I think he is a little above cap's level

It would make sense he's the best fighter due to his age and physical attributes...he's been alive so much long than all of the othe top fighters mentioned and had many more years to master numerous fighting styles but still the physical prowess of someone in peak physical condition or better.

Where is Logan skill wise compared to Danny and T'Challa

Depends on who is writing it.

@makhai: not Ennis. Let's assume Wolverine is actually utilizing his skillset and no one is holding back.

I personally think he would beat them both after a really good fight then.

@makhai: thanks

Wow, the Wolverine wank is real in this thread. I wouldn't put him above Cap but he would beat Cap everytime because of super-strength/bones/senses. Some people even thought Wolverine was the best MA in the MU. Seriously? I know he is good and he has a lot of training but he has so few feats compared to others it's absurd. He is the best at what he does which consists of *SNIKT* *RAARGH!* and only the best at that.

Wolverine's strength is only marginally superior to Cap's. The benefits of his bones are countered by the shield (which can knock him out). Wolverine has messed Cap up when he was holding back and his bones and strength was shown to be a non-factor in the fight.

It's not wank, it's character knowledge. The distinction between the two is pretty clear.

However, it seems clear that you simply intend to lowball the character. Wolverine fighting at his best IS one of the best H2H fighters in Marvel.

what happened after that? What did squirrel girl do did she win?

You know what it is

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Over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@god_spawn: would you say he's as skiled as say Cassie Cain or Lady Shiva?

@nickzambuto: yes a 7 is enough since 7 is the freaking max rating you can get in the official ratings. captain america has a 6

@rabumalal: the official power ratings state he is a 7 out of 7 where in captain america is a 6 out of 7 your points are invalid

@randell1985: Alright fanboy excuse my three year old comment lmao.

@makhai: Cap can lift 1200lbs, Wolverine can lift 2 tons. Not even close.

Anyone have the scan saying Wolverine has mastered every martial art on earth, including alien ones? I saw the old handbook saying he's mastered "virtually" every martial art. Also that he studied how to kill pretty much everything alive etc. I also know he's a 7 in skill. But does anyone actually have the scan stating it's every martial art he's mastered?

Bump

@gambit1024: wolverine has beaten shang-chi in h2h combat

His sheer knowledge is among the top of the top. In application and strategy he trails a little behind. He's still top tier, but honestly I put Daredevil, Cap, T'Challa, Iron Fist, all those guys above him. Wolverine has the advantage of superhuman stats, stamina, adamantium bones, and claws. Like his famous fight with Cap in Origins where he gave Cap an aneurism. That only happened because Cap had to concern himself with ridding Logan's claws. It's not exactly fair.

Logan is one of the most skilled comic book characters every created. I would say he is one of top 3 best fighters of the Marvel Universe.

Probably top 3 in Marvel Universe.For sure he is above Cap.

@yamata: he's pretty much Batman, since he also spent bit portion of his life on traveling and learning all sorts of techniques and fighting styles.

@krleavenger: I know it’s been awhile but I was wondering how you would rate Wolverine (at the height of his skill) vs the following characters; strictly hand to hand:

- Danny Rand

- Tomi Shishido

- Ogun

- T’Challa

- Mr. X

- Fat Cobra

This is assuming Logan has all of his memories back, and each character is at the height of his skill

The best he can hope to beat is Moon Knight.(without da healing)

@lukadoncicmvp: Are you saying that knowibg how unclermoon knight ranks to troll or do you place moon knight a a specific level?

@stahlflamme: He ain't beating Cap, Daredevil & Shang Chi without healing. Hope it's clear now.

@supermanwithatan01: did you ever get your answer for this?

Anyone have the scan saying Wolverine has mastered every martial art on earth, including alien ones? I saw the old handbook saying he's mastered "virtually" every martial art. Also that he studied how to kill pretty much everything alive etc. I also know he's a 7 in skill. But does anyone actually have the scan stating it's every martial art he's mastered?

I don't think there is a scan stating he's mastered every martial art. Closest is probably the 7 rating which equates to "master of all forms of combat"

Outside of that, most modern guidebooks still usually he's mastered "virtually every form of combat." The closest in-comic statement I've seen is probably the Manifest Destiny scene.

He is at the top in Marvel.

@fenristhewolf said:

@supermanwithatan01: did you ever get your answer for this?

Anyone have the scan saying Wolverine has mastered every martial art on earth, including alien ones? I saw the old handbook saying he's mastered "virtually" every martial art. Also that he studied how to kill pretty much everything alive etc. I also know he's a 7 in skill. But does anyone actually have the scan stating it's every martial art he's mastered?

I don't think there is a scan stating he's mastered every martial art. Closest is probably the 7 rating which equates to "master of all forms of combat"

Outside of that, most modern guidebooks still usually he's mastered "virtually every form of combat." The closest in-comic statement I've seen is probably the Manifest Destiny scene.

I believe it's the 7's stating that he has mastered of all forms of combat and the knowing how to kill everything in the universe.. the latter might be hyperbole character statement but the former I'm inclined to put stock in.

Plus Morpheus made a helluva case for Logan being top of the food chain in terms of skill (when he wants to)

@supermanwithatan01:

I believe it's the 7's stating that he has mastered of all forms of combat and the knowing how to kill everything in the universe

Right, that's what I was saying. There's no explicit statement in the comics that he's mastered "every form of combat." It comes mainly from guidebook statements of the "7" and "mastered virtually every form of combat." But there's nothing in the comics (hell, or even the guidebooks) that flat out says he's mastered everything in so many words.

Knowing how to kill everything in the universe isn't indicative of H2H skills, so I'd say the Manifest Destiny statements are stronger in this regard.

Agreed. It does stated "mastered all forms of combat" and that's actually more impressive than "mastered all fighting styles". The former including the latter but not the inverse. If you do ever come across a scan of that, could you send it to me?

@supermanwithatan01:

If you do ever come across a scan of that, could you send it to me?

Will do, but as I've been saying I'm 99% sure it doesn't exist except in the definition of a "7" in the guidebooks. I'm sure it doesn't exist because (1) I've read like 99.98% of his appearances (probably only missing a couple random background appearances and that time of thing), and (2) either one of us would have seen such a scan posted on the internet by this post.

@fenristhewolf: I believe you’re right. It would have been good to have for my scans but it’s of no matter. I’ve always felt feats > official entries = character statements > writer comments (to fans) > fan opinions

I hold writer opinions low because there’s very few characters that have 1 writer and with their age and growth, often times writers takes on characters are the same concept as judging a movie franchise by a single scene.

@supermanwithatan01:

I hold writer opinions low because there’s very few characters that have 1 writer and with their age and growth, often times writers takes on characters are the same concept as judging a movie franchise by a single scene.

For me, it's a case-by-case basis depending on the speaker, comment, subject, etc. For example, I would hold a creator's comment clarifying his own work very highly, like if a writer clarified what he intended in a scene, or if an artist explained what's happening in his panel.

However, I would take a creator's comments that implicate other's creators' work as meaning very little, like if a random writer said "Wolverine is more skilled than Iron Fist" That kind of statement implicates a lot of considerations outside of the writer's own material. There are further considerations as well, for example, say a Chief Editor commenting on on official Marvel Universe rule vs. a fresh writer's hot take twitter comment.

I can understand that but it's too subjective in most cases.. it isn't just their depiction of their own character, but their personal iteration of other characters. It's why I value feats above all else then handbook entries because I consider those less biased than writers (including creators). Some writers show ridiculous favoritism and under-write other characters in order to hype their creation. There will always be some bias lol as these characters are written subjectively with different takes. Thats why it's easier for me to accept a particular version/style of a character (in Logan's case its because he's written relatively differently from writer to writer.

@supermanwithatan01:

I can understand that but it's too subjective in most cases.. it isn't just their depiction of their own character, but their personal iteration of other characters.

Well that's what I meant by arguing for a case-by-case consideration and pointing out that when the creator's comments implicate other people's works the statements become iffier. Like take the classic George RR Martin statement that Jaime could beat Aragorn. This statement implicates JRRT's work, so doesn't hold any more weight than a random fan really. However, if GRRM says that Jaime can beat John Snow, then yeah I'm going to put more weight on that.

It's why I value feats above all else then handbook entries because I consider those less biased than writers (including creators).

The distinction is sort of fake though. Hypothetically, the same creator whose comments you're worried about may also be the one that provides the feat. Like what's the real difference between a creator giving us a feat of XYZ, as opposed to that creator's stating that XYZ is the case? It's really just two different modes of expression.

Well thats too completely separate stories/universes. We agree on this point though. I also remember a bunch of fans reaching out to some writer about the Sentry being more powerful than the Molecule man because of the ridiculous feat (WIS). That feat is used but now has context attached to it. The writers opinion was given on formspring, and was paired with that feat all the time, but meant less than nothing. There is something to be said of characters or stories growing beyond their creators and not belonging to them anymore.

Oh I disagree here. The distinction is HUGE... One is a writer who sets something in canon-stone (lol which can be changed but still matters when cataloging capabilities or limitations) and the other is a writer giving an opinion that does not alter the history of a character. Writer one is literally affecting a character's history by giving them specific feats, good or bad. The latter is a writer giving an opinion that while holding weight with a community, is ultimately irrelevant unless its substantiated on the page.

Again, I want to be clear: I do not believe the handbooks to be the end-all-say-all but when they accompany a history of feats to endorse the content, it mean's something more than simply a comment from a writer about a character's power-level. It is a canon part of the characters identity. One is an opinion that can be fact, the other is fact despite opinion.

@supermanwithatan01:

There is something to be said of characters or stories growing beyond their creators and not belonging to them anymore.

Very true, but that's something to consider in weighing statements, rather than outright ruling against all statements. Like in Marvel, obviously the characters are serialized and many authors have written them, meaning any particular writer has less authority, whereas something like Game of Thrones books is only written by GRRM.

Oh I disagree here. The distinction is HUGE... One is a writer who sets something in canon-stone (lol which can be changed but still matters when cataloging capabilities or limitations) and the other is a writer giving an opinion that does not alter the history of a character.

I should have clarified that the distinction is not huge to me when we're talking about writers who have more control over their universe, like GRRM. Like obviously the distinction can be huge in comics (but I'd still want more context before just outright discarding stuff), but I'm not so sure the distinction is as huge in something like Game of Thrones (to keep the example rolling).

It is a canon part of the characters identity. One is an opinion that can be fact, the other is fact despite opinion.

Again, for me this is just a contextual thing, and I wouldn't rule out any statements just because they are statements. I would consider who is making them, the context of the issue at question, etc.

Sorry I didn't respond 5 months ago haha I think we're on the same page for the most part

I would think he's one of the best with his age, training and experience in combat.