Has Aquaman's Ascension led to Wonder Woman's downfall

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#51 Posted by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine: That would be awesome!!! But I don't think they have the guts to do it. Would be cool if they did an Atlantean wedding and showed Arthur and Mera starting a family before Manta suffocates their baby. Then Arthur gets serious.

It could be about politics. With Manta and Shin working together to reveal Atlantis which would lead to political issues Arthur has to deal with. They could do that arc in which Arthur had a confrontation with Supes (who was representing the US). It wouldn't be as awesome but it's more likely.

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#52 Edited by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@Arc_Conductor @scorpio_cassadine: Hmmm that's true. Tom has to die. Honestly I was surprised to find out Atlanna made through the first movie. Hehehe That makes Aquaman the only DCEU character with both parents alive. Bruce is an orphan (BVS), Clark let his father die (I liked that in MoS), Flash's mum is dead (I believe Alfred said it in JL), Cyborg's mum is dead too (might have been mentioned in JL) and Diana's father, Zeus, is implied to be dead in WW. Hehehehe it's about time one of them died.

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#53 Edited by Klaus (2040 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity said:

@geraldofvengerberg: Yea. I was talking about the description I read of that entire scene. I believe she jumps into a mall, slides a little girl to safety, lassos the robbers then runs in a street. It's practically nothing.

I saw the whole scene before WB took it down off Youtube. The guys she beat, she did it like they were nothing. And she didn't just run in the street. She ran through the streets at superspeed. Way faster than anything we saw her do previously. The way she was moving made me think she would have no problem seeing and moving along with Superman and Barry during that fight scene in JL. I heard a rumour that Wonder Woman is going to include a soft reboot for the DCEU, which changes the timeline, some powers and events that occurred in the DCEU.

One of the changes I heard of was of Wonder Womans powers. They had to make her much faster than she was previously shown to be due to the appearance of the Cheetah.

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#54 Edited by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@klaus: Whoa! That's very promising. That would be awesome. I heard the rumours about the reboot. However the rumour also said they rewrote certain parts of the script but if they had, I doubt they'd be done with production already. I don't want to get my hopes up only to be disappointed so I might wait for the first trailer. Thanks for the info though. Definitely made me more optimistic. Hopefully there'll be something at San Diego Comic con 2019.

Would you say she was comparable to Fiora (when she fought the army guys in Man of Steel) in terms of speed while running?

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#55 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (647 posts) - - Show Bio

Saw Aquaman, its everything that I wanted a Superhero movie to be. The CGI and Battle scenes were insane. Definitely deserved 1 billion! Well done James Wan

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#56 Posted by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Yup. I think he is one of the best directors to have made a superhero movies. The plot wasn't unnecessarily complicated, the fight scenes were amazing, the visuals were awesome and it really took Arthur to a whole new power level. It's everything I would have wanted in a WW movie. It made a lot of money internationally (especially in China) and is now the highest grossing DC movie ever made.

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#57 Posted by Archizooom (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

The 1 Billion + box office triumphs of Aquaman, Black Panther and Captain Marvel certainly put Wonder Woman’s success into perspective

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#58 Edited by Geraldofvengerberg (647 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom said:

The 1 Billion + box office triumphs of Aquaman, Black Panther and Captain Marvel certainly put Wonder Woman’s success into perspective

True, WW84 better make over 1 billion

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#59 Edited by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: I believe that Cap Marvel is such a huge success due to the power of the "Marvel machine". The movie was pretty good and it's clear Marvel cares about female empowerment and stuff. However the fact that the movie and main character were advertised as connected and important to the Infinity War/ Endgame movies has to be taken into account. Infinity War is one of the highest grossing movies ever made and Cap Marvel was said to be important to the overall storyline. Not to mention the post credits scene. Also she was advertised as the most powerful character Marvel has introduced in the MCU so curiosity was a huge factor.

As for Black Panther, I believe it was advertised as a major achievement for the black community. This led to things like famous figures like Kendrick buying out entire cinemas for people from low income black communities to go watch it. On top of that, Black Panther made his debut in Civil War (one of the most acclaimed comic book movies out there) while Wonder Woman was fighting an uphill battle in the DCEU.

I chose Aquaman as an ideal comparison because both characters had movies in the DCEU after a "low point". It was arguably worse for Arthur because he came after the lowest grossing DCEU movie and is often seen as the Hawkeye of the JL. Unlike Wonder Woman, Arthur didn't even have much of a SJW angle to help it.

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#60 Posted by Archizooom (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: Aquaman cost way more than Wonder Woman though, and Wan’s chinese heritage certainly didn’t hinder its performance in China, it made a whooping $290m in that country alone, $200m more than WW. I still think Wonder Woman had more heart than Aquaman, it’s actually grown on me the more I’ve watched it, just lacked the WOW factor that Aquaman had in spades

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#61 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (5218 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to ask, how the heck are they going to top AM1 in the sequel?

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#62 Edited by Supermanthor (21356 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_shazam0920 said:

I have to ask, how the heck are they going to top AM1 in the sequel?

never say never dude

miracles are happening to comic books movies since 2008

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#63 Posted by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: Yea. Aquaman was more of a grand spectacle (like infinity War) while WW was simpler and more grounded. Aquaman was grander, "more fun" and more action packed but I agree that WW has more heart.

I admit that I didn't take Wan's ethnicity into account. But I don't think it was that huge a factor. Another reason it did well in China was cause of the giant monsters/ creatures that are popular in Asia (or atleast used to be). Another is the fact that it's such a huge CGI spectacle with colourful scenes.

In general though, foreign audiences love flashy visuals and great fight scenes (I am one of them). That's why a lot of franchises still do well overseas despite being disliked by critics.

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#64 Posted by Archizooom (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: I like flashy visuals and a good pulse-racing action scene as well, tbh I only go to the cinema to watch blockbusters because it’s so expensive so I want lots of bang for the buck. It’s gotta have style AND substance, I hope WW84 has both in abundance

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#65 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (647 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: @kevinffinity:Ethincity is not that important. Venom also did Aquaman no in China. The main reason is WB and Sony tied up with Tencent which can do great marketing in China. They can bring audience from Rural and small towns to Theatres

Look at how crazy Rich asians did in China and that puts ethnicity is not really a factor in China

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#66 Edited by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: Yea. Substance is important. Even from a box office perspective since critics greatly influence people's opinions. But I think the first WW had enough so I trust Patty Jenkins on that front. She can atleast deliver something better than most. One of her movies even got Charlize Therone (apologies for the spelling) an Oscar.

I'm worried about the action and visuals because that's what Patty Jenkins lacks experience in. In the first movie, she had help but this one is mostly going to be her work since she's writing, screenwriting, producing and directing. Not to mention she had a limited amount of time to do all the above because she was also doing work for her show. The action in the first movie was decent but it didn't say "best fighter in DCU" and the CGI was particularly lacking. It also felt a little small in scale but that wasn't that big a problem.

I'm hoping for a grand event packed with mythology, high quality action and substance.

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#67 Posted by Archizooom (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: PJ will have a little bit more experience with VFX as well as a bigger budget this time around, they’ve also got plenty of time to refine it in post-production, even re-shoot some stuff if necessary so I’m reasonably confident about WW84. Obviously, the proof of the pudding is in the eating but I love everything I’m hearing so far, if anything I worry that I’ve pitched my expectations too high

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#68 Posted by Archizooom (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Tencent did an excellent job tricking millions of chinese people into watching Venom

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#69 Posted by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: I'm kind of in the opposite camp. I'm reluctant to watch it in the cinema despite being a huge fan of the character. I haven't heard a single thing I've liked from the fact that it's a period piece to the return of Steve Trevor to rumours that Patty Jenkins fired everyone that disagreed with her. I know some people consider those to be good things but we have different ideas of what the ideal WW movie is. My expectations are low but my interest in the character keeps me from completely giving up on the movie despite how badly I want to.

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#70 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (647 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: I'm kind of in the opposite camp. I'm reluctant to watch it in the cinema despite being a huge fan of the character. I haven't heard a single thing I've liked from the fact that it's a period piece to the return of Steve Trevor to rumours that Patty Jenkins fired everyone that disagreed with her. I know some people consider those to be good things but we have different ideas of what the ideal WW movie is. My expectations are low but my interest in the character keeps me from completely giving up on the movie despite how badly I want to.

Me too!

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#71 Posted by Archizooom (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: As far as I’m aware, PJ just brought in a new screenwriter to co-write the script with her and Geoff Johns, nothing wrong with that

I understand your reservations about the movie taking place in the past but from what I've seen, it looks like they’re breaking canon, Wonder Woman is out in the open fighting bad guys in broad daylight which makes me very happy, we might even see her fly! My guess is that Maxwell Lord does a world-wide mind wipe at the end thus erasing the memory of Wonder Woman from the public mind

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#72 Posted by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: From what I heard, Geoff Johns is the one that came up with the story and presented it to Jenkins even before the first WW was considered a success. So it wasn't Patty's decision. And from what I've heard, she had some major disagreements with him aswell. A friend once told me if you think everyone else has a problem then chances are you have the problem. She brought on Dave but he doesn't have much power.

Nothing you said sounds exciting tbh and it's actually a little depressing. If anything, what you said fits perfectly into DCEU canon. Diana flying is great but tbh it's not that big a deal. I'd prefer she got faster, stronger and more durable (cause she's really lacking in those departments). I'd also like to see her show off her skill. Hopefully the fight choreography will be better.

Examples of things that would make me feel a little better

- Someone more experienced and has a good reputation (like Miller) is helping Patty direct the fight scenes.

- Diana is going to get god mode/ Witch mode/ god of war mode or a power up that justifies her sad performance in JL (to show she was holding back)

- There's going to be a big fight with Urzkataga/ Circe/ another powerful villain that's going to reset DC continuity or atleast Diana's abilities.

- Steve is going to die after the movie and isn't likely to return

It's fine for us to have different directions in which we'd like to see the movie go. But that's just my opinion. I'm still hoping that the movie will be atleast decent.

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#73 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Obviously not, Agent41 can tell you about it.

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#74 Posted by Archizooom (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: According to Chris Pine, when PJ approached him for the role, she already had a story for the sequel in mind. It may have been Geoff Johns who come up with the skeleton of the story but he and PJ developed the script together

Also for what it’s worth, she said Wonder Woman would be “at the height of her power” in WW84 and if Diana flies in the movie, that means one of two things: either PJ is ignoring Justice League completely or something has happened to Diana

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#75 Posted by agent41 (15859 posts) - - Show Bio

The 1 Billion + box office triumphs of Aquaman, Black Panther and Captain Marvel certainly put Wonder Woman’s success into perspective

It means those movies made more money. It doesn't make Wonder Woman less of a hit.

What AQ and BP did prove, is that CGI is important for the WOW factor. The spectacle side of Comic Book films. That is what WW84 needs to improve compared to the first film. Because as far as the direction, the chemistry between actors. The first one did great in those areas. It had more heart than cm or AQ IMO.

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#76 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (647 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: @kevinffinity: Bringing Steve Trevor back, only to kill him of is a dick move. Chris Pine is very talented and I hope he and Diana get good ending instead of repeating WW.

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#77 Edited by Geraldofvengerberg (647 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:
@archizooom said:

The 1 Billion + box office triumphs of Aquaman, Black Panther and Captain Marvel certainly put Wonder Woman’s success into perspective

It means those movies made more money. It doesn't make Wonder Woman less of a hit.

What AQ and BP did prove, is that CGI is important for the WOW factor. The spectacle side of Comic Book films. That is what WW84 needs to improve compared to the first film. Because as far as the direction, the chemistry between actors. The first one did great in those areas. It had more heart than cm or AQ IMO.

Aquaman unapologetically embraced its ridiculous universe unlike Wonder Woman. It has more heart and comic book accuracy than WW.

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#78 Edited by agent41 (15859 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg said:
@agent41 said:
@archizooom said:

The 1 Billion + box office triumphs of Aquaman, Black Panther and Captain Marvel certainly put Wonder Woman’s success into perspective

It means those movies made more money. It doesn't make Wonder Woman less of a hit.

What AQ and BP did prove, is that CGI is important for the WOW factor. The spectacle side of Comic Book films. That is what WW84 needs to improve compared to the first film. Because as far as the direction, the chemistry between actors. The first one did great in those areas. It had more heart than cm or AQ IMO.

Aquaman unapologetically embraced its ridiculous universe unlike Wonder Woman. It has more heart and comic book accuracy than WW.

AQ universe is not supposed to be a ridiculous comedy world. So no i don't see it having more heart. It had better visuals and action. Not more heart.

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#79 Posted by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: "The height of her power" thing was also a little disappointing when I read it considering it's a period piece and all.

@geraldofvengerberg: We all have different things we'd like to see. Chris is great but I was happy with Steve dying in the first movie and I'm really disappointed to see him return. But I guess I'd be surprised if Patty didn't bring him back.

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#80 Posted by agent41 (15859 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: "The height of her power" thing was also a little disappointing when I read it considering it's a period piece and all.

@geraldofvengerberg: We all have different things we'd like to see. Chris is great but I was happy with Steve dying in the first movie and I'm really disappointed to see him return. But I guess I'd be surprised if Patty didn't bring him back.

The time period where it takes place shouldn't be an issue when it comes to delivering great action. We will have to wait and see how things turn out.

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#81 Posted by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: My point is that no matter what she does, she'll always be under Supes' shadow. Justice League hamstrung her in that regard. WW being weaker than Supes' isn't a problem, but the difference in Justice league was ridiculos. One of the reasons AQ was amazing is cause AQ got alot more powerful. WW is my fav member of the JL (with the exception of MM) but as it stands, she's the least useful in the DCEU JL (I don't want to start an argument just saying. I'll let you know if I see anything that proves me wrong)

I presented a list of the only things that I would consider as "good news".

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#82 Posted by agent41 (15859 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: My point is that no matter what she does, she'll always be under Supes' shadow. Justice League hamstrung her in that regard. WW being weaker than Supes' isn't a problem, but the difference in Justice league was ridiculos. One of the reasons AQ was amazing is cause AQ got alot more powerful. WW is my fav member of the JL (with the exception of MM) but as it stands, she's the least useful in the DCEU JL (I don't want to start an argument just saying. I'll let you know if I see anything that proves me wrong)

I presented a list of the only things that I would consider as "good news".

least useful? I don't see it.

AQ himself is shown far below Superman in the jl movie. And he is not above Wonder Woman in power either. Also what is this notion that WW can't get more powerful? We are far from being at the last chapter of her jurnery in the DCEU. So we should wait and see before we start to get so negative about the results of things we haven't even seen yet.

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#83 Edited by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I simply said that there was nothing good I'd heard about the movie and that the fact that it's a period piece was disappointing.

I'm not saying AQ is on the same power level as Supes. Power and usefulness are different things. For example...Batman isn't all that powerful but he is the best strategist on the team. From a logical standpoint she doesn't have a clear role. I'm just explaining why it's important to me that she gets.....something good.

The next WW movie may not be her last (or it might) but that isn't really an excuse. I'm not being negative just realistic.

I'm not saying the movie is going to be bad or good. I'm saying that everything I've heard, seen and read hasn't been uplifting. Ofcourse we have to wait and see but in this moment, it's not looking great. Just my opinion.

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#84 Posted by agent41 (15859 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: I just think it doesn't make sense to assume much at this early stage. I am not going to hold my breath expecting the best of the world because of DCEU trackrecord. But i don't want to be pesimist either. I think we still have a chance to have a good WW franchise that will show more of her power.

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#85 Posted by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: That's perfectly fine. We both want the movie to be the best it can be (or atleast decent).

I was just saying that I have not heard anything that's exciting or atleast not a little depressing. And that as of this moment, I'm not sure I'll consider it worth watching in the cinema. But really really hope it's amazing.

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#86 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (647 posts) - - Show Bio

Shazam is flopping internationaly inspire of being a good movie because international audience need CGI in their Superhero movies

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#87 Posted by agent41 (15859 posts) - - Show Bio

Shazam is flopping internationaly inspire of being a good movie because international audience need CGI in their Superhero movies

That is not the only factor.

But we all agree that we want better CGI for Wonder Woman 1984.

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#88 Posted by Kevinffinity (190 posts) - - Show Bio

I played the Shazam trailer for my fam and they thought it was a joke.

I'm mostly worried about the fight scenes and Diana's power level but yea, CGI is important. The CGI in the 3rd act is arguably the most criticised aspect of the first movie. But they have a lot of post production time so it should be good enough atleast.

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