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    Wonder Woman

    Character » Wonder Woman appears in 8082 issues.

    The Amazon princess, blessed with god-like super abilities, Wonder Woman is one of Earth's most powerful defenders of peace, justice, and equality and a member of the Justice League. She is considered an archetype for many heroines outside of comic book. Her initial origin depicted her as a clay baby brought to life by patron goddess Aphrodite, but in recent years she has been depicted as the daughter of Zeus and Amazon queen Hippolyta.

    Hatred and sexism still affects female characters.

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    agent41

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    My thread is to talk about how hateful and sexist some people can still be when it comes to female characters. Attacking the idea of a woman being capable of standing on equal terms with alpha males. These kind of people take it so far that they show such low morality codes, like wishing rape. Wonder Woman is a very easy target for being a very iconic female character. And when looking at certain comments, we can see how twisted society still is.

    Some complain abou taking on themes such as equality, empowering women and gender discrimination. Some of them saying none of that is relevant to society today. And i don't agree with that, specially when i see the way certain people talk about female characters that take on these topics. And of course men can suffer from discrimination too. But in this particular case, in this example. The issue is with women. If there is no sexism, how come we can still see comments like the following one. This is from a youtube video that talks about 3 times that Wonder Woman has fought batman. A youtube user called sir isaac de nigginsnoot took it so far, that in his comment he created and articulated a rape scenario around Wonder Woman. I can't quote everything because it a very detailed rape scenario. So i will only quote some parts and leave a link to the video so you can check the comment by yourselves.

    Sir Isaac De NigginsnootsHace 1 mes (editado)This has got to be the biggest Girl-Power-Bullcrap Story i have ever scene, what really happen was just the opposite........

    After they beat the snot out of her for being such a feminist c***. The real story right there!!!.

    That comment is just 1 month old. Here is the link.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k13POPJCY_g&t=17s

    When i read things like that. You can't tell me that sexism doesn't exist anymore. You can't tell me that nobody takes an issue with female empowerment themes.

    Discrimination affects men and women, it's a reality. It still happens.

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    deactivated-5a853424245e3

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    Attacking the idea of a woman being capable of standing on equal terms with alpha males

    I think there are men that believe "alpha males" exist, and they do attack the idea of strong women, but the entire idea in application to humans is ridiculous, which is why I think anyone pedaling that narrative seriously hasn't the foggiest idea what they're talking about.

    You can't tell me that nobody takes an issue with female empowerment themes.

    Of course a majority male demographic--often suffering from antisocial tendencies and cognitive dissonance--is going to have trouble with female empowerment.

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    agent41

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    @agent41 said:

    My thread is to talk about how hateful and sexist some people can still be when it comes to female characters. Attacking the idea of a woman being capable of standing on equal terms with alpha males. These kind of people take it so far that they show such low morality codes, like wishing rape. Wonder Woman is a very easy target for being a very iconic female character. And when looking at certain comments, we can see how twisted society still is.

    Some complain abou taking on themes such as equality, empowering women and gender discrimination. Some of them saying none of that is relevant to society today. And i don't agree with that, specially when i see the way certain people talk about female characters that take on these topics. And of course men can suffer from discrimination too. But in this particular case, in this example. The issue is with women. If there is no sexism, how come we can still see comments like the following one. This is from a youtube video that talks about 3 times that Wonder Woman has fought batman. A youtube user called sir isaac de nigginsnoot took it so far, that in his comment he created and articulated a rape scenario around Wonder Woman. I can't quote everything because it a very detailed rape scenario. So i will only quote some parts and leave a link to the video so you can check the comment by yourselves.

    Sir Isaac De NigginsnootsHace 1 mes (editado)This has got to be the biggest Girl-Power-Bullcrap Story i have ever scene, what really happen was just the opposite........

    After they beat the snot out of her for being such a feminist c***. The real story right there!!!.

    That comment is just 1 month old. Here is the link.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k13POPJCY_g&t=17s

    When i read things like that. You can't tell me that sexism doesn't exist anymore. You can't tell me that nobody takes an issue with female empowerment themes.

    Discrimination affects men and women, it's a reality. It still happens.

    i dont mind having stories about strong woman.

    I like Kill Bill, Alien, Terminator 2, Underworld, GitS (anime) for example.

    But I wont praised a women-lead story just because it past the Bechdel Test or Broke the Glass Ceiling or anything stupid like that nor will i call critics who criticize a female-leads movies as sexist, misogynist, bigot just because they dont like the character.

    Also i wouldnt make a drama out of a female characters who wears sexy costumes, portrayed merely as a love interest/damsel in distress, or had shaved their armpits...

    In short, i believe that having a personal preference in entertainment choices isnt wrong not politically incorrect nor should be a significant social issue that could instigate mass employment demands for people who had degrees in "gender study".

    For me its all about the artistic quality that matters

    With regards to Wonder Woman... i just find her character too campy and cheesy for my taste... she is interesting as a justice league member and her interaction with Sups and Batman are always fun to watch ... but as solo character she is pretty mediocre.

    The bold part. That's not WW's case. And the way you dress shouldn't determinate your worth. And you ar missing the point. AGAIN. Which is why you shoud stop chcking WW related stuff if she isn't your cup of tea. Did you come here because you felt that by making this thread, i was trying to suggest you aree somebody that approves rape themes just to hate on a fictional character?. Because i never said anything like that about you.

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    Thekillerklok

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    If you think you will ever clean up the youtube comment section, you are wrong.

    Good day to you.

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    agent41

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    If you think you will ever clean up the youtube comment section, you are wrong.

    Good day to you.

    That's not the point. That youtube comment was just to give a radical example.

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    agent41

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    #9  Edited By agent41

    @agent41:

    "Some complain abou taking on themes such as equality, empowering women and gender discrimination. Some of them saying none of that is relevant to society today"

    You know what i find ironic in this thread is that it is praising WW as kinda symbol of equality and anti gender discrimination...

    when canonically she belongs to one of the most sexist, most oppressive, and gender discriminating society in her fictional universe.

    And i find it funny that you would say things like that when you know nothing about the character outside trivial thing.

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    agent41

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    #10  Edited By agent41

    @cruelestashley said:

    Attacking the idea of a woman being capable of standing on equal terms with alpha males

    I think there are men that believe "alpha males" exist, and they do attack the idea of strong women, but the entire idea in application to humans is ridiculous, which is why I think anyone pedaling that narrative seriously hasn't the foggiest idea what they're talking about.

    You can't tell me that nobody takes an issue with female empowerment themes.

    Of course a majority male demographic--often suffering from antisocial tendencies and cognitive dissonance--is going to have trouble with female empowerment.

    I don't know why some people that don't know much about WW are so fast to judge and say she is some kind of monster. Just look at the commnts below from user mimisalome.

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    deactivated-5a853424245e3

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    @mimisalome said:

    @agent41:

    "Some complain abou taking on themes such as equality, empowering women and gender discrimination. Some of them saying none of that is relevant to society today"

    You know what i find ironic in this thread is that it is praising WW as kinda symbol of equality and anti gender discrimination...

    when canonically she belongs to one of the most sexist, most oppressive, and gender discriminating society in her fictional universe.

    Because someone's homeland defines who they are? Never minding the fact Diana has been exiled for standing up for what's right, or that she's swayed the majority opinion all on her own. This is also all notwithstanding the society's history, and how it's been interpreted over the years by various writers.

    But yeah, Diana is clearly intolerant and terrible.

    Sensation Comics Featuring Wonder Woman #3
    Sensation Comics Featuring Wonder Woman #3

    No Caption Provided

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    Thekillerklok

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    @agent41: did you just imply that a follow viner was Antisocial and suffering from cognitive dissonance simply because he pointed out his beliefs?

    Let me ask, how many peoples mind do you change via insulting them?

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    agent41

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    #15  Edited By agent41

    @agent41 said:
    @mimisalome said:

    @agent41:

    "Some complain abou taking on themes such as equality, empowering women and gender discrimination. Some of them saying none of that is relevant to society today"

    You know what i find ironic in this thread is that it is praising WW as kinda symbol of equality and anti gender discrimination...

    when canonically she belongs to one of the most sexist, most oppressive, and gender discriminating society in her fictional universe.

    And i find it funny that you would say things like that when you know nothing about the character outside trivial thing.

    I think i know enough to make opinions about her.

    Hardcore fans shouldnt have a monopoly in a dicussion.

    No you don't.

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    agent41

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    @agent41: did you just imply that a follow viner was Antisocial and suffering from cognitive dissonance simply because he pointed out his beliefs?

    Let me ask, how many peoples mind do you change via insulting them?

    No i didn't.

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    Thekillerklok

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    @agent41: Guess I'll have to take your word for it then.

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    deactivated-5a853424245e3

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    @mimisalome:

    I dont think she initially stands to what is "right"...

    Sensation Comics #1
    Sensation Comics #1
    No Caption Provided

    Scans disagree with this claim.

    she started out more like being curious to what exist outside their society...

    She absolutely was curious:

    No Caption Provided

    But she still fought for what was right:

    No Caption Provided

    She didnt necessarily think her society is gender discriminating and oppresive against males.

    Furthermore, Amazons are typically hostile to everyone. They nearly flayed Lois Lane because she was viewed as an intruder:

    Lois Lane #8
    Lois Lane #8

    Even at a time when men stepping foot on their island was a hazard, Superman was welcome:

    World's Finest #288
    World's Finest #288

    This is also notwithstanding how anachronistic you're being in regards to the Amazons' history and why they isolated themselves.

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    agent41

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    @agent41 said:
    @cruelestashley said:

    Attacking the idea of a woman being capable of standing on equal terms with alpha males

    I think there are men that believe "alpha males" exist, and they do attack the idea of strong women, but the entire idea in application to humans is ridiculous, which is why I think anyone pedaling that narrative seriously hasn't the foggiest idea what they're talking about.

    You can't tell me that nobody takes an issue with female empowerment themes.

    Of course a majority male demographic--often suffering from antisocial tendencies and cognitive dissonance--is going to have trouble with female empowerment.

    I know what you mean, just look at the commnts below from user mimisalome.

    Someone not liking Wonder Woman as character doesnt automatically means that person is having trouble with "Female empowerment".

    Thats like saying if you hate Batman you are misandrist, or if you hate Black Panther you are a racist.

    As i said a like a lot of fictions and films with females leads because they are well written characters in my opinion.

    You judge WW based on trivial things. Anyway. I'm not here to judge. You first responded to me in this thread, as i if had said you hate women or the concept of female empowerment. I didn't say that.

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    agent41

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    @cruelestashley:

    Im pretty sure thats not how things worked out when she first encountered Batman or Aquaman.

    But i kinda see the ultimate problem with the Wonder Woman character...

    She was written so many times by so many writers across numerous American cultural eras that you can practically make any argument about her and there will be a scan that you can cherry pick to support your case.

    Kinda reminds me why the character looks so dumb.

    Really?. WW was not writen as hostil towards men in Marston run, Perez run, Ruka run, Jimmenez run, Byrne run, Simone run, Azzarello run, Ruka again, among others. Once again you don't know what you are saying. And since you want to talk about changes. All characters have gone through some changes. batman and superman more than Wonder Woman for example.

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    daak1212

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    Boo women

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    HeroUp2112

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    #27  Edited By HeroUp2112

    Wow, relax folks. I don't think anyone is trying to push anyone else's buttons here.

    I will say one thing on the original topic.

    The idiot who posted that YouTube comment is an asshole, and would be an asshole regardless of what that person had in their pants. I'd bet money.

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    VenomousDragon

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    Attacking the idea of a woman being capable of standing on equal terms with alpha males

    I think there are men that believe "alpha males" exist, and they do attack the idea of strong women, but the entire idea in application to humans is ridiculous, which is why I think anyone pedaling that narrative seriously hasn't the foggiest idea what they're talking about.

    You can't tell me that nobody takes an issue with female empowerment themes.

    Of course a majority male demographic--often suffering from antisocial tendencies and cognitive dissonance--is going to have trouble with female empowerment.

    do you know what i find ridiculous? the fact that women seem to think they have the ability to make assertions about male behavior and social hierarchy, you dont, stop pretending you do, when the shoe is on the other foot and men make these kinds of assertions about women they are almost always called chauvinistic or sexist, keep to what you know and this is not something you can know. if i sound harsh i apologize but is something that needs to stop, it is not considered acceptable for me to do it to your gender and it should not be acceptable in the reverse.

    humans are animals and alpha males do exists it is simply something that is more complex than it is in other animals due to the more complex nature of human interactions and social order.

    Female empowerment is fine but should still be grounded in reality men and women are inherently different as we are a dimorphic species, the (western) world needs to accept this and stop clinging to the idea that women can do all things men can just as well as they can, they cannot and the same is true in reverse.

    that said im not sure why anyone would be upset about wonder woman being able to do this as she A has superpowers and B basically comes from a separate strain of humanity where women have a more dominant position, akin to something like spotted Hyenas where the female gender of that species is physically more powerful and socially more assertive and dominant, and no comparing them to hyenas is in no way an insult they are an incredibly fascinating species and dont deserve the negative stigma they have in many cultures but thats a different topic.

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    HeroUp2112

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    @cruelestashley said:

    Attacking the idea of a woman being capable of standing on equal terms with alpha males

    I think there are men that believe "alpha males" exist, and they do attack the idea of strong women, but the entire idea in application to humans is ridiculous, which is why I think anyone pedaling that narrative seriously hasn't the foggiest idea what they're talking about.

    You can't tell me that nobody takes an issue with female empowerment themes.

    Of course a majority male demographic--often suffering from antisocial tendencies and cognitive dissonance--is going to have trouble with female empowerment.

    do you know what i find ridiculous? the fact that women seem to think they have the ability to make assertions about male behavior and social hierarchy, you dont, stop pretending you do, when the shoe is on the other foot and men make these kinds of assertions about women they are almost always called chauvinistic or sexist, keep to what you know and this is not something you can know. if i sound harsh i apologize but is something that needs to stop, it is not considered acceptable for me to do it to your gender and it should not be acceptable in the reverse.

    humans are animals and alpha males do exists it is simply something that is more complex than it is in other animals due to the more complex nature of human interactions and social order.

    Female empowerment is fine but should still be grounded in reality men and women are inherently different as we are a dimorphic species, the (western) world needs to accept this and stop clinging to the idea that women can do all things men can just as well as they can, they cannot and the same is true in reverse.

    that said im not sure why anyone would be upset about wonder woman being able to do this as she A has superpowers and B basically comes from a separate strain of humanity where women have a more dominant position, akin to something like spotted Hyenas where the female gender of that species is physically more powerful and socially more assertive and dominant, and no comparing them to hyenas is in no way an insult they are an incredibly fascinating species and dont deserve the negative stigma they have in many cultures but thats a different topic.

    This is a nice and even handed post.

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    HeroUp2112

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    @mimisalome said:

    @agent41:

    "Some complain abou taking on themes such as equality, empowering women and gender discrimination. Some of them saying none of that is relevant to society today"

    You know what i find ironic in this thread is that it is praising WW as kinda symbol of equality and anti gender discrimination...

    when canonically she belongs to one of the most sexist, most oppressive, and gender discriminating society in her fictional universe.

    Because someone's homeland defines who they are? Never minding the fact Diana has been exiled for standing up for what's right, or that she's swayed the majority opinion all on her own. This is also all notwithstanding the society's history, and how it's been interpreted over the years by various writers.

    But yeah, Diana is clearly intolerant and terrible.

    Sensation Comics Featuring Wonder Woman #3
    Sensation Comics Featuring Wonder Woman #3
    No Caption Provided

    One question (I don't know, it may have changed after so many reboots/rebirths whatever) but isn't that lasso supposed to be unbreakable or something?

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    agent41

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    @venomousdragon:

    Personally i dont like Wonder Woman not because she is a woman who can do many stuff... I dont like her character because her character is campy, cheesy, and poorly written (based on my personal opinion).

    Kinda sad that some of her fans interpret that as an automatic case of misogyny.

    Nobody here said you were a misogyny. But you do move fast to judge her character without knowing all th facts, which i don't think is the way to go. But nobody said you are a misogyny.

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    agent41

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    deactivated-5a853424245e3

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    @mimisalome:

    Im pretty sure thats not how things worked out when she first encountered Batman or Aquaman.

    When she first encountered them?

    All-Star Squadron #3
    All-Star Squadron #3
    All-Star Squadron #60
    All-Star Squadron #60

    Didn't seem very eventful. In fact, Diana seems to have a pretty good track record with strangers:

    JLA #193/2
    JLA #193/2

    Others also vouch for her:

    All-Star Squadron #4
    All-Star Squadron #4

    You've moved the goalposts twice now, care for a third?

    She was written so many times by so many writers across numerous American cultural eras that you can practically make any argument about her and there will be a scan that you can cherry pick to support your case.

    Yet, all my examples are consistent with one another, the base formed from the creator's run. Moreover, this is the "ultimate problem" od Wonder Woman? Something that applies to the bulk of DC and Marvel characters? But please, by all means, prove I've cherry picked anything.

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    deactivated-5a853424245e3

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    @venomousdragon:

    do you know what i find ridiculous? the fact that women seem to think they have the ability to make assertions about male behavior and social hierarchy,

    Considering the myriad of disgusting comments males make within the comic book community online, my assessment is more than fair. The fact I am a woman has nothing to do with my ability to do so.

    you dont, stop pretending you do,

    I'm not pretending anything. Prove I'm "pretending."

    when the shoe is on the other foot and men make these kinds of assertions about women they are almost always called chauvinistic or sexist,

    Yes, when men make comments about what a woman should be in respect to gender roles/expression, it's extremely sexist/chauvinistic. This is not at all comparable to noticing how disgusting the male demographic, in respect to online comic book communities, acts toward women. This is not an equal street in the slightest.

    keep to what you know and this is not something you can know.

    Isn't it? I'm observing things and noticing them.

    if i sound harsh i apologize but is something that needs to stop,

    Much like how so many males see it fit to treat women online.

    it is not considered acceptable for me to do it to your gender and it should not be acceptable in the reverse.

    Your gender was never oppressed and is not continually discriminated against at the level women are.

    humans are animals and alpha males do exists it is simply something that is more complex than it is in other animals due to the more complex nature of human interactions and social order.

    Right.

    In Faye Flam's book The Score: The Science of the Male Sex Drive, Stanford Professor Robert Sapolsky shares his misgivings, stating that alpha males in other species operate differently than what is observed among humans. He notes that in dogs and wolves, for example, every member has a place in the hierarchy. And among baboons, he notes, the alpha male dominates over a group of subordinates who are equal in power to each other—until he is challenged and overthrown. In these species, the alphas exert more power. Humans are more complex, Sapolsky says. We belong to more than one social circle—a man who may be a custodian by day may be a superstar DJ by night. Flam also interviewed anthropologist Tim White, who said that alpha males likely ruled the common ape ancestor humans shared with chimps roughly 7 million years ago, but that they no longer exist among humans.

    Female empowerment is fine but should still be grounded in reality men and women are inherently different as we are a dimorphic species,

    Appeals to nature aren't arguments.

    the (western) world needs to accept this and stop clinging to the idea that women can do all things men can just as well as they can, they cannot and the same is true in reverse.

    Oh, pray tell, what is it we cannot do that you are oh so superior at?

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    @heroup2112 said:
    @cruelestashley said:
    @mimisalome said:

    @agent41:

    "Some complain abou taking on themes such as equality, empowering women and gender discrimination. Some of them saying none of that is relevant to society today"

    You know what i find ironic in this thread is that it is praising WW as kinda symbol of equality and anti gender discrimination...

    when canonically she belongs to one of the most sexist, most oppressive, and gender discriminating society in her fictional universe.

    Because someone's homeland defines who they are? Never minding the fact Diana has been exiled for standing up for what's right, or that she's swayed the majority opinion all on her own. This is also all notwithstanding the society's history, and how it's been interpreted over the years by various writers.

    But yeah, Diana is clearly intolerant and terrible.

    Sensation Comics Featuring Wonder Woman #3
    Sensation Comics Featuring Wonder Woman #3
    No Caption Provided

    One question (I don't know, it may have changed after so many reboots/rebirths whatever) but isn't that lasso supposed to be unbreakable or something?

    It can break, though it shouldn't in the way she did. An oversight most likely; although it's possible she thought of a truth and contested it.

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    agent41

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    deactivated-59dfd33ed3601

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    Of course and Wonder Woman is the main victim of it. The things I have seen written about her are disgusting. Then again this is the internet and it is expected. Everyone is bold and ruthless with their opinions behind a keyboard. Sexism will always exist in media as long as we have men that feel insecure and threatened.

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    Usha

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    I think there are men that believe "alpha males" exist

    To be fair tho,

    I am the only alpha male.......Just ask my mum.

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    TheOneWhoKnows

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    #40  Edited By TheOneWhoKnows

    @agent41: Much like with racism, when it comes to sexism there will always be people-no matter how many blatant, vivid, demonstrable overt and covert examples are displayed-who will immediately jump out to downplay it, distract from it, or altogether deny it exists.

    Now of course, there are people-including women-who will blame all their misfortunes on sexism (they will practically stub their toe, then say "See, that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for those m+$^&%=!&*in' men!")---but institutional and attitudinal sexism clearly exists, and it clearly trickles into everything, even in the comics world.

    The appalling youtube comment you copy and pasted is one of the more obvious examples, but I see it all the time in discussions right here on the 'Vine, especially in any Battle forum involving Wonder Woman and/or other females. Some of the nonsensical, hypocritical, and double standard "reasons" some give on why women-in many cases, a clearly combat skilled, powers, or especiallyphysically superior woman '"loses" (a woman being physically superior really seems to set some low to high level misogynists off) are just atrocious. Because society-rightly so-states this is bad, the elaborate lengths these kind will go to deny their tendencies-even as they are knee deep in illustrating it-is tedious.

    It's truly a sad, sad situation all around.

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    TheOneWhoKnows

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    #41  Edited By TheOneWhoKnows

    @somayareecesaid:

    "Of course and Wonder Woman is the main victim of it. The things I have seen written about her are disgusting. Then again this is the internet and it is expected. Everyone is bold and ruthless with their opinions behind a keyboard. Sexism will always exist in media as long as we have men that feel insecure and threatened."

    Indeed.

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    VenomousDragon

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    #42  Edited By VenomousDragon

    @venomousdragon:

    do you know what i find ridiculous? the fact that women seem to think they have the ability to make assertions about male behavior and social hierarchy,

    Considering the myriad of disgusting comments males make within the comic book community online, my assessment is more than fair. The fact I am a woman has nothing to do with my ability to do so.

    you dont, stop pretending you do,

    I'm not pretending anything. Prove I'm "pretending."

    when the shoe is on the other foot and men make these kinds of assertions about women they are almost always called chauvinistic or sexist,

    Yes, when men make comments about what a woman should be in respect to gender roles/expression, it's extremely sexist/chauvinistic. This is not at all comparable to noticing how disgusting the male demographic, in respect to online comic book communities, acts toward women. This is not an equal street in the slightest.

    keep to what you know and this is not something you can know.

    Isn't it? I'm observing things and noticing them.

    if i sound harsh i apologize but is something that needs to stop,

    Much like how so many males see it fit to treat women online.

    it is not considered acceptable for me to do it to your gender and it should not be acceptable in the reverse.

    Your gender was never oppressed and is not continually discriminated against at the level women are.

    humans are animals and alpha males do exists it is simply something that is more complex than it is in other animals due to the more complex nature of human interactions and social order.

    Right.

    In Faye Flam's book The Score: The Science of the Male Sex Drive, Stanford Professor Robert Sapolsky shares his misgivings, stating that alpha males in other species operate differently than what is observed among humans. He notes that in dogs and wolves, for example, every member has a place in the hierarchy. And among baboons, he notes, the alpha male dominates over a group of subordinates who are equal in power to each other—until he is challenged and overthrown. In these species, the alphas exert more power. Humans are more complex, Sapolsky says. We belong to more than one social circle—a man who may be a custodian by day may be a superstar DJ by night. Flam also interviewed anthropologist Tim White, who said that alpha males likely ruled the common ape ancestor humans shared with chimps roughly 7 million years ago, but that they no longer exist among humans.

    Female empowerment is fine but should still be grounded in reality men and women are inherently different as we are a dimorphic species,

    Appeals to nature aren't arguments.

    the (western) world needs to accept this and stop clinging to the idea that women can do all things men can just as well as they can, they cannot and the same is true in reverse.

    Oh, pray tell, what is it we cannot do that you are oh so superior at?

    im not appealing to nature, im stating facts humans are a dimorphic species, there can be no debate on the subject, which is likely why you attempted to simply hand wave it away.

    as for what males are oh so superior at, i point you to the Olympics, notice that the men and women do not compete together, there is a reason for that.

    the doctor is correct in his assertion, the Alpha male as it is seen in other species does not exists in the human species but likewise the alpha male as seen in lions does not exist in a wolf pack, each species is different and when someone says a man is a "alpha male" it does not mean the same thing as when we are using the same words to describe dominant males in other species and there is no way it could because as i said humans have a far more complicated social life than most if not all other animals that does not eliminate males who are highly predisposed to assert dominance over their peers, these are the alpha males of our species and i can tell you well they exist.

    as for the rest of your post the following quote tells me that you will simply dismiss my refutations solely because i am male as those of your ilk are often keen to do, which is unfortunate i was hoping you would have more substance to your arguments.

    Your gender was never oppressed and is not continually discriminated against at the level women are.

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    deactivated-5a853424245e3

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    @venomousdragon said:
    @cruelestashley said:

    @venomousdragon:

    do you know what i find ridiculous? the fact that women seem to think they have the ability to make assertions about male behavior and social hierarchy,

    Considering the myriad of disgusting comments males make within the comic book community online, my assessment is more than fair. The fact I am a woman has nothing to do with my ability to do so.

    you dont, stop pretending you do,

    I'm not pretending anything. Prove I'm "pretending."

    when the shoe is on the other foot and men make these kinds of assertions about women they are almost always called chauvinistic or sexist,

    Yes, when men make comments about what a woman should be in respect to gender roles/expression, it's extremely sexist/chauvinistic. This is not at all comparable to noticing how disgusting the male demographic, in respect to online comic book communities, acts toward women. This is not an equal street in the slightest.

    keep to what you know and this is not something you can know.

    Isn't it? I'm observing things and noticing them.

    if i sound harsh i apologize but is something that needs to stop,

    Much like how so many males see it fit to treat women online.

    it is not considered acceptable for me to do it to your gender and it should not be acceptable in the reverse.

    Your gender was never oppressed and is not continually discriminated against at the level women are.

    humans are animals and alpha males do exists it is simply something that is more complex than it is in other animals due to the more complex nature of human interactions and social order.

    Right.

    In Faye Flam's book The Score: The Science of the Male Sex Drive, Stanford Professor Robert Sapolsky shares his misgivings, stating that alpha males in other species operate differently than what is observed among humans. He notes that in dogs and wolves, for example, every member has a place in the hierarchy. And among baboons, he notes, the alpha male dominates over a group of subordinates who are equal in power to each other—until he is challenged and overthrown. In these species, the alphas exert more power. Humans are more complex, Sapolsky says. We belong to more than one social circle—a man who may be a custodian by day may be a superstar DJ by night. Flam also interviewed anthropologist Tim White, who said that alpha males likely ruled the common ape ancestor humans shared with chimps roughly 7 million years ago, but that they no longer exist among humans.

    Female empowerment is fine but should still be grounded in reality men and women are inherently different as we are a dimorphic species,

    Appeals to nature aren't arguments.

    the (western) world needs to accept this and stop clinging to the idea that women can do all things men can just as well as they can, they cannot and the same is true in reverse.

    Oh, pray tell, what is it we cannot do that you are oh so superior at?

    im not appealing to nature, im stating facts humans are a dimorphic species, there can be no debate on the subject, which is likely why you attempted to simply hand wave it away.

    as for what males are oh so superior at, i point you to the Olympics, notice that the men and women do not compete together, there is a reason for that.

    the doctor is correct in his assertion, the Alpha male as it is seen in other species does not exists in the human species but likewise the alpha male as seen in lions does not exist in a wolf pack, each species is different and when someone says a man is a "alpha male" it does not mean the same thing as when we are using the same words to describe dominant males in other species and there is no way it could because as i said humans have a far more complicated social life than most if not all other animals that does not eliminate males who are highly predisposed to assert dominance over their peers, these are the alpha males of our species and i can tell you well they exist.

    The two are not equal. There is observable, demonstrable evidence that a myriad of males treat women a certain way, a way that is both succinctly sexist and dehumanizing, when it comes to the internet--specifically comic book communities in this context. This is the nature of the two mediums meeting, as both tend to provide a degree of escapism, fantasy, what have you--inevitably breeding and cultivating antisocial behavior, which in turn ferments cognitive dissonance. It just so happens the majority demographic this pertains to is male, and apparently, that's a terrible thing to observe, because I'm a woman. That's not sexist, right?

    The problem derives from semantical conflation--I am referring to "alpha male" in the sense of how it is referred in respect to other species--because that's where its primary users adopted it from. Some people tend to associate the term with a trait of dominance, but that doesn't validate the term, and it comes across as disingenuous when you factor where it arrives from. Ultimately it's a matter of simplifying human life, perhaps to cope with reality, because it's too complex, too hard. We often invent models, models with predictive capabilities of reality, but this is not a model with predictive capabilities, it's a buzzword presenting itself whenever opportune, to assert oneself, or another, as superior. It serves no purpose beyond that.

    Men have not historically been discriminated against because of their gender in the way women have (how many matriarchies exist again?). It was only in the last century that women gained the right to vote, it was only in the past forty years that it's become socially acceptable for women to speak out against abuse, only in the past thirty that we've been able to climb the ranks and be what we want to be. Social equality has never been a thing in America, but we have, overall, slowly progressed in the right direction. We are at the best we have ever been, but social inequality still exists, and to act as though this is somehow equal is hilariously anachronistic, ignoring what women have struggled and suffered to achieve, because of how men have oppressed them over the millennia. I'm lucky enough that I live in a day and age, where I don't have to be oppressed, that I can stand up for myself on all fronts, inspiring others and helping them overcome their own gender-centered adversities.

    Sexual dimorphism, more like polymorphism, is not an excuse to view women as inferior, which is exactly what you're doing, using loaded language to supplement it. Sorry, this isn't for you to decide, and will never happen so long as strong minded women, such as myself, exist to combat these bad ideas. Yes, men and women have inherent differences, but these difference do not inhibit either in today's world. I also fail to see how athletic averages somehow indicate superiority, especially when they refer to an extremely niche group, where there a number of variables you do not account for (e.g. arbitrary restrictions, institutionalized sexism, socioeconomic factors).

    as for the rest of your post the following quote tells me that you will simply dismiss my refutations solely because i am male

    Baseless assumption. Rather ironic too, considering you have dismissed my views on the basis that I'm female.

    as those of your ilk are often keen to do, which is unfortunate i was hoping you would have more substance to your arguments.

    Oh please enlighten me--who are my ilk? Because what I'm seeing here is one big bowl of ad lapidem.

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    Aimless

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    Is it weird that in social media I see more people complaining about feminism than actual feminists?Cause that's what it feels like here

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    KingCrimson

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    @aimless: Such is life my friend!

    3rd wave feminism is slightly more... nuanced than 2nd WF and drastically more so than 1st WF - it's only natural to see less of it as we progress towards a more equal society.

    Though a lot of people, struggling to see exactly what it is modern feminists are fighting for, are under the impression that the male gender itself is now under attack from these feminists. As such, any time anybody opens their mouth about anything even pertaining to equality for women, equal pay etc. you have an entire slew of people harping on about how ridiculous 3rd wave feminism is.

    It's a vicious circle, IMO.

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    deactivated-599632ff76068

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    This thread is kinda sexist within itself.

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    Pokeysteve

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    Hatred and sexism still affects females.

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    agent41

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    @necronn- said:

    This thread is kinda sexist within itself.

    Why?.

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    agent41

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    @theonewhoknows: Sadly we haven't done enough progess with these kind of things.

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    VenomousDragon

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    @cruelestashley: your ilk are women incapable of having an actual thoughtful discussion on gender equaility because you have a chip on you shoulder, people who automatically assume that just because I do not subscribe to your ideas on gender equaility that I am against gender equality in general, you in your last statement alone accuse me of seeing women as inferior which is absolute hogwash, i believe they are different that does not mean I believe either gender is superior.

    I do not care to discuss your distate for people's behaviour on the internet or the laughable idea that women are particularly targeted on the internet, they are not as race,creed,colour, sexuality and religious orention all face similar levels of hostility.

    Humans are both polymorphic and dimorphic these aspects are not mutually exclusive.

    At any rate I have never denied people have been mean on the internet my main point is and always has been that you as a woman have no place in making assertions about the male condition just as men have no place doing the opposite.

    This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

    Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

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