@bullpr: Great points to raise, I can definitely understand your feeling towards Marvel. Its very something similar to how i feel, but with myself… well to me, when I think about the aspects of comics, mainly Marvel and DC that I am unhappy with, the causes, the reasons, where I attribute them, isn't just with the company and the creators… it overlooks a very important element and thats the fans. I really enjoyed the recent Elektra series, but it didn't sell well enough and so it got cancelled. X-Factor by Peter David was very character focused, continuity minded, consistent in other ways, as it has been since he revived and revitalized X-Factor… and despite having not so popular characters for most of the time (Jamie Madrox, Siryn, so on) eventually it got cancelled… where as Uncanny will always sell well. Simply, unfortunately for me, most fans will generally buy Uncanny X-Men and not X-Factor, most fans will rather have a big flashy book with a bigger name writer, with Wolverine, Cyclops, Iceman, Magneto… than a book with tighter characterization, better odd to continuity and lesser famous characters. I myself was pretty critical of Fractions Thor, but I know that the way comics work, there wasn't really anything I could do to avoid having to have a Thor book I didn't enjoy. Not because Matt Fraction is a bad guy or artistically bankrupt, just his vision of Thor doesn't gel with mine. Fraction is great on Sex Criminals though, and was great on Hawkeye. Have you read much of Aarons other works/books?

That and fans naturally tend to get a bit more cynical over time, as they become more familiar with the tricks and repetition that can come more apparent with time. I don't really have a problem with female Thor. Don't like the current stories as much as Gorr arc, or the one shots with Young Thor and the Dragon and modern Thor and his various things he gets up to on Midgard (those two issues were awesome) but I don't have a big problem with it myself, and that might be because I actually read a lot of comics and tend to have low expectations. That and a lot of comics I do read aren't from Marvel or DC. Hinterkind, Saga, Alex and Ada, Sex Criminals. Lots of creative fun stuff out there. That wide selection helps take the sting off for me when one of my favorite characters at Marvel/DC is written by a writer whose ideas I do not like.

@spykat: Captain America wasn't referred to as Thor. BRB has an alias of Beta Ray Thor. Its up to them what they want to call themselves, its just a name.

Odin sealed Thor's essence into Masterson's mind in order to save his life.

At no time tho was Eric actually "Thor" -- it was more like a guise he was under.

@sc:

Definitely agree, curious that you mentioned another Ragnarok in Thor comics, because i immediately remembered of Loki AA next issue preview, incredible how writers can connect Secret Wars premise to the Asgardian Ragnarok (saturating), and yes Gorr arcs weren't just perfect because characters like for ex. Horus would make the story even more "Godly" and reinforce the main plot credibility. Gillen's writing on Angela also was pretty good, very above Aaron's current writing and TGOT (except Gorr), the last issue had....... i can't tell you anything because would be spoiler, and i m sure you will read it in the future, but was very very unexpected, now that Hickman time runs out Avengers are over, and Loki AA is to much centered on Loki, basically Gillen is the only reason why i still enjoy reading Marvel Asgard, i hope Secret Wars (Witch Hunter Angela) is on the same level that Angela AA ... I hope i don't have to wait 3 years (like you for X-Men) to read Thor stories with journeys into mystery, i think the Ragnarok movie will not allow the continuation of the current creative decisions, but i have the impression that Aaron will still be the writer, and should be Gillen, and Marguerite Bennett should write Angela solo in the future because i also enjoy her flashbacks plots...

@jayc1324: I tend to believe the writers, so to me, if they call them gods, they've been turned into gods. It was hardly an isolated incident. But we'll just have to disagree.

That was only for a little while. They would switch places whenever Thor powered up, but after Thor (appeared to) kill Loki, Heimdall banished Thor Odinson and left Eric alone with Mjolnir with which he became the new Thor on his own.

And by the way, Odin himself called the transformed form of Beta Ray Bill, Beta Ray Thor. So yes, I'd say BRB was also Thor.

@sc: Ok. Makes sense. I'm on my phone so just a few key words:

-No I'm not familiar with his other writing.

-Yes, the reader attitude can be frustrating toward quality. But like a famous editor keeps saying in France: the public is always right.

-Conclusion: I hope you're right. It would mean that the quality of the publication could significantly rise in the future.

@galacticfork: Its not smart to blindly agree with writers and everything they say. If you listen to Garth Ennis, Daredevil can speed blitz the hell out of wolverine and one shot him. But using logic we can discern that that is simply not true. Writers can be wrong, and a writer having a character state something doesn't make it true. The enchantment says nothing about making you a god or goddess. I understand your opinion on this matter but yes we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Actually... yeah. Masterson was Thor between the time when Odin freed Thor from Masterson and the crafting of the Thunderstrike Mace.

@tyger said:

@spykat said:

@galacticfork said:

@jayc1324: According to Marvel, Masterson as Thor was a Thunder God even then. It said so on his first cover as Thor. So obviously in Masterson's case, it turned him to the God of Thunder. Same with Dargo. He was referred to as a thunder god by the editors, and in Beta Ray Bill's case when Odin summoned Thor, he summoned Bill by mistake because he was the only Thunder God there at the moment. So seriously. Captain America not transforming is the exception. Now, you can make up your own rules, that's fine, that doesn't make you right.

Odin sealed Thor's essence into Masterson's mind in order to save his life.

At no time tho was Eric actually "Thor" -- it was more like a guise he was under.

Actually... yeah. Masterson was Thor between the time when Odin freed Thor from Masterson and the crafting of the Thunderstrike Mace.

Hi,
Here is my theory on this...
When Thor supposedly killed Loki, Odin separated Thor and Eric and banished the former to limbo.
In turn, Eric assumed the role of the god of thunder (assuming that "divinity" can be transferred...I don't happen to think so).
It's to my thinking that he didn't actually become Thor, he just perpetuated the same ruse started when he and Thor were bonded.
Could be wrong...not like comic books are noted for their consistency :-/

The first part - see my reply to @Tyger.

The second part - I'm just not feelin' it bro....don't think BRB did either.

@spykat said:

Actually... yeah. Masterson was Thor between the time when Odin freed Thor from Masterson and the crafting of the Thunderstrike Mace.

Hi,

Here is my theory on this...

When Thor supposedly killed Loki, Odin separated Thor and Eric and banished the former to limbo.

In turn, Eric assumed the role of the god of thunder (assuming that "divinity" can be transferred...I don't happen to think so).

It's to my thinking that he didn't actually become Thor, he just perpetuated the same ruse started when he and Thor were bonded.

Could be wrong...not like comic books are noted for their consistency :-/

Your theory is wrong. After they found Thor, he returned to Asgard. There were 2 'Thors' until Enchantress started a brawl between them and Odin made Thunderstrike.

Odin also called Red Norvell 'Thor' during the 'exile' arc and giving him the 'Crusher' hammer.

Dargo is the 'Future Thor'.

None of these people have any (significant) mental issues. They don't believe they are the son of Odin and Gaea. They don't believe they are the person that the old Viking legends talk about.

The simple fact is: 'Thor' has always been treated as both a name AND a title. (Though that has been revealed to be because of Odin attempting to stop the cycle of Ragnarok during the 'Warrior Madness' arc. Hiding Thor and making copies was meant to confuse fate.)

Heck, even Tony Stark was able to clone Thor, and Doc Ock can body swap. Why is it so unbelievable that Odin can make a clone of Thor and stuck someone else's mind in the body? Shazam does it all the time...

@spykat said:

Hi,

Here is my theory on this...

When Thor supposedly killed Loki, Odin separated Thor and Eric and banished the former to limbo.

In turn, Eric assumed the role of the god of thunder (assuming that "divinity" can be transferred...I don't happen to think so).

It's to my thinking that he didn't actually become Thor, he just perpetuated the same ruse started when he and Thor were bonded.

Could be wrong...not like comic books are noted for their consistency :-/

You have to do some mental gymnastics for this theory... It's not the same ruse at all. Initially, they shared a body... Eric didn't actually transform. When the cane was struck, Thor Odinson took over. After Thor Odinson was banished, Eric transformed all on his own. That image is just what Eric thought, because he didn't think he was worthy. But he was able to transform after Thor Odinson was returned. There was actually no transfer of power. It was Eric being worthy, just like Beta Ray Bill and Dargo before him.

Also... while Jane was Thor, she acknowledged she's not Thor Odinson.

She started using the title, Thor after Thor Odinson gave his blessing.

I don't understand what this means. Your feelings determine what Odin said to Beta Ray Bill? Huh?

Never thought that when i read Gorr arcs, Aaron's writing would be reduced in the future to crappy stories like Eric Masterson... But makes sense justify crappy writing with other crappy writing...

@spykat: So in other words you just can't rap your head around the concept of continuity lol. Any argument that is summed up as "Let me tell you about the past so you can dismiss the present" just means you don't understand how to follow comics or are just being willfully ignorant. Every issue adds and changes the continuity. Just because you would rather something not be so doesn't change the fact that it is so. You can cry and moan with the rest of them and pretend like what is clearly on the page isn't clearly on the page but it doesn't really retroactively change reality like you seem to hope it does.

Sorry, but there is no changing your mind on this I see.
Just because something happens doesn't make it logical or right.
Some people are just "company men" tho -- if an authority figure says something, well...it must be fact.
Your little "lol" punctuations are rather condescending as well.

Bringing up the term "company men" here is the funniest thing in this whole discussion. You talk about logic and reason in a fictional world where people come back to life all the time and turn into animal themed super humans. We aren't talking about real life which is what some of you seem to be having a hard time distinguishing. This is a FICTIONAL WORLD so what ever the people who own it do to it IS what happens to it, and yes it does become fact. Look at all the people who hated the Episodes 1, 2, and 3 of Star Wars movies. It doesn't matter that they didn't like them George Lucas owned the universe and what ever he said did become fact within the cannon of Star Wars for better or worse. That is how fiction works; that is how continuity works; you either get that or you are in denial.

Just so you all know(because you clearly don't know)just thinking Arron's writing is bad is not a counter or a reason for Jane being the new Thor, and you can't just see new information and deem it irrelevant because it contradicts what you WANT to believe. It doesn't make it any less true then it actually is. Unless any of you can provide scans from a latter point in continuity that disprove the ones I've already posted just stop crying to me about this. Either you accept it and deal with the pros and cons of following a continuous continuity or you look silly and refuse to accept what's happened in a fictional world. Those are the two options and I really don't care which one any of you pick.

There have been a ton of things throughout marvel history that I have hate(plenty of which i was very vocal about on here even), but I'm not so mentally disabled that I'm sitting here after the fact swearing to you all Spider-Man and Mary Jane are married when they aren't anymore. Things change and move on. Some times for the better, some times for the worse. Whither or not any of us like or dislike it is the only real irrelevant thing.

Oh, and as for Cap being an anomaly and not gaining the power of Thor when he picked up the hammer...

Anyone actually surprised?

@tyger said:

Oh, and as for Cap being an anomaly and not gaining the power of Thor when he picked up the hammer...

(2011 Fear Itself) Steve also was worthy and like in Aaron's present writing he also use Asgardian speech when was worthy and get Asgardian knowledge from the hammer... Sarcasm Some stories from the past don't hold up comics also evolve, Aaron's current execution is outdated, and can only be compared with crappy stories like Eric Masterson, but even in Eric's story Mjolnir was not a character.

@teerack:

Sorry Tee-man -- could not hear your message above the insults and condescending attitude.
We're done here.

Solid escape strategy.

Though my last post wasn't even insulting. /shrug

What?
Can barely hear you...
Actually tho, this whole..."debate" is pretty pointless.
What you seem to be saying is "whether one likes it or not, these events happened because the writer said it did".
I, and some others are not disputing this.
Yeah, Jane Foster does refer to herself as Thor.
Yes, it happened -- no doubt about it.
What our objection is centers around the entire premise being flaky, manipulative, and a cloying attempt by Aaron/Marvel to appear "progressive".
Epic storytelling used to be enough.

@asgaard said:

(2011 Fear Itself) Steve also was worthy and like in Aaron's present writing he also use Asgardian speech when was worthy and get Asgardian knowledge from the hammer... Sarcasm Some stories from the past don't hold up comics also evolve, Aaron's current execution is outdated, and can only be compared with crappy stories like Eric Masterson, but even in Eric's story Mjolnir was not a character.

I don't understand. Why aren't you criticizing that for not having him transform? Do you not care for continuity? Or is canon only what you agree with? It's not explained how or why he didn't transform. He's always been in a minority. It's not even suggested in story that it's odd. That's an inconsistency. If they'd recognized that, it'd be seen as an in story oddity... but it doesn't. Even Loki transformed after Captain America did. The differences in the new Thor are acknowledged as plot points. It is changing within the continuity. The Captain America scene can't say the same. Your reaction is like if a writer had Superman Juggling kryptonite, but since you thought the kryptonite thing was lame, you decided this was proof krytponite has no effect on superman and all the past events were wrong.

It's scary how somehow "quality of writing" becomes equal to "what I say is true." I'm not even sure why you read comics if you are the arbiters of what's real and what isn't in the fictional universe. Why not just write fanfiction or something? There are exceptions of course, but these details in the Thor series have been going on and on for thirty years. It's not an isolated incident. In the story of Thor, the transformation form the hammer provides has historically been referred to as Thor or the God of Thunder. You're all free to rail that it's going against your made up little head-canons, but whatever. That's fine.

So hey, talk about how crappy you think the story is, criticize the quality, think Aaron has sold out. That's all hunky dory, but you can't just make up canon, and then blame Aaron for not following your make believe creations.

That's fine. You have your thoughts, and I have my thoughts and the continuity of the past 30 years of Thor comics.

@galacticfork:

Who do you think should voice the character Mjolnir when Female Thor story is adapted in the MCU?

For obvious reasons, i lost interest in debate this topics with you...For respect from some of the interesting/positive interactions of the past, basically i will say again, what i claim in the posts above that apparently you didn't get...

Justify Aaron's current writing/execution with stories like Eric Masterson (that was very bad), just reveals how poor Aaron's current writing/execution is, a story where Mjolnir that is a weapon behaves like a real character and gives to a human Asgardian knowledge/behavior/speech is outdated even for comics, and was to much convenient for the new creative decisions, this plot is not believable like a lot of other stories from Thor past canon, you are setting very low standards for Aaron current writing, and he was amazing in TGOT (Gorr Arcs), as you saw in Fear Itself and Axis events, comics stories also evolve and when the execution doesn't need a female version of Thor, Mjolnir is not a character and doesn't make you Asgardian and behave like the original Thor if you are worthy, and that makes any plot more grounded and believable...

People seriously think they're going to do the Female Thor thing in the MCU?

@asgaard: Again, you are blinded by fancy speech and fonts. All Asgardians must be one person to you if you can't separate style and substance... Her behavior and the words she actually says are very different than Thor Odinson, and while they are flowery, they still match the tone and behavior of the thought bubbles.

As for the rest, I really have never cared that you don't like Mjolnir developing its own will, or even changing the speech pattern of the wielder. It's awesome that you hate it. I'm not sure how you justify the term "outdated" in reference to it. How is it outdated? Just say you don't like it. And none of these details are actually reliant on a woman wielding the hammer. They could have easily had Jane wield it without those details. They're rather independent of the new Thor. I am assuming you'd hate them all equally if a guy had picked up the hammer.

And I was never "justifying Aaron's writing" with the Eric Masterson story. There's a difference between quality and history, and the discussion was history.

Finally, I laugh when you say "it's not believable." I laugh really hard... Norse god with a magic hammer that nobody can lift unless they meet some criteria in a world where mutations in dna and alterations by aliens in the past randomly give people super natural powers... All that, totally believable. But a magical enchantment with basic AI grows over time and develops some what of a will of its own (gee... comics and movies have never had that idea before) and its behavior changes. Oh no. I can't believe that!

I think Rob Paulson... Using the voice he did for Yakko Warner. Extra points if they give him a song!

Some people... Just don't get that the MCU credibility is allergic to the idea that the hammer can be a character and if you wield it (him) you become Asgardian and Thor even if you are human, this people should be ignored...

I think it cheapens Thor to make anybody but Thor the son of Odin the god of Thunder.

You destroy anything special about the character when you do that.

His long life , his noble birth his parents and brother Loki and father Odin his other brothers and all of the 9 realms.

So when I want to read a story rich in history of a god of thunder that has done so much and seen so much and still he fights on.

I want to read about the character that has taken generations thousands of years defining that god of thunder.

Not somebody that picked up the hammer one day and bam oh look what I can do and cheapen Thor and that is boring and close to wake me up with this story ends It is putting me to sleep.

The same could be said for any character you do not have a good story for you simply think it is ok to hand the mask to another and say , we will change the name but the character will always sound the same.

I have to constantly remind myself that it is comics and well it will be campy.

@teerack:

This may very well be the biggest load of drivel ever written.

It's seems that you have a very hard time understanding the concept of birthname. It also seems like you're a recent tourist in your understanding of THOR's history. Or Jane's or Odin's for that matter.

Only willful ignorance or pure stupidity can explain the position that "Jane is Thor".

@teerack:

Again?!? Really?

Perhaps you don't understand the concept of an object as well as a birthname. Or again, it's that willful ignorance or the obvious alternative that you're getting hung up on.

When I say "chair" you, provided you're actually above a canine's level of intelligence, associate a great number of attributes to the word 'chair'. If I'm referring to something with a steering wheel, 4 tires and an engine that would be very confusing and inapplicable.

My children, when they were at the tender age of 5, would understand the difference between Spider-Man the secret identity and Peter Parker his name and true personal identity.

So don't buy the comic. (Here's a hint, despite my defense of the continuity, I'm not currently buying it.)

Or someone that read Thor #8. (Or What If... #10.)

You know its never really that big of a deal they can always put out other comics with the character we wish to follow. You like the one story arc I say more power to it. Just keep both worlds around how hard is it for it is not like actors and time and money. You can pretty much please everybody in this boat for you have unlimited potential to do just that. It is a story after all and it is about whom wants to follow what story.

Nobody is saying a comic book writer has to be a award winning novelist by any stretch of the imagination. All I am saying is I would like stories about Thor son of Odin. When you write those and do them well you have my support.

Other people may love the idea that anybody can pick up the hammer of Thor and poof instant fighter with years of battle under the belt and a love of Ale and women and a craving for battle.

In most cases thought when you cheapen the character you say they are no longer something unique in the world like Spiderman or Superman or Wonder Women or even Batman. When you do those things you destroy the appeal and yes most of those are DC, So let me say Steve Rogers , Luke Cage , Black Canary , Rogue , Quick Silver and one of my all time favorite She Hulk.....(got paid for the past mention)

I like all others love a great story.

Who does not.

Is this that great story.

To me it would not be , but to others it may well be what they have been waiting on.

No lets see Thor married to Sif with a second love that also has his children.

Lets see Epic Odin and the explorer Loki , Balder the brave and Thor and his mother.

Are we thinking this is all that Thor can inspire or maybe Jason is just on a creative break and going with the easy way.

Whom is to say , who really cares.

If you see the potential for great stories why not ask for it?

What could it hurt but by sitting back waiting. You will never get anything. Is this not what the whole comic industry aims for. People to say hey (I want a pint of ale , two eggs over med. and a well done steak......Do not be greedy on the ale.

Open minds let in the most amazing sights.

Maybe we have yet to be wowed , just maybe. You just never know.

I knew Aaron would pull the cliche bait switch on readers to make Jane the new Thor. Despite most of the hints pointing to Ros being the new Thor, he had to try and be surprising with revealing Jane as Thor. Only that Jane being Thor was always the next candidate and that it still doesn't make sense in terms of story, continuity or common sense regarding the tenants of worthiness. Just shameless examples of false diversity, pandering to the catty feminists/SJWs and inciting purposeful controversy to achieve media plugs, fan attention and of course making Marvel money. Who cares about creativity and respecting their characters after all?

@thorite: You replied to me twice and seemed to have gotten more confused in the time between them. You don't seem to know of even understand what i was saying in my posts. I could waste time breaking it down over and over to try and help you understand, but this is a busy week and I dont have time to waste on you. If you can't comprehend my post then please don't respond to me.

Well yeah, he was purposely steering everyone in Roz's direction, but as soon as she was speaking "Asgardian" but with decidedly human thoughts there were only two credible candidates, so not much of a reveal either way in the end. And as has been pointed out before hardly any writers care much about the actual characters, it's all about what story they want to tell, so whether it's Thor, Jane or a baked potato wielding Mjolnir makes little difference.

@antithetical: Agreed, that was such a tacky and trite method of revealing Thordis' identity (I suppose this name applies considering she's Jane.) Speaking of Aaron's lack of care or concern for the character and his fanabse, have you seen his IGN interview? Aaron shows his true stuck up and obnoxious attitude on writign this vapid PR stunt for all to see.

@lvenger: No, haven't seen the interview, have a link?

Weird, it didn't post my reply that I've just made a thread of it for the Thor boards.

@lvenger: Thanks, read it while waiting at to see my doctor.

I hope Aaron's distasteful comments didn't make you feel even more ill whilst you waited :P