This is a conversation between
and I (anti-DCNU) from another Tim Drake thread. I thought it was substantive enough to warrant its own thread, and I believe it gives good insight into the two different perspectives on Tim Drake's recent changes. However, if mods want to shut it down, I understand.Mister Ketch's words are the ones in bold.
I really don't get all the New 52 Tim Drake hate.
We do not hate Tim Drake; we hate that Tim Drake is being written in a subpar manner.
He formed the teen titans in an effort to stop the murder/enslavement of teen meta's from Harvest.
Yeah, so? I do not thing anybody doubts that Tim’s motivations are noble. Rather, we are saying he has been poorly written You can take a basic premise and write either a good story or complete crap. Lodbell’s work has not been complete crap (except for issue ten), but neither is it good.
Superboy mentions that if Tim was fighting to kill he might have beat him.
I do not recall that. Can you provide a source?
If that is the case, then that is just another sign of Lodbell’s poor writing because Tim could never have beat Superboy in a straight up fight. Perhaps with lots of prep or a sneak attack, but he could never take Superboy out in a non-prepared straightforward battle. Regardless, Tim’s fighting prowess is not what makes him a beloved character. The truth is closer to the opposite actually.
He still is an amazing computer hacker, this is shown throughout Titans, not to mention that he is apparently a tech genius with that awesome set of retractable/indestructible wings he has.
Again, you seem to think that making Tim formidable is what old-school fans want. That is not it at all. We want a story that well represents Tim’s character and history…not a story which makes Tim an unstoppable juggernaut.
Let me provide an example to illustrate my point, a writer, in order to make Batman more formidable, could write a story wherein Bruce Wayne becomes exposed to radiation and turns into a giant purple Hulk like being with magical powers, super strength, and telepathy. In this new iteration of Batman, Bruce would battle his arch nemesis Spawn of Frankenstein.
Though this new version of Bruce Wayne would certainly be formidable, nobody would consider this a good Batman story because it is not true to the nature and history of the character. It undermines his style and heritage. The same is true (to a much lesser degree) with the current portrayal of Red Robin.
Batman clearly states in this issue that he believes Tim has as much innate detective ability as himself he simply got to him first this time (Which makes more sense, as someone commented earlier if someone is looking into Batman, batman's probably going to know about it)
This portrayal of Tim undermines Tim’s individuality, intelligence, and compassion. Before, Tim was the only Robin to discover Bruce’s identity. He was smart enough to figure out that Batman had gone nuts because of the death of Jason, and he compassionately volunteered to take Jason’s place simply to help Bruce. It does make sense that Bruce would be aware of Tim’s research and would try to throw him off, but that whole element of the story would have been unnecessary if they had stuck with the original origin for Tim discovered Bruce’s identity through memory, deduction, and observation more than research. The original origin was better for many reasons, but to name only one it, provided a tangible link between Bruce, Dick, and Tim all based on nobility and sacrifice. Now, Tim is nothing more than a smart kid who is obsessed with proving himself to be the best. He demonstrates no compassion and there is little to set him apart from his peers.
He's a complete bad a**.
His suit is completely bad a**. Tim is a bit of a boob now. He risks his life in an overwhelmingly stupid maneuver to attract Batman’s attention in manner which he should have obviously known would have endangered his and his families’ lives. Furthermore, he somehow believes he will be accepted by Batman by doing such an arrogant, foolish, and reckless thing. The only reason Tim’s plan actually worked is because Lobdell is a sloppy writer.
Furthermore, Tim has had a less than spectacular run on Teen Titans. In every battle, the team runs around ignoring Tim’s orders. The team is so sloppy that Superboy wipes the floor with them even though they should have been able to beat him if they had just coordinated. Tim reveals his secret identity to his fellow Titans even though he just met them. He endangers the life of his team to save the presumably evil Superboy. It appears that he manages to disrupt the operations of NOWHERE, but it turns out that this was all a part of Harvest’s plan anyway, so in the first seven issues, Tim accomplished essentially nothing except to assemble a team which works poorly together. After the Culling, Tim gets his team lost in time. He then allows his team to nearly be ripped apart by Wonder Girl because he apparently never vetted his teammates before assembling them.
He is also a bit of a tool. Again, his primary interest in becoming Batman’s sidekick is to prove his own self-worth. If he did not endanger his parents’ lives through incompetence, then he did it through arrogance and callousness. He regularly snaps at his fellow Teen Titans for not living up to his expectations even though he is never seen making any effort to train them as a team or interact with them socially.
Oh boo hoo Tim knows gymnastics now... REALLY FANBOYS?!
Stop the condescension. It is unbecoming and beneath the standard that most on Comicvine try to hold.
Its a completely necessary skill for a bat ally to have this was only helping to set up Tim as someone who can stand as batman's sidekick.
Honestly, Tim’s acrobatic abilities are the least of my concern with Lobdell’s handling of the character. The only problems with Tim knowing gymnastics is that:
A. It further undermines his individuality by making him more like Grayson, and
B. It destroys the struggle he had to undergo to become such a great fighter which was one of the things many loved about Tim. He was never the best fighter, so he had to use his brain to survive.
Tim Drake was great, this issue was AMAZING. He didn't want to be Robin because of Jason (fits with Tim's personality) he was a genius teenager who got complete support from his parents (aka he was cocky and thought that pure ability would make things work out with stealing from the penguin)
I’m not sure how that makes him amazing. That just makes him a tool in my book, but if you idolize the cockiness and recklessness, that is your prerogative.
This issue was a coming of age for him, he starts by saying "id even consider an unpaid internship" to bats, hes a cocky teen who things he's invincible (like we all do at that age) who then fucks up and get his life rearranged and parents almost killed, he now has to live with that. This is fantastic back story and fuel for this character.
Yes, Batman punishes Tim’s stupidity and hubris by giving Tim exactly what he wants. Genius plan there Bruce and Lobdell.
Again, one of the best elements of old Tim’s character is that he was cautious and careful. Here, he is just the opposite.
Tim Drake is one of the best written comic book characters out there because he's perfectly portrayed as a human, he acts and reacts according to who he is in this world.
Yes he is a human. He is an arrogant human, but quite frankly, his actions in Teen Titans #0 more befit a villain than a hero. Endangering lives for personal gain? Sounds like villainy to me. Of course, that is presuming Tim knew that he was risking his parents’ lives and not just being stupid.
Your b****** and moaning about NOTHING. Its like baseball fans whining when there team gets knocked out of the playoffs, The current story lines and characters may have changed but the stories you loved STILL HAPPENED BECAUSE YOU LOVE THEM, if you want to reread the same situations and the same relationships endlessly THEN REREAD YOUR FAVORITE COMICS. Everyone who yells about DC changing decades of story lines needs to get over it, yeah somethings are easier to swallow then others, but DC wants to make money people they want to be around in 10 years not down to a handful of comic books each month pushing bankruptcy all because there "fans" need 70 years of backstory for each character.
Stop buying the comics if you don't like them that's the only thing DC is going to respond to, and if your not paying for them in the first place then stfu your reading free comics and don't get the right to bitch about it.
Again, your condescension and belligerence are strikingly rude.
If you like the stories, more power to you. I do not hate on you for enjoying them. I do not think these stories are without merit; some are very good.
By the same token, please respect my right, and the right of those like me, to expect more from the writers at DC. Yes, these stories might be fairly good to a new reader, but we are not all new readers, and though I think most of us are open to at least some change, we do not want these changes to be made unnecessarily, and we certainly do not want them to be bad changes.
Tim being an acrobat? That is an okay change.
Tim’s parents being alive? That seems a bit unnecessary, but it is not necessarily a bad change.
Tim is now wearing bargain bin Iron Man armor? That is not true at all the character’s style or history and is therefore a bad change.
Tim is a reckless, arrogant, tool? That is a horrible change.
You are free to disagree, but do not insult those that disagree with you.
For the record, I would drop Teen Titans in a heartbeat. I gave it more than a generous run, and I am majorly disappointed. I hate the idea that my money is encouraging DC to continue to let Lodbell write Teen Titans. However, I am about to open a website dedicated to news, reviews, and commentary of the Batman universe, so I will not be dropping Teen Titans. I do, however, hope that most fans give up on this book until a more talented writer takes the helm.
Mister Ketch's Response
In this section, Mister Ketch (pro-DCNU) is regular text, and I (anti-DCNU) am bolded.
Wow this was certainly interesting to see pop up in my inbox.
First off addressing @PsychoKnights comments on my rude/angry/condescending language in my original comments. I first posted what I did after reading through 3+ pages of people mostly speaking negative of the new Tim largely based around his new gymnastic background without any other rational or intelligent point to it. I posted in a slightly upset mind set and rereading my comments with a clear head I can def see that it comes off as jerky behavior which I know only hurts any point im trying to make.
On that note I really appreciate you putting this together, on the whole I'd say you definitely put together a very logical argument on the new and old Tim's and obviously have given this more thought and form what I can tell read the zero issue and the titans run with an open mind (a certain amount of bias is expected given your experience with the pre new 52 Tim)
First off regarding Superboy vs Tim, the image on the right has the scene I was talking about. I will wholeheartedly agree that in a straight one on one fight Tim shouldn't have much of a chance, I will say that I think this was Lobdell trying to make sense out of Tim leading a meta team against meta hunters. Superboy vs Red Robin is the same pointless argument as Batman vs Superman (pointless in that it will always come down to opinion about the characters) so I don't think we need to talk about it anymore I just wanted to share my source for a point I brought up to address what I felt were people saying the new Tim was lacking. Your juggernaut batman point clearly shows that Tim capability is not your issue.
I’m not sure how that makes him amazing. That just makes him a tool in my book, but if you idolize the cockiness and recklessness, that is your prerogative.
I don't "Idolize" it, I find given his background, age and abilities what he did made sense,and yes I understand a large part of that is based on the new Tim Drake so this should be seen as defending Lobdell's writing. Its a different Tim Drake, and in my opinion a more realistic Tim Drake in line with his characters actual age, he's not some incredibly emotionally mature teenager, becoming Robin is a means to an end for him at the beginning of this issue, he doesn't consider the life or death consequences of what he is trying to do, the zero issue is a coming of age story explaining what he has gone through in becoming Red Robin.
Yes, Batman punishes Tim’s stupidity and hubris by giving Tim exactly what he wants. Genius plan there Bruce and Lobdell.
Yes Bruce could have said screw you Tim your going to be living with your parents now, and yes Tim did get what he wanted but he knew he messed up, he has to live with almost getting his parents killed that night. I'll also bring up Jason Todd, I've heard explanations for Bruce making him Robin because he knew if he didn't Jason would just be another criminal one day, perhaps the same logic can be attributed to this situation.
Tim reveals his secret identity to his fellow Titans even though he just met them.
Agreed, there is no excuse for this. Bruce would have definitely taught him better.
He endangers the life of his team to save the presumably evil Superboy.
Agreed, Solstice was the only one who seemed to think he was more then just an evil soldier. It would have made more sense if Tim and the team invaded Harvest's base and then found out otherwise instead of this being the precipitating reason.
It appears that he manages to disrupt the operations of NOWHERE, but it turns out that this was all a part of Harvest’s plan anyway,
That is an exageration and totally not fair to Tim or Lobdell, on your logic every heroic adventure needs to be preempted with the thought of "am I secretly playing into the hands of the villain? I have no clue so I guess I shouldn't do anything"
After the Culling, Tim gets his team lost in time
Another exaggeration, it is not Tim's fault this happened, they escaped the colony in the best/only way they had available to them. The better point would be to criticize Lobdell introducing a weird supernatural island for all of one issue then leaving it without an explanation or even something interesting to want readers to see it again.
He then allows his team to nearly be ripped apart by Wonder Girl because he apparently never vetted his teammates before assembling them.
We have no reason to believe that her origin her boyfriend or the nature of her armor could be something he would know about, even in the real world running a back ground check only gives you information on what has been recorded. I'm going to wait until this arc is over before judging Tim's judgment on the Wonder Girl issue.
@Avenging-X-Bolt , Give it a chance, keep an open mind and you might find something you like if not love about it.
I've seen a lot of comments for Titans and other New 52 comics that lead me to believe that there are fans out there who have refused to give any of the titles a chance entirely because of the "New" in New 52 and I am a firm believer that you will always find something to hate about something you've chosen not to like/accept. Like I said above you seem to me to be keeping an open mind all things considered and didn't go into this expecting to hate it. After reading your arguments I think that this just comes down to a difference in opinion on what we like in characters/story structure etc etc and your points are certainly valid to your perspective.
Log in to comment