@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@longbowhunter said:

Again, BELIEVING something is true is not the same thing as KNOWING something is true. So, no your opinions still arent facts. Nobody's are, no matter how you look at it. If that was the case simply believing in god would prove his existence.

That's pretty freakin' flawed of you to say. As with those who believe in god, to them...it IS fact that he exist. While to those who don't, it's just believers opinion that he exist. So opinions are only facts to those that they apply to. It only becomes a true fact when all are convinced that it is provin'.

Tim bein' a bitch is fact to me. regardless of what others say or think. I know it to be true.

That's just a logical fallacy, opinions are opinions and facts are facts... just because you (or anyone else) believes something to be a fact, that does not make it a fact... a fact is something that is provable, not something that is a personal and subjective viewpoint from one person. There is no such thing as a "true fact" as it would be redundant, truth IS fact and opinions should be kept separate from that.

So if I say you're a child molester. Since it's my opinion, it's fact! ;)

FIGHT,FIGHT

I'm not fighting with him. He's a child molester. :P

@RainEffect said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: On a side note, did you happen to glance at my reasoning for not being a Grayson fan? I'm interested in your response.

Jea I read it. But I chose not to answer it because other people had already pointed out Grayson's flaws. On a personal note, I don't care what negative things people have to say about my favorite characters...until it's just an all out over the top full blown lie.

Like sayin' Tim can tie or beat Jason in a fight.

@Durakken said:

Jason is and always has been a screw up, both for himself and others.

Yes, he is highly trained and better than most if not all the other Villains the Bat-family handles, but he is short sited, full of rage, doesn't know how to deal with anyone in a positive way. He's not a bad guy, but he has chosen... or rather was forced... on a hard path where he is willing to make that hard call to kill so that others don't.

The fight between Jason and Dick I would not call definitive simply because Jason didn't want to kill Dick and more than likely didn't want to be Batman. He likely was doing the same thing Tim was doing more or less, which was pushing Dick to be Batman and be Better because Jason views Bruce as the greatest person alive which is also where his angst comes from... Bruce is great, so then why didn't he kill Joker when Joker killed him.

Dick is the essence being trained to the point where he doesn't think anymore. You put him in a match with someone he knows what their moves are and all that he more than likely can beat them because he works on instinct and that means no thought and no hesitation. Even from a leadership standpoint the only reason he is such a good leader is because he views his team mates as extensions of himself and is a talker so all he has to do is switch from talking to the enemy to giving orders. This makes it look like he is more tactical minded than he is, but he's probably the easiest to defeat for the most trained fighters that don't rely solely on instinct.

Damian's problem is rage. He's a natural fighter and instinct based like Dick, but lacks the experience and has a ton of rage...and was trained to kill but tries not to. He's highly exploitable to anyone that picks up on this. He'll likely be better than Dick when he grows up, but I would say that he is currently slightly weaker than Jason overall simply due to Jason being an adult and having learned to use his anger.

If we're measure natural fighting talent Tim is 3rd below Dick and Damian, because he doesn't focus on it, but also because his physical training when he was younger was much less intense and focused so he simply isn't as developed in those areas. Where he excels how is tactics, strategy, thinking on his feet, analysis, and having a much larger and varied number of skills to draw from. And this is where people fall off in their understanding because if we equalized the 4 in everything other than simply execution and power it Tim would rank 2nd or 3rd behind Dick and maybe Damian (remember equalizing age) however, if we add figuring out weaknesses, strategizing, and executing that strategy... Tim becomes #1. Why? Simply because Tim only needs to survive long enough to figure something out and all of them can survive long enough in battle for that to occur. The difference is that Tim has more to draw on from training and is just better at figuring it out. That's another thing that people don't get....

Dick 1st student of Bruce, meaning Bruce made more mistakes when he taught him than the other 3 and Dick only trained via Bruce

Jason 2nd student, but didn't listen and wasn't under Bruce for long... and then trained by who we can guess taught the league of Assassin people who are inferior to the Bat-family.

Damian taught by league of assassin, and Dick which means he's getting Dick's mistakes as well as Bruce's with Dick

Tim was 3rd to be trained by Bruce which means Bruce was more refined in this case than the other 3. Tim also trained from Shiva who is highly refined and several other masters who are highly refined that only he was trained by plus all of Bruce's former master's. Then he also spent some time being trained by Dick and also competed against Oracle in terms of Cyber stuff.

So in terms of shear knowledge and ability outside of natural fighting talent Tim wins hands down. As Tim said to Ra's "I don't need to fight you. I already won"

I agreed with a lot of what you said up until you put Tim above Jason. You piqued my interest when you said to equal out all of their ages. But your explanation of what would happen was seriously flawed.

By equalin' out their ages Tim would only increase a very slight amount...(if he does at all)...because Tim's main focus...(and best asset)...would be his smarts. He wouldn't increase in physical stats because those aren't his strengths. Damian would extremely however, because to me he's a mix of Grayson and Jason. He has the agility, and the instincts...as well as the rage and savagery. And with added age he would become a force in the physical department. Jason and Grayson as well wouldn't improve much if at all in this.

Your Bruce's trainin' explanation was also a little flawed, as he trained Grayson when he was still in his prime, and what he knew was still fresh in his mind. These trainin' regimes would actually deteriorate over time as he would skip lessons that he thought he taught. Not to mention crime was more out of hand, givin' Bruce less time to teach as he came across his students.

So Grayson would have the most trainin' followed by a tie of what Jason and Tim knew...(because Jason spent less time with him, and Tim came later on). But Grayson also has his own fightin' style and is the only former to master what Bruce had to teach.

Jason may not had fully mastered what Bruce had to teach...but what he learned since his resurrection puts him pretty close to Grayson. As Jason learned from masters of the craft. And mastered what they taught to the point of bein' able to kill his teachers.

Tim on the other hand...(as I've said so many times)...hasn't mastered anything from anyone...(with the exception of one move that he can't use because his physical stats are too low to do it). He's book smarts...not street smarts, and this can be a good and bad thing. Because he'd try to stratigise with the unpredictable.

Damian was trained since birth, puttin' him on a path similar to Cassandra. He was trained by masters, as well as Grayson and Bruce.

If all of these Robin's were the same age Damian would be the victor.

Tim would lose first, as he would try to dodge and stratigise his way to victory...but his flaw again is that these are fighters that are on higher physical levels than himself. You can not dodge what is faster than you...(unless you're Cassandra Cain to a bullet)... And with his lack of endurance...he would be the first to fall.

I do not know who would win between Jason and Grayson as their stats are so even. But whichever one wins, that person would lose to Damian. Because with them bein' the same age, he'd have already increased his skills and stats, learned to control his rage, and use his skills properly.

@Hunter114 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@longbowhunter said:

Again, BELIEVING something is true is not the same thing as KNOWING something is true. So, no your opinions still arent facts. Nobody's are, no matter how you look at it. If that was the case simply believing in god would prove his existence.

That's pretty freakin' flawed of you to say. As with those who believe in god, to them...it IS fact that he exist. While to those who don't, it's just believers opinion that he exist. So opinions are only facts to those that they apply to. It only becomes a true fact when all are convinced that it is provin'.

Tim bein' a bitch is fact to me. regardless of what others say or think. I know it to be true.

That's just a logical fallacy, opinions are opinions and facts are facts... just because you (or anyone else) believes something to be a fact, that does not make it a fact... a fact is something that is provable, not something that is a personal and subjective viewpoint from one person. There is no such thing as a "true fact" as it would be redundant, truth IS fact and opinions should be kept separate from that.

Opinions are personal facts. These are things you feel are true and have no contradictory evidence to dismiss it.

For instance...

some people say I'm a dick...to them this is true. While others say I'm funny...to them this is true. A personal belief is an opinion, as well as a personal fact. Another example. I think fat chicks are ugly...this is a fact to me, because fat chicks are ugly...but to others fat chicks are hot, because everyone has different preferences. This can be applied to taste as well. I say that the taste of dumplings are disgustin'...but others say otherwise. As you can see to one person somethin' CAN be a fact even if it doesn't apply to everyone.

So suck it.

@Supreme Marvel said:

So if I say you're a child molester. Since it's my opinion, it's fact! ;)

To you...it would be fact to you. As I say you're a dumbass. To me it's true, but is it true to you?

@Durakken said:

Jason is and always has been a screw up, both for himself and others.

Yes, he is highly trained and better than most if not all the other Villains the Bat-family handles, but he is short sited, full of rage, doesn't know how to deal with anyone in a positive way. He's not a bad guy, but he has chosen... or rather was forced... on a hard path where he is willing to make that hard call to kill so that others don't.

The fight between Jason and Dick I would not call definitive simply because Jason didn't want to kill Dick and more than likely didn't want to be Batman. He likely was doing the same thing Tim was doing more or less, which was pushing Dick to be Batman and be Better because Jason views Bruce as the greatest person alive which is also where his angst comes from... Bruce is great, so then why didn't he kill Joker when Joker killed him.

Dick is the essence being trained to the point where he doesn't think anymore. You put him in a match with someone he knows what their moves are and all that he more than likely can beat them because he works on instinct and that means no thought and no hesitation. Even from a leadership standpoint the only reason he is such a good leader is because he views his team mates as extensions of himself and is a talker so all he has to do is switch from talking to the enemy to giving orders. This makes it look like he is more tactical minded than he is, but he's probably the easiest to defeat for the most trained fighters that don't rely solely on instinct.

Damian's problem is rage. He's a natural fighter and instinct based like Dick, but lacks the experience and has a ton of rage...and was trained to kill but tries not to. He's highly exploitable to anyone that picks up on this. He'll likely be better than Dick when he grows up, but I would say that he is currently slightly weaker than Jason overall simply due to Jason being an adult and having learned to use his anger.

If we're measure natural fighting talent Tim is 3rd below Dick and Damian, because he doesn't focus on it, but also because his physical training when he was younger was much less intense and focused so he simply isn't as developed in those areas. Where he excels how is tactics, strategy, thinking on his feet, analysis, and having a much larger and varied number of skills to draw from. And this is where people fall off in their understanding because if we equalized the 4 in everything other than simply execution and power it Tim would rank 2nd or 3rd behind Dick and maybe Damian (remember equalizing age) however, if we add figuring out weaknesses, strategizing, and executing that strategy... Tim becomes #1. Why? Simply because Tim only needs to survive long enough to figure something out and all of them can survive long enough in battle for that to occur. The difference is that Tim has more to draw on from training and is just better at figuring it out. That's another thing that people don't get....

Dick 1st student of Bruce, meaning Bruce made more mistakes when he taught him than the other 3 and Dick only trained via Bruce

Jason 2nd student, but didn't listen and wasn't under Bruce for long... and then trained by who we can guess taught the league of Assassin people who are inferior to the Bat-family.

Damian taught by league of assassin, and Dick which means he's getting Dick's mistakes as well as Bruce's with Dick

Tim was 3rd to be trained by Bruce which means Bruce was more refined in this case than the other 3. Tim also trained from Shiva who is highly refined and several other masters who are highly refined that only he was trained by plus all of Bruce's former master's. Then he also spent some time being trained by Dick and also competed against Oracle in terms of Cyber stuff.

So in terms of shear knowledge and ability outside of natural fighting talent Tim wins hands down. As Tim said to Ra's "I don't need to fight you. I already won"

I agreed with a lot of what you said up until you put Tim above Jason. You piqued my interest when you said to equal out all of their ages. But your explanation of what would happen was seriously flawed.

By equalin' out their ages Tim would only increase a very slight amount...(if he does at all)...because Tim's main focus...(and best asset)...would be his smarts. He wouldn't increase in physical stats because those aren't his strengths. Damian would extremely however, because to me he's a mix of Grayson and Jason. He has the agility, and the instincts...as well as the rage and savagery. And with added age he would become a force in the physical department. Jason and Grayson as well wouldn't improve much if at all in this.

Your Bruce's trainin' explanation was also a little flawed, as he trained Grayson when he was still in his prime, and what he knew was still fresh in his mind. These trainin' regimes would actually deteriorate over time as he would skip lessons that he thought he taught. Not to mention crime was more out of hand, givin' Bruce less time to teach as he came across his students.

So Grayson would have the most trainin' followed by a tie of what Jason and Tim knew...(because Jason spent less time with him, and Tim came later on). But Grayson also has his own fightin' style and is the only former to master what Bruce had to teach.

Jason may not had fully mastered what Bruce had to teach...but what he learned since his resurrection puts him pretty close to Grayson. As Jason learned from masters of the craft. And mastered what they taught to the point of bein' able to kill his teachers.

Tim on the other hand...(as I've said so many times)...hasn't mastered anything from anyone...(with the exception of one move that he can't use because his physical stats are too low to do it). He's book smarts...not street smarts, and this can be a good and bad thing. Because he'd try to stratigise with the unpredictable.

Damian was trained since birth, puttin' him on a path similar to Cassandra. He was trained by masters, as well as Grayson and Bruce.

If all of these Robin's were the same age Damian would be the victor.

Tim would lose first, as he would try to dodge and stratigise his way to victory...but his flaw again is that these are fighters that are on higher physical levels than himself. You can not dodge what is faster than you...(unless you're Cassandra Cain to a bullet)... And with his lack of endurance...he would be the first to fall.

I do not know who would win between Jason and Grayson as their stats are so even. But whichever one wins, that person would lose to Damian. Because with them bein' the same age, he'd have already increased his skills and stats, learned to control his rage, and use his skills properly.

@RainEffect said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@Durakken said:

Jason is and always has been a screw up, both for himself and others.

Yes, he is highly trained and better than most if not all the other Villains the Bat-family handles, but he is short sited, full of rage, doesn't know how to deal with anyone in a positive way. He's not a bad guy, but he has chosen... or rather was forced... on a hard path where he is willing to make that hard call to kill so that others don't.

The fight between Jason and Dick I would not call definitive simply because Jason didn't want to kill Dick and more than likely didn't want to be Batman. He likely was doing the same thing Tim was doing more or less, which was pushing Dick to be Batman and be Better because Jason views Bruce as the greatest person alive which is also where his angst comes from... Bruce is great, so then why didn't he kill Joker when Joker killed him.

Dick is the essence being trained to the point where he doesn't think anymore. You put him in a match with someone he knows what their moves are and all that he more than likely can beat them because he works on instinct and that means no thought and no hesitation. Even from a leadership standpoint the only reason he is such a good leader is because he views his team mates as extensions of himself and is a talker so all he has to do is switch from talking to the enemy to giving orders. This makes it look like he is more tactical minded than he is, but he's probably the easiest to defeat for the most trained fighters that don't rely solely on instinct.

Damian's problem is rage. He's a natural fighter and instinct based like Dick, but lacks the experience and has a ton of rage...and was trained to kill but tries not to. He's highly exploitable to anyone that picks up on this. He'll likely be better than Dick when he grows up, but I would say that he is currently slightly weaker than Jason overall simply due to Jason being an adult and having learned to use his anger.

If we're measure natural fighting talent Tim is 3rd below Dick and Damian, because he doesn't focus on it, but also because his physical training when he was younger was much less intense and focused so he simply isn't as developed in those areas. Where he excels how is tactics, strategy, thinking on his feet, analysis, and having a much larger and varied number of skills to draw from. And this is where people fall off in their understanding because if we equalized the 4 in everything other than simply execution and power it Tim would rank 2nd or 3rd behind Dick and maybe Damian (remember equalizing age) however, if we add figuring out weaknesses, strategizing, and executing that strategy... Tim becomes #1. Why? Simply because Tim only needs to survive long enough to figure something out and all of them can survive long enough in battle for that to occur. The difference is that Tim has more to draw on from training and is just better at figuring it out. That's another thing that people don't get....

Dick 1st student of Bruce, meaning Bruce made more mistakes when he taught him than the other 3 and Dick only trained via Bruce

Jason 2nd student, but didn't listen and wasn't under Bruce for long... and then trained by who we can guess taught the league of Assassin people who are inferior to the Bat-family.

Damian taught by league of assassin, and Dick which means he's getting Dick's mistakes as well as Bruce's with Dick

Tim was 3rd to be trained by Bruce which means Bruce was more refined in this case than the other 3. Tim also trained from Shiva who is highly refined and several other masters who are highly refined that only he was trained by plus all of Bruce's former master's. Then he also spent some time being trained by Dick and also competed against Oracle in terms of Cyber stuff.

So in terms of shear knowledge and ability outside of natural fighting talent Tim wins hands down. As Tim said to Ra's "I don't need to fight you. I already won"

I agreed with a lot of what you said up until you put Tim above Jason. You piqued my interest when you said to equal out all of their ages. But your explanation of what would happen was seriously flawed.

By equalin' out their ages Tim would only increase a very slight amount...(if he does at all)...because Tim's main focus...(and best asset)...would be his smarts. He wouldn't increase in physical stats because those aren't his strengths. Damian would extremely however, because to me he's a mix of Grayson and Jason. He has the agility, and the instincts...as well as the rage and savagery. And with added age he would become a force in the physical department. Jason and Grayson as well wouldn't improve much if at all in this.

Your Bruce's trainin' explanation was also a little flawed, as he trained Grayson when he was still in his prime, and what he knew was still fresh in his mind. These trainin' regimes would actually deteriorate over time as he would skip lessons that he thought he taught. Not to mention crime was more out of hand, givin' Bruce less time to teach as he came across his students.

So Grayson would have the most trainin' followed by a tie of what Jason and Tim knew...(because Jason spent less time with him, and Tim came later on). But Grayson also has his own fightin' style and is the only former to master what Bruce had to teach.

Jason may not had fully mastered what Bruce had to teach...but what he learned since his resurrection puts him pretty close to Grayson. As Jason learned from masters of the craft. And mastered what they taught to the point of bein' able to kill his teachers.

Tim on the other hand...(as I've said so many times)...hasn't mastered anything from anyone...(with the exception of one move that he can't use because his physical stats are too low to do it). He's book smarts...not street smarts, and this can be a good and bad thing. Because he'd try to stratigise with the unpredictable.

Damian was trained since birth, puttin' him on a path similar to Cassandra. He was trained by masters, as well as Grayson and Bruce.

If all of these Robin's were the same age Damian would be the victor.

Tim would lose first, as he would try to dodge and stratigise his way to victory...but his flaw again is that these are fighters that are on higher physical levels than himself. You can not dodge what is faster than you...(unless you're Cassandra Cain to a bullet)... And with his lack of endurance...he would be the first to fall.

I do not know who would win between Jason and Grayson as their stats are so even. But whichever one wins, that person would lose to Damian. Because with them bein' the same age, he'd have already increased his skills and stats, learned to control his rage, and use his skills properly.

That's actually a very interesting thought. Damian is, physically and intellectually, arguably the most complete out of all the proteges. However, he's also the most screwed up inside because of his upbringing. It's interesting to compare him to Cassandra, because he basically would have turned into a killing machine if Talia hadn't freed him from the League. Now he is going down the line of the proteges, but he has, arguably, the worst upbringing and it shows in his personality - he's a wanker. While each Bat member looked up to Bruce (and Jason, in my opinion, still does despite hating him for not killing the Joker, why else would he continue to wear the symbol), Damian, ironically, doesn't. He hates the reality of his old man, and he said it himself, he preferred him when he was dead as he was easier to imagine as a legend.

I know it is diabolical tripe that I'm about to quote, but it really is the truth. He's the "genetically perfect killer". Too bad he's a wanker.

He's flawed in that aspect because for the first 10 years of his life, he didn't know his father...he only had the image of what others knew in his head. But when you get to know Bruce, it's kinda hard to care too much for Batman, as they're different.

Furthermore I forgot to add to your other post. I too share the same view that Jason was only Batman to force Grayson to take up the mantle. He didn't want to be Batman, but he knew SOMEONE had to because the city needed it.

@Supreme Marvel said:

So if I say you're a child molester. Since it's my opinion, it's fact! ;)

I laughed so hard, I think I cracked a rib.

@Iron_Turtle said:

@Supreme Marvel said:

So if I say you're a child molester. Since it's my opinion, it's fact! ;)

I laughed so hard, I think I cracked a rib.

It's kinda weird that his first thought went to child molestation. I wonder why? Repressed memories anyone?

Opinions are personal facts. These are things you feel are true and have no contradictory evidence to dismiss it.
For instance...
some people say I'm a dick...to them this is true. While others say I'm funny...to them this is true. A personal belief is an opinion, as well as a personal fact. Another example. I think fat chicks are ugly...this is a fact to me, because fat chicks are ugly...but to others fat chicks are hot, because everyone has different preferences. This can be applied to taste as well. I say that the taste of dumplings are disgustin'...but others say otherwise. As you can see to one person somethin' CAN be a fact even if it doesn't apply to everyone.So suck it.

Ummmmmmmm, no... just no

There's no such thing as a "personal fact" only an opinion... for instance, some people say you are a dick, to them it's true, but it is still just an opinion... others say you are funny, to them this is true, but it's still just an opinion.

No matter how you spin it, opinions and facts are not the same thing, one is subjective the other is objective, they are complete antonyms and should always be treated as such.

And what's with the "suck it"? - that's only reserved for when a person has proven their point, you have merely made the claim that if someone believes something to be true, then to them it is a fact... whereas it is actually still just an opinion, no matter what their belief or opinion is.

I'm surprised this was never locked.

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

It's no secret that I hate Tim "(well, my favorite insult to use is Bitch-Made)" Drake, but people are always askin' me why. So I've decided to tell everyone here exactly why.

But before I do, I just want you all to know that...I don't give a f*** what you all think about him...(probably because I can't remember where my f***s are, so I can't give 'em because I can't find 'em). These are all MY opinions, which only make them facts to ME. You on the other hand...deal with it.

Now, let's dive right into it. I hate Tim for a multitude of reasons.

1. He's the least experience fighter in the bat-family. He isn't a master of anything.

2. He tries to follow in Jason's foot steps too much. I guess in some weird way to feel better he STOLE Jason's Red Robin costume and persona. 'Cause there's no explanation for this. He just up and had it one day...without Jason permission.

3. He's ALWAYS bitchin'. He bitched to become Robin...He bitched when Jason came back to life...He bitched when he thought Jason killed Dula Dent...He bitched when Jason was Batman...He bitched when Jason wanted to kill the person who stole his Red Robin costume the first time...And he bitched EVERY time Jason kicked his ass.

4. Damian Wayne already beat him up. He may not had won the fight to others, but if a 10 year old does that much damage to ANYteenager in a fight...The 10 year old won.

5. Number 3, and 4 prove Tim's a bitch. Which is why I always call him Tim "Bitch-Made" Drake.

I hate that puss so much I made a character called Tom Drake with VERY similar looks, character and story. DarcStorm keeps callin' him Drake Timmons though. But DarcStorm's gonna kill him in a VERY OVER THE TOP brutal death.

I hate him...I hate him-I hate him- I HATE him.

Fans of Tim's make it even easier to hate him because of the stupidity they bring to arguments about him. Like what I said earlier about the Red Robin thing for instance. When Jason stole Grayson's Nightwing costume and persona, fans were livid about this. Reason...because Jason was damagin' Grayson's character. Jason was usin' Grayson's identity to kill criminals, and that's NOT what Grayson does...so jea, there's a reason to be mad here. But when you turn the other cheek when Tim does this to Jason, it proves how blindly bias you really are. No-one seems to care that Tim has Stolen Jason's Red Robin costume and persona, but he's still damagin' Jason's character. Tim uses Jason's identity to stop and arrest criminals, and that's NOT what Jason does. So why aren't people upset about that?

Lookin' the other way when one of your favorite characters does somethin' you ripped into another character for doin' doesn't help your favorite character.

Now, keepin' with the whole "Tim fans bring stupidity to arguments", Tim fans for some reason...(I call it retardation)...believe that Tim can tie, and even beat Jason in one-on-one fights...which is BEYOND incredible dumbassery. So, lets go over some facts here.

Jason is stronger than Tim...this is non-negotiable, as Jason has proven that he's the strongest bat-son in the family.

Jason is more agile than Tim...And this is also true because Jason's agility is always compared to bein' only second to Grayson's.

Jason is faster than Tim...Jason's fightin' is always said to focus on speed and brutality, and it would be stupid to focus on a flaw instead of a strength. I also believe that Jason might be the fastest Bat-family member in terms of just speed (not agility).

Jason is a better martial artist than Tim...As proven that Tim hasn't mastered a damn, while Jason has mastered several...(at the very least 6)...fightin' styles.

Jason is more strategical than Tim...As even Bruce and Grayson have fallen for Jason's plans and Traps.

Jason utilizes gadgets better than Tim...This has no need to be explained.

Tim is more Intelligent than Jason...Book smart wise,That's it. Although Jason is more streets smart than Tim.

Jason is more endurable than Tim...As proven in every fight that they've had.

So when comparin' mental and physical stats between Jason and Tim...7 out of 8 go to Jason by HUGE margins. So how could Tim EVER hope to even tie with...(never mind beat)...someone who literally overshadows him in every aspect?...(except book smarts).

I hate when every Tim fan wants to say that Jason cheated to win fights when 2 things are there to disprove that.

1...How is it cheatin' to know how to use your surroundings to help you in a fight?, How is Jason cheatin' just because Tim doesn't know how to use his surroundings?

2...Jason and Tim's fights always start off hand-to-hand, one-on-one...but then TIM always grabs a weapon on Jason. So how could Jason cheat to win if he's just evenin' things out by usin' a weapon when Tim's uses a weapon. The fight in Titans Tower, Tim fans say that Jason had to gas Tim to win...but didn't Tim pull his Bo-staff out first...and STILL got his ass kicked for it?...JEA!! Then Jason and Tim's fight in Battle for the Cowl. Jason was chokin' Tim, and Tim again' used a weapon first when he grabbed that crowbar and hit Jason with it repeatedly, and when Jason used a weapon what happened...he dropped Tim's weak-self. And everybody said Jason cheated 'cause he used a batarang.

So my question here is...How is it cheatin' to use a weapon on a person who's usin' a weapon on you?

You see how stupid Tim fans are, because with all this proof...they STILL think I'm wrong.

Let's revisit my #4 comment again. There are 4 sons in the Bat-family which means rivalries will happen. But people seem to have the rivals all wrong. The rivalries should go Grayson vs Jason and Tim vs Damian. As this is the only way they compare, because in order to have a rival, you need to rival them in something.

Jason and Grayson have stats over each other Strength...Jason, Agility...Grayson, Speed... debatable who's fastest, Martial artist...I think it's tied. Jason has mastered more fightin' styles than Grayson...(to my knowledge)...but Grayson has his own fightin' style that no-one knows. Strategist...Jason, Intelligence...Grayson, and Durability would probably be a tie as well.

So when it comes down to it...these 2 are about even, makin' them rivals because they have stats over each other.

Tim and Damian are more the same way as Grayson and Jason because Tim and Damian have stats over each other as well. I think Damian is more agile, and has better martial arts trainin' than Tim. So while Tim has 1 stat over Jason...that doesn't make them rivals, because Damian has more than 1 over Tim.

But do Tim fans understand this?...no. They just try to make up excuses to maneuver around that FACTS that are said. And when they do this just remember the facts...and point and laugh at their moronic wishful thinkin'.

'Cause it's funny. And it's also why I hate Tim.

Which reminds me... http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/darcstorm/cause-its-funny/87-70295/

BUMP!!!! he's a piece of s..... snot!!

@Telcalipoca said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Durakken said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Durakken said:

@RainEffect said:

@SmoothJammin: @Rabbit_May_Cry:

Why that's precisely why I don't like him; he just doesn't seem flawed. I respect that he's made a name for himself throughout the DC Universe, I respect that other people respect him, but what irritates me the most is that he just seems too likable. Bear with me, I know that sounds ridiculous and I should be shot in the foot for it, but look at it this way. Bruce is one, if not the, most respected human being in the DC Universe. However, he has his flaws. He offends people by how emotionally-devoid/detached he is, and how dis-trusting he is towards others. He keeps secret countermeasures in case anyone turns (something he has modeled Tim to do, as seen in The List) and this offends people. Dick, on the other hand, pleases everyone. It's not a human quality, you can't please everyone. Sooner or later, one of your teammates is going to get pissed off at you.

I liked it when he slept with Huntress and that offended Barbara, it was one of the first times I've ever seen Dick face the concequence of a bad decision, because he never seems to make them. We're human, we make horrid decisions sometimes - it is how we learn and mature. I respect Dick's ability, I respect the name he has created for himself, but I don't respect his character.

Edit: After re-reading my post a couple of times, I realised something. The 'pleasing everyone' aspect I mentioned? I think the reason I hate it is because I used to try to be like that and it ended badly. I copped a lot of trash and I suppose there is some kind of sub-conscious bias. Sorry to go all Sigmund Freud, I'm just speculating.

I hate Dick Grayson because he messes up constantly and people still view him as a great guy who's flawless. He's an extremely broken character with him being raped, becoming a criminal, and killing Joker. The fact he continues to try to get out being in the shadow of the Bat shows his brokenness. Nightwing would be a great book to explore this but they refuse to... and only when he's Batman or when Bruce is dead can he really heal because of his view of Bruce... too bad that won't happen again ^.^

When did he kill Joker

Joker acted like he killed Tim and Dick bought it... and then he out right killed him. Bruce then seeing what Dick did resurrected Joker in the lazarus pit, not because he wanted Joker alive, but because he didn't want Joker's blood on Dick's hands.

I don't know where it happened, but I would guess it happened during the time Joker and Ra's teamed up.

WOW!! And he's a glorified hero

dick is flawed with a rage button that he cant control (reason why i like him) hes not all bright colors

as for what happened and where. during jokers last laugh the joker wanted robin dead and everyone on the bat family thought croc who was working for the joker had killed him.when learning this dick strangled the joker til he had no pulse. not wanting dick to have blood on his hands and letting joker win(the guy wanted it killed a bird and made a former one loose its path 2 wins) ressitated the joker.That isnt the first time dick has lost it when blockbuster killed every resident on dicks building after learning his identity he threaten to kill everyone he knew or even anyone who so much as greet him.All the while laughing thinking dick wouldnt kill him or allow tarantual to kill him because of his stupid code ,which was followed by dick moving to the right and letting tarantula take the shot right on blockbusters face.Then theres the time shriek got the drop on dick and used him as a pinata when he freed himself he gave shriek a few shots.He hit him without getting touched and went overboard with the hits needed to take him down.right before he was about to end shrieks life or coming close to it black canary yelled at dick to stop that made him snapp out of it and told shriek that twice youve almost made murderer.

Yes hes a hero whose come close to killing,allowed killing,killed but hey everyone looses it .i mean if hal can still be glorified then so can dick.

That's also why I think he's a BAMF and distinct from his mentor. There's also an instance near the end of his Nightwing ongoing where he's trying to rescue a witness from Two-Face but gets drugged in the process.. so Dick finds himself forced to fight his way out of her apartment building filled with Batman's rogues, or atleast what appeared to be them when in actuality they are hired thugs. He goes apeshit and blames the fear gas, deciding to kill off the very lifelike 'delusions' and catch up with Dent. He goes about it in such an enraged manner(I remember in one he violently shoves both escrima into Poison Ivy's ears); it's suggested that Dick inadvertently murdered the real men when he walks off through a puddle of blood and a heap of bodies.

Beneath the quirky demeanor and lovable charm, he's definitely one of the more sadistic ex-robins. I really want Higgins to explore that wild side of him. Also thought it was cool how Knight referred to him as a "rough and raucous little demon boy" in his robin days. You really have to think about it, spending all that time with Batman and having such a fractured upbringing, you can't really expect someone like that to be perfectly stable...

@Telcalipoca: He also "killed" Batwoman in Batman and Robin, and I might be mistaken but during his teen titan days I'm sure he went a step further dealing with otherworldly threats. In JLA 57-58 he formulated this awesome plan to have Saint Walker construct a sniper gun mounted up on a stand with his power ring, have Atom Man climb in the barrel and hide in the bullet, and use Congorilla(who is a trained marksman) to fire a shot into the brain of Shade. Truly a testament of his thinking skills and difference in approach to Bruce.

I feel like it should be pointed out that Damien is no mere ten year old. He's been bred since birth to lay the smackdown on Batman. But I'm not a large fan of Tim or Todd. My favorites of the Bat-sons are Dick and Damien. Mainly because Nightwing is a great series so far, with issue #2 being even better than #1, and I just love Damien for being a jerk.

@Supreme Marvel said:

So if I say you're a child molester. Since it's my opinion, it's fact! ;)

To you...it would be fact to you. As I say you're a dumbass. To me it's true, but is it true to you?

Everyone else thinks that now. So you're a child molester.

I'm fine by dumbarse. I'd rather be that than a child molester.

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@Iron_Turtle said:

@Supreme Marvel said:

So if I say you're a child molester. Since it's my opinion, it's fact! ;)

I laughed so hard, I think I cracked a rib.

It's kinda weird that his first thought went to child molestation. I wonder why? Repressed memories anyone?

I had many thoughts. But listening to you, seeing your reactions to other people's post. It's true. You are a child molester.

@Supreme Marvel said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@Iron_Turtle said:

@Supreme Marvel said:

So if I say you're a child molester. Since it's my opinion, it's fact! ;)

I laughed so hard, I think I cracked a rib.

It's kinda weird that his first thought went to child molestation. I wonder why? Repressed memories anyone?

I had many thoughts. But listening to you, seeing your reactions to other people's post. It's true. You are a child molester.

BB

@Rabbit_May_Cry: Hey I just wanted to state that if something is your opinion, it doesn't make it a fact to you, it makes it a truth. There is a difference.

:)

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

I agreed with a lot of what you said up until you put Tim above Jason. You piqued my interest when you said to equal out all of their ages. But your explanation of what would happen was seriously flawed.

By equalin' out their ages Tim would only increase a very slight amount...(if he does at all)...because Tim's main focus...(and best asset)...would be his smarts. He wouldn't increase in physical stats because those aren't his strengths. Damian would extremely however, because to me he's a mix of Grayson and Jason. He has the agility, and the instincts...as well as the rage and savagery. And with added age he would become a force in the physical department. Jason and Grayson as well wouldn't improve much if at all in this.

Your Bruce's trainin' explanation was also a little flawed, as he trained Grayson when he was still in his prime, and what he knew was still fresh in his mind. These trainin' regimes would actually deteriorate over time as he would skip lessons that he thought he taught. Not to mention crime was more out of hand, givin' Bruce less time to teach as he came across his students.

So Grayson would have the most trainin' followed by a tie of what Jason and Tim knew...(because Jason spent less time with him, and Tim came later on). But Grayson also has his own fightin' style and is the only former to master what Bruce had to teach.

Jason may not had fully mastered what Bruce had to teach...but what he learned since his resurrection puts him pretty close to Grayson. As Jason learned from masters of the craft. And mastered what they taught to the point of bein' able to kill his teachers.

Tim on the other hand...(as I've said so many times)...hasn't mastered anything from anyone...(with the exception of one move that he can't use because his physical stats are too low to do it). He's book smarts...not street smarts, and this can be a good and bad thing. Because he'd try to stratigise with the unpredictable.

Damian was trained since birth, puttin' him on a path similar to Cassandra. He was trained by masters, as well as Grayson and Bruce.

If all of these Robin's were the same age Damian would be the victor.

Tim would lose first, as he would try to dodge and stratigise his way to victory...but his flaw again is that these are fighters that are on higher physical levels than himself. You can not dodge what is faster than you...(unless you're Cassandra Cain to a bullet)... And with his lack of endurance...he would be the first to fall.

I do not know who would win between Jason and Grayson as their stats are so even. But whichever one wins, that person would lose to Damian. Because with them bein' the same age, he'd have already increased his skills and stats, learned to control his rage, and use his skills properly.

Based on what you have said I can only surmise you have never been in a fight or tried to master a skill, and are delusional. I'm also going surmise that you are young and like to cram for tests for school. Though all that is fairly common so it's easy to say. Saying that Bruce would have been a better teacher to Dick because his own training was "fresh in his mind" is laughable. People who are really good at things, and this applies to everything, are good because of repeated practice and understanding of what they are doing. Not because "oh i was told something and now I can puke it out whenever someone wants me to." Further, just because you have mastered something or know something or can understand something doesn't mean you teach it or express it to others so that they will be able to learn it and understand it. Some people are gifted with being able to teach people well and make those around them understand what they are saying, but not everyone can.

Dick Grayson learned from Bruce for 6 years while Bruce still hadn't mastered nor developed all of his skills and would have been his first attempt to teach himself and Dick when he taught Dick. That means that anything Bruce taught Dick was really rough and not perfected. And because of who dick only took what was taught to him by Bruce and never honed it.

Jason spent a 2 years with Bruce and never took training seriously. If you matched Dick and Jason in progression of training Jason likely would have been a year behind where he should have been. ie Jason at 2 years was likely Dick at 1 year. A year or 2 with the league of shadows probably would have focused him more, but even with the best or Trainers and best focus he had only had 2 years which place him at a Year 3 Dick, maybe a Year 4 in ability.

Tim spent 10 years training with Bruce, Dick, Oracle, Shiva, Cassandra, and at least 20 other masters. Most those masters have sharpened their fighting abilities and their ability to teach and Tim both understands and knows their techniques. He can mix and match and improve on them and in them there is mostly no worthless actions in them.

Damian is all instinct and doesn't understand the things he was taught. He doesn't understand how the skills he was taught work or why to do them and he was taught with a specific focus which means a lot of other skills or missing. Also comparing Damian to Cassandra is way off the mark. Cassandra had a pretty sick upbringing that honed her skills to the way she is. Damian did not.

Further, when I talk about natural fighting ability I am talking about physical attributes. It is known when someone practices something from a very young age they develop physically differently than a normal person which allows them to do certain things a normal person couldn't do. Dick and Damian both have unique bodies and they physically are superior to Bruce, Tim, and Jason. Like wise Damian is Superior to Dick for the same reason. In terms of their physical bodies. If Dick and Damian were to be given shifted to the same age and given the same experience (ie 6 years down the road of superheroing) and then you switched their bodies Dick would be able to perform his martial arts better in Damian's body rather than his own because Damian's body is developed for it better. Damian has this advantage, but it relies on so many other factors that it is negligible at the level they are all at.

Year one of each of their training, Damian would be #1 and Dick would be #2. Tim and Jason would be matched, with Jason having street experience and Tim having taken martial arts. As the years pass Jason would fall to 4th due to his lack of study and focus. Tim slowly rise above Dick, matching Dick with strategy and knowledge rather than just straight fighting... This is likely the case as they hit their 18th birthday, or Year 6 of their training. As they continue on Dick stabilizes at 3rd and Jason at 4th. Damian is a brute fighter as he gets older and relies more on brute power and skill and instinct and he largely stops training. Tim continues to grow because strategy and the defensive position makes you adapt and learn from your opponent so that by the time they are 25ish in age Tim surpasses Damian. By age 30 Tim surpasses Bruce. This is if they were all the same age... Tim has long surpassed Damian ever matching him. Dick has a massive experience advantage that Damian will never catch up till Dick is in his 50s and Damian in his late 20s, early 30s due to age slowing Dick down. And Jason is only a threat due to deadly weaponry and size advantage. Damian will be a big brute by the time he's 20 and Tim doesn't flinch at brute strength now so obviously Tim would win, especially in a head to head match up.

which "bat-son" is your favorite?

@Akoot: @Hunter114: Wait...so by havin' an opinion, that means it's true to you right? And aren't facts the truth? So doesn't that mean if you believe that somethin' is true, it's just a personal fact?...JEA!!

@sesquipedalophobe said:

I'm surprised this was never locked.

Myself included.

@FantasticMrInvisibleTorchThing said:

I feel like it should be pointed out that Damien is no mere ten year old. He's been bred since birth to lay the smackdown on Batman. But I'm not a large fan of Tim or Todd. My favorites of the Bat-sons are Dick and Damien. Mainly because Nightwing is a great series so far, with issue #2 being even better than #1, and I just love Damien for being a jerk.

I never said he wasn't. But others constantly try to portray Tim as some great fighter...but he was beat by 2 10 year olds so far.

@Durakken: Ok, the beginnin' was kinda off. I was agreein' with you somewhat in the middle, but then the way you wrapped it up just threw the entire statement in the trash.

Put it this way...Tim is smarter than Jason and Grayson. That is it...that's all, there's nothin' else he has the advantage in. They have him beat in every physical stat there is. I've said this before to prove this same point.

In a fight between a nerd and a bully, who wins?...The bully. Because the nerd is only smarter than the bully, that's it. Without a physical trait that he has over the bully, the nerd can never win. No matter how much plannin', no matter how much strategy he puts into his approach, no matter what he does...he can't match the bully in any physical trait and therefore loses.

It's like this...Say, Bill Gates, and Mark Wahlberg had a fight, who wins?...Mark Wahlberg. Because Bill's smarter for sure, but Mark clearly outmatches him in physical abilities. This is what happens in a Tim vs Jason...(or Grayson) fight in any time period. Because Tim never doesn't really work on his physical abilities as much as they do. So no matter how smart he is, he loses to their superiority.

Also, Damian wouldn't be just a Brute, he HAS trainin'.

@Regas13 said:

which "bat-son" is your favorite?

Jason, then Grayson, then Damian.

@everyone: You think my hatred for Tim is bad now...I've already started a comic for Tom Drake's death. I'll only post the death...later on though.

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@Durakken: Ok, the beginnin' was kinda off. I was agreein' with you somewhat in the middle, but then the way you wrapped it up just threw the entire statement in the trash.

Put it this way...Tim is smarter than Jason and Grayson. That is it...that's all, there's nothin' else he has the advantage in. They have him beat in every physical stat there is. I've said this before to prove this same point.

In a fight between a nerd and a bully, who wins?...The bully. Because the nerd is only smarter than the bully, that's it. Without a physical trait that he has over the bully, the nerd can never win. No matter how much plannin', no matter how much strategy he puts into his approach, no matter what he does...he can't match the bully in any physical trait and therefore loses.

It's like this...Say, Bill Gates, and Mark Wahlberg had a fight, who wins?...Mark Wahlberg. Because Bill's smarter for sure, but Mark clearly outmatches him in physical abilities. This is what happens in a Tim vs Jason...(or Grayson) fight in any time period. Because Tim never doesn't really work on his physical abilities as much as they do. So no matter how smart he is, he loses to their superiority.

Also, Damian wouldn't be just a Brute, he HAS trainin'.

Like I said, you obviously know nothing about fighting nor do you seem to know anything about the cannon of the DCU. Both eastern and western martial arts says the exact opposite of what you said and you continue to say Tim is only smarter than the others. He's not just smarter. He understands better. He knows more techniques. He can perform more techniques. And he applies what most eastern martial artist consider the ultimate form which is to win without fighting at all. He if we were applying eastern martial philosophy to the situation is the top fighter in the world. If we just go off of who he has taken. His first solo thing he beat someone who in cannon is supposed to be one of if not the top fighter in the world by simply out smarting him.

Now I don't want to psycho analyze you, but your liking Jason to such an extreme as to imply some sort of bond with him, and not a bond that is based on the actual character but one you made up in your head, indicates that perhaps some of the things that you are saying about Jason and why you dislike Tim is because of traits you see in yourself and traits that you are Jealous of in others. I could list a bunch of qualities that I'm pretty sure you have based on what you have said, but that would be wrong of me to do. Instead I would suggest that if you can you should seek out psychotherapy. I don't know if that is viable for you, but I would highly recommend it. I'm not saying you have problem for liking Jason and disliking Tim, but rather that your defense and attacks and skewed view of reality are indicators of something else not related to those characters.

I agree Tim Drake is the weakest of the Batman fam...

I used to really hate him... But playing with him in Arkham City made me like him a bit more.. he's pretty cool in the game..

In the comics? Not so much.

@MethodMan008: Damien is the weakest in the Bat-family. Not Tim.

@Rabbit_May_Cry: No, a truth and a fact are actually different things. I'm talking about "a truth" not "the truth."

You have to be very careful when using the word "fact" because facts are not flexible to opinions. Facts are only changeable by facts.

For example, you can find truth in religion, but not facts.

So it's acceptable to say "Because it is my opinion, it is a truth to me."

But saying "Because it is my opinion, it is a fact to me." just sounds really obnoxious and silly.

I'm trying to help you out, here.

@Supreme Marvel: Doh sorry. I didn't mean strength.. I mean, like as a character in general. Which is totally subjective, I know. :P

@MethodMan008 said:

@Supreme Marvel: Doh sorry. I didn't mean strength.. I mean, like as a character in general. Which is totally subjective, I know. :P

Very subjective because Tim is my favourite in the Bat-family. My 3rd favourite comic character.

@Supreme Marvel: Oh yeah totally, everyone's favorites are different for sure.

Tim is pretty freaking sweet in Arkham City if you are into video games. :)

@MethodMan008 said:

@Supreme Marvel: Oh yeah totally, everyone's favorites are different for sure.

Tim is pretty freaking sweet in Arkham City if you are into video games. :)

Playing it now. I got the Batman Beyond skin. So no Robin. ;( I'll get them all when they are released for DLC. Currently looking for Azazel.

@MethodMan008 said:

@Supreme Marvel: Oh yeah totally, everyone's favorites are different for sure.

Tim is pretty freaking sweet in Arkham City if you are into video games. :)

Playing it now. I got the Batman Beyond skin. So no Robin. ;( I'll get them all when they are released for DLC. Currently looking for Azrael.

What was fixed?

So this is a spite thread...

Seems like somebody put a lot of effort into the first post.

                   

So this is a spite thread...

                   

               

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

Based on what you have said I can only surmise you have never been in a fight or tried to master a skill, and are delusional. I'm also going surmise that you are young and like to cram for tests for school. Though all that is fairly common so it's easy to say. Saying that Bruce would have been a better teacher to Dick because his own training was "fresh in his mind" is laughable. People who are really good at things, and this applies to everything, are good because of repeated practice and understanding of what they are doing. Not because "oh i was told something and now I can puke it out whenever someone wants me to." Further, just because you have mastered something or know something or can understand something doesn't mean you teach it or express it to others so that they will be able to learn it and understand it. Some people are gifted with being able to teach people well and make those around them understand what they are saying, but not everyone can.

Dick Grayson learned from Bruce for 6 years while Bruce still hadn't mastered nor developed all of his skills and would have been his first attempt to teach himself and Dick when he taught Dick. That means that anything Bruce taught Dick was really rough and not perfected. And because of who dick only took what was taught to him by Bruce and never honed it.

Jason spent a 2 years with Bruce and never took training seriously. If you matched Dick and Jason in progression of training Jason likely would have been a year behind where he should have been. ie Jason at 2 years was likely Dick at 1 year. A year or 2 with the league of shadows probably would have focused him more, but even with the best or Trainers and best focus he had only had 2 years which place him at a Year 3 Dick, maybe a Year 4 in ability.

Tim spent 10 years training with Bruce, Dick, Oracle, Shiva, Cassandra, and at least 20 other masters. Most those masters have sharpened their fighting abilities and their ability to teach and Tim both understands and knows their techniques. He can mix and match and improve on them and in them there is mostly no worthless actions in them.

Damian is all instinct and doesn't understand the things he was taught. He doesn't understand how the skills he was taught work or why to do them and he was taught with a specific focus which means a lot of other skills or missing. Also comparing Damian to Cassandra is way off the mark. Cassandra had a pretty sick upbringing that honed her skills to the way she is. Damian did not.

Further, when I talk about natural fighting ability I am talking about physical attributes. It is known when someone practices something from a very young age they develop physically differently than a normal person which allows them to do certain things a normal person couldn't do. Dick and Damian both have unique bodies and they physically are superior to Bruce, Tim, and Jason. Like wise Damian is Superior to Dick for the same reason. In terms of their physical bodies. If Dick and Damian were to be given shifted to the same age and given the same experience (ie 6 years down the road of superheroing) and then you switched their bodies Dick would be able to perform his martial arts better in Damian's body rather than his own because Damian's body is developed for it better. Damian has this advantage, but it relies on so many other factors that it is negligible at the level they are all at.

Year one of each of their training, Damian would be #1 and Dick would be #2. Tim and Jason would be matched, with Jason having street experience and Tim having taken martial arts. As the years pass Jason would fall to 4th due to his lack of study and focus. Tim slowly rise above Dick, matching Dick with strategy and knowledge rather than just straight fighting... This is likely the case as they hit their 18th birthday, or Year 6 of their training. As they continue on Dick stabilizes at 3rd and Jason at 4th. Damian is a brute fighter as he gets older and relies more on brute power and skill and instinct and he largely stops training. Tim continues to grow because strategy and the defensive position makes you adapt and learn from your opponent so that by the time they are 25ish in age Tim surpasses Damian. By age 30 Tim surpasses Bruce. This is if they were all the same age... Tim has long surpassed Damian ever matching him. Dick has a massive experience advantage that Damian will never catch up till Dick is in his 50s and Damian in his late 20s, early 30s due to age slowing Dick down. And Jason is only a threat due to deadly weaponry and size advantage. Damian will be a big brute by the time he's 20 and Tim doesn't flinch at brute strength now so obviously Tim would win, especially in a head to head match up.

2. He tries to follow in Jason's foot steps too much. I guess in some weird way to feel better he STOLE Jason's Red Robin costume and persona. 'Cause there's no explanation for this. He just up and had it one day...without Jason permission.

Fans of Tim's make it even easier to hate him because of the stupidity they bring to arguments about him. Like what I said earlier about the Red Robin thing for instance. When Jason stole Grayson's Nightwing costume and persona, fans were livid about this. Reason...because Jason was damagin' Grayson's character. Jason was usin' Grayson's identity to kill criminals, and that's NOT what Grayson does...so jea, there's a reason to be mad here. But when you turn the other cheek when Tim does this to Jason, it proves how blindly bias you really are. No-one seems to care that Tim has Stolen Jason's Red Robin costume and persona, but he's still damagin' Jason's character. Tim uses Jason's identity to stop and arrest criminals, and that's NOT what Jason does. So why aren't people upset about that?

The OP is filled with fail.

Tsk-tsk...

Why does the fact that Tim Drake isn't the greatest fighter in the Batfamily make him a bad character? He's the best bo-staff in the Batfamily. Also, Damian is the weakest link the Batfamily, or maybe Steph. Regardless, Tim is the smartest of the Batboys, probably second only to Bruce in detective skills. As for the whole "Tim stealing Jason's identity", Jason stole Dick Grayson's identity and besmirched it, Tim took on the Red Robin role, and brought the honor back to it. As for Tim Drake's "bitching"... He never bitched when he became Robin, he was happy to be in the role. He never bitched when Jason came back to life, even then, Jason tried to KILL Tim. He never bitched when Jason became Batman, because he was destroying everything his mentor stood for. He never bitched when Jason wanted to kill that guy who stole the RR costume, he just was preventing Jason from killing someone. Seriously, why hate a fictional character so much? Just chill out.

@Supreme Marvel:

Ah, so this is the anti-Tim Drake post that had people ruffled. I don't see why other than the aggressive tone. If anything he makes a really good point: Tim stole Jason's costume. And for what? Why? Why would he follow Jason's footsteps? That was never well explained and was stupid and still is. Tim Drake is awesome, but he should not be "Red Robin." At this point I wouldn't even have him be "Red [anything]" because it's too much like Red Hood. He deserves his own moniker.

As for the OP's other points about Tim, well, he's at least as competitive in combat as other Bat-kicks and his other strengths make him an awesome magnificent bastard of a character, so I don't think he's a worse character for not being the "tough" Robin.

**I used this for another Post in which I responded to someone else who disliked Tim, I will use it here because I feel it suits the occasion!**

I feel that Tim is being a bit under played because of personal views on the character. I've followed Tim his entire life in comics and I've seen what he's been through. To me personally he is the most fleshed out character in the batman family. Dick was the first and so he is the most familiar by default and Jason was basically meant to be a clone of Dick, them being older than Tim Drake should play a factor because they have more experience and are physically stronger due to them being of a more advanced age then Tim. I just personally feel like the only disadvantages Tim has is his age in this topic. I also believe he would be just as good as any former Robin if he was with batman and extensively trained as long as they were, except he would stomp all three of them in raw detective potential. As far as comics go Tim's character had the most depth of all Robin's and the most realistic situations for a young boy with such a big responsibility and secret on his shoulders, hiding things like constant bruises from his friends, family and teachers. Trying to maintain relationships, being sexually aroused by older heroins, out of all the Robin's he is just a more relative character. Also it should be noted that he is the longest standing robin while Grayson was sort of fast forwarded in order to facilitate his Nightwing persona and Jason Todd was killed off by fan's. It also should be stated that he is the only Robin to ever get his own series. His ongoing series was a good one he did everything from team up with the Huntress to taking on the likes of the KG beast and Shiva. Tim Drake is not necessarily a weak Robin he's a different kind of robin and always was. While Dick and Jason were mainly only able to truly master the physical attributes of their training and be good detectives through experience, Tim is a natural with detective skills and is still considered a master combatant with plenty of room to grow as he grows. Damien Wayne is a natural fighter but he is dumb, and just because he's a more aggressive combatant does not mean he'll own Tim when he get's older. Age will be on Tim's side in that scenario just like age is on Dick and Jason's side over Tim. I have looked over this discussion and I just feel like Tim is being compared to two Robin's who physically should be better than him through age and experience, but this being used as a reason to make Tim appear weak is unfair especially if you saw everything he went through in the original Robin series run. I think Tim has improved a lot, look for him to start besting a lot of people soon if he's handled properly.

@Rabbit_May_Cry: While I don't particularly have a problem with Tim, you make a very impressive argument against him.

Wow, you must feel like a fool to be affected so much by a what? A COMIC BOOK CHARACTER.

Also, the first time Tim and Damian fought, Damian caught him off guard atop of that T-Rex, while Tim was trying to be cordial with the brat.

But if you read Red Robin 14, Tim beat the snot out of him.

Good day and Happy Halloween!

What was fixed?

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@Supreme Marvel said:

What was fixed?

you called him Azaezel which is another name for Satan, i changed it to Azrael. no big deal just me being freakish.

Blame my computer. Predicted text. So I have to make sure it's off.