WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A GOD IN MARVEL?

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Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio

What does it mean to be a god in marvel? many comic fans nowadays think gods are just advanced aliens. while this may be true in the MCU it is not true of the gods in comics. Before we get into the gods unique physiology lets explain what magic is.

MAGIC (FOR THE MOST) PART IS SCIENCE WE DONT UNDERSTAND

if you read my debates alongside @zetsumoto about magic in the MCU you know that I believe magic is a spiritual science. Why is this? Magic is something that can be studied in the form of spell books and replicated time and again with spells, it can also be used to enchant objects and in many cases can be mixed with technology (Doom's armour, the destroyer armour, sorcerer supreme stark, ect). Magic and science have counterparts in common:

Spell books=formulas

Spells/enchantments=programming

So yes, magic is an ascended form of science... for the most part. why do I say for the most part? because unlike science, magic at its core is faith and story, as so eloquently explained by Dr Doom here in loki agent of asgard:

"To be a creature of magic, to be a god, is to be a creature of story"

unlike science which is all about discovering the wonders of the "natural" world and manipulating it to your needs magic is about imposing a narrative, a story upon reality to bend it to your own or another's will. For the most part science and magic are very similar but when you get to the roots, the ultimate end of both, magic is faith, the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Now then, what does this all mean? what are gods? well doom told us, they are...

GODS: Living Stories

That's right. the gods of marvel are living stories in physical form. As explained by Doom to be a creature of magic is to be a creature of story. Though the portrayal of gods in marvel has been erratic over the years it has been hinted at forever they are living stories and in more recent times it has become increasingly apparent in strazinski's thor and especially in loki agent of asgard. Another proof of gods being beings of story is evidenced by ragnarok, the great repeating "story" of asgard that the gods were bound to until thor "rewrote their destiny". Here are several scans hinting at the gods being living stories:

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  • 1,2,3. loki hinting at the gods being formed from humanity's stories and faith.
  • 4. RKT actually finds the story of the asgardians woven by the fates.
  • 5. Donald Blake seems to hint at gods being stories.

now of course the true origin of the gods is uncertain. them being living stories doesn't even necessarily mean humans created them as loki said that even when the omniverse is destroyed there would probably a ton of stories still in the nothingness, seeming to show stories are eternal (cant find the scan right now). What we do know though is they are stories in physical form.

lets look at what else makes them different from advanced aliens.

GODS UNIQUE PHYSIOLOGY

DIMENSIONAL FREEDOM (Both Spatial and Temporal)

what is "dimensional freedom"? it is not higher dimensionality like mr mxy nor is it infinite dimensionality like pre-retcon beyonder, rather it is the ability to exist in the same state on all different planes of reality. for instance a 3D being that goes into the 4th dimension would be a piece of paper, utterly powerless against 4D beings, however a dimensionally free god would be just as powerful in the 4th dimension as he is in the third, there would be zero change in power.

Is this belief that gods are dimensionally free supported by feats? yes indeed:

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  • 1,2. Thor says his "divinity transcends dimensions and so might his corporeal form" then proceeds to back this up by climbing out of a 4 dimensional (3 special and one temporal dimension) universe!
  • 3,4,5. X-man hides outside of time in the plank length between moments, does this stop ares from fighting him? nope! Ares not only busts right into this temporal dimension and stomps X-man easily as if the fight was in the normal world. Ares even says being in the place in between planck lengths doesn't limit him!
  • 6. Odin battles Seth on literally every plane of reality.
  • 7. Loki fights odin on every metaphysical plane.

In both classic and modern times it is shown gods are dimensionally free or, dimensionally independent. time and space mean nothing to them, as explained by X-man:

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a god is a god on every plane of space and time. we also see that because of their unique dimensional independence gods cannot be molecularly broken down to their base bits.

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GODS ARE POWERED BY PRAYER

this one is pretty simple to understand. gods in marvel are empowered by and can hear prayers.

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  • 1,2. thor hears the prayers of a child a universe away and answers them.
  • 3. thor is empowered by a prayer to God when fighting glory.
  • 4. Thor prays to Gaea and she answers.

gods are creatures of faith and hope and thus can hear and answer the prayers of mortals.

GODS EMBODY A CONCEPT

This is something that definitely sets gods apart as divine. major gods embody something, for ares its war, thor the storm, hela death and odinforce users embody their pantheon itself. A god as a living story is the living story of their concept:

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  • 1. X-man says he cannot counter ares because he is war personified on every plane of existence and time.
  • 2. Hela is an embodiment of death, so when odin kills her earth is ravaged by un-death.
  • 3. Thor is the storm personified, as he explains all the storms of earth are his.
  • 4,5. It is explained he who has the odinforce sustains and embodies Asgard.

PIS or just godly awesomeness?

many people say that certain feats are PIS (thor knocking out PF, hurting galactus) but I see it differently. don't get me wrong, im not saying thor can go around oneshotting multiversal abstracts nor that he can hit that hard against lesser opponents, im simply saying as creatures of faith and story many times gods scale up to overcome the odds... and also scale down to make a story more interesting and believable. when the odds are stacked against them gods as beings of story and faith can accomplish the impossible, an example proving this is thor killing glory, however when fighting lesser beings gods are scaled down to make the story of their existence more interesting and worthy of telling.

please voice your opinions :D If you have any more scans showing gods as living stories or scans of them doing something unique because of their physiology, please show me so I can add them.

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#1 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4331 posts) - - Show Bio

Being a God doesn't mean much. Just look at the warriors Three.

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#2 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio

Being a God doesn't mean much. Just look at the warriors Three.

they aren't major gods like thor, ares, hela ect. also they are really underrated, volstagg was able to tank a bunch of attacks from an army of doombots and crush them.

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#3 Posted by Outside_85 (17097 posts) - - Show Bio

Means you get the stuffing kicked out of you by every cosmic freakshow with a god-complex.

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#4 Posted by KrleAvenger (19786 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to touche upon some stuff you said.

  1. Who exactly sees Gods as Aliens? I don't think anybody thinks that. Everybody knows the difference. Even non comics book readers.
  2. I get what you are trying to say from that Ares scan but him stomping Nate is PIS.
  3. Your statement on feats not being PIS because Gods can become more powerful from outside source like prayers proves it is not PIS. However it is plot device involved in it. The difference between PIS and the plot device is that plot device is there to make the story work without doing something stupid, like Kryptonite being a plot device for Batman beating Superman, without using PIS on Batman beating Superman without anything.
  4. Your statement is based on your personal opinion. It is lacking evidenced. However, it is not lacking logic which makes it valid to a degree but it is not something we should use as an argument. Especially because as you said, prayers or other things that can give Gods extra power is a plot device, AKA context so it is invalid on battle forum. But you probably mentioned that just for the sake of the concept while ignoring battle forum which is ok and I have to say, cool theory.
  5. I have another question tho. Why did you post those other stuff like Gods embody concept? Again it is something almost anybody knows.
  6. Planck lengths are not the slowest time science ever calculated. It is is the scale at which classical ideas about gravity and space-time cease to be valid

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As for the rest...

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#5 Posted by jardinain2 (2485 posts) - - Show Bio


  1. Planck lengths are not the slowest time science ever calculated. It is is the scale at which classical ideas about gravity and space-time cease to be valid

Not really. Planck lengths tend to part of metaphysics so i stay away, but Quantum field theory's of gravity still apply in some cases. in any case gravity tends to be stupid and we don't even know how it works.

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#6 Posted by jardinain2 (2485 posts) - - Show Bio

Good post! lots of neat info.

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#7 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger:

Who exactly sees Gods as Aliens? I don't think anybody thinks that. Everybody knows the difference. Even non comics book readers.

@p00ty is making a blog about them just being advanced aliens, and every now and then ill see some people saying the asgardians are just aliens and nothing special.

I get what you are trying to say from that Ares scan but him stomping Nate is PIS.

well I don't know much about nate.

Your statement on feats not being PIS because Gods can become more powerful from outside source like prayers proves it is not PIS. However it is plot device involved in it. The difference between PIS and the plot device is that plot device is there to make the story work without doing something stupid, like Kryptonite being a plot device for Batman beating Superman, without using PIS on Batman beating Superman without anything.

very true. gods in marvel are walking plot devices in both a good and bad way.

Your statement is based on your personal opinion. It is lacking evidenced. However, it is not lacking logic which makes it valid to a degree but it is not something we should use as an argument. Especially because as you said, prayers or other things that can give Gods extra power is a plot device, AKA context so it is invalid on battle forum. But you probably mentioned that just for the sake of the concept while ignoring battle forum which is ok and I have to say, cool theory.

yea, this is more about a cool theory of the nature of gods than battle forums, and thanks :D

I have another question tho. Why did you post those other stuff like Gods embody concept? Again it is something almost anybody knows.

just as more proof to those who don't know, like p00ty, that gods are different than advanced aliens.

Planck lengths are not the slowest time science ever calculated. It is is the scale at which classical ideas about gravity and space-time cease to be valid

ok thanks, wasn't sure about that.

As for the rest...

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thanks man :D

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#8 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio

Good post! lots of neat info.

thanks man, glad you like it.

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#9 Posted by jardinain2 (2485 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae281.cfm in case you want to know more about them.

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#10 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae281.cfm in case you want to know more about them.

awesome. thanks.

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#11 Posted by KrleAvenger (19786 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2:I think I said the same thing using different words. It is focused on Quantum Physics.

@asgardianbrony:

p00ty is making a blog about them just being advanced aliens, and every now and then ill see some people saying the asgardians are just aliens and nothing special.

Really? I would really love to see that blog to see what he was trying to say exactly.

well I don't know much about nate.

He is a Teambuster/Transcendent level but he is so ridiculously versatile and full of Hax that he can take on Skyfather level beings. At least the most powerful version of him can. I don't know what version Nate that encountered Ares is but even weakened Versions are still way more powerful than Mid Tiers like Ares. I don't know why he did not use his telepathy which is ridiculously above Jean's.

ok thanks, wasn't sure about that.

No problem.

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#12 Edited by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by EcstaticGrace (6207 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty: I could see some of your points. But none of it answers why some Gods are powered by worship, or how Gods can hear prayers.

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#16 Posted by Sly_141 (2565 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty: Will you be covering the New Gods in tpyou right post? (I'm going check it out regardless)

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#17 Edited by Nerevarine_11 (9700 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by KrleAvenger (19786 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by EcstaticGrace (6207 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty: That's not disproving anything.. Its saying "I dont have the answer but thats irrelevant." I never suggested I can prove why Adam is powered by Anti-Matter I honestly don't even have to (science experiment gone wrong). Just because something is unexplainable doesn't mean it should be equated to something else unexplainable

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#22 Posted by KrleAvenger (19786 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty: This:

@p00ty said:

@krleavenger: About 75% of my post are in the religion thread. So yes, it does involve science vs the Supernatural.

Tony Stark, Hank Pym, Batman have all stated that magic is just undiscovered science. They have mimicked, negated the energy signature of so called "magic" by using tech. Vulcan depowered Adam warlock and called magic "exotic energy but still just energy. Pym did so against Asgardian magic when he trapped Loki.

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#23 Posted by P00TY (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecstaticgrace: @krleavenger: My bad. I just noticed this is NOT the thread we started in. This is his blog. I'm not trying to hijack his thread. I'm deleting my post.

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#24 Edited by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty: hey man, if your blog is going to be about science vs religion I will definitely be debating you.

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#25 Posted by P00TY (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony:

Religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

If we're being technical...It won't be science vs religion. I won't be discussing beliefs or the proper way to worship.

I will be discussing what some call "supernatural" (Things that some believe are beyond science). I don't believe they are "beyond nature aka supernatural.... Just not understood or misunderstood.

I've only skimmed your blog but noticed that you used the Christian definition of faith. And you said you'd debate religion vs science.. Ever visit the Religion Thread?

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#26 Edited by TheWhiteCrown (187 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger said:

@p00ty: This:

@p00ty said:

@krleavenger: About 75% of my post are in the religion thread. So yes, it does involve science vs the Supernatural.

Tony Stark, Hank Pym, Batman have all stated that magic is just undiscovered science. They have mimicked, negated the energy signature of so called "magic" by using tech. Vulcan depowered Adam warlock and called magic "exotic energy but still just energy. Pym did so against Asgardian magic when he trapped Loki.

See but the problem with this is for the handful of times that they have "negated" the use of magical energy, they have never been able to undo its effects via technology. They cannot undo any reality warping effects, transmutations/transformations, or break rituals no matter how hard they try.

In regards to Adam Warlock, the individual who choose to rework his character a a quantum Sorcerer version of Adam Warlock is a moron and completely disregarded all of the rules of Magic as defined by marvel. He used quantum energies to simulate spell casting, and despite whatever nonsense statement a certain character may have made again the writer and editor of the time were morons, that doesn't make him a Sorcerer. His actual magical powers are basically nil. Get a competent sorcerer, god, or magical being and the story would go differently.

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#27 Posted by P00TY (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewhitecrown: They cannot undo any reality warping effects, transmutations/transformations, or break rituals no matter how hard they try.

1) They have said that they don't fully understand it. But the fact that they have begun to incorporate it into tech(Stark when he made the Thorbuster) or negate it(as when Pym trapped Loki) or when Thanos created Mystic or Reed created Ragnorak shows that they are making progress in understanding it.

2) When have they used science to try and break a spell or undo transmutation?

3( People forget that science has greater feats then magic. Cosmic cubed warp reality. Doom used science to defeat the ivory kings. Science was used to harness The HOTU. So the part of science that we understand is already greater then the part of science (magic) that we don't understand.

And from DC. Fifth dimensional imps like Bat mite were thought to be magic for years. They warp realiy on a whim. It wasn't magic. It was advanced science.

Again, magic and science are not the opposite. Magic is Part of science.

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#28 Edited by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty:

If we're being technical...It won't be science vs religion. I won't be discussing beliefs or the proper way to worship.

ok, but ill still debate you. I am a firm believer in the supernatural.

I will be discussing what some call "supernatural" (Things that some believe are beyond science). I don't believe they are "beyond nature aka supernatural.... Just not understood or misunderstood.

well if were talking about the real world it is a fact there is something supernatural. ill talk about this once your blog is up.

I've only skimmed your blog but noticed that you used the Christian definition of faith. And you said you'd debate religion vs science.. Ever visit the Religion Thread?

I visited the thread, or a thread like it a while back. I also made a thread about misconceptions of Christianity and a blog about morality.

But the fact that they have begun to incorporate it into tech(

I hope you read my full blog because I touch on this and explain why magic is science for the most part, but in the end its something greater.

. Doom used science to defeat the ivory kings. Science was used to harness The HOTU. So the part of science that we understand is already greater then the part of science (magic) that we don't understand.

im pretty sure doom used the beyonders own omnipower against them and wasn't the HOTU harnessed by both science and magic?

And from DC. Fifth dimensional imps like Bat mite were thought to be magic for years. They warp realiy on a whim. It wasn't magic. It was advanced science.

you bring a 5d imp and I raise you a Michael Demiurgos. (also the 5d imps have been called both magic and science, so they are probably a mixture of both)

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#29 Edited by TheWhiteCrown (187 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty:

1a. Not really. The Thor Buster was powered by a mystical asgardian crystal. Other than that, it was basically just a regular Iron Man Armor. Harnessing magical energy from inanimate objects, that weren't protected, has never really been that difficult in Marvel. Also it was implied that Doom helped him.

1b. Thanos pretty much has a vast knowledge and collection of things that are cosmic, mystical, or scientific in nature. And although he didn't use it much, he was no stranger to the ways of magic.

1c. Anyways, I get where you going, "oh Reed had to understand magic to break the genetic code of Thor's DNA to clone him" but that's not the case. There was nothing mystical about Ragnarok's creation. They pretty much just realized that Thor's genetic material could be used to create a clone/cyborg hybrid. And until said creation got his hands on a Mjolnir of another universe, it used pure tech to simulate the standard powers of Thor.

2. Reed Richards has tried it on several occasions and it never works. It's a running joke in Marvel that magic really doesn't like Reed Richards.

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3. That's not relevant to this discussion.

4. There seems to be a common misunderstanding of DC's 5D beings. Contrary to what some believe, Zrfff and its inhabitants are inherently magical. The highly highly sophisticated thought based science, with which they used is powered purely by imagination. Moreover, they were included in and affected by the loss of magic during the Days of Vengeance storyline. This is no different than how DC does not classify the powers of Gods and their ilk (see: The Spectre) as being magical. And yet, the Spectre and Mxy are usually included in group shots of the higher tier mystical beings. Moreover Zrfff, was listed as one of many places that generates magical energies that passes through Zerox, the Sorcerers' World.

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#31 Posted by P00TY (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: well if were talking about the real world it is a fact there is something supernatural. ill talk about this once your blog is up.

I don't wanna discuss real world in the thread. It will touch on real world but mostly comics

I also made a thread about misconceptions of Christianity

Please link me to it.

unlike science which is all about discovering the wonders of the "natural" world and manipulating it to your needs..... magic is about imposing a narrative, a story upon reality to bend it to your own or another's will.

Explain that more. Science can bend reality also like cosmic cubes.

For the most part science and magic are very similar but when you get to the roots, the ultimate end of both, magic is faith, the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

magic is not faith. Faith is a feeling or mindset. Magic is the manipulation of power/energy. You could say faith is the cause and magic is the result. but I don't see how they could be the same.

im pretty sure doom used the beyonders own omnipower against them and wasn't the HOTU harnessed by both science and magic

In the first secret wars, Doom used galactus tech to steal the beyonders power. Then he used a bomb to kill the Beyonders and used the Molecule Man as a conduit. From what I remember there wasn't magic involved with the HOTU

I'm not sure when i'm going to make my thread but until then here are some scans and definitions showing my viewpoint.

So let me ask: Is there anything that magic can do that other forms of energy can't do?

Hank pym explains that even asgardian magic is just energy
Hank pym explains that even asgardian magic is just energy

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magic is a unique energy
magic is a unique energy
This is more about god not just energy. but i'll be addresing the
This is more about god not just energy. but i'll be addresing the "gods are aliens" part soon

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#32 Posted by P00TY (3067 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Edited by TheWhiteCrown (187 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty:I get that you're trying to get you're point across, but stop using DC to defend Marvel's magic. Aside from the basic shared premise of Magic being an energy force, DC's Magic and Gods are executed totally differently from Marvel's. Aside from the Olympians, DC actually treats their gods like cosmic/metaphysical beings of universal importance. And the New Gods are the only ones that could even be compared to advanced Aliens.

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Yes it's an energy. But DC has a different approach.
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#34 Edited by P00TY (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewhitecrown: Scientist from Marvel's and DC both say that magic is energy. Even your scan says science is energy. So I will continue to post from both universes. Because they both agree that magic is science.

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#35 Posted by Yarva (899 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty: I'm not sure that I agree. In DC it was shown that the gods were created by the god wave. They even explained that the Greek pantheon of gods decided to split themselves off into other gods which eventually became their own separate entities. So it turns out that Zeus and Odin etc were all originally the same person. The problem I see is that the godwave came from the source but I've always seen the source as a technology since the source code has been shown to be a mathematical equation. But when it comes to Hell, Demons, Heaven, Angels and the Presence(Jesus Christ himself), that has always been shown as holy and devine.

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#36 Edited by TheWhiteCrown (187 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty: You missed the point. I am agreeing that Magic is essentially just an esoteric form of energy, hence the scans - to explain what it actually does. What I'm saying is that the similarities between DC and Marvel's explanation of Magic ends there. How it is generated and utilized is vastly different in both.

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#37 Posted by ThunderingThorFan (372 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: GREAT POST 'BRONY! Nice to see someone who is actually a fan with knowledge of continuity post something here.

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#38 Posted by P00TY (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@yarva:

Holy:dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred

Divine:of, from, or like God or a god.

I showed those definitions to make a point. ANYTHING or anyone can be holy or divine if it has to do with god or religion.

This means The Source, The Presence, hell, angels, Kryptonians etc all come from the same..... source or energy. The only difference is somethings have a religious viewpoint attached to them.

Also, when did DC say the Presence was Jesus?

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#39 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Edited by TheWhiteCrown (187 posts) - - Show Bio

@yarva: The Source isn't technology. It's the consciousness of the DC Universe (multiverse) and an aspect of the Presence that represents (secular) buddhist philosophy, as opposed to the Presence's overt Judeo-Christian roots. The "mathematical" Life and Anti-Life Equations, are merely its creations and represent aspects of its power.

@asgardianbrony: Here I am going attack dog on everyone else, meanwhile I forget to acknowledge the poster. Great thread :p

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#41 Edited by P00TY (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewhitecrown: I am agreeing that Magic is essentially just an esoteric form of energy,

That is the only part I'm concerned with. How the energy is used is irrelevant.

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#42 Posted by Yarva (899 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty: The problem with those definitions is that it doesn't apply to comics. We can all call Zeus and Odin gods but they are not God. I refer to them as gods because its an easy name to reference but I don't actually view them as gods. There is only 1 God to me in DC and thats the Presence. Those gods all came from the godwave which is of the source which has been shown to have a mathematical source code. The Presence, his angels, Lucifer and everything else pertaining to that part of DC has never been shown as part of the godwave or any other technological source. Phantom Stranger was Judas. He betrayed Jesus and now serves him until he atones for all his sins. The person that he has always worked for is the Presence.

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#43 Posted by Yarva (899 posts) - - Show Bio

@yarva: The Source isn't technology. It's the consciousness of the DC Universe (multiverse) and an aspect of the Presence that represents (secular) buddhist philosophy, as opposed to the Presence's overt Judeo-Christian roots. The "mathematical" Life and Anti-Life Equations, are merely its creations and represent aspects of its power.

Whats your source for this information?

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#44 Posted by TheWhiteCrown (187 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty:

@p00ty said:

@yarva:

Holy:dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred

Divine:of, from, or like God or a god.

I showed those definitions to make a point. ANYTHING or anyone can be holy or divine if it has to do with god or religion.

This means The Source, The Presence, hell, angels, Kryptonians etc all come from the same..... source or energy. The only difference is somethings have a religious viewpoint attached to them.

Also, when did DC say the Presence was Jesus?

In The Sandman, Phantom Stranger (New 52), Trinity of Sin (New 52), Trinity of Sin: Phantom Stranger (New 52), Forever Evil: Blight (new 52), Lucifer v1. and v.2 , Hellblazer.

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#45 Edited by TheWhiteCrown (187 posts) - - Show Bio

@yarva: Countdown to Final Crisis, Death of The New Gods, and Final Crisis. The New Gods in general are my favorite group in all of DC comics. Also here is the Source:

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#46 Posted by Yarva (899 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewhitecrown: I'm very interested in this subject, could you do me a favor and post a scan or 2 that explains it?

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#47 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty:

I don't wanna discuss real world in the thread. It will touch on real world but mostly comics

ok. ill happily discuss either :D

Please link me to it.

Here you go. http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/off-topic-5/misconceptions-about-christianity-1829618/

Now remember when reading this, I am a NON-DENOMINATIONAL Christian. I simply read the Bible and live by what it says, I do not burden myself with the doctrines of men put in Christianity by other denominations. Certain of the things in that thread may be disagreed with by some professing Christians, but its all backed up by what is actually said in scripture.

Explain that more. Science can bend reality also like cosmic cubes.

very true BUT in the end there always must be an explanation or else it isn't science and we have crossed over into the supernatural. When science/cosmic reality warpers bend reality its because of molecules or quarks or something else, when a magic user bends reality there is no explanation, they just did it. As explained by Doom magic is a story you tell reality, you believe it to be true (AKA faith) and it becomes true.

magic is not faith. Faith is a feeling or mindset. Magic is the manipulation of power/energy. You could say faith is the cause and magic is the result. but I don't see how they could be the same.

this is a good point here. "magic" is thrown around quite often without real specification, im guilty of this myself. Let me explain it this way. magic energy is just that, energy but with rare and bizarre laws different from our own reality, for instance a magic flame may never go out or magic water may wipe away your mind. magic energy is simply energy alien to our universe and this in many cases can be incorporated with technology. Magic however, real magic is the art. Magic is telling a mountain to move from its place and make it so with nothing but your faith and your words. Magic, true magic, is divine power. In the end game science is confined to laws already created, it must use such and such to gain the desired effect while with magic its all just a matter of faith that the spell you read is going to work.

from now on when referring to magical energies ill call them magic, and when referring to the art ill call it magik (cuz its cooler).

In the first secret wars, Doom used galactus tech to steal the beyonders power. Then he used a bomb to kill the Beyonders and used the Molecule Man as a conduit. From what I remember there wasn't magic involved with the HOTU

that seems just to be more Doom's intellect and trickery in the pre-retcon beyonder instance, if all it took was some of galactus tech to steal the beyonders power I bet he could have done the exact same using spells and magic energy from pantheons or elder gods.

well, MM and the beyonders are more divine than scientific in my opinion. their power comes from outside the universe and has no reason behind it to my knowledge thus making it supernatural.

I am pretty positive the HOTU was magical and cosmic in nature, so it was logically being harnessed by both magik and science.

So let me ask: Is there anything that magic can do that other forms of energy can't do?

magical energy=cosmic energy, however magik (the art) is not dependant on scientific law, nor even the laws of the universe. say we have two reality warpers at their respective absolute peak. one is scientific, one is mystic. Both would stalemate for a long time but the mystic would eventually win, why? because the scientist is only able to do things using the ingredients and laws of reality and at the very best can bend them, however the mystic in the end has nothing holding him back at all but his belief.

when it comes down to it the highest mystic reality warper is God, and God always wins ;D

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#48 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (7691 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewhitecrown:

Here I am going attack dog on everyone else, meanwhile I forget to acknowledge the poster. Great thread :p

thanks man and no problem. I love it when my threads have intelligent debate :D

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#49 Posted by P00TY (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@yarva said:

@p00ty: The problem with those definitions is that it doesn't apply to comics. We can all call Zeus and Odin gods but they are not God. I refer to them as gods because its an easy name to reference but I don't actually view them as gods. There is only 1 God to me in DC and thats the Presence. Those gods all came from the godwave which is of the source which has been shown to have a mathematical source code. The Presence, his angels, Lucifer and everything else pertaining to that part of DC has never been shown as part of the godwave or any other technological source. Phantom Stranger was Judas. He betrayed Jesus and now serves him until he atones for all his sins. The person that he has always worked for is the Presence.

I completely agree that Thor/Odin/Zeus are not God The almighty. They are gods(a god is anyone or anything that is worshiped). But if The Presence created all things.... then didn't he create The Source?

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#50 Posted by Yarva (899 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty: That's what I've always tried to figure out but I don't know how The Presence ties in with the source. I would assume he created it which in turn created all the gods but I still see the source as technology based on the fact that it has a mathematical equation running it. Maybe The Presence created it to be that way.

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