) and Cheetah is her quintessential jealous mastermind but she's suffering an illness(sometimes split personality, sometimes a curse). Her other characters deal with those things as well Silver Swan(gender, rehabilitation), Dr Psycho(gender/misogyny), Queen Clea(war/politics), Queen Atomia( war), Doctor poison( chemical/bioological warfare, gender), First Born(politics)

Dianas basically the DC gateway to magic but shes isnt all about magic she sometimes dabbles in scifi as well basically theres a decent mix that tends to sway towards magic given her background. I think the connecting thing is her dedication to love, compassion, rehabilitative justice and teaching people to submit to love(which is basically breaking the bonds of evil domination and replacing those bonds with more progressive and helpful bonds/systems/governments/leaders).

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#52 Posted by Jimishim12 (1554 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah the love thing makes Wonder Woman seem like a self entitled ace who has stalkers and haters (her villians) in her school since she's the head popular chick at school IMO.

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#53 Edited by deactivated-599b4bc7465db (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
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#54 Edited by Jimishim12 (1554 posts) - - Show Bio

@willienotwilliam said:

@jimishim12: guess you dont like the character then

She's okay, but like Superman, she is too much an alpha type to invoke my interest since she's meant to enforce concepts through dominating opposing flaws instead of adapting both a relatable sense of idealism that is natural common sense but not knocking off those flaws either.

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#55 Posted by Agent_Z (538 posts) - - Show Bio

@jimishim12: She's used lethal force when the situation called for it. That alone shows she's not as you're describing her.

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#56 Posted by MakkyD (6989 posts) - - Show Bio

Not even all of Batman's villains popular villains fit his "theme". Penguin, Ra's Al Ghul and Bane are relatively sane and those three are all well-known enough to have been the main villains in Batman films.

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#57 Posted by deactivated-599b4bc7465db (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@willienotwilliam said:

@jimishim12: guess you dont like the character then

She's okay, but like Superman, she is too much an alpha type to invoke my interest since she's meant to enforce concepts through dominating opposing flaws instead of adapting both a relatable sense of idealism that is natural common sense but not knocking off those flaws either.

so youd like a mos treatment for her so to speak?

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#58 Edited by deactivated-599b4bc7465db (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

@makkyd: ofc not ALL of her villains are gonna fit one specific theme nor should they but generally speaking they tend to deal with them but then again me explaining that war is a theme in her mythos is like saying crime is a theme in batmans mythos i guess i used theme to broadly. war is what(or among the things) she deals with, love is how she deals with it is the best i can put it

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#59 Posted by agent41 (15831 posts) - - Show Bio
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#60 Posted by agent41 (15831 posts) - - Show Bio

@jimishim12: She has killed when she saw the situation called for it. Also being an alpha can be said about countless A list characters including Tony Sark and Batman. Her idealism involves equality, fight for truth and justice. Things that are relatable, although what's relatable is subjective just like what people can find boring or funny. It differs based on personal taste.

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#61 Posted by deactivated-599b4bc7465db (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
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#62 Posted by jphulk26 (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

And if there isn´t is that why she´s not as successful?

So, I was on another discussion board and someone was saying that WW has an issue because her villains don´t thematically connect to her. For instance they were saying if you think about it, Batmans villains are connected by being twisted psychological versions of himself. They are usually born out of tragedy, but for whatever reason choose to go the other way from Bruce, and are therefore reflections of what he must fight against becoming. Totally agreed, and Batman certainly has some of the greatest villains ever written.

Now on to Superman, apparently his theme was Brains Vs Brawn. Now I didn´t even understand this one as a theme. How is that a theme even? I mean most of Supermans greatest villains are more brute strength. I mean his major 3, Darkseid, Lex Luthor and Braniac are all brain vs brawn to some degree, but what about Doomsday or Bizzarro. So I wasn´t sure what was meant by that.

So now on to Wonder Woman, Whats the theme? I have to say at first I scratched my head. I´m a defender of everything pre new 52 Wonder Woman, especially her villains. In fact I would go as far as to say she had potentially the second greatest villains set in the DC universe. Her villains for me are more interesting and diverse than Green Lantern or Flash, and they aren´t anywhere near as corny as people think they are. I even think they´re to some extent cooler than Supermans. I mean I love Lex and Braniac, but for me I get much more excited by the prospect of writing Dr. Psycho, Dr. Poison, Ares, Alkyone, Veronica Cale or The Crow Children. All have this great twisted quality to them. Its also a real challenge trying to work out how they can mess with Diana. I´ve also always said these characters are under written, there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept. Infact I thought the only mistake is that Cheetah is seen as her archenemy; now I love Cheetah, she has really grown on me since I first got into Wonder Woman; I have to admit I thought she was pretty weak at first, but then it clicked and I think she´s fantastic. The only problem is she´s not a good face for WW rogues, if you´re trying to have her taken seriously. You need a character that more connects with WW and can be a foil for her emotionally, psychologically as well as physically. One that anyone can look at and think, OK they´re totally badass. My candidates for the future of WW, who should be the posterboys and girls of her villains, Dr. Psycho, Alkyone, Ares. But I digress, as I was saying this question really stomped me. I mean what is theme connecting Dr. Psycho and Ares, and if there isn´t one is that the problem with Wonder Woman? I am so fed up of all the excuses with Wonder Woman, I could literally get really mad at the next person who says something about her bathing suit costume, or invisible jet. Its just all idiotic. But I had to say wow, for a question by a detractor this was a good one.

So I got to thinking, as I´m writing a Wonder Woman script, what connects the Wonder Woman villains I want to use in my 3 part story. There must be something unique about this set that appeals to me. A single thread that I see woven through her story. Just like Spider-Man fights mutant hybrids of animal and man, science experiments gone wrong or Daredevil fights corruption and fear, what is it about Wonder Woman and her colorful rogues that does it for me. Then it dawned on me and I figured it out. There is a thread and please tell me if I´m wrong. Two things connect most of WW best villains: it´s the classic story of Ancient Warrior vs Mystics and Magicians, but set in the modern world. Think Ares, Cheetah, Alkyone, The Gorgans, Dr Psycho, even Venessa Cale mainly uses mystic forces against WW, by being the brains and resources behind the demons who go after WW. This is another theme and I think even stronger. WW represents Peace, her villains, nearly all revel in war, discord and destruction. These aren´t villains whose motives are to take over the world or even necessarily kill WW. These are villains who for one reason or another just enjoy the very notion of inflicting pain and suffering on humanity, exciting panic, or just plunging the world backwards into all out war. Ares of course is the ultimate expression of that, but everyone from Cheetah to Alkyone to Dr. Psycho on a smaller scale all enjoy the same devastation. Now for me that is a pretty badass and unique theme. I love that not one of her villains has the obvious motive of taking over the world or money. The last theme and this is where I out did myself, cause I really searched. The last thing is Diana love of self and inner confidence being the object of obsession. Yes Obsession is a major theme amongst Diana villains. Due to lack of self-love for one reason or another, Diana´s almost natural and instinctive love of self and compassion for others, which they see gives her such freedom, sends the dark monsters of her world into a jealous and obsessive frenzy.

Dr Psycho, in love with Diana, because he hates himself; his warped love for her, and hatred of everything else drives his acts of madness. Cheetah, again, obsessed with Dianas freedom as she is a slave to the curse that has made her the Cheetah, where as Diana´s gift make her free. Veronica Cale, obsessed with Wonder Woman, cause she thinks she hasn´t worked to become WW, its just been given to her. Dr. Cyber, literally so obsessed with Diana´s beauty she wants her face, so she can plaster it to hers. Ares obsessed with the contradictions in Diana´s philosophy, and showing her those contradictions. Alkyone, some weird almost psychopathic obsession with Diana´s mother, and her wish Diana was her child. The list goes on. Again I think this maybe a theme unique to Diana´s rogues. I mean there is alot of obsession in Batman, but its a different type of obsession. Most Batman villains obsession comes from hate of the Batman or wanting to one up him. Diana´s rogues seem to have admiration, jealousy and ultimately different shades of perverted love for the character, resulting in obsession.

So what do you think, have I cracked it?

Are the themes I´ve mentioned wrong?

Maybe theres something I´m missing?

Let me know.

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#63 Edited by Archizooom (2171 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the movie answered that question - Wonder Woman is a “believer”, she’s got faith in humanity despite witnessing the atrocities that humans are capable of, she sees the good in people. Steve and the Oddfellows proved to Diana that “men are everything [Ares] says…but so much more”.

Her villains, on the other hand, should be cynical and hateful, either towards humanity at large or specific identity groups. For instance, Dr. Psycho is a misogynist, Cheetah holds a grudge against Godkind, Circe’s a man-hater so on and so forth. What writers ought to be doing is crafting nuanced and compelling backstories that help you understand where they’re coming from, in a way that really challenges Wonder Woman's worldview

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#64 Posted by masterwitcher88 (1401 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

And if there isn´t is that why she´s not as successful?

So, I was on another discussion board and someone was saying that WW has an issue because her villains don´t thematically connect to her. For instance they were saying if you think about it, Batmans villains are connected by being twisted psychological versions of himself. They are usually born out of tragedy, but for whatever reason choose to go the other way from Bruce, and are therefore reflections of what he must fight against becoming. Totally agreed, and Batman certainly has some of the greatest villains ever written.

Now on to Superman, apparently his theme was Brains Vs Brawn. Now I didn´t even understand this one as a theme. How is that a theme even? I mean most of Supermans greatest villains are more brute strength. I mean his major 3, Darkseid, Lex Luthor and Braniac are all brain vs brawn to some degree, but what about Doomsday or Bizzarro. So I wasn´t sure what was meant by that.

So now on to Wonder Woman, Whats the theme? I have to say at first I scratched my head. I´m a defender of everything pre new 52 Wonder Woman, especially her villains. In fact I would go as far as to say she had potentially the second greatest villains set in the DC universe. Her villains for me are more interesting and diverse than Green Lantern or Flash, and they aren´t anywhere near as corny as people think they are. I even think they´re to some extent cooler than Supermans. I mean I love Lex and Braniac, but for me I get much more excited by the prospect of writing Dr. Psycho, Dr. Poison, Ares, Alkyone, Veronica Cale or The Crow Children. All have this great twisted quality to them. Its also a real challenge trying to work out how they can mess with Diana. I´ve also always said these characters are under written, there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept. Infact I thought the only mistake is that Cheetah is seen as her archenemy; now I love Cheetah, she has really grown on me since I first got into Wonder Woman; I have to admit I thought she was pretty weak at first, but then it clicked and I think she´s fantastic. The only problem is she´s not a good face for WW rogues, if you´re trying to have her taken seriously. You need a character that more connects with WW and can be a foil for her emotionally, psychologically as well as physically. One that anyone can look at and think, OK they´re totally badass. My candidates for the future of WW, who should be the posterboys and girls of her villains, Dr. Psycho, Alkyone, Ares. But I digress, as I was saying this question really stomped me. I mean what is theme connecting Dr. Psycho and Ares, and if there isn´t one is that the problem with Wonder Woman? I am so fed up of all the excuses with Wonder Woman, I could literally get really mad at the next person who says something about her bathing suit costume, or invisible jet. Its just all idiotic. But I had to say wow, for a question by a detractor this was a good one.

So I got to thinking, as I´m writing a Wonder Woman script, what connects the Wonder Woman villains I want to use in my 3 part story. There must be something unique about this set that appeals to me. A single thread that I see woven through her story. Just like Spider-Man fights mutant hybrids of animal and man, science experiments gone wrong or Daredevil fights corruption and fear, what is it about Wonder Woman and her colorful rogues that does it for me. Then it dawned on me and I figured it out. There is a thread and please tell me if I´m wrong. Two things connect most of WW best villains: it´s the classic story of Ancient Warrior vs Mystics and Magicians, but set in the modern world. Think Ares, Cheetah, Alkyone, The Gorgans, Dr Psycho, even Venessa Cale mainly uses mystic forces against WW, by being the brains and resources behind the demons who go after WW. This is another theme and I think even stronger. WW represents Peace, her villains, nearly all revel in war, discord and destruction. These aren´t villains whose motives are to take over the world or even necessarily kill WW. These are villains who for one reason or another just enjoy the very notion of inflicting pain and suffering on humanity, exciting panic, or just plunging the world backwards into all out war. Ares of course is the ultimate expression of that, but everyone from Cheetah to Alkyone to Dr. Psycho on a smaller scale all enjoy the same devastation. Now for me that is a pretty badass and unique theme. I love that not one of her villains has the obvious motive of taking over the world or money. The last theme and this is where I out did myself, cause I really searched. The last thing is Diana love of self and inner confidence being the object of obsession. Yes Obsession is a major theme amongst Diana villains. Due to lack of self-love for one reason or another, Diana´s almost natural and instinctive love of self and compassion for others, which they see gives her such freedom, sends the dark monsters of her world into a jealous and obsessive frenzy.

Dr Psycho, in love with Diana, because he hates himself; his warped love for her, and hatred of everything else drives his acts of madness. Cheetah, again, obsessed with Dianas freedom as she is a slave to the curse that has made her the Cheetah, where as Diana´s gift make her free. Veronica Cale, obsessed with Wonder Woman, cause she thinks she hasn´t worked to become WW, its just been given to her. Dr. Cyber, literally so obsessed with Diana´s beauty she wants her face, so she can plaster it to hers. Ares obsessed with the contradictions in Diana´s philosophy, and showing her those contradictions. Alkyone, some weird almost psychopathic obsession with Diana´s mother, and her wish Diana was her child. The list goes on. Again I think this maybe a theme unique to Diana´s rogues. I mean there is alot of obsession in Batman, but its a different type of obsession. Most Batman villains obsession comes from hate of the Batman or wanting to one up him. Diana´s rogues seem to have admiration, jealousy and ultimately different shades of perverted love for the character, resulting in obsession.

So what do you think, have I cracked it?

Are the themes I´ve mentioned wrong?

Maybe theres something I´m missing?

Let me know.

I mean...I literally...I actually couldn't have said better myself.

I got a question though, about script writing? where did you learn? how did you start? do you have a degree be it minor or major in writing? DM me so we can chat, i'd love to talk to you about actually writing comic scripts to send in to DC and since your the only person I know here that has writing a script it be nice to get some input.

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#65 Edited by Kevinffinity (176 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess this depends on the continuity but based on what I've read.

Ares - Diana fights for peace even though she spent her whole life training for war. Ares is the personification of that hatred, chaos, destruction etc that war brings. However he is War and thus can never be truly defeated. So she keeps fighting.

Cheetah - With Cheetah, it's usually about her hatred. She is filled with anger and pain. With Cheetah, it's about overcoming hatred with love and never giving up on a friend.

Circe - It's about Equality. It's about balance. Circe hates men and Diana goes against inequality regardless of which gender it favours.

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#66 Posted by Kevinffinity (176 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for jphulk26
#67 Posted by jphulk26 (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

And if there isn´t is that why she´s not as successful?

So, I was on another discussion board and someone was saying that WW has an issue because her villains don´t thematically connect to her. For instance they were saying if you think about it, Batmans villains are connected by being twisted psychological versions of himself. They are usually born out of tragedy, but for whatever reason choose to go the other way from Bruce, and are therefore reflections of what he must fight against becoming. Totally agreed, and Batman certainly has some of the greatest villains ever written.

Now on to Superman, apparently his theme was Brains Vs Brawn. Now I didn´t even understand this one as a theme. How is that a theme even? I mean most of Supermans greatest villains are more brute strength. I mean his major 3, Darkseid, Lex Luthor and Braniac are all brain vs brawn to some degree, but what about Doomsday or Bizzarro. So I wasn´t sure what was meant by that.

So now on to Wonder Woman, Whats the theme? I have to say at first I scratched my head. I´m a defender of everything pre new 52 Wonder Woman, especially her villains. In fact I would go as far as to say she had potentially the second greatest villains set in the DC universe. Her villains for me are more interesting and diverse than Green Lantern or Flash, and they aren´t anywhere near as corny as people think they are. I even think they´re to some extent cooler than Supermans. I mean I love Lex and Braniac, but for me I get much more excited by the prospect of writing Dr. Psycho, Dr. Poison, Ares, Alkyone, Veronica Cale or The Crow Children. All have this great twisted quality to them. Its also a real challenge trying to work out how they can mess with Diana. I´ve also always said these characters are under written, there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept. Infact I thought the only mistake is that Cheetah is seen as her archenemy; now I love Cheetah, she has really grown on me since I first got into Wonder Woman; I have to admit I thought she was pretty weak at first, but then it clicked and I think she´s fantastic. The only problem is she´s not a good face for WW rogues, if you´re trying to have her taken seriously. You need a character that more connects with WW and can be a foil for her emotionally, psychologically as well as physically. One that anyone can look at and think, OK they´re totally badass. My candidates for the future of WW, who should be the posterboys and girls of her villains, Dr. Psycho, Alkyone, Ares. But I digress, as I was saying this question really stomped me. I mean what is theme connecting Dr. Psycho and Ares, and if there isn´t one is that the problem with Wonder Woman? I am so fed up of all the excuses with Wonder Woman, I could literally get really mad at the next person who says something about her bathing suit costume, or invisible jet. Its just all idiotic. But I had to say wow, for a question by a detractor this was a good one.

So I got to thinking, as I´m writing a Wonder Woman script, what connects the Wonder Woman villains I want to use in my 3 part story. There must be something unique about this set that appeals to me. A single thread that I see woven through her story. Just like Spider-Man fights mutant hybrids of animal and man, science experiments gone wrong or Daredevil fights corruption and fear, what is it about Wonder Woman and her colorful rogues that does it for me. Then it dawned on me and I figured it out. There is a thread and please tell me if I´m wrong. Two things connect most of WW best villains: it´s the classic story of Ancient Warrior vs Mystics and Magicians, but set in the modern world. Think Ares, Cheetah, Alkyone, The Gorgans, Dr Psycho, even Venessa Cale mainly uses mystic forces against WW, by being the brains and resources behind the demons who go after WW. This is another theme and I think even stronger. WW represents Peace, her villains, nearly all revel in war, discord and destruction. These aren´t villains whose motives are to take over the world or even necessarily kill WW. These are villains who for one reason or another just enjoy the very notion of inflicting pain and suffering on humanity, exciting panic, or just plunging the world backwards into all out war. Ares of course is the ultimate expression of that, but everyone from Cheetah to Alkyone to Dr. Psycho on a smaller scale all enjoy the same devastation. Now for me that is a pretty badass and unique theme. I love that not one of her villains has the obvious motive of taking over the world or money. The last theme and this is where I out did myself, cause I really searched. The last thing is Diana love of self and inner confidence being the object of obsession. Yes Obsession is a major theme amongst Diana villains. Due to lack of self-love for one reason or another, Diana´s almost natural and instinctive love of self and compassion for others, which they see gives her such freedom, sends the dark monsters of her world into a jealous and obsessive frenzy.

Dr Psycho, in love with Diana, because he hates himself; his warped love for her, and hatred of everything else drives his acts of madness. Cheetah, again, obsessed with Dianas freedom as she is a slave to the curse that has made her the Cheetah, where as Diana´s gift make her free. Veronica Cale, obsessed with Wonder Woman, cause she thinks she hasn´t worked to become WW, its just been given to her. Dr. Cyber, literally so obsessed with Diana´s beauty she wants her face, so she can plaster it to hers. Ares obsessed with the contradictions in Diana´s philosophy, and showing her those contradictions. Alkyone, some weird almost psychopathic obsession with Diana´s mother, and her wish Diana was her child. The list goes on. Again I think this maybe a theme unique to Diana´s rogues. I mean there is alot of obsession in Batman, but its a different type of obsession. Most Batman villains obsession comes from hate of the Batman or wanting to one up him. Diana´s rogues seem to have admiration, jealousy and ultimately different shades of perverted love for the character, resulting in obsession.

So what do you think, have I cracked it?

Are the themes I´ve mentioned wrong?

Maybe theres something I´m missing?

Let me know.

I mean...I literally...I actually couldn't have said better myself.

I got a question though, about script writing? where did you learn? how did you start? do you have a degree be it minor or major in writing? DM me so we can chat, i'd love to talk to you about actually writing comic scripts to send in to DC and since your the only person I know here that has writing a script it be nice to get some input.

Hey sure, would love to talk. Always like talking about writing. If you ever figure out how to send a script to DC tell me, as I now have a Superman Year 1 American Alien script, and a Batman Riddler script based on movie Zodiac.

Now Im writing a script about Alien who finds himself protecting two kids from the inner city.

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