Has Aquaman's Ascension led to Wonder Woman's downfall

  • 88 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for kevinffinity
#1 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

Now that the Aquaman movie is out and doing extremely well (could be the first DCEU movie to make over a billion), it's fair to assume that he is going to play a bigger role in the larger DC universe. However could this be at the expense of Wonder Woman?

For the most part, wonder woman has 2 major things going for her (she is a symbol of female empowerment and DC's greatest warrior). Wonder Woman is considered to be a character that combines near Superman level power with Batman level skill and thus the greatest warrior. In the New 52 however, Aquaman's power levels went up in comparison to other characters (he was almost Diana's equal). It goes without saying that this kind of dilutes Wonder woman's status.

Note: I like Aquaman nearly as much as I like Wonder Woman. I like both Characters because they have a good balance of skill and power. It's just that Aquaman has a lot more going for him outside his combat capabilities while Wonder woman is reliant on being the ultimate Warrior.

Avatar image for arc_conductor
#2 Edited by Arc_Conductor (262 posts) - - Show Bio

Kevinffinity marked this as the best answer

@kevinffinity: @scorpio_cassadine: Aquaman and Mera having a baby in the movies would be nice, but if I was going to put money on it, Tom Curry is not long for the world and that lighthouse is going to be burned to the ground by Manta and (hopefully) N.E.M.O

Avatar image for agent41
#3 Posted by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

Now that the Aquaman movie is out and doing extremely well (could be the first DCEU movie to make over a billion), it's fair to assume that he is going to play a bigger role in the larger DC universe. However could this be at the expense of Wonder Woman?

For the most part, wonder woman has 2 major things going for her (she is a symbol of female empowerment and DC's greatest warrior). Wonder Woman is considered to be a character that combines near Superman level power with Batman level skill and thus the greatest warrior. In the New 52 however, Aquaman's power levels went up in comparison to other characters (he was almost Diana's equal). It goes without saying that this kind of dilutes Wonder woman's status.

Note: I like Aquaman nearly as much as I like Wonder Woman. I like both Characters because they have a good balance of skill and power. It's just that Aquaman has a lot more going for him outside his combat capabilities while Wonder woman is reliant on being the ultimate Warrior.

Isn't it too soon to say it will gross a billion?

If we are talking about potential. There is far more to WW than being a great warrior. And DC hasn't even started to truly capitalize on that potential. DC and WB have ignored everybody not named batman for a long time. When man of steel didn't do as well as they expected. They blamed superman and ran to batman again. Wonder Woman film surpassed all the expectations and she is getting a sequele. She is doing just fine. In terms of the DCEU, is batman and superman the ones that are kinda lost without a clear direction.

Avatar image for marvelanddcfan24
#4 Posted by MarvelandDCfan24 (7665 posts) - - Show Bio

No it has zero barring on Wonder Woman

Avatar image for agent41
#5 Posted by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

No it has zero barring on Wonder Woman

Let's not forget that before movies like AQ and Wonder Woman did great. DC and WB didn't have much hope in any character that wasn't batman, not even Superman. It is a good thing that aq and WW have proven their potential with their successful movies. And comics are a different world compared to movies. Different demographics. Thor has had many successful movies, yet in the comics right now they have nerfed him and made him a punching bag. I hate to see things like this happen. But i learned the hard way, that a character can be very successful in movies, but that doesn't necessarily mean a better treatment for the character in the comics.

Avatar image for deactivated-5c19671744860
#6 Posted by deactivated-5c19671744860 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

If anything it would help her out.

Avatar image for outside_85
#7 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do people think superheromovies are a zero sum game, where one can only have success at the expense of someone else? Like the DCEU is not defeated or invalidated just because the MCU makes more money. Same is true here, Aquaman's success as a movie does not diminish Wonder Woman in status or potential... especially not when Aquaman does not venture into the same waters that Diana does.

What I will say for Aquaman, it was more 'superheroic' than Wonder Woman when it came to depicting the characters power, Diana was a lot more restrained as is natural when she mostly just fought normal people. While Aquaman fights a group of pirates and then only fights Atlanteans... he sort of did the reverse in terms of story to Diana.

Avatar image for archizooom
#8 Posted by Archizooom (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

It's worth mentioning that Aquaman was a lot more expensive than Wonder Woman and it looks it, no way did Wonder Woman cost 150M or anywhere near that. And I believe Wan's malaysian-chinese heritage played a role in the stunning success of Aquaman in China, plus the Chinese like a good high-production-value CGI extravaganza

Avatar image for scorpio_cassadine
#9 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm seeing Aquaman tomorrow so I'm not reading this thread yet. I am reading the Aquaman miniseries from the 80's with him wearing the camouflage costume right now though and I will say his mythos are better. He has so much more to draw on because the history of Atlantis is so vast. I thought I knew all there was to know from owning the complete Peter David series and a few New 52 issues, but I had hardly scratched the surface. The Atlantis Chronicles are next.

All that said Wonder Woman is more popular and hasn't been cancelled. Aquaman has been rebooted over and over again.

Avatar image for scorpio_cassadine
#10 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh my God! Aquaman blew Wonder Woman out the water in first 10 minutes! Maaaaan visually that shit was beyond anything DC has ever made before. Eye candy doesn't begin to describe it. And the fights! Better than WW, MoS, JL and BvS! It had laughs, action, heart, good villains and a great love story. It was comic book accurate down to Topo the octopus playing the drums. People stood up and applauded when it was over. Amazing!

The only thing wrong was we left the theater wanting seafood and it was too late to get it.

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#11 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

You all (or atleast most of you) misunderstood/ didn't read what I wrote. Please re-read. I think most of the responses are simply to the title and nothing else.

Avatar image for hyiena
#12 Posted by hyiena (5366 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think it's making over a billion.

Avatar image for agent41
#13 Posted by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

You all (or atleast most of you) misunderstood/ didn't read what I wrote. Please re-read. I think most of the responses are simply to the title and nothing else.

You said he has more to offer (i don't agree) and that his success will put her down. Wonder Woman already has her own success and a sequele coming out. There is no reason to assume that both can't coexist.

Avatar image for scorpio_cassadine
#14 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Nah, there's no way Patty Jenkins' heavy on dialogue/light on action approach can compete with ANYTHING in Aquaman. It's the DCEU's lead franchise now. She got lucky the first time around, lightning won"t strike twice. I'm pissed because DC ran away from WW like she was an embarassment and changed everything they could about her. Meanwhile Aquaman took an octopuss playing a drumset and made it fit. While they flat out refused to give WW fans comic book accuracy for their favorite character. It sucks!

Avatar image for ready_4_madness
#15 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17099 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman doesn’t have to make a billion to perform well, it’s gonna do be then it was expected to regardless. It’s a great film, period. And all of that will benefit WW, they fall under the same brand.

Avatar image for outside_85
#16 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Nah, there's no way Patty Jenkins' heavy on dialogue/light on action approach can compete with ANYTHING in Aquaman. It's the DCEU's lead franchise now. She got lucky the first time around, lightning won"t strike twice. I'm pissed because DC ran away from WW like she was an embarassment and changed everything they could about her. Meanwhile Aquaman took an octopuss playing a drumset and made it fit. While they flat out refused to give WW fans comic book accuracy for their favorite character. It sucks!

Been drinking the Marvel Kool Aid have we?

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for scorpio_cassadine
#17 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: I couldn't give a damn about Marvel, Aquaman was better than their movies too.

Avatar image for agent41
#18 Posted by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Nah, there's no way Patty Jenkins' heavy on dialogue/light on action approach can compete with ANYTHING in Aquaman. It's the DCEU's lead franchise now. She got lucky the first time around, lightning won"t strike twice. I'm pissed because DC ran away from WW like she was an embarassment and changed everything they could about her. Meanwhile Aquaman took an octopuss playing a drumset and made it fit. While they flat out refused to give WW fans comic book accuracy for their favorite character. It sucks!

Well WW 2017 was accurate in many ways to different comic material specially New 52. I think it could have been better. But it is a solid film regardless. I'm expecting more development and action for WW84. I see no reason why the film can't be successful.

Avatar image for scorpio_cassadine
#19 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Wonder Woman was never in WW1. Where was the contest? Why doesn't she fly? Why is she nerfed? Why are all the gods long dead? What happened to their blessings? Where was Anazon tech? Where was the Invisible Jet? What about the kangas, or ANY mythological beasts for that matter? Why the stealing? Why can you get to Themyscira by boat and casually row your way back to Man's World? Where was the Wonder? It wasn't accurate AT ALL.

Avatar image for agent41
#20 Edited by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:

@agent41: Wonder Woman was never in WW1. Where was the contest? Why doesn't she fly? Why is she nerfed? Why are all the gods long dead? What happened to their blessings? Where was Anazon tech? Where was the Invisible Jet? What about the kangas, or ANY mythological beasts for that matter? Why the stealing? Why can you get to Themyscira by boat and casually row your way back to Man's World? Where was the Wonder? It wasn't accurate AT ALL.

I didn't say it was all accurate. Many parts were taken from different comic books. She is an amazon princess. She didn't have blessings, because she is Zeus daughter. Taken from New 52 origin. She didn't fly. Like many versions. Didn't use the jet like many versions. She was nerfed like all heros in live action. We can't change the first movie. But a lot can be made in a franchise. There is still room to see mythological beasts and the invisible jet in future movies. The Gods can always comeback.

Avatar image for scorpio_cassadine
#21 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: It's NOT Wonder Woman, not really, not in a way that's satisfying for me. How many times do I have to go into this? Hell with Aquaman they frosted Momoa's tips to be blonde and stuck a red wig on Amber Heard's head so she looked like Mera. Gal Gadot does not look like Wonder Woman. They dived deep in Aquaman lore you could ignore so as not to anchor down the action. We got a quickie oil paint summary that was completely inauthentic and inaccurate and an incomprehensible third act cgi shitstorm. What's worse is Wonder Woman 1984 has numerous cracks already visible before production even ceases. It's pushed back too far. The setting is suspect. The plot is convoluted and destined to disappoint. In addition it's gravely miscast. Why hire Kristen Wiig if you don't want her to be funny? She's playing a vicious cat lady, you know she's going over the top.

Avatar image for agent41
#22 Edited by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:

@agent41: It's NOT Wonder Woman, not really, not in a way that's satisfying for me. How many times do I have to go into this? Hell with Aquaman they frosted Momoa's tips to be blonde and stuck a red wig on Amber Heard's head so she looked like Mera. Gal Gadot does not look like Wonder Woman. They dived deep in Aquaman lore you could ignore so as not to anchor down the action. We got a quickie oil paint summary that was completely inauthentic and inaccurate and an incomprehensible third act cgi shitstorm. What's worse is Wonder Woman 1984 has numerous cracks already visible before production even ceases. It's pushed back too far. The setting is suspect. The plot is convoluted and destined to disappoint. In addition it's gravely miscast. Why hire Kristen Wiig if you don't want her to be funny? She's playing a vicious cat lady, you know she's going over the top.

I know it was not satisfying for you. But do you see what has been happening in the main material aka the comics even before New 52? DC hasn't been puting her in a pedastal or anything like that for decades. They allow writers to reimagine her origin, powers, cast etc all the time. They nerf her in the comics too. What did you expect to happen in her first movie? If they don't value her that much in the comics and gave it a more limited budget, because they thought it would fail based on previous DCEU movies. Even aquaman has had more events centered around him in the comics this decade than WW. In the first film, Patty did the best she could with what she had. The only thing i can do, is hope her verse continues to be developed in future films. And we get to see more wonderful things in Wonder Woman. At least that is a big possibility if her next film does well.

As for Kristin Wiiig. She can act outside of comedy roles. So her casting is not a problem.

Avatar image for geraldofvengerberg
#23 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (638 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: It's NOT Wonder Woman, not really, not in a way that's satisfying for me. How many times do I have to go into this? Hell with Aquaman they frosted Momoa's tips to be blonde and stuck a red wig on Amber Heard's head so she looked like Mera. Gal Gadot does not look like Wonder Woman. They dived deep in Aquaman lore you could ignore so as not to anchor down the action. We got a quickie oil paint summary that was completely inauthentic and inaccurate and an incomprehensible third act cgi shitstorm. What's worse is Wonder Woman 1984 has numerous cracks already visible before production even ceases. It's pushed back too far. The setting is suspect. The plot is convoluted and destined to disappoint. In addition it's gravely miscast. Why hire Kristen Wiig if you don't want her to be funny? She's playing a vicious cat lady, you know she's going over the top.

Kristen Wiig could pull off a Health Ledger if directed properly but she could also be pathetic like the cartoonish villains in the first movie which seems more likely. Comedic actors has done really creepy villainous roles like Robin Williams in one hour photo or Micheal Keaton as Batman and Vulture.

Avatar image for scorpio_cassadine
#24 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:

@agent41: It's NOT Wonder Woman, not really, not in a way that's satisfying for me. How many times do I have to go into this? Hell with Aquaman they frosted Momoa's tips to be blonde and stuck a red wig on Amber Heard's head so she looked like Mera. Gal Gadot does not look like Wonder Woman. They dived deep in Aquaman lore you could ignore so as not to anchor down the action. We got a quickie oil paint summary that was completely inauthentic and inaccurate and an incomprehensible third act cgi shitstorm. What's worse is Wonder Woman 1984 has numerous cracks already visible before production even ceases. It's pushed back too far. The setting is suspect. The plot is convoluted and destined to disappoint. In addition it's gravely miscast. Why hire Kristen Wiig if you don't want her to be funny? She's playing a vicious cat lady, you know she's going over the top.

Kristen Wiig could pull off a Health Ledger if directed properly but she could also be pathetic like the cartoonish villains in the first movie which seems more likely. Comedic actors has done really creepy villainous roles like Robin Williams in one hour photo or Micheal Keaton as Batman and Vulture.

Past is prologue, she'll probably have all he depth Doctor Poison.

Avatar image for geraldofvengerberg
#25 Edited by Geraldofvengerberg (638 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:
@geraldofvengerberg said:
@scorpio_cassadine said:

@agent41: It's NOT Wonder Woman, not really, not in a way that's satisfying for me. How many times do I have to go into this? Hell with Aquaman they frosted Momoa's tips to be blonde and stuck a red wig on Amber Heard's head so she looked like Mera. Gal Gadot does not look like Wonder Woman. They dived deep in Aquaman lore you could ignore so as not to anchor down the action. We got a quickie oil paint summary that was completely inauthentic and inaccurate and an incomprehensible third act cgi shitstorm. What's worse is Wonder Woman 1984 has numerous cracks already visible before production even ceases. It's pushed back too far. The setting is suspect. The plot is convoluted and destined to disappoint. In addition it's gravely miscast. Why hire Kristen Wiig if you don't want her to be funny? She's playing a vicious cat lady, you know she's going over the top.

Kristen Wiig could pull off a Health Ledger if directed properly but she could also be pathetic like the cartoonish villains in the first movie which seems more likely. Comedic actors has done really creepy villainous roles like Robin Williams in one hour photo or Micheal Keaton as Batman and Vulture.

Past is prologue, she'll probably have all he depth Doctor Poison.

The first Wonder Woman was pretty much controlled by Zach Synder and DC. They forced Patty to direct a movie where they had already cast the actress and chosen the rom-com script with a low budget

WW84 is where we will see what Patty's vision of WW is with proper budget and whether it is good or mediocre.

Avatar image for agent41
#26 Posted by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:
@geraldofvengerberg said:
@scorpio_cassadine said:

@agent41: It's NOT Wonder Woman, not really, not in a way that's satisfying for me. How many times do I have to go into this? Hell with Aquaman they frosted Momoa's tips to be blonde and stuck a red wig on Amber Heard's head so she looked like Mera. Gal Gadot does not look like Wonder Woman. They dived deep in Aquaman lore you could ignore so as not to anchor down the action. We got a quickie oil paint summary that was completely inauthentic and inaccurate and an incomprehensible third act cgi shitstorm. What's worse is Wonder Woman 1984 has numerous cracks already visible before production even ceases. It's pushed back too far. The setting is suspect. The plot is convoluted and destined to disappoint. In addition it's gravely miscast. Why hire Kristen Wiig if you don't want her to be funny? She's playing a vicious cat lady, you know she's going over the top.

Kristen Wiig could pull off a Health Ledger if directed properly but she could also be pathetic like the cartoonish villains in the first movie which seems more likely. Comedic actors has done really creepy villainous roles like Robin Williams in one hour photo or Micheal Keaton as Batman and Vulture.

Past is prologue, she'll probably have all he depth Doctor Poison.

The first Wonder Woman was pretty much controlled by Zach Synder and DC. They forced Patty to direct a movie where they had already cast the actress and chosen the rom-com script with a low budget

WW84 is where we will see what Patty's vision of WW is with proper budget and whether it is good or mediocre.

Don't forget that Patty said, she would have never thought of Gal as an option for WW. Although i think she did a good job playing WW, and Patty liked her too. She also wants to play homage to some classic aspects of WW, and wants a more mature and powerful WW in the sequele. We will see if now she has the power to make all of that happen.

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#27 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Yea, you definitely misunderstood. My point wasn't that they couldn't both be successful but that there's a possibility that one's success could have an impact on the other.

Let me try again. Aquaman is DC's premiere Aquatic character. He offers a lot especially in terms of visuals as can be seen in his solo movies. Wonder Woman is a symbol of female empowerment and a DC's premiere Warrior. Aquaman's success has already led to people asking for WW vs AQ in some form. In the DCEU, WW is nearly AQ level so outside of the female empowerment pitch, there'd be little left. Ofcourse, WW has Greek mythology (Olympus, tartarus etc) but Patty probably won't delve into that stuff. Patty isn't big on action as well and isn't that good at directing it either. You might argue we shouldn't judge her for WW 2017 but she was the director and thus she's the one most liable.

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#28 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Honestly, the most "Zack Snyderish" things in the first WW were the death of the gods (which I hated), the Warehouse fight scene (which I liked) and the combat based culture of Themyscira ( I also liked). I'm pretty sure Zack wasn't the one that emphasised the romantic elements. If that was the case, I'm pretty sure Patty wouldn't be going out of her way to bring Steve back from the dead in 1984.

Yes, I understand that we can not solely blame her for the first movies faults nor should we judge a movie before seeing it (I can also assume a lot of the problems were due to the fact that this was Patty's first blockbuster). It's just that there aren't alot of reasons to be hopeful.

I have read and watched a lot of Patty's interviews and she's emphasised Diana's relationships over her combat capabilities. She seems to be mostly interested in writing a love story with some fantasy elements as opposed to an action fantasy epic with some romantic aspects.

I personally wouldn't say that "she did the best with what she had" but what she did was decent I guess. The first movie was good but could have been a lot better. Wonder Woman doesn't need to fly or come from a Technologically advanced society or even be all that powerful. She does however need to have more (and better) fight scenes, better CGI and power-set that's clearly explained.

I'm not saying 1984 is destined to be bad but things aren't looking good. I am hoping for some good fight choreography in the fight between Barbara and Diana (on the level of the highway fight between Steve and Bucky in Winter Soldier). I'm also hoping we'll get to see Hades and the underworld (assuming that's how she gets back Steve) as well as some mythological beasts. Because these are some of the things that make Diana unique from other leaguers.

Aquaman is a good example of what a director can do. The fights, the VFX and even the humour were a lot better. The DCEU version of Arthur isn't all that comics accurate but he is an interesting character and gives you a lot of reasons to call him "your fav character".

Avatar image for agent41
#29 Edited by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity said:

@agent41: Yea, you definitely misunderstood. My point wasn't that they couldn't both be successful but that there's a possibility that one's success could have an impact on the other.

Let me try again. Aquaman is DC's premiere Aquatic character. He offers a lot especially in terms of visuals as can be seen in his solo movies. Wonder Woman is a symbol of female empowerment and a DC's premiere Warrior. Aquaman's success has already led to people asking for WW vs AQ in some form. In the DCEU, WW is nearly AQ level so outside of the female empowerment pitch, there'd be little left. Ofcourse, WW has Greek mythology (Olympus, tartarus etc) but Patty probably won't delve into that stuff. Patty isn't big on action as well and isn't that good at directing it either. You might argue we shouldn't judge her for WW 2017 but she was the director and thus she's the one most liable.

There have been fights betweeen them in the comics already. Overall Wonder Woman remains the more popullar, iconic and influential character of the 2. But i'm glad aq has done well with his movie.

Wonder Woman has everything in her verse to be visually amazing as well. In terms of themes. She has racism, homosexuality, equal rights, sexual liberation, war, peace, truth, hatred, etc to talk about. Her character and verse is very versatil and full of potential. I still think WW 2017 has better direction, dialogues, better character portrayal and chemistry between the cast. In the first movie, Patty did what she could with what she was given. The actress, the script, the plot, the budget, etc were all established before the time she was hired. In the next film she will have more freedom. I see no reason why they can't continue to develop her verse and power if this turns into a franchise. I see many reason to call WW a fav character too.

Avatar image for geraldofvengerberg
#30 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (638 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: WW and Cheetah need some over the top super-speed fight scenes like in Anime not some super soldier power level like in the first movie.

WW is a God and Cheetah is powered by God and the fight scenes should be true to their power levels.

Also, it is 99.99% Maxwell Lord than Hades because DC for some reason thinks he is WW arch villain or something.

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#31 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Obviously, I'm not saying that they should have the exact same fight scene, man. What I was saying was the quality of Choreography.

The last fight Patty directed between two gods was one of the most disappointing parts of the first movie.

Unless I'm missing something, Max can't bring people back from the dead. The rumour was that someone (Max or Diana) made a deal with a god.

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#32 Edited by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: True but there are a lot of other factors that limited Arthur's popularity. One of them being the fact that he was the butt of the jokes. Also the movies have visual effects that can't be replicated to the same degree in the comics. For the most part, the first WW movie wasn't all that unique visually.

A lot of the other stuff you mentioned falls under equality which is great and all but it's not something you can market to a 10 year old or even most adults. WB and even Patty would be reluctant to touch (at least directly) on certain subjects like homosexuality because most people around the world are against it. That's why the passed on the opportunity of giving Diana a love interest on Themyscira. Also AQ also touches on the Preservation of the environment which is just as relevant as equality (gender, sexual etc).

Wonder Woman has mythology but Patty kind of killed the image of DC gods in the eyes of the public. The fight with Ares is considered to be the most disappointing part by most. On top of that, I don't think Patty would want to focus on mythological creatures. She'd prefer to have Diana stopping bank robbers in a mall than a minotaur in the city.

I'm not saying Patty is a bad director but as far as DCEU directors go, it's clear Wonder woman fans drew the short straw. Patty has expressed little interest in the things that make Diana unique like her weapons, combat expertise and mythology. On top of that she isn't that good at directing fights. You could blame the effects on the budget but AQ reportedly had a budget of 160 million yet the difference in quality and quantity of CGI is huge.

Avatar image for agent41
#33 Edited by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity said:

@agent41: True but there are a lot of other factors that limited Arthur's popularity. One of them being the fact that he was the butt of the jokes. Also the movies have visual effects that can't be replicated to the same degree in the comics. For the most part, the first WW movie wasn't all that unique visually.

A lot of the other stuff you mentioned falls under equality which is great and all but it's not something you can market to a 10 year old or even most adults. WB and even Patty would be reluctant to touch (at least directly) on certain subjects like homosexuality because most people around the world are against it. That's why the passed on the opportunity of giving Diana a love interest on Themyscira. Also AQ also touches on the Preservation of the environment which is just as relevant as equality (gender, sexual etc).

Wonder Woman has mythology but Patty kind of killed the image of DC gods in the eyes of the public. The fight with Ares is considered to be the most disappointing part by most. On top of that, I don't think Patty would want to focus on mythological creatures. She'd prefer to have Diana stopping bank robbers in a mall than a minotaur in the city.

I'm not saying Patty is a bad director but as far as DCEU directors go, it's clear Wonder woman fans drew the short straw. Patty has expressed little interest in the things that make Diana unique like her weapons, combat expertise and mythology. On top of that she isn't that good at directing fights. You could blame the effects on the budget but AQ reportedly had a budget of 160 million yet the difference in quality and quantity of CGI is huge.

And there are factors that limited WW too. She has been given the short end of the stick many times as well.

aq budget was 200M. WW was 110M.

You talked about themes. WW is a complex character that touches a lot of important topics about society. Whatever or not they talk about them in the movie, doesn't change the fact that these themes are there, and are a part of the potential of her verse if anybody wants to use them. And it can be done well under the right hands. We are in an era where people are far more open than 25 years ago. An era where all these things Wonder Woman was talking about in a very conservative era like the 40s, are still very relevant in today's society too. Which proves how ahead of her time her character truly was.

snyder and geof are the reason for the way WW is portrayed in her first movie, for the absent of the Gods and the power to fly. It's snyder and geof that focus too much on her gear and the warrior side. They are the ones that had her stopping robers in jl movie, the ones that gave us tht crappy fight against superman in jl. They are the ones that nerfed her in her first movie too. Just like scott synder also does in the comics. They are the ones that gave us warrior woman-super human xena. Patty didn't kill anything. The plot and script were done before she came on board. Patty will have more freedom for the second film. The only thing that can get in the way is geof. But i'm still more positive than negative about the sequel. And if things work well, we will have a franchise. And with that a big opportunity to develop Wonder Woman's verse and power even more on the silver screen.

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#34 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: In pre-new 52 comics? Not nearly to the same extent. WW isn't treated as well as Bats or Supes or even GL but she is treated far better than Arthur.

I'm not sure where you're getting those figures. Most sources claim it that WW was over 120 million (around 150 million). A lot of sources also claim that AQ was around 160 million.

I don't doubt those issues are relevant but that wasn't the point. I was referring to the movies so if they aren't addressed in the movies then that only adds to my point.

Honestly, Geoff is the only reason I'm hopeful. No one but Patty directed the fight with Ares. I think you're putting a lot of blame on the guys but the first movie wasn't completely their fault. Zack Snyder has his faults and he was responsible for JL but he also directed most of the best DCEU fights. Geoff has his problems too but there are clear reasons as to why he gave Diana weapons. I'm not claiming anyone is all bad or all good. Patty has her up and down sides.

I would love to pretend everything I've heard Patty say and read about WW84 but I can't. My hope is that they get James Wan or a more experienced blockbuster director to help her out. Unfortunately I don't think that's the case.

You could say that WW fighting bank robbers were all Goeff and Snyder's idea but reports claim that she is doing the same thing in WW84. In fact, from the description of the scene, it was crappy compared to the JL one. I hated the JL movie but that scene was one of WW best moments outside of comics. When I watched JL, everyone started clapping in the cinema watching that scene. The one in WW84 is hardly an action scene. It was like someone forced Patty to add an action scene and she added a crappy one simply out of spite.

Avatar image for geraldofvengerberg
#35 Edited by Geraldofvengerberg (638 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: Here is a portion of WW84 clip.

You saw Aquaman and Wonder Woman and where do you think they spend 150 million on WW movie. WB inflated the budget of WW after she became successful. Before her movie release, the budget was just 110 million and media was discussing how low budget her movie was compared to the average DC movie like Green Lantern Dark knight and man of steel.

I can completely understand your concern about Patty and I also share the same concern considering Patty's lack of experience with CGI and action movies compared to someone James Wan. But I don't know why you trust Geoff Johns? That man has been nothing but bad news for WW compared to the Saviour he was to all other DC characters.

Avatar image for ganon15
#36 Posted by ganon15 (7211 posts) - - Show Bio

A billion is a stretch..

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#37 Edited by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Did you post a link or clip? I can't see it. But I read a description of a scene that was shown at an event a while ago. It was pretty disappointing though.

What would WB gain from inflating the budget?

Geoff Johns certainly isn't perfect but he has done some good. He emphasised the idea that Wonder woman's DC's greatest warrior. He brought god mode back. Alot of the decisions he made regarding Wonder woman were divisive but the again a lot of things concerning Diana are. He hasn't completely redefined Diana like he did others but if he did chances are a lot of WW fans on this site would hate it.

Avatar image for geraldofvengerberg
#38 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (638 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity:

Loading Video...

Studios inflate the budget of profitable movies and reduce the budget of flop movies to cover up losses. This article discusses the shady practice of Hollywood studios. Aquaman's budget is 200 million according to Forbes.

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www.digitaltrends.com/movies/why-hollywood-movies-are-more-expensive-to-make-than-ever/amp/

Geoff Johns has been doing nothing but paying lip service to Diana with nothing to show she is DC's greatest Warrior in Comics. Also, the God mode was brought back by Azzarello and we have never seen that again.

Making her princess of Rapists, reducing her from being created and powered by Five Goddesses to one of Zeus's bastard child, giving her a cliched twin brother who is more powerful than her! Sorry I am not sold on Geoff Johns. Also Wonder Woman is not in his current comics series Doomsday clock while both Superman, Batman are in it.

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#39 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: I'll watch the video in a few hours.

Like all writers, Johns has his pros and cons. But even the decisions he made that I hated, made sense from a business perspective. He isn't perfect but if I had to choose between Snyder, Patty and Johns, I'd pick Geoff. But yea. He did some sucky stuff.

Avatar image for agent41
#40 Edited by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: If she is fighting robers in a scene from WW84, doesn't mean that is all there is to the sequele. If the movie is not an improvement. That would be because of geof. Yes i blame him and the other guys and not Patty. Because in the comics and the movie they have been involved in, they nerfed her.

And what are you trying to prove here? You open a thread in WW own forum to say aq will outshine her and that her future in movies is crap? Time will tell. WW is a more complex character than aquaman and has huge potential. If Patty and his crappy male partners that nerfed her in comics too aren't able to make good use of that potential, maybe one day somebody else will, DC has treated her badly many times. So it's not like i'm surprised when they give her the short end of the stick. She has achieved many things even while having to deal with unfair treatment. So i can only imagine the possibilities if they treated her better.

Avatar image for geraldofvengerberg
#41 Edited by Geraldofvengerberg (638 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: It is just a 4-second poor quality clip of her jumping in the mall. Nothing more. That's all I could find. I still have not seen the pros of Geoff Johns or the business perspective. I would pick Greg Rucka or Gail Simone to help with the script of the movie than Geoff anyway.

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#42 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Yea. I was talking about the description I read of that entire scene. I believe she jumps into a mall, slides a little girl to safety, lassos the robbers then runs in a street. It's practically nothing.

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#43 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I'm not saying it's all she'll be doing. I was just saying that it's unfair to blame the guys for WW fighting humans when that's what she's doing in the sequel.

Yes, it's possible that someone could come a long and fix Geoff, Patty and Snyder's mess of a character but the odds are slim. I was just trying to explain why Wonder Woman fans drew the shortest straw when it comes to directors (at least when compared to Wan's AQ).

Patty is a talented director and she cares for the character but she's not the best fit. I'm a little more excited for the Wonder Woman: bloodlines animated movie. However I have little hype for both.

Avatar image for agent41
#44 Edited by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity said:

@agent41: I'm not saying it's all she'll be doing. I was just saying that it's unfair to blame the guys for WW fighting humans when that's what she's doing in the sequel.

Yes, it's possible that someone could come a long and fix Geoff, Patty and Snyder's mess of a character but the odds are slim. I was just trying to explain why Wonder Woman fans drew the shortest straw when it comes to directors (at least when compared to Wan's AQ).

Patty is a talented director and she cares for the character but she's not the best fit. I'm a little more excited for the Wonder Woman: bloodlines animated movie. However I have little hype for both.

I don't know if that is all she will do.

But in the comics. snyder and geof are also the reason she is nerfed and does nothing big when she is supposed to be a powerhouse.

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#45 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I think that decision was partly made by WB execs. Superman and Bats are DC's flagships. There was backlash to Supes' portrayal because the general public believes Supes to be the most powerful character ever. So they made WW weak so Supes has no competition. They made sure the gap was big enough so that no one doubts it.

It's unfortunate but that's probably why she's been a husk.

Avatar image for mrnoital
#46 Posted by Mrnoital (8138 posts) - - Show Bio

I think its a great movie, a billion might be a stretch

but making people think better of the DC brand isn't a bad thing for and DC character

Avatar image for kevinffinity
#47 Posted by Kevinffinity (183 posts) - - Show Bio

It looks like Aquaman probably won't make it to a billion at this point but my point still stands.

Just to clarify, I'm a big Aquaman fan so I'm really happy Aquama is as good as it is. I love it so much I can't see how they could top it in Aquaman 2.

Avatar image for agent41
#48 Posted by agent41 (15841 posts) - - Show Bio

It looks like Aquaman probably won't make it to a billion at this point but my point still stands.

Just to clarify, I'm a big Aquaman fan so I'm really happy Aquama is as good as it is. I love it so much I can't see how they could top it in Aquaman 2.

I'm happy thart AQ has done well. But so did WW. They deserve better treatment in comics and movies after proving themselves the way they did. I hope better days come for both.

Avatar image for tedirey
#49 Posted by Tedirey (2855 posts) - - Show Bio

Re the topic, no. It would complement Wonder Woman and vice-versa.

Avatar image for scorpio_cassadine
#50 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

It looks like Aquaman probably won't make it to a billion at this point but my point still stands.

Just to clarify, I'm a big Aquaman fan so I'm really happy Aquama is as good as it is. I love it so much I can't see how they could top it in Aquaman 2.

They'll top it by Black Manta killing Arthur and Mera's son and the arc of Arthur going from Aquabro to wise King out for vengeance.

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.