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    Thor #8

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    GalacticFork

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    #51  Edited By GalacticFork
    @asgaard said:

    @galacticfork:

    Angela last issue had a real twist, that no one could predict, i never could guess that Sera was... Just because you read Angela last issue, i will try not be so harsh on my post, and don't be offended by the Thordis name, in my perceptive fits the new character,

    I'm not offended... I just think it's silly. Oh, but please explain why it "fits the new character?" What is your reasoning for calling her Thordis instead of Thor? But hey... Since we're calling folks things they were called in alternate earths, I guess I'll just go the earth 9047 route and call Odin Shmoden and Odinson Sore.

    Note: I put the rest of the quotes under spoiler blocks to save space.

    but wait... she also toss the hammer away from Asgard and Heimdall didn't saw that? Sera never entered in Asgardia besides when she was captured by Thor in the last issue, (she was captured no real threat) this are different situations,

    He probably did see Mjolnir flying away... but did he actively choose to spy on the thrower? As I said, she wasn't a threat, so why spy on her? He doesn't see everything within Asgardia at once. He can see anything in Asgardia or anywhere else if he wants to, but he has to focus on it.

    And it doesn't matter if Sera ever entered Asgardia. She was Malekith. An actual threat to Asgardia. Someone Heimdall should be keeping tabs on, and someone he was keeping tabs on in the Thor books. No matter where Malekith was, Heimdall would be able to see him when he chose. And had much much much more reason to keep an eye on Malekith than Thor. Yet, you demand he must have seen Thor's transformation, but don't imagine he ever said... "Hmmm I wonder what Malekith is doing... I should look. Huh? Why do I keep seeing this random angel lady whenever I look for Malekith? And why is she hanging out with Shmoden's daughter. Maaaaybe this could be important!" Nope.

    if you think Thordis entering and leaving Asgard all the time without Heimdall notice is acceptable...OK but don't forget about what is Heimdall purpose for Asgard and that he has to report to Odin to make sure Asgard's security isn't compromised...

    He probably did see her leaving and entering Asgardia. But that doesn't mean he ever watched her transformation. In order to know who Thor was he would have to A) actively watch her transform, or B)presumably try to look for Jane or Thor and see the other. The most you could say is he almost definitely knew she spent a lot of time in Asgardia. And he knew she wasn't a threat so security wasn't compromized. So no reason to report to Shmodin

    I do agree that "all seeing" characters can make any writing flawed...If they really could see everything no plan should work, but Gillen plot was a lot more elaborated and more solid than Aaron's, that didn't even care for any justification for the reader, even recently Loki also had to use tricks to fool Heimdall, Al Ewing also had the preoccupation to not ignore Heimdall character main purpose...

    Except at least Aaron took Heimdall's sight into consideration with regard to the identity of the transforming person. Heimdall was a much more active player in Angela, and the author never considered Malekith is on "Asgardia's most wanted" list.

    Understand that the enchantment has to be acknowledged in the Asgardian perspective, if not you make the same mistake from who doesn't understand why Cap (AAU) was not worthy in that party, because he will be worthy in battle in Infinity War, he is as heroic as Thor but doesn't have Thor/Asgardian warrior spirit DNA, so it's not so easy for him to be worthy in every situation, the enchantment also works like this in comics, Beta Ray Bill character qualities were? Deny that Odin and Asgard have different perceptions of "life" is absurd, and takes away all the purpose of Asgard in any kind of story...

    I will try make it simple, you have to be worthy before wield Mjolnir not after, Aaron didn't build a solid plot, where he could prove that Jane was worthy before she wield Mjolnir, doesn't feel that she is worthy in the Asgardian perspective, her current disease was easy writing that fits more the human beliefs, Jane character had ups and downs in the canon, for now justify her current worthiness with her current disease and the refutation for magic feels contradictory, and just to convenient to fit the new creative decisions (female version of Thor), only when this story ends i can reply to your quote, this kind of writing is so tricky that i really don't want to run any future path/scenario, just wait...

    The very first introduction of Sore has him wielding the hammer without ever showing "why he was worthy." But as the story goes, you see the type of person he is. You're basically suggesting the entire Thor saga is poisoned because they didn't do that with the original Thor either. Actually, Jane has a much larger history than Sore had within the comics before he wielded Mjolnir. In the time she actively had power, she used it to join Sore on adventures, fighting trolls and saving Sore's life even. She also helped out in Marvel's Civil War as a Doctor.

    Heck, Sore's first use of Mjolnir in the comics was an act of self defense, not even knowing what the stick he grabbed was for. At least Jane knew she was using the hammer to go into battle to help other people and not just herself. That seems much more impressive.

    Blake was a creation of Odin used to teach Thor humility, Jane is a real character with her own identity, the female version of Thor required a very different execution, Mjolnir only gives you the Power of Thor, this plot should at least try to explain Jane's transformation and give Thordis her own characterization, and why this scenario only happened now, theories are just theories, and the mystery was so weak that can't be justification for everything, again just feels convenient to fit the new direction, Aaron's plot left to much stuff without any explanation, and i could understand that if this were only 4 issues but 8? He had all the time he needed to build a solid execution before Secret Wars, some of you explanations/justifications surpass Aaron's writing intentions, giving some terrible decisions a more positive vibe, but the flaws are still there...

    I see... You've completely ignored Eric Masterson. I know you don't like him, but your taste doesn't decide canon. You can't pick and choose which parts of history apply. But anyway, D'argo, Beta Ray Bill, and Eric all transformed when they wielded the power of Thor. If I remember right, even Loki got a nice change in armor. So, her transforming is hardly new or needs justification.

    And you can say she wasn't characterized over and over and over, but she really was. Both internally and externally. I've pointed out examples in the past. I honestly think you're blinded by the flowery Asgardian font and ignore the words that she has actually said.

    As for the mystery, well lots of people were still convinced it was Roz until the reveal, so take it up with them, and as I said above:

    "for me the main draw was how the characters reacted to the mystery. So you had Sore using it as a distraction to take his mind off his own current suckitude, Freyja using her as an inspiration and a masthead for her conflicts against Shmodin, and Shmodin pissed that his hammer enchantment has "grown beyond him" and using Thor as the focal point for his dissatisfaction regarding the obedience that seems to be lacking."

    And the story isn't over. Do you always need information right away instantly, or do you accept that stories provide mysteries and explanations over time?

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    Asgaard

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    @galacticfork:

    You just repeated yourself and English is at best my third language (sorry for some grammar mistakes in this and the past interactions) but i like to write my thoughts acknowledging the all picture, cut clips like this isn't for me, i know that other users also use this technic but i really dislike this kind of replies that try to destroy context...

    When only now Mjolnir is a character and gave Jane more than Thor's power, and you say that her transformation doesn't need any justification, i have no interest in continue this debate, why did we lost time with that "Strange" theories? For the record i still think that due Jane's current weakness Mjolnir access Thor life force that Dr. Strange use to repair the hammer, Eric and Dargo were crappy stories that didn't work like BRB, but also had very different executions from the character Mjolnir, Odin sealed bla bla bla... You know that and why do have to repeat that Blake wasn't a real character like Jane? Is that hard to understand that some old stories don't hold up and become lame? Blake didn't translate to live action, and Fraction also got rid of him...I have nothing else to say you clearly know why i really dislike Aaron's current writing...

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    GalacticFork

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    #53  Edited By GalacticFork

    @asgaard: Her transformation doesn't need justification because transformation is common. The other details, her speech pattern changing while she's Thor, the growth of the enchantment, and Mjolnir acting more as a character are all new developments that are acknowledged in the story. They don't need justification either. They are plot points to be addressed. But so often you treat these as mistakes or inconsistencies and not a growth in the story. Stories grow over time.

    It does not matter what you think of Eric, and D'argo. They happened. They are canon. Your opinion cannot change history. I wish mine could, but it can't either. The creators can change history, like:

    The fact back in Thor 470s and 480s it was revealed that Blake was a real live person all along, and Thor was living inside him until his first transformation back, and Odin pulled Thor out and left the real Blake in stasis. But Loki's wife, Sigyn went and fiddled with Blake and killed him, and she left a construct in its place. It's true. Pardon the cell phone pic:

    No Caption Provided

    Later, future writers kinda ignored that whole reveal as a lie.

    As for the Blake thing, I was trying to point out you are creating rules that you decide failure to meet "goes against the very purpose of the Asgard and the Gods" and conveniently only have one Thor to apply it to. So often it seems like you make up rules to justify your hatred of the new stuff.

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    md1292

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    I really like Jason Aaron as a writer. The entirety of his initial Thor run was masterful (especially the first and second volumes of "God Butcher" and "Godbomb"). When Marvel revealed a new Thor, I was ok with it because he was still the writer, and threads were sown in his initial run that would continue into this one. That being said, this was a letdown of a reveal.

    Not even taking into account that I was hoping for Roz Solomon. Imo, the era of Jane Foster has long since been over. She was interesting in the Donald Blake era as a way of humanizing Thor and she was integral in him truly coming to love Midgard. However for the past few years, she hasn't been a factor; not in the comics and she's been lackluster in the MCU. I have enjoyed the new Thor, if only for the internal monlogues being humorous, and since it seems like she'll be around for a while, I'll tolerate her. However, if another solo series is made after Secret Wars is over, I don't know if I'll pick it up.

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