What Is and Isn't Canon After Superman Reborn

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Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

We are about a year and a half into DC's Rebirth, and it's safe to say that Superman has been through some major changes along the way. In particular, the Superman Reborn story published a few months back made some major changes by combining the Post-Crisis version of Superman and the New 52 version into one person. Inevitably, that left some questions about what this new Superman's history looks like and which stories now make up that history. In an attempt to try and answer these questions, I did a deep dive into Superman Reborn and the clarifying story arc, "The New World," that followed it. "The New World" (Action Comics #977-8) doesn't give concrete answers to every question you may have, but does provide many answers and visual cues that have helped lead me to a number of conclusions. Without an official timeline or write-up by DC, some of these things are guesses or assumptions, but I will do my best to provide sufficient evidence to back up my conclusions. Here they are broken up into segments:

1) Superman: Secret Origin is back in as Superman's official origin story.

The New World
The New World
Secret Origin
Secret Origin

"The New World" is littered with references to Geoff Johns and Gary Frank's pre-New 52 Superman origin story. Let's start with Krypton which looks similar in both "The New World" and Secret Origin. Superman's Kryptonian parents, Jor El and Lara, also appear to have been altered to closer resemble their Secret Origin counter-parts. Lara has wavy blonde hair in both stories and Jor El is rocking a beard.

The New World
The New World
Secret Origin
Secret Origin

Clark's childhood in Smallville is also consistent between the two stories. In both, it seems that Lex Luthor grew up in Smallville where he discovered Kryptonite, Clark saved Lana by flying through a tornado, and Pete Ross broke his arm.

Secret Origin
Secret Origin
The New World
The New World
Secret Origin
Secret Origin

Finally, Clark's debut as Superman is the same in both Secret Origin and "The New World." It's his first day at The Daily Planet and he's forced to save Lois by catching her and a falling Lex Corp helicopter.

Obviously, these similarities aren't a coincidence. They're there to let you know that Secret Origin is back and is canon again. This makes sense in a lot of ways. Secret Origin was the last official origin story of Post-Crisis Superman before Flashpoint and the New 52. Also, Geoff Johns and Gary Frank are the creative team behind Doomsday Clock where Superman will play a pivotal role. I wouldn't be surprised if Doomsday Clock also explores similar themes as Secret Origin did. The only question that I'm left with here is: Did all of Secret Origin make it into this version of Superman's history? Secret Origin also included Clark Kent in action as Superboy in Smallville as well as his friendship with the Legion of Superheroes. There was no indication of these elements in "The New World."

2) Most of Superman's Post-Crisis stories are canon.

This is hardly a shocker since the whole philosophy behind Superman in DC's Rebirth has been to bring back and reinstate Post-Crisis Superman, but that was fully backed up both in "Superman Reborn" and "The New World." Let me start with this image from "The New World" that summarizes all the villains that Superman has fought during his career.

No Caption Provided

Most of these villains are either Post-Crisis versions of classic Superman rogues or are possibly there to reference specific Post-Crisis stories. We have the likes of Silver Banshee from John Byrne's run, Mongul of Warworld fame, Conduit from "The Death of Clark Kent," Imperiex from "Our Worlds at War," and Manchester Black who was most notably involved in "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and The American Way?" Also, I can't help but notice that Metallo looks exactly the way he did in Secret Origin.

It's not only the Post-Crisis villains that make a return in "The New World," though. It's also the life and times of Post-Crisis Superman that is making a comeback. Check out this image from "The New World" of changes that Superman goes through during his career.

No Caption Provided

In this image we see an unshaven Superman with a re-breather belt from the time Superman exiled himself into space, we see Superman in Kryptonian garb from that time the Eradicator controlled his mind, we have Superman in his gladiatorial Warworld tunic, and we can clearly make out blue lightning Superman (you can all breathe easy, blue lightning Superman is canon again). The only one I can't identify is Superman in that red and blue spacesuit. If anyone knows what story that is from then please give me a shout in the comments. Regardless, these Superman fashion statements all come from notable Post-Crisis story arcs. This image combined with the picture of the villains is supposed to summarize Superman's Post-Crisis history and let you know that it's all relevant again.

"The New World" goes on to directly reference specific Post-Crisis Superman stories such as: Clark's proposal to Lois in Superman (Vol. 2) #50, Clark revealing his identity to Lois in Action Comics #662, The Death and Return of Superman, and Superman: The Wedding Album. There are two things to notice about the Post-Crisis stories that were referenced or hinted at in "The New World." First, stories that revolve around or furthered Lois and Clark's relationship were directly referenced which shows that you're supposed to see them as being particularly important. Second, a majority of the stories mentioned were ones that Dan Jurgens either wrote or was part of the Superman creative team for. This is really not surprising since Dan Jurgens also wrote half of "Superman Reborn" and all of "The New World." That might make it safe to say that all Dan Jurgens material is canon.

3) SOME New 52 material is still relevant. With an emphasis on the SOME.

The first reference that "The New World" really makes to a piece of New 52 mythology is that Ma and Pa Kent are dead. That was a major difference between the New 52's Superman and Post-Crisis' Superman who had his Ma and Pa as a support system. That part of the New 52 was kept, at least. That being said, the how and when it happened was not indicated, so it's unclear whether it still went down the way it did in Grant Morrison's Action Comics or if it happened a different way. One thing that is different is that "The New World" has Ma and Pa buried together while they had separate tombstones in the New 52.

Outside of that, "The New World" makes a few other references to material from the New 52. The villain Blanque pops up in that image of the Superman rogues gallery. The events of the Lois and Clark mini-series are also directly referenced as part of Superman's history minus the existence of a second Superman. Again, that's Dan Jurgens material so it obviously still has to be canon. The only other references to New 52 Superman stories in "The New World" are these two images.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

The image on the left is of the Oracle who most notably popped up at the end of the H'El on Earth crossover. The picture on the right shows Superman battling Ulysses from Geoff Johns and John Romita's Men of Tomorrow story. That probably indicates that both of these stories are still canon (more or less). Basically, "The New World" leaves a period of time after Jon's birth open for the New 52 stories to take place, but H'El on Earth and Men of Tomorrow are the only ones specifically referenced.

Strangely enough, it's the ancillary Superman Family titles that do more to preserve parts of the New 52 than the main Superman titles do. The Phantom Zone criminal, Xa-Du, from Grant Morrison's run on Action Comics recently appeared in a Supergirl story. Morrison's version of the Kryptonite Man was also featured in Superwoman. Superwoman also continues the stories of Lana Lang and John Henry Irons following Greg Pak's run on Action Comics. Superman's solar flare ability would've had to have been canon at one point for both Superwoman and the New Super-Man to have their powers. The New 52 remains alive and kicking in the Superman Family if not in the main event.

Finally, I think you can safely assume that Superman's New 52 history with the Justice League is still canon minus the romance with Wonder Woman. Justice League was DC's flagship book during the New 52 and their storytelling still has a lot wrapped up in that series. It's not a stretch, therefore, to say that his adventures in that book happened even if we're ignoring the fact that he was smooching Diana at the time. The New 52's Justice League is still the canon Justice League.

4) Some stories definitely didn't make the cut.

There were four possible, legitimate origin stories that the post Superman Reborn Superman could have had. Secret Origin was the one chosen which means that the other three are out. John Byrne's Man of Steel, Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright, and a vast majority of Grant Morrison's Action Comics all have to be thrown out for Secret Origin to work. They all contain elements that would create inconsistencies with how Secret Origin and "The New World" lay out Superman's childhood in Smallville and debut in Metropolis. There can be only one origin story and it seems like Secret Origin is it.

Honestly, I'm pretty bummed out that Morrison's Action Comics is seemingly being written out of continuity. It's probably my favorite run on an in-continuity Superman title ever, and it's a rather beautiful piece of work. Its interpretation of Superman's origins don't fit into this framework. However, I do hold out some hope that not all of it is lost. Mr. Mxyzptlk's character profile in Action Comics #975 suggested that Mxy's history from Morrison's run might still be relevant. With that and the fact that some of his run's villains have appeared in other Superman Family titles gives me hope that Morrison's Action Comics won't be forgotten in the Rebirth era.

5) A lot is still unclear.

Big retconns like this always leave a number of loose ends, and Superman Reborn is no different. For instance, which version of the Justice League fought Doomsday during the Death of Superman? In the original version of the story, it's a line-up made up of heroes from the 1990's Justice League International. However, in the current history of the Justice League, that version of the team never existed. Does that mean it was Batman, Wonder Woman, and co. that fought Doomsday? Anyway, there will be a lot of questions like that one and little adjustments to make if this history is going to work as a solid timeline. These things tend to become more clear in time, and not every question has to be answered for it all to work. It's still just a work in progress.

Anyway, those are my major takeaways concerning the new Superman history. With that, I wanted to end by making a rough, unofficial timeline for Post Superman Reborn Superman. I think it looks a little something like this:

Superman: Secret Origin

Ma and Pa Kent die in a car accident (Doomsday Clock #1)

Superman executes the Pocket Universe Phantom Zone criminals (Superman Vol. 2 #22)

Superman Exiles himself into space (Superman Vol. 2 # 28)

Superman on Warworld (Superman Vol. 2 #32)

The Eradicator controls Superman's mind

Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite (Superman Vol. 2 #49)

Clark proposes to Lois (Superman Vol. 2 #50)

Superman reveals his secret identity to Lois (Action Comics #662)

The Death and Return of Superman

The Death of Clark Kent (Superman Vol. 2 #100)

Lois makes her final decision to marry Clark (Superman Vol. 2 #118)

Superman: The Wedding Album

Blue lightning Superman (Superman Vol. 2 #123)

Lex Luthor is elected President of the United States (Superman: Lex 2000 #1)

What's so Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way? (Action Comics #775)

Our Worlds At War

The birth of Jonathan Samuel Kent

Superman: Lois & Clark mini-series

H'El on Earth

Psi-War

Doomed

The Men of Tomorrow

The Rebirth stories

That's my rough, unofficial, incomplete timeline for Superman's new history.

Edit (11/7/17): I changed my timeline to reflect that Ma and Pa Kent died without meeting Lois or Jon as this was pointed out to me in the comments.

Edit (11/12/17): I added Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite and Doomed to my timeline thanks to the comment section.

Edit (11/14/17): Added the Phantom Zone criminal execution because it leads to Superman's decision to exile himself into space. Also, I fixed an earlier mistake I made. The Eradicator controlled Superman's mind after he returned to Earth from exile and before he proposed to Lois. This did not happen in Superman Vol. 2 #57 as I originally thought.

Edit (1/22/18): Added Psi-War at the suggestion of Zandalf.

Edit (5/6/18): Added when Lex was elected President after reading DC Nation #0.

That's it for this post. Be sure to let me know what you think about my suggested timeline and everything else I just wrote. Leave any comments or questions underneath. Thanks!

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#1 Posted by Charan_ (1400 posts) - - Show Bio

Good work.

"That's my rough, unofficial, incomplete timeline for Superman's new history. One thing to note is that I'm not sure where to put the death of Ma and Pa Kent on that timeline. In the New 52, it happened before Clark left Smallville, but that would alter many stories from Post-Crisis Superman's history where the Kent's are alive for many years after he arrives in Metropolis. "The New World" may indicate that they die right before Jon is born, but that's not explicitly stated. So... I'm not sure when it happened or where to put it in this new timeline."

I think they are following new 52 as far as the death of Ma and Pa Kents are concerned. Martha and Jonathan Kent have never met Lois in the current continuity. So their death must have happened before Clark came to Metropolis.

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#2 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

Excellent post, you've made some sensible and coherent deductions about the Post Reborn Superman timeline with the little information DC has made available. I'd like to offer a few comments regarding your breakdown.

Obviously, these similarities aren't a coincidence. They're there to let you know that Secret Origin is back and is canon again..The only question that I'm left with here is: Did all of Secret Origin make it into this version of Superman's history? - Secret Origin makes the most sense for a canon Superman origin. It's fairly generic, which is actually a good thing because it can fit into the current canon without much trouble. I would assume most of Secret Origin is now canon because one panel has an image of Lex gripping a Daily Planet newspaper which is a notable scene from that series.

The only one I can't identify is Superman in that red and blue spacesuit. If anyone knows what story that is from then please give me a shout in the comments. - Hmm I don't recognise that suit either but it must be from a Post Crisis Superman story otherwise it wouldn't be included on there. I'll have to look into that when I've got time, always more to learn about Superman's history.

That might make it safe to say that all Dan Jurgens material is canon. - Indeed, Jurgens has made sure his time on Superman has been returned to the fold. Although we do see Imperiex in both Action Comics #976 & #978 so I believe everything up to Our Worlds at War is back into Superman continuity.

The first reference that "The New World" really makes to a piece of New 52 mythology is that Ma and Pa Kent are dead. That was a major difference between the New 52's Superman and Post-Crisis' Superman who had his Ma and Pa as a support system. That part of the New 52 was kept, at least. That being said, the how and when it happened was not indicated, so it's unclear whether it still went down the way it did in Grant Morrison's Action Comics or if it happened a different way. - Actually it's implied it did go down the same way it happened in Morrison's Action Comics, at least the part where they died in a car crash before Clark left Smallville. Superman says the Kents never met Lois or Jon so any Post Crisis stories that featured the Kents alive are now altered in the Rebirth continuity.

John Byrne's Man of Steel, Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright, and a vast majority of Grant Morrison's Action Comics all have to be thrown out for Secret Origin to work. - Birthright was retconned out long before Reborn was even conceived of. After Infinite Crisis, Birthright was explained away by Superboy Prime's reality wall punching episodes I think. As for Morrison's Action Comics, yeah that is a bummer but it doesn't really fit with the classic Superman portrayal. So I think it's apparent Morrison's Action Comics is no longer canon since Secret Origin and it don't mix at all.

There's also some Post Crisis stories that would have trouble being canon in the current DCU. For example, Lois and Clark adopting Zod's son and naming him Chris doesn't fit since Chris is now Lor-Zod and had never met Zod until the Revenge story arc. New Krypton doesn't fit either because Zor-El was Brainiac's Cyborg Superman and was working on resurrecting Argo City in Supergirl's Rebirth series. And Grounded doesn't fit either, though no one's complaining about that I bet. So the 10 year gap between Jon being born and the Lois and Clark series is the biggest area of inconsistencies for the Superman Rebirth timeline.

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#3 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@charan_:

Good catch! I must have glossed over it or missed it. I'll edit my timeline to reflect that.

Thanks for reading!

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#4 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Thanks for reading and for your kind words!

Secret Origin makes the most sense for a canon Superman origin. It's fairly generic, which is actually a good thing because it can fit into the current canon without much trouble. I would assume most of Secret Origin is now canon because one panel has an image of Lex gripping a Daily Planet newspaper which is a notable scene from that series.

Yeah, Secret Origin was probably the safest, least controversial pick out of the four. I certainly don't hate it and really enjoyed certain parts. I still would've liked to see some direct confirmation on Superboy and the Legion. I love that stuff. As it is, we'll have to wait and see if it gets used.

Actually it's implied it did go down the same way it happened in Morrison's Action Comics, at least the part where they died in a car crash before Clark left Smallville. Superman says the Kents never met Lois or Jon so any Post Crisis stories that featured the Kents alive are now altered in the Rebirth continuity.

As I said to charan, good catch! I must have missed it and have edited my timeline to reflect this. It's still not exactly clear if it went down exactly as it did in Morrison's Action Comics, but... here's hoping.

Birthright was retconned out long before Reborn was even conceived of. After Infinite Crisis, Birthright was explained away by Superboy Prime's reality wall punching episodes I think. As for Morrison's Action Comics, yeah that is a bummer but it doesn't really fit with the classic Superman portrayal. So I think it's apparent Morrison's Action Comics is no longer canon since Secret Origin and it don't mix at all.

You're correct about Birthright, but, hey, Secret Origin hadn't been canon for six years and they resurrected it. If they were willing to do that then almost anything could've been on the table. Also, I would agree that Morrison's Action Comics doesn't fit the mold of Post-Crisis Superman, but I'd argue against the use of the phrase "classic Superman." I think Morrison's Superman, as he was in Action Comics, reflects who the Golden Age Superman was rather well. In that sense, he was a classic portrayal of the character.

There's also some Post Crisis stories that would have trouble being canon in the current DCU. For example, Lois and Clark adopting Zod's son and naming him Chris doesn't fit since Chris is now Lor-Zod and had never met Zod until the Revenge story arc. New Krypton doesn't fit either because Zor-El was Brainiac's Cyborg Superman and was working on resurrecting Argo City in Supergirl's Rebirth series. And Grounded doesn't fit either, though no one's complaining about that I bet. So the 10 year gap between Jon being born and the Lois and Clark series is the biggest area of inconsistencies for the Superman Rebirth timeline.

I certainly won't be losing sleep if Grounded has been written out of continuity. But, yeah, there are a lot of little problems making everything fit in this new history. As I pointed out earlier, the Kents being dead before meeting Lois drastically alters a lot of the Post-Crisis stories. Also, a lot of Byrne's run is inconsistent with Secret Origin with things like Metallo's origin and Lex having been raised in Smallville. All of the examples you brought up are valid. It's going to become a question of what creators decide to bring up or reference in future stories and how they alter the stories from the past to make that work.

Thanks again for your feedback and insightful commentary!

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#5 Posted by Zandalf (471 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14:

Really good post mate. There is also this interesting panel from Superman # 30:

No Caption Provided

This is a portion of two page spread in which were shown the Superman's greatest fears. Here we see Clark that has turned into DD while he is fighting the League meaning that ,maybe, the "Superman:Doomed" story arc wasn't erased from this timeline.

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#6 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@zandalf:

Thanks!

It's possible that panel confirms Superman: Doomed is still canon. It could be that the fear comes from the events of Doomed and what could have happened if Superman fully lost control. That being said, every other fear that appears on that page is a hallucination of something that hasn't happened (Jon being outcast as a freak, Lois dying of cancer, etc.). So, it's possible that you're right, but it's not exactly set in stone.

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#7 Posted by CaptainSnart008 (15 posts) - - Show Bio

Doomsday virus is also heavily featured in the Metal story. As much of Metropolis is infected with it as is one of the dark Batmen

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#8 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@captainsnart008:

Good to know! I haven't been reading Metal. It looks like Doomed probably is canon then.

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#9 Edited by AWildDorkAppeared (1 posts) - - Show Bio

The red and blue spacesuit costume comes from Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite.

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#10 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, I added Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite and Doomed to the timeline since it looks like they are both still canon.

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#12 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

Doomsday Clock #1 confirmed a major piece of Superman's timeline today. So... spoilers ahead:

At the end of the issue, Clark has a nightmare about the night Ma and Pa Kent died. The scene was similar to how their deaths played out in Grant Morrison's Action Comics. Ma and Pa Kent still die in a car accident on the night of Clark's Senior Prom in Smallville. There were a few differences between this new scene and the one Morrison wrote, though. First off, in Morrison's Action Comics, Clark took Lana Lang to prom. In the Doomsday Clock version, Lana goes to Prom with Pete Ross. In Morrison's Action Comics, Clark and Lana are shown dancing and sharing a nice coming of age moment together. In this new scene, Lana is dancing with Pete while Clark watches like a wallflower. This is actually more in line with Secret Origin where Clark avoids a relationship with Lana because he's afraid of losing control of his powers. Also, In Morrison's version, Vyndktvx was implied as being the cause of the Kents' car accident as Pa Kent helped the tiny man fix his car shortly before the fatal crash. In Doomsday Clock, Vyndktvx was nowhere in sight. So.. this did confirm that one element of Morrison's Action Comics is still canon, but it has been heavily altered.

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#13 Posted by Charan_ (1400 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14: Morrison's Action Comics run was one of my favorites from new 52 era. I am glad it's in continuity even though it has been altered. I would like to see Clark's adventures when he was wearing jeans and T shirt (Morrison) in continuity too.

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#14 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@charan_: Yeah, I feel the same. It would be great to have the social crusader, t-shirt and jeans Superman back. I think we really need him now. But... he clashes with how Dan Jurgens writes Superman. They are two pretty different interpretations. If almost all of Jurgens material is back in and its Jurgens Superman that's being pushed as the canon version then it feels unlikely that we'll get t-shirt Supes. This is the thing that annoys me the most about Rebirth.

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#15 Posted by ZariusII (5746 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm glad the social crusader Supes is gone.

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#16 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by JakeFuryV2 (3106 posts) - - Show Bio

Great work, man this makes me miss Morrison on Superman.

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#18 Posted by TheNomadicOne (25 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14: Honestly I think it can still work. While it might need to get heavily altered, the New 52 origin can work as Superman's "venting phase," maybe during an internship at the Planet and then once everything is sorted, then boom the usual stuff.

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#19 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@jakefuryv2: Thank you! I hope Morrison returns to the character someday.

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#20 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenomadicone: Yeah, it wouldn't be impossible. They could do it exactly the way you pitched it. However, from what I've seen from Superman: Reborn, "The New World," and every thing that's followed, it feels like they're doing everything they can to leave it out.

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#21 Posted by JakeFuryV2 (3106 posts) - - Show Bio

sounds like some Rebirth Superman is right up my alley.

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#22 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14:

So Doomsday Clock #1 explains the death of The Kents? I heard it was dealing with that but right at the first issue is surprising. It's much different from the New 52 version in Morrison's Action Comics. No Vyndktvx in sight and Lana going with Pete to the prom instead of Clark are some major changes.

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#23 Posted by OrangeBat (961 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14 said:

@zariusii: Yeah? Why exactly is that?

Dude has an intense hatred for anything New 52. His right to do so even if I find it a bit puzzling.

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#24 Edited by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Yeah, it was the biggest surprise out of Doomsday Clock #1. I have a theory that it will be revealed that Dr. Manhattan caused the car crash instead of Vyndktvx. This is still, strangely, sort of in line with Morrison's Action Comics since it was suggested that Vyndktvx altered Clark's history away from the Post-Crisis material. In Rebirth, though, the time alters are blamed on Dr. Manhattan, so I feel like it might be a pretty safe bet to say that Manhattan killed the Kents which is why they dealt with it in DC #1. But... we'll see.

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#25 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@orangebat:

Ah... Well, everyone has a right to their opinions.

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#26 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14:

Considering Manhattan is responsible for transporting Jor-El away from Krypton as it exploded and making him into Mr Oz, I think it's a guarantee he's also responsible for the Kents' death. Some have speculated that Doomsday Clock will bring the Kents back if Superman persuades Manhattan of his beliefs causing him to resurrect the Kents.

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#27 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Yeah, I can definitely see that happening.

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#28 Posted by Zandalf (471 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14: Looks like some version of PSI wars still happened:

From : Redhood and the outlaws # 18
From : Redhood and the outlaws # 18

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#29 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@zandalf:

Good to know! Thanks! I'll add t to my timeline.

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#30 Edited by JackyLexy (12 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14: What about Geoff Jones Brainac storyline from Action Comics 866? Features Supergirl with Pa and Ma Kent, so it doesn't fit in continuity?

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#31 Posted by Zandalf (471 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14: Seems like Superboy existed even in this timeline:

No Caption Provided

From: Red Hod and the Outlaws # 17

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#32 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackylexy:

Well, the Ma and Pa Kent stuff is definitely no longer canon as they died in this timeline before Clark left Smallville (as confirmed in Doomsday Clock #1). As for Johns' Brainiac story itself, I'm actually not sure if any of Johns' Post Crisis run is still in continuity.

The latest Post Crisis Superman story that I know is confirmed to be canon is Our Worlds At War. This was confirmed by the visual cue of Imperiex in "The New World." It was further confirmed in Supergirl #16 during SG's battle with Strange Visitor. Kara seemed to have working knowledge of Strange Visitor's sacrifice during Our Worlds At War.

Supergirl #16
Supergirl #16

So far, I haven't seen any confirmation of any Post Crisis Superman stories after Our Worlds At War which would include Johns run on Action Comics and his Brainiac story. The only reference since Rebirth that I've seen to Johns' Post Crisis run has been this scene from Action Comics #997:

Action Comics #997
Action Comics #997

That's when Superman was fighting a future version of Lor Zod, aka Christopher Kent, from Johns and Donner's Last Son story. In Last Son, Clark and Lois adopted and raised Lor as their own. The above quote of suggests that Superman did not have anything to do with raising Lor in the Rebirth timeline which would suggest that Last Son never happened. If Last Son never happened, that COULD suggest that Johns' entire Post Crisis run never happened. I'm not certain of this, but that's my best guess. Without any confirmation otherwise, I would assume that the Brainiac story in question is no longer in continuity.

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#33 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@zandalf:

Huh... that's really weird to me because you also have this scene from Sons of Tomorrow in Super Sons #12 where Superman is looking at an alternate future version of Kon El and he has no idea who he is. So Kon tells him:

Super Sons #12
Super Sons #12

So... I'm not sure what to make of that. Maybe the New 52 version of Kon is still in continuity, but the Post Crisis version still isn't? So the version of him in Super Sons #12 is a version of the Post Crisis Conner and not the New 52's Kon, and that's why Superman didn't recognize him... ? I don't know, but something really weird is happening with Kon in Rebirth.

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#34 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

I recently added when Lex was elected President because it's confirmed in DC Nation #0 after Robinson Goode tells Clark that she reads his expose on President Luthor once a year.

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#35 Posted by MightyKalEl (2209 posts) - - Show Bio

The Russell story in Action Comics special has Lex saying that he is running for President. The story was set in the past.

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#36 Edited by ParagonxXx (4126 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14: Then it's safe to consider Geoff Johns Ending Battle story arc canon, as well as Jeph Loeb's Public Enemies in Superman/Batman.

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#37 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by JackyLexy (12 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14: In Justice League of America, Steve Orlando introduced the new Azktek named Nayeli Constant, who later joined Orlando's Justice Foundation. She is revealed to be the second Aztek, since the first one from Pre-Flashpoint died during World War III. But, World War III couldn't happen, since Shazam here is only 10-13 years old, and Black Adam also joined the universe recently.

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#39 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackylexy: I think you're confused over the World War III DC storylines, understandable since there are two stories with that same name in the DCU. The one you're thinking of is the World War III mini series that spun out of the 52 weekly series where Black Adam went on a rampage across the world after his family was murdered by the Four Horsemen. The one Orlando is referring to is a JLA storyline written by Grant Morrison where Mageddon threatened the Earth and the original Aztek sacrificed himself to hurt Mageddon. That one is still in the current Rebirth continuity whereas the Black Adam one probably isn't part of canon.

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#40 Edited by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio

@jekylhyde14:

Actually there are more things about Post-Crisis that did not crossed over to Reborn.

For one the Eradicator is definitely not the same. And if the Eradicator isn't the same then the way Superman was revived after his death at the hands of Doomsday is also obviously unknown.

The Eradicator before the New 52 reboot was a energy being with copy version of that of Superman body, and now he's just a machine. Worse still he's a machine under the control of Zod. Mainly because it was Zod that apparently created him, when in PC the Eradicator was an alien device altered by Kem-L one of Superman ancestors.

Also don't forget Chris Kent! That one is gone for good. At least until the next big change in DC Comics. Lor-Zod is exactly or worse than Zod.

Also the power levels are still somewhat inconsistent.

And there's the Jor-El situation. During the Oz Effect event Jor-El died and now in Man of Steel he came back as if nothing had happened.

So things are definitely different. Rebirth is still its own separate timeline.

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#41 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon:

I'm not sure that Jor-El died at the end of the Oz Effect. My memory on the story isn't 100%, but I think he was hurting from Kryptonite poisoning and then Dr. Manhattan recalled him to wherever he is when he's not messing with Superman. I'm pretty sure that's how it went down, so it's not funny that he shows up alive in Man of Steel. It is funny that he acts like the Dr. Manhattan stuff never happened, but... maybe Man of Steel is supposed to take place after Doomsday Clock...? Still, Oz Effect works in continuity.

The other stuff, you're on target with, though. There are minor differences between some of the characters, and the Post-Crisis stuff doesn't link up with the Rebirth material perfectly. I have mentioned earlier in the comments that I don't know if anything after Our Worlds At War made it into Rebirth (which eliminates Chris Kent).

I have also mentioned elsewhere that I think DC is using Hypertime to patch the Post-Crisis material in with the New 52 and Rebirth stories. Basically they're keeping what they want to keep and abandoning what they don't.

Regardless, the Post-Crisis history is a major part of the new Rebirth history.

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#42 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackylexy:

Yeah, what Lvenger said is correct.

The Original Aztek is from Grant Morrison's Aztek, The Ultimate Man #1-10 and JLA (both are great reads). Morrison's JLA seems to have made it into Rebirth continuity. Aztek's presence in Justice League of America (or the Justice Foundation) attests to that. Also, the JLA moon Watchtower recently made a cameo in Justice League #3.

So... Morrison's JLA is canon again... which is great... but... leaves me with so many questions about the Justice League's Rebirth history.

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