Would Tim Drake really be a better Batman than Dick Grayson?

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#1 Posted by VampireSelektor (865 posts) - - Show Bio

Due to his brilliant detective skills and genius-level intellect, many fanboys prefer Drake to Grayson. That being said, I'm still not buying it. In a way, being the next World's Greatest Detective doesn't equate to being the next Batman. Sure, Drake can be ruthless, cunning, calculating, even to the extent of outsmarting Ra's Al Ghul. Does that immediately qualify him to be Batman? No. On the other hand, Grayson has had a illustrious career filled with numerous accomplishments, and yet it seems as if even his diehard fans consider him below competent compared to his successor. In fact, during the tumultuous Battle for the Cowl, a few people even considered Harvey Dent to be a more worthy contender for the role (angst, maybe?).    
 
Here is my opinion on the differences between  Drake and Grayson (and not a complete rip-off from Fabian Nicieza) ; )     
 
Tim Drake:  PROS: Genius-level intellect with expertise in various fields (biology, chemistry, forensic science), Master Martial Artist, Expert Acrobat, Brilliant Tactician and Detective.   
                      CONS: Can be too rigid at times, relies too heavily on his carefully orchestrated plans, 
 
Dick Grayson: PROS: Highly intelligent with expertise in various fields (biology, chemistry, forensic science), Master Martial Artist, Greatest Acrobat in the DC Universe, Brilliant Tactician and Detective 
                          CONS: Tends to not apply meticulous planning to solo endeavors.  
 
Tim Drake is NOT Bruce Wayne. No one is Bruce Wayne, save for Bruce Wayne. But, taking a cue from Alfred, if readers were to view the mantle of Batman as a dramatic role, who would give the best performance. I sort of see Grayson as the Roger Moore to Wayne's Sean Connery. However, I cannot think of another of a counterpart for Tim Drake.....   
 
Your thoughts?  

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#2 Posted by RedK (2541 posts) - - Show Bio

Tim is also the only other person that Ra's has called detective other then Bruce this shows that Ra's views him as another equal or that he could possibly  his equal in the future
 
Tim Drake - Pierce Brosnan 

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#3 Posted by VampireSelektor (865 posts) - - Show Bio

Damian Wayne - Daniel Craig    
 
I really think that Tim and Dick are two halves of a perfect Batman, however

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#4 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio
@VampireSelektor said:
"

Damian Wayne - Daniel Craig    
 
I really think that Tim and Dick are two halves of a perfect Batman, however

"

This is a very true statement, imho if there was an amalmagation of the two, he would be better than Bruce as batman. 
Back to the topic at hand, personally i see Dick Grayson to be the most worthy sucessor to the Batman throne, i have a variety of reasons for why i think this and i won't go into much detail about that here. The reason many think that Tim Drake is a better Batman comes from the fact that Tim Drake is in fact much more like Batman in his attitude towards Crime fighting (e.g. planning) as well as his strengths are in fact much of Batman's strengths (Detective, brains). Fans had a problem with Dick Grayson assuming the mantle because it kind of changed what they were used to reading, since Dick deals with Crime differently than those two.  
I think that now some of these people might agree with the decision to make Dick Batman since, the readers can chose what type of Batman to read since they are in seperate titles, as well as see them in a team dynamic (in Batman inc. if its heading that way). Making Tim Drake Batman would have to have him mature more than is plausible and have him take role in the current JLA, something I see that DC would have trouble doing considering he still kinda belongs in the Teen Titans, imo anyway. I am sure many will disagree, but this is Ultimatley my opinion on the topic.
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#5 Posted by jasraj (4923 posts) - - Show Bio
i already made this
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#6 Posted by mistersarcastic (349 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:
" @VampireSelektor said:
"

Damian Wayne - Daniel Craig    
 
I really think that Tim and Dick are two halves of a perfect Batman, however

"

This is a very true statement, imho if there was an amalmagation of the two, he would be better than Bruce as batman. 
Back to the topic at hand, personally i see Dick Grayson to be the most worthy sucessor to the Batman throne, i have a variety of reasons for why i think this and i won't go into much detail about that here. The reason many think that Tim Drake is a better Batman comes from the fact that Tim Drake is in fact much more like Batman in his attitude towards Crime fighting (e.g. planning) as well as his strengths are in fact much of Batman's strengths (Detective, brains). Fans had a problem with Dick Grayson assuming the mantle because it kind of changed what they were used to reading, since Dick deals with Crime differently than those two.  I think that now some of these people might agree with the decision to make Dick Batman since, the readers can chose what type of Batman to read since they are in seperate titles, as well as see them in a team dynamic (in Batman inc. if its heading that way). Making Tim Drake Batman would have to have him mature more than is plausible and have him take role in the current JLA, something I see that DC would have trouble doing considering he still kinda belongs in the Teen Titans, imo anyway. I am sure many will disagree, but this is Ultimatley my opinion on the topic. "
I agree with both of these. Though the only thing I didn't particularly like about Dick taking the Batman mantle, was not because of his original approach towards crime, but it seemed like he was returning to the shadow the Batman always seemed to cast of it's Robin. Here he was being his own as Nightwing and then he dived back in. But at the same time, I guess he didn't return, it's more like he embraced it in a way? If that makes any sense to anyone 'coz it did in my head. As for Tim making a better B-Man than Dick... I'll say this: I'm a "Tim fan boy" and I don't particular think his wits and resources make him a better Bat, and I particularly think Dick makes a better one than he does. Like VampireSelektor said, they make two halves of a perfect Batman. I much prefer them running as their own heroes though and now wondering just how long Dick Grayson's run as Gotham's Batman will last.
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#7 Posted by andrea_mendoza1997 (359 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's just say they are equal okay maybe  but Dick has had more experience than Tim.

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#8 Posted by BatteredArmor (6234 posts) - - Show Bio


I think it depends on what you think makes batman great the way i see it all the robins make up part of the bat

Dick: The Acrobat (but the most balanced when it comes to other skills)

Jason: The Fighter (I don't know what martial arts he knows but the passion and agression possible of batman is in his fist)

Tim: The Detective (Whether or not he ever becomes batman he will inherit the title worlds greatest detective)

It took over a year to pick a title for damien and this is probably a temproary one but

Damien: The Fear (no other robin has been scary while they were robin Tim and Dick still aren't necisarily scary)

 

Personaly I think the detective acpect is the most important and in 10, 20 years when Bruce retires on purpose then a mature Tim should deffinetly becom batman but until then Dick is doing fine (I wish he was more dark thats my only isue with it, How do they make charecters darker? oh yeah. kill a friend. Now who should die :), ).

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#9 Posted by VampireSelektor (865 posts) - - Show Bio
@BlackArmor said:
"


I think it depends on what you think makes batman great the way i see it all the robins make up part of the bat

Dick: The Acrobat (but the most balanced when it comes to other skills)

Jason: The Fighter (I don't know what martial arts he knows but the passion and agression possible of batman is in his fist)

Tim: The Detective (Whether or not he ever becomes batman he will inherit the title worlds greatest detective)

It took over a year to pick a title for damien and this is probably a temproary one but

Damien: The Fear (no other robin has been scary while they were robin Tim and Dick still aren't necisarily scary)

 

Personaly I think the detective acpect is the most important and in 10, 20 years when Bruce retires on purpose then a mature Tim should deffinetly becom batman but until then Dick is doing fine (I wish he was more dark thats my only isue with it, How do they make charecters darker? oh yeah. kill a friend. Now who should die :), ).

"

Eh, I wouldn't deem Jason as The Fighter. Given his propensity for traps, misdirection, and a fanboy-like determination to "out-gritty" and outdo Batman, I would label Jason as either The Trickster or The Propagandist.
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#10 Posted by Martial_spider (9 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Tim Drake is the clear choice. He WANTS it. As much as people like to rank the Robins Dick and Tim consider themselves equals. Dick clearly made a name for himself as nightwing and he should stick to it. Tim isn't ready though at this point Dick makes a better Batman because he is ready to take that role he just shouldn't because he can do as well without the cowl.

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#11 Edited by Dernman (26467 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly I don't think anyone is right for the role. I think it should skip a few generations and start brand new.

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#12 Posted by RDClip (2792 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd rather see Tim in an Oracle type role, if we're talking about a future without Bruce. Tim gets hurt real bad and can't fight on the streets anymore so he has to support Damien. Tim then has to deal with his resentment for Damien because Tim was the Robin who revered Bruce the most and wanted to be Batman the most when Bruce gave it up.

This would produce a very interesting dynamic between the two characters. Damien being the irreverent jerk he is and Tim trying to do the best he can despite his frustrations with Damien and his own situation.

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#13 Edited by The_Kidd (12590 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Tim would definitely be an effective Batman but I don't know if he would be better than Dick, he is a good detective and strategist but he needs to work on his fighting skills. The alternate future where Tim was Batman he was actually cool, he had Bruce prepping knowledge but didn't have his morals and skills.

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#14 Posted by Lhynn (326 posts) - - Show Bio

@rdclip: :necro: uh, Tim doesnt resent Damian. Its always been the other way around.

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#15 Posted by RDClip (2792 posts) - - Show Bio

@Soulaf: I don't think Tim likes Damien at all. And my interpretation of all the Robins is that Tim idolized Bruce the most and wants the most to carry on the Bat-mantle when Bruce is gone (he can't even give up the Robin name after he was replaced).

Thus my future story is that Tim gets injured very badly and can't fight in the field anymore. The bitterness combined with Damian taking over the cowl would make for an interesting character arc for him. Add to that the slightly antagonistic relationship between Tim and Damien, it could make a decent story.

I will admit that is all headcanon.

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#16 Posted by Lhynn (326 posts) - - Show Bio

@rdclip: Tim doesnt like Damian because he almost murdered him out of jealousy as Tim offered him his hand in friendship. Also because Damian is a murderer and a brat and brought shame to the Robin nomer by staining it with blood. All very good reasons to dislike someone if you ask me. Its not resentment, Damian is just a shitty person that is in it for the glory (or was, he seems to have grown up somewhat).

Tim never wanted to be batman, tho batman himself wanted him to inherit the position and told him so during the events of no mans land.

Damian resents Tim because Bruce adopted him as his first son, because he felt he was less than Tim, and that was completely incompatible with what he was taught in his upbringing.

Tim never really thought of being a hero as his future, he always planned to quit at some point. Thing is he has always been a big picture kind of guy, he knows he can save people, save the world even, so he keeps doing it while hurting his personal life, because its the right thing to do. Unlike barbara for whom batmans aproval meant everything, hed be happy going back to having a normal life if an injury ever got in the way of him helping people.

Tim is the only person in the DC universe to constantly surprise bruce, while most people fight to get bruces aproval Tim always had his respect and admiration. Every expectation Bruce set Tim surpassed, this was a common theme along his career, and the very reason Damian is both jealous and feels he needs to be better than him. Because in his eyes Tim had everything Damian wants. Its also the reason he constantly derides him and kicks him while hes down.

So this is why you got it backwards. Tim couldnt care less about damian other than him being a disgrace to the Robin name he himself struggled so hard to live up to.

As for him being red robin, it was the name his latest villain used (an old enemy that wanted to mock Tim by using the red robin name). He took up that mantle for several reasons a) as a punishment for feeling like he failed his loved ones b) as an already tainted name with which he could break rules and play dirty until he managed to find evidence of bruce being alive c) he didnt need to put much thought into it, he simply didnt see it as important at the time.

Of course Tim not only redeemed the name, the titans took him back as leader and ditched Damian, Tim found bruce and had him be rescued by the league, then helped bruce get out of mind control and brought him back home. All with the name of a villain, and a costume that both dick grayson and jason todd used in the past (they both were Red Robin at some point).

tl;dr: you are so wrong.

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#17 Posted by VampireSelektor (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Soulaf said:

@rdclip: Tim doesnt like Damian because he almost murdered him out of jealousy as Tim offered him his hand in friendship. Also because Damian is a murderer and a brat and brought shame to the Robin nomer by staining it with blood. All very good reasons to dislike someone if you ask me. Its not resentment, Damian is just a shitty person that is in it for the glory (or was, he seems to have grown up somewhat).

Tim never wanted to be batman, tho batman himself wanted him to inherit the position and told him so during the events of no mans land.

Damian resents Tim because Bruce adopted him as his first son, because he felt he was less than Tim, and that was completely incompatible with what he was taught in his upbringing.

Tim never really thought of being a hero as his future, he always planned to quit at some point. Thing is he has always been a big picture kind of guy, he knows he can save people, save the world even, so he keeps doing it while hurting his personal life, because its the right thing to do. Unlike barbara for whom batmans aproval meant everything, hed be happy going back to having a normal life if an injury ever got in the way of him helping people.

Tim is the only person in the DC universe to constantly surprise bruce, while most people fight to get bruces aproval Tim always had his respect and admiration. Every expectation Bruce set Tim surpassed, this was a common theme along his career, and the very reason Damian is both jealous and feels he needs to be better than him. Because in his eyes Tim had everything Damian wants. Its also the reason he constantly derides him and kicks him while hes down.

So this is why you got it backwards. Tim couldnt care less about damian other than him being a disgrace to the Robin name he himself struggled so hard to live up to.

OK, a couple of the statements above are inaccurate. Tim ranks among the few who have surprised Bruce, and fought doggedly to win his, Dick's, and just above everyone else's approval during his freshman years as Robin. Dick overcame his own numerous expectations projected onto him by Bruce and set precedents for Tim to learn from during his training. The very independence Tim enjoyed that his fans love to cite stems from Dick's own messy struggle to break away from Bruce. So while I respect Tim as a character, I struggle with fans who overly glorify him. The comparisons to Damian, Tim's successor and junior, who started patrolling as Robin at age 10 to Tim's 13, raised till that point in the art of assassination outside of civilization, are inconsiderate, and one-sided. Tim's wealthy, smart, latchkey kid versus Damian's child terrorist. Why wouldn't Tim have an easier transition to vigilante life than Damian? Tim, after losing both parents and his best friend finally accepts Bruce's adoption of him, and then meets his new daddy's biological son, wasn't insecure? Tim wasn't jealous when Dick "promoted" him out of the Robin costume at the age when he would've graduated out of the role anyway, or when he exclaimed "I'm Tim Wayne!" after punching Damian for jeering at him? Certain Tim fans describe him as a Mary Sue but swear so profusely that he has depth; he literally cannot be both, by definition.

Tim may not have wanted to succeed Bruce and Dick as Batman, but he damn sure wanted Gotham for himself at the end of Red Robin, and that take under Fabian Nicieza's pen might've been my favorite version for Tim. There on the rooftop, Tim had of his peak Nightwing moments, coming to grips with his own growing pain, only instead of answering "I will create for myself and others to learn and grow" the way Dick did during his run leading the Titans and his own adventures, Tim declared "the city is [his]", that Red Robin policed Gotham sovereignly now. That's fascinating to hear from someone who's best work as a superhero was (and still is) as Robin, and who when even playing another role, was still Robin, even in name. Tim may have graduated, but he graduated from Batman's Robin to the Bat-Family's Robin, and yet at the end, refused to settle. We never saw how his inner turmoil played out after Flashpoint, but I do wonder how Tim fans might've reacted.

Have to leave now. Back for edits and replies later.

Selam.

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#18 Edited by Lhynn (326 posts) - - Show Bio

@vampireselektor: 1) Dick didnt have nearly the room to grow and develop as a character in his years as robin as Tim did, no other robin has actually. You saying that dick had his own struggles may be or may not be wrong, he stopped being robin before he had the chance to show us that kind of development.

2) Tim is indeed one of the few in the DC universe that has managed to not only fulfill expectations, but outright surpass them. He overcame what Bruce himself called impossible odds, and coming from bruce, the man for whom seemingly nothing is impossible, thats as high a praise as it can possibly get.

3) Damian was BatDicks robin, him and bruce have 0 chemistry and its a bore to follow them.

4) Tim wasnt jealous when dick made Damian robin, he felt outright betrayed. His family dead, his friends dead, his mentor and father dead, his ex betrayed him. The robin mantle, everything he has in the whole world, taken from him when he felt he needed it the most. On top of that he is the only character in the DC universe that is convinced Bruce isnt dead, everyone else believed he is a loon.

5) This is the robin that saved batman. Batman saved every other robin, he gave them a life and a purpose. Tim came into the role to save batman, and after he left the role he saved batman. He was the only person close enough to him to break his mindcontrol. His son, the one bruce chose. This stuff is hardly talked about, but its exactly how it went down and people refuse to acknowledge it or give it the importance it deserves.

6) Fabian Niziezas Red Robin shows us a Tim that gave up on having a normal life. Its a completely different character from chuck dixons Tim Drake, in the same vein that a guy that wanted to be a fisher ends up as a politician. Life happens, you have to grow up and cope with it. I love Niciezas and yost Red Robin as much as i love Dixons Robin, they all understood the character well.

Also you probably want to reread Niciezas run on Robin, especially during batman RIP. Thats the first hint that Tim is actually really liking being independent and making his own choices when it comes to Gotham, where he learns how to handle it, thanks to Stephanie in part.

7) back to the mary sue comment, nope, Tim isnt a mary sue at all. Damian may fit the definitions in some ways, Harper is a mary sue in every way. What Tim was at the start is a readers insert, this is the entire opposite of a mary sue, this is a character that isnt about the author and his desire to insert himself on the work, but a character with whom the reader is supposed to identify. Tim wasnt a nerd because dixon was a nerd, Tim didnt play DnD because Dixon played, he didnt listen to popular music because dixon did, he wasnt a fan of robin because dixon was a fan of robin (and he wasnt, the job kind of landed on him when it was noticed he wrote teenagers well). For all intents and purposes Tim drake was the prototypical young comic book reader in the 80s-90s, and his personality evolved from that starting point, he wasnt a mary sue, he wasnt a blank slate, he was a full fledged character, like any character worth reading.

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