@costy21: Not everytime.

@zariusii: If you never took the relationship at face value then why the fuck are you here arguing? Nothing will change your mind. You're not here to debate. You're not even open to accepting what others think. You're here to impose views. GTFOH.

Yeaa. But when he faced Pre 52 Superman he was amped IIRC. I heard he lost to titans. Lol

He had lost his suit when he took on most of the heroes. All of them together couldn't stop him from getting sunlight even when he was extremely weakened. Yeah, he lost to Titans and has wrecked greater teams.

@blackdog2009: Like I'm going to listen to a salty edgelord S/WW 'shipper who can't admit when he's beat. Stop derailing the thread.

He was depowered when he faced the Titans, his travels beetwen dimensions were slowly taking away his powers, when he faced the black lanterns he was already way weaker than in his first fights, thats possibly why he's powerless now.

@zariusii: oh you're listening alright. you hang on my every word. you're that idiotic.

I want to guess Dr. MANHATTAN is at play here, he split himself into too many pieces and some kind of Multiple Personality Disorder going on.

What if New 52 Clark was always Superboy Prime? During Convergence, our Lois and Clark got sent to the new timeline, and in that span of time, they were on Superman short. So in order for there to be a legitimate Superman Dr. Manhattan or someone took Superboy Prime, wiped his memories and made him into their new Clark? And maybe when he died, Manhattan resurrected him, but there was a bit of a split between his N52 persona and SBP persona, which would explain the upped creep factor and then him suddenly remembering everything after following Lois home. But then that doesn't explain why Superman can't sense him or why no one saw him entering his own house....

.... Eh I'm kinda doubting my own theory now.

@raunjisto: prime bring the New 52 Superman is one thing, but him being the mystery Clark doesn't make sense right now

Would be interesting since Prime would have redeemed himself, kind of

Bleeding Cool has leaked it. Search for the article if you want to know, and be wary of forums and social media if you don't want to be spoiled. And be nice and don't ruin it for others, people.

Fucking idiot.

Well.... there ya go....

I expected Mxy or Nuperman. Now its confirmed.

MOTHER F^*^**^TT&*YT*T*Y*YTITYT*T*TYTUTUTUTUTUT&^T&^T&T*T*T

I shouldn't have come to this thread. GOD DAAAAAMNNIIIIIIIIT

@comicace3: same...Spoiler Blocks dont stop me lol, I unlock everything even if i dont want things spoiled :(((((

I have no will power

Also it can't be Prime because during the DD fight early in Rebirth he broke his arm

HE DIDN'T EVEN BLOCK IT! OMFG.

He probably don't know how to put spoiler blocks.

> Checks the thread

> Sees someone has posted a spoiler from Bleeding Cool without the decency to spoiler block it.

> People getting spoiled when they don't want to be.

OK folks nothing to see here. Just move on in your browser, don't check this thread if you don't want to know about the mystery Clark Kent.

LOL, that was a dick move though. I'm happy however, this reveal makes sense, its even ingenious. It ties back to the Morrison run aka the only Nuperman run worth reading about. Ofcourse the implications of this reveal will also be explored which makes it a reveal with actual substance as opposed to something for cheap shock value.

Now on to Mr Oz.

They are going to ignore everything about the new 52 mxy probably

Never has this alternate theory been more relevant

DC does love milking Moore's previous cash cows

On the plus side... I was totally right lolz

DC Rebirth: We're gonna drain Moore's creations dry!

Depending on the endgame of what they have planned, based on what I know at the moment (that Mr. Oz was using Mr. Mxy to alter shit) I'd still say that my alternate is better.

That other 5th dimensional imp fucked things up and gave us angsty Nuperbro. Hopefully Mxy's going to fix things in the end.

Well you were right good job.

In the end it was none other than Mr Mxyzptlk.

I got to say it was one of the most stupid plot twists I've ever seen. Mainly because of Mxyzptlk own words.

He basically says that no matter what universe he enters, be it comics, the DCAU, or otherwise all those parts of him are connected. So by that logic when he escaped Mr Oz prison he should know what the Mr Mxyzptlk of the New 52 knew. So in essence he should know he was no longer in the same universe.

I understand him turning into a copy of Clark Kent, what seems completely out of place is him blaming Rebirth Superman for something he should know he had no way of knowing.

Honestly, the reasons and the why's are a mess. DC once again doing a banged up job of running around in circles.

@heavenlydarkdragon: I was wondering if you had seen the news. But I disagree this is a stupid plot twist, if anything it accounts for the stupid plot twists of the New 52. It corrects the stupid Clark Kent is Superman revelation by making it literally impossible for the general public to think that Superman and Clark Kent are one and the same when both of them appeared as separate people. It gives Mxy a major role that he's been lacking for 5 years since Morrison's New 52 Action Comics run. And how can you say Mxy knowing about the fourth wall isn't a great twist, it makes sense for someone as impossible and ridiculous as Mxyzptlk to know about other versions of himself. You're giving this explanation too little credit methinks but that is to be expected.

And you're giving it more credit than it deserves. Which is also to be expected seeing it's the pre-Flashpoint Superman. And because of that little detail anything goes, right?

Yeah. One of the reviewers I follow on the web, made a very negative comment on this plot "revelation". Which to him was no surprise, he completely nailed it from the start. From day one he said it was Mr Mxyzptlk, and it turns out he was right. But just because he was right didn't meant he was happy at all, with the way things were done. Or at least explained. He, like me, found it stupid that Mxz in one line he's boasting about how regardless of what version of him exists in the different realities, they are all part of him and he's part of them. In essence they are all connected. Problem being that the New 52 also had its own Mr Mxyzptlk. And so his accusations towards this Superman are unfounded. He should know he's on a totally different universe and seeing he's "connected" to all versions of himself he should be quite aware of what's happening.

He always said that DC was gonna somehow use Mxyzptlk to fix the secret identity problem. Even before Rebirth, when Truth was out he already defended that that was gonna be the angle DC was gonna explore.

He simply doesn't like how it's been done. Nor did I for that matter. It simply shows that DC is not betting on being creative, but rather being safe. And safe doesn't win in the sales department. As we have so clearly seen. Marvel is still kicking DC's butt around left and right. Hell, even in terms of TV shows Marvel wins. Arrow is still DC's TV show with more ratings. But still nowhere near enough Agents Of Shield. In fact it would take pretty much Arrow, Flash and Supergirl to match one of Marvel TV shows. So Marvel still winning on all fronts.

He even joked around saying that Superman doesn't need to worry, seeing that the old blue big boyscout is once again front line, he'll use some typical good guy dialogue to convince Myx. And they become best buddies once again. My idea was that maybe Mr Oz was gonna step in and end this, but he's fairly convinced that that will not happen. That this Mr Mxyzptlk is here to stay, and so the typical good guy conversation is what's gonna save the day. Like it did so many times in the past decades.

And there lies the problem. Creativity! Just this thread alone is proof enough of what I've been saying about Rebirth. Last time I checked not even 60 people had voted. Now, the Vine is one of the most popular forum's for comic book readers. So it kinda makes one wonder, where are the Superman fans? I mean with the New 52 at least the Superman part of the Vine was alive and kicking for good or for worst. Now... Now it seems fans don't care, don't want to bother, or they simply walked out on the character, and are not coming back until DC does what it should've done with the New 52. A complete clean slate. Not only of the timeline but also most of the writers.

Honestly there isn't one Super related comic (to me at least) that hits the bullseye. Even Superwoman that seemed to the one more dedicated to shed some light on what happened to both New 52 Superman and Lois, seems completely insane. This week last issue was simply schizophrenic. It was kinda like the writer was saying "Remember back to Harvest? And how he explained he had come from a future where similar versions of the New 52 Superman and Lois had a son, but then their son seemingly died, and they both disappeared. Well... Those were the one's in the New 52."

There's no way a reader can't get pissed off with DC, because DC has this bad habit, that in order to change things it needs to destroy what they did before. And so they change things as they wanted it, they care little for common sense. And then there's this whole thing of pieces being juggled around all to fit and serve one character. Superman!

This is all about pointing all the spotlights on Superman. It kinda seems that DC is so desperate to revitalize Superman and people's interest in him as a character, that they'll go to any length to do exactly that. It doesn't matter if they pull the most idiotic moves I've ever seen. Nothing so far as picked my interest. Not Doomsday. Not that awful version of the Eradicator. Not Mr Mxyzptlk all so Clark White can once again be Clark Kent. If a much older Lois passing as a younger Lois and no one notices was a stretch, I'd really like to see how they're gonna explain Jon. "Hey everyone! Big announcement. Me and Clark we've been married for years now but we chose to keep it a secret. And guess what... We have a son." that would be the atomic bomb of asspulls. That or the old adoption excuse. It always works fine. It worked for Chris, so most likely they'll use the same shtick once again.

If anything my only interest is about the Watchmen. How this all connects to them.

Here's my question:

How could Mr. Oz know exactly where Mxyzptlk,REALITY WARPING MXYZPTLK, was going to pop up for the trap to work, but not note anything about the Mystery Clark that EVERYONE was confused about?

The moment he disappeared and the mystery Clark showing up seem close enough to make it obvious if you know who you're looking for.

According to Newsarama's interview with Dan Jurgens, we're not dealing neccersairly in a linear path. When Myx escaped the prison, I think he was flung back through time to a point where Oz had not even captured him yet

@heavenlydarkdragon: You're actually not wrong. And I've actually made these points a few months back about Truth just not taking risks (shoulda killed Jimmy a long time ago) but I feel revealing Clark was a huge misstep. However there's still room for writing that the public doesn't accept the other Clark. Especially now since he's most likely gonna disappear. But I'm not holding my breath.

@heavenlydarkdragon: Marvel are only beating DC due to gaming the system and overshipping, and nobody I know watches Agents of SHIELD but go on and keep thinking what you think, as half if not all of it of is confirmation bias and exaggeration. We all know you hate the current direction and won't give it it's due credit.

Also it's not a different universe, how many more times does this need to be explained to you before you get it?

As for how they'll explain Jon to the supporting cast...you definitely won't like the answer if my hunch is right about the continuity being readjusted.

Who cares if they play it safe? As proven by the failure that was N52, nobody liked the edgelord Jerry Springer malarky.

@zariusii: Good points but you're speaking to a brick wall in this regard believe me. I do like arguing with HDD if only to stretch my debating muscles with someone so strikingly different to my own views on Superman but he'll never change his confirmation regardless of the fact that Marvel are overloading the retail system according to retailers themselves. It's also obvious that despite his dissatisfaction with Rebirth and perceiving it as a failure, that POV does not make Rebirth a failure in of itself. For all his posts on the Superman board, I can't remember many times where he actually had anything positive to say about the character, including the New 52 version which he claims to prefer.

I'm surprised on who it actually was.

@zariusii:

Marvel are only beating DC due to gaming the system and overshipping, and nobody I know watches Agents of SHIELD but go on and keep thinking what you think, as half if not all of it of is confirmation bias and exaggeration. We all know you hate the current direction and won't give it it's due credit.

You mentioning bias, is like a bad joke. You always hated the New 52 and did nothing but hunt down and criticize the New 52 supporters from day one. Why do you think I hate your guts? Because you never knew like @lvenger to have your owm opinion and respect that of others.

As for the "gaming system" doesn't it all comes down to money? When the New 52 was failing, you and others like you, only knew to mention how the New 52 was doing bad in terms of sales. Now I throw the numbers back at you (or anyone for that matter) that show that Rebirth is failing miserably. And now, the numbers don't matter. Really unbiased from your part. You should really pad yourself in the back.

Right... No one you know sees Agents of SHIELD XD

Are you sure no one sees it, or they simply don't tell you? Seeing you're inability to respect anyone's opinion but your own.

Go and check the share ratings of that show alone and match it to Arrow, Flash, Supergirl and DC Legends Of Tomorrow. And tell me who's winning the numbers game. Even Arrow continues to be the DC's TV show with more rating. Second is the Flash, third and dropping fast is Supergirl, and last is Legends Of Tomorrow. All shows even Agents of SHIELD have suffered drops, but none as hard as for example the Flash and Supergirl. Supergirl from what people tell me, as become so ridiculous, it's a downright insult to the comics. Legends of Tomorrow never really stood out, so there's no real loss there.

Also it's not a different universe, how many more times does this need to be explained to you before you get it?

Right! The 10 years stolen crap! Really, do you simply accept anything DC gives you? I guess now that they have returned your toy, you're so happy you can't differentiate quality in any measure.

The New 52 changed origin stories, that date back way beyond 10 years, but I guess such a important detail still escapes you.

Manhattan stole 10 years... That's so incredibly stupid, I can hardly believe anyone with half a brain believes that nonsense.

That and the simple fact that Wally West confirmed what Pandora had said at the beginning of the New 52. That the original timeline had been broken in three, and thus her intent, although she failed, was to reunite and recreate that original timeline. Meaning that even the pre-Flashpoint period was for all intended purposes a consequence of Manhattan manipulation of time. Wally confirmed this and much more. He also stated that Flashpoint would've happened anyway, and that time had been changed before that.

But I guess all that information also doesn't suit you. Because it tells a story you don't want to hear. And that story is that even the pre-Flashpoint timeline was fake. By all accounts DC said that the entire Modern Age was a creation of Manhattan. Seeing they didn't even bothered to say exactly when Manhattan took control of Creation.

So yeah. Keep closing your eyes.

As for how they'll explain Jon to the supporting cast...you definitely won't like the answer if my hunch is right about the continuity being readjusted.

Translation: DC's gonna come up with some BS excuse, and they'll reset the timeline to adjust for Superdad, right?! Yeah, I've been reading about that hypothesis more and more often.

Real creative stuff.

Who cares if they play it safe? As proven by the failure that was N52, nobody liked the edgelord Jerry Springer malarky.

So when DC decides to reboot the whole thing once again, you won't mind that I tell you in capital letters "Karma is a b*tch!", right?! Good! I'll remember that.

Because have no doubt. If DC doesn't improve the sales numbers, they'll do to your precious "toy" what they already did once... Throw it into the trash.

Because that's the name of the game. And the name is MONEY. DC in the comics, TV shows, and movies as been making flop after flop. The only good thing they still got going is Arrow, in my opinion. While Marvel is winning in all fronts.

Do you any doubts that Logan, Guardians Of The Galaxy vol.2 and maybe the new upcoming movies of Thor and Spider-Man, are gonna reafirm Marvel's consistency as being able to produce great to awesome movies?! While DC as only delivered reasonable to poor movies.

@heavenlydarkdragon: Wait, Arrow has better ratings than The Flash? Weird, considering their comic book sales.

By this point it's not a hypothesis, Superwoman #8 already confirmed that Superman Reborn will end with a retcon so the supporting cast "remembers" Jon and Lois & Clark's marriage. It's a waste of potential IMO (the universal refugees concept could have been milked for more stories), but that's par for the course with Big 2 comics.

I'm not seeing Arrow (I couldn't bring myself to finish the first Season, though the clips I've seen from later episodes are intriguing), but I'd add the Deathstroke and Nightwing books to the list of things DC (or rather their writers) is doing right, and it's a shame DS is not selling as much as it deserves.

Please don't use the term "great" to describe the MCU films. I know it's just on a relative scale to other CBMs, but I'd prefer if that term kept some meaning.

Well at the rate things are going for Iron first this Marvel show will be massively lower than anything DC ever did, at least the reviews already are.

I think it's Myx.

@lvenger: Mxy already broke the 4th wall in Landis story ....

@drgnx: Yes I know, as much as I hate Landis' pretentious writing, that was actually a good idea.

@quinlan58:

Yes. That's what the numbers show. Arrow is still DC's most watched TV show.

For example Legends of Tomorrow is already walking the thin line between being cancelled, or at least where simply there isn't enough viewers to justify keeping the show.

Yeah. Iron Fist does seem to be one of Marvel's losses. But then again we can't simply dismiss the success they've had with Agents of SHIELD, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage. All (with the exception of Agents of SHIELD) which aren't productions on the level of money spending like The Flash or Supergirl, but they've drawn far more attention and positive reviews.

The only thing DC related that I see is really just Arrow. I even used to watch Gotham until it became unbearable to see.

The Flash is still an okay show, but I simply got tired of the same story line they were following. Supergirl... I'll do us both a favor and not speak of it at all. Let's just say that I'd rather read all Rebirth titles, and actually say that I liked them, to see one minute of this show.

Okay. Let's not called them great movies then. If you prefer, we can call them way more profitable (interesting and well done) than DC movies.

Even if you don't personally feel that way, which you are entitled to do. Each person likes what they like, I'm not here to discuss that. What I'm here to say is that numbers wise, Marvel keeps on winning. Not just profit but also in terms of reviews. Take Logan as the most recent example. I personally loved the movie. And the critics have been for the most part very good.

I mean I've been seeing way more excitement about Marvel movies than DC movies.

The DC movie I see people more interested about is just Justice League. Even Wonder Woman trailers have been received with very mix feelings. Which is understandable seeing how both Batman V Superman and Suicide Squad went down.

At the end of the day it's all a numbers game. Numbers matter, not our personal feelings. And numbers have been on Marvel's side so far.

Some, like @zariusII, have called it the system of the game, or something like that... But that's just denying the numbers.

Numbers (and some internal sabotage) dictated the end of the New 52. Was I happy with it? No. But in the end numbers spoke louder. And numbers keep speaking. And what they tell isn't that good for DC Comics. No matter how much excuses some people might come up with.

Maybe DC will actually improve the formula and change for the better. I sure hope so. But I'm simply not holding my breath.

@bluehope:

Yeah I know. But then again Iron Fist always seemed like a loss to me. Even when it was simply an idea. Much like that idea of making a TV show about Krypton.

Also I don't expect Marvel to win all the time. They're already doing pretty good considering the internal struggle and the fact they've made some very unpopular decisions.

Can we deny the successes that were/are Agents of SHIELD, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage? No. We cannot.

So yes, Iron Fist will be a flop, but I personally can live with it.

Although I'm not so sure for how much longer can DC live in the shadow of Marvel.

Movie wise, we've seen what we've seen.

TV show wise, DC as the advantage in terms of number of TV shows, not necessarily ratings. Which in my opinion simply means DC is spending more money just to keep up with Marvel.

Then we got the comics. Three months of lead over Marvel since the beginning of Rebirth isn't what I'd expected from DC. Especially seeing that Marvel isn't even working at 100%. Not with all the internal struggle and unpopular decisions.

Ever since October that Marvel once again regained the lead by a large margin.

I mean if Reborn doesn't change the numbers in sales for at least the months of February and March, then DC is screwed.

[citation needed]

YES! SO glad I am not alone in the belief the New 52/Rebirth, etc, is a different universe than the Pre-52/Pre-Flashpoint! Thank you HeavenlyDarkDragon! ^_^ (Weird, CV won't let me tag you. Sorry).

Eh, I was really hoping it would have turned out to be Hank Henshaw AKA the REAL Cyborg Superman. Disappointed it turned out to be Mxy...

Just seems all kinds of odd that Mxy would even pull something like this, doesn't seem his style at all. DC really reached here...

But, as I predicted on a different forum, now that Mxy's Clark will now be gone, Superman can step in and take back his identity as Clark Kent as I knew all along he would the moment this fake showed up and proved he wasn't Superman. And that I am glad of. I just can't imagine Superman without Clark. It'll be nice to see him as Clark Kent again, Daily Planet Reporter.