@saintwildcard said:

Hello. Try and avoid making comments like this in the future. Thanks.

Yeah, no need to start taking things personally and making targets of anyone just because we disagree on what's best for Superman.

All I'm doing is standing up for a direction many are enjoying, no different from others who think like me have in here.

PS: Get my name right

@knightofthechronicle: You're happy with the revisionist aspect of all this, is that what you're saying? Because we could still have New 52 Superman around and the old Superman, his annoying brat and that Lois which we never really had in the old universe. Think about it, the whole 'Lois is pregnant' storyline was skipped and boom there she was in Resurgence.

To me it's hypocritical to claim that oh, you were all unhappy with Superman dating WW (younger, different versions of them btw), yet you're all (and by 'all' I mean the supposed fans of this new mess) yet to have this old Superman all of a sudden be ok with a son, Luthor wearing the Superman mantle, a powerless Clark Kent running around and teaming up with younger, different versions of the Justice League members!!!!!

Rebirth isn't "revisionist" that's what the N52 was. Rebirth is a restoration and it couldn't have come soon enough.

@kryptonian24: lol that's why I'm a marvel fan

@blackdog2009: And you're saying that you were happy with the lackluster stories that we were getting in the New 52? Morrison did the best job IMO and after that it was nothing but a few sparks of light in a dark cave. I was okay with the Wonder Woman relationship through its entirety because it was clear that the New 52 was not a place for Lois and Clark to be a thing. Speaking of which, that Convergence title that they had was one of the better reviewed titles from that event. That just proves that people wanted to see the old status quo back with Lois and Clark.

Everything going on in Rebirth is a work in progress! We're slowly getting answers about what's going on and it's keeping me interested. Which was something I can honestly say the New 52 Superman did not. Maybe at a few points, but not enough. And I agree with @kiba, this isn't a revision, it's a restoration. Either spend the rest of your life reading New 52, or get on board with change. You proved you were able to do it with New 52, so do it now.

Whoops, sorry about that. I must have you confused for an other user since you are truly the voice of reason. The guy I confused you for tended to go troll New 52 Superman threads and also enter repeatedly the SM/WW thread only to troll anyone who commented on it. This guy acts as if there is no possible objective arguments and that nothing was good about the New 52 Superman... like, he doesn't care what you say, New 52 was shit and there is no discussion to be had. He also like to generalize and make hyperbolic statements to tarnish anyone who liked New 52 Superman despite those generalizations being entirely wrong. But that's obviously not you.....

@knightofthechronicle: slowly getting answers is a lot of money to pay in comic book buying terms. IT IS NOT A RESTORATION, because you can't simply just go back (unless you throw another Crisis in there) . Aquaman is the New52 Aquaman, NOT the Aquaman that had his hand cut off, had a magic hand, got killed, came back as a hermit, got killed again and came back in Brightest day. Don't even get me started on the Batman family. Essentially Convergence brought back the mess that the original COIE cleaned up 20+ years ago.

And no, I'm not just not gonna stop reading stuff. I'm enjoying Rebirth Aquaman very much. He's basically the very same New52 Aquaman. I'm enjoying the Batman title. I'm enjoying Constantine in the DC universe. It's not all bad. But with SuperDad and family ... yeah, it is my thinking that it's pure crap right now. I liked New52 Superman. I was invested in that character, not the old Superman from a convoluted, full of long continuity universe.

@saintwildcard:

It's been so long that I can't remember all the things I didn't like about it. The main one that stood with me was that moment where Wraith tells Clark about the aging thing, really hated that. Pak handled it better in Horroville IMO.

You mean where Clark basically saw himself losing all his friends and loved ones and ending up desperately alone? Both interpretations showed essentially that.

@blackdog2009: Well more people were familiar with that older and more convoluted Superman I'm afraid. DC needed to go with what sells and if it were New 52 Superman he would still be here. I understand your disappointment but New 52 Superman did not do well and was rarely depicted well.

@lvenger: New 52 Superman was depicted very well by the likes of Geoff Johns in Justice League, Grant Morrison in Action Comics, Tomasi in Superman/WW, Snyder in Superman Unchained and he was even well spotlighted in several feature animated films. The character was around since 2011! He was younger, edgier, kind, powerful, noble and didn't have that much backstory baggage.

@blackdog2009: That's in your opinion. As for mine, Grant Morrison in Action Comics, Taylor in Batman/Superman and Snyder in Unchained were the only ones to depict Superman positively and they mostly did that by writing classic Superman. The animated movies mostly showed the aggressive, angry and moody Superman so they have not spotlighted him well to my knowledge. How can you even think edgier is a positive trait for Superman to have? Morrison even parodied that in his own story with Super Doom. New 52 Superman had a confusing and unclear history given the 5 year time skip so that was worse than the backstory baggage by a long shot.

Yeah, but something about Wraith being the one to tell them steals something from that moment for me. It's a thing that I'd like to see Clark learn on his own. In Horrorville, Clark tried to suppress that darkest timeline, but had to use it to beat UH.

Ultra Humanite still showed it to him literally as Wraith explained it to Clark metaphorically. And I would remind you that me and Squall hated that moment at the end of Horrorville where Clark gives in to his dark feelings to defeat UH.

@lvenger: that's in YOUR opinion.

@blackdog2009: Touche. Still it was the majority of opinions who weren't satisfied with New 52 Superman and sales on Superman titles struggled to get above 40,000 even during events. Now they're 70-80 thousand plus at least consistently and were over 100,000 at the start. Plus the quality of storytelling is much better, in my opinion that is.

I didn't take it at UH showing him, since Clark was narrating what was going on. Clark showed him his worst fear which worked in unison with the moral of the arc. Which was about loss and having to move on. While at the same time mending the relationship between Lana and Clark

Me and you guys having opposing views on Superman? Stop the presses! IMO it was a great ending. It fit well with what the story was about, give us a peek at the darkest thoughts of CLark(humanizing him, also aren't the thoughts he had ones you'd want him to fear? Him fearing loosing his friends and failing those around him? Sounds like a good fear to have), and was a win in an orthodox way for Superman and not some BS power of hope rehash like some people wanted (which would have made this bomb ass Horror story into a My Little Pony episode). SOme people saw it as a depressing ending, I saw it as bittersweet.. I'm not trying to suggest that Superman shouldn't have hopeful story endings, but stories should try to be different as well as their endings so it breaks up the monotony. This story called for it and used it perfectly.

1. General consensus is most of the current DC animated movies are pretty terrible.

2. 'kind, powerful, noble' are the last words that spring to mind when we're discussing this moody vastly diminished prick.

3. Superman should never be 'edgy'

4. Hate to break it to you, but 2011-2016 isn't even a whole childhood let alone a lifetime of longevity.

It's a lot of people's opinions. That's why they gave your "edgy" Supes the necessary boot. People voted with their wallets.

@zariusii: general consensus? You mean all the 100 of you around here who decided to agree one day? Get out of that bubble you all live in! What general consensus is that? You think wb would still dish out these animated films if they were hated? you are all so fickle. Lol. One day you all agree then the other day you all hate each other. in the real world kids still watch and enjoy these animated movies. Casual movie buffs like them too. They're not invested in how different from a comic version or how similar they are. my point was that New52 Superman has been mainstream for a while now. Of course currently DC is killing that systematically.

Fun... Funny how much throat grabbing I've seen in this "fun" sub-forum. I guess because it's about Superdad you see it as fun.

Look. I'll give you credit for one thing and one thing alone. If it wasn't for you I'd think the Superman forum was dead and buried. People hardly create new threads anymore. Something the New52 period had no lack of.

Have you even noticed that...? Perhaps you haven't. But I have noticed the same titles of threads over and over again. And again if it wasn't for you and maybe two or three others the Superman forum would be silenced as a grave.

Look. I always understood why you were never able to move on from pre-Flasbpoint. You obviously wanted more, expected more. You believed that what you're getting now, is what was owed to you. I can understand the inability to closure. Seen it many times and thus I've never judge you for that.

But for a long time you couldn't go on without stepping on everyone's toes, with the exception of the other let's say "closure seekers"

Now you got "your" Superman back, which I'm not even sure it's his name anymore with all this "Superdad" horseshit. Honestly step out of the Vine and you'll see a lot of people wandering in which way is Superman a "Superdad" what as he done worthy of that title. Because people like and love Jon, but "Superdad" gets the worst critics by far. And rightfully so. At best people say the title is comedic seeing there's no such thing. There's a father, a real father, and there are those who are only gene donners, they can't even be called father's.

As for your "Superdad"... Given his position inside DC selling board, and how the little leverage DC gained over Marvel with Rebirth is already going slowly down, I wouldn't be too confident about the lifespan of Rebirth. More so now that Marvel is already rushing to clean their house and get things in order.

Rebirth as done very little too impress me and a lot of people. If Rebirth had been half as good as they were selling it, I'd have been the first one to admit how wrong I was. Instead I don't care if Rebirth fails or succeeds. I no longer even care what Manhattan purposes are. For the most part Rebirth is just something I keep one eye on, from time to time, specially because of those that review both DC and Marvel titles.

Oh! And just for the record I've moved on from the New52. Same as I've moved on from pre-Flasbpoint. I got no issues with closure. I don't expect New52 Superman to comeback, hell I know he won't. But Rebirth will not save DC no matter how much you and the other... What's their names again... Loyalists!? Want it so. The same problems that brought the reboot, the same that ultimately disgraced and destroyed New52, are still there in Rebirth. And eventually they'll do the same to Rebirth.

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

How exactly? If anything Marvel seems to be doubling down on all the Tumblr-tier and social justice garbage that has plagued their comics for the past few years.

Which is, funnily enough, the main reason why DC has overtaken them, by being slightly less preachy by comparison.

Here's the truth about all of this. In May, DC was losing to Marvel in about 6% in sales. In June, DC was still losing to Marvel, but only in about 5%

In July, DC took the lead and was winning Marvel in about little over 5%

In the following months that advantage of little over 5% started to come down, slowly but steadily. All while Marvel was and is still going through some major changes that a lot of people are not on board. All to help DC, but still the difference wasn't that big of a deal. Yes DC WAS winning but not anymore.

Let's take a look at the numbers of October.

Ever since Rebirth started the Super-anything titles with the exception of the very first issues, never got to the top 10. They've been systematically bellow the top 10 of DC Comics most selling titles.

So, Superdad isn't working so well. And regardless of what you or anyone else might think about Rebirth, and how "good" it has been for Superman or Super related titles. Truth is that most readers still avoid them.

As for the lead DC Comics had well...

As you can see, DC in October already lost the lead to Marvel, and Marvel isn't nowhere near of cleaning up their mess and putting things in order. But, they've already begun to do so. Already DC is losing to Marvel and it has been what... 6 months ever since Rebirth started.

So regardless of our difference of opinion, numbers don't lie. Yes a big chunck isn't numbered, but those that download the comics from the web can't be accounted for. After all they're not contributing money wise to either publisher.

So like I said to @zariusII, Rebirth is not gonna save DC. The same problems are still there no matter how hard they try to hide them. New52 didn't failed because it was a bad idea, it failed because the problems of pre-Flashpoint carried on to the New52, and thus the New52 paid the price.

Rebirth might have offered some layaway, a new breath to sales numbers, but that breath is already fading. One month behind Marvel doesn't prove anything, believe me, I know that very well. But if DC once again starts to stay behind Marvel month after month, after month... How long until DC reboots the whole thing.

They're already speaking of a new crisis. I mean, Rebirth barely begun and already a new crisis is on the horizon. And if until then DC keeps losing to Marvel, have no doubt, they'll do to Rebirth what they did to New52.

Marvel are doing pretty badly actually...just recently I learned they'd been shipping free copies of several issues to retailers just to burn off their excessive numbers for November and December..this includes their recently launched Mosiac, Nova and Invincible Iron Man titles

And there's the testimony of many retailers who claim Marvel titles have remained on their shelves while DC Rebirth titles, and more importantly interest in back issues of pre-flashpoint, have been in demand from people voting with their wallets.

But by all means continue to spin that Rebirth is bad news for DC. We all know the real reason you're doing so is because you dislike the direction when everyone important is enjoying it. We could do without your usual doomsday forecasting, but you seem committed to telling us the sky is going to fall. Highly amusing.

@zariusii: I'm gonna help you, but then I'm going to deflate your other point to balance it out.

A) The sales number for AC don't look that bad honestly. It's only been (I think 6, but IDK) months, so it's hard to tell. I tend to find it hard to believe people who are so opposed to Rebirth when they tell me it's failing. The numbers are pretty clear, that being said...

B) Conspiracy theory based on you own bias is in no way going to be taken seriously. People boast about the sales numbers when it benefits them, but then try to tear them down when it doesn't.

In short, everyone is wrong and biased but I'm the only sane one here.

@zariusii:

So if the November and December sales numbers still show DC behind what are you gonna say that's due? Rigged number sales?

If Rebirth was half as good as you and the Rebirth Squad sell it to be, then why isn't it crushing Marvel? Given Marvel current state, DC should be winning in sales by 10% or more. But the little 5% gain was lost in only three months in the lead.

This my not-friend is numbers. And numbers don't lie or are biased. No matter how many excuses or how far in the sand you dig your head.

As for my reasons to not liking Rebirth they aren't some big secret, because from the start I was obviously against the idea. I clearly stated that I preferred a clean slate to all this mess.

Now, why don't you ever admit you never liked the New52, and you did everything in your power to step on everyone's toes that actually liked the New52. Like Harley Quinn said in another shitty DC movie "Own that shit!"

It's easy playing the loyal fan when you are only loyal to yourself. I mean besides from you, do you see me stepping on peoples toes because they like Rebirth. No! Why do I even bother with you... Because you deserve it. What goes around comes around. You should know that.

The issue isnt about DC vs Marvel its n52 vs rebirth. so since some people like posting numbers how about we see some showing how n52 was doing so much better than rebirth?

This thread is soo much fun reading hahahaha.

Anyways, Pre-new52 Supes > new52 Supes.

Deal

With

It

@heavenlydarkdragon: Actually the numbers do kind of lie. Or what I should rather say is that they're not comprehensive. The Comichron site does say it only focuses on North America distributors and that it's based on the ratio figures for invoice orders. But it's the best we've got and I'll be using it in a moment to show you the New 52 Superman sales figures for comparison.

The reason why Marvel is winning again is because they pump out repetitive events like 2 or 3 times a year and basically do a New 52/Marvel Now reboot every year. Which is the laziest and most short term solution for their sales drought. It's like putting a bucket under a water leak, it's not going to fill up forever. Their long term sales figures have been suffering even if they did beat DC. Hell they might be sending free copies of certain comics to retailers to drive up their sales numbers even though people aren't buying their comics.

Speaking of retailers, several of them said in a Bleeding Cool article that DC were still dominating actual sales from customers. Retailers are in a position of knowing more about comic sales than we are or comichron are since they're the ones selling comics if you're talking about authoritative evidence.

So you brought up the sales figures of the Rebirth Superman to argue that they've been below the top 10 since after Rebirth started. I'd like to remind you of some Truths regarding sales for the New 52 Superman comics, like Truth, to compare the sales of Rebirth and New 52 Superman.

June 2015

August 2015

October 2015

Truth sales dropped from the already mediocre 50,000 range to barely staying above 40,000 range. And Savage Dawn sales get much worse.

January 2016

February 2016

March 2016

Gallery

Two more months of disgraceful Superman sales barely making 40,000 before a meagre boost in 3 of the Superman titles and the Superman title making it into the 100,000 simply because the character got his powers back.

I know I've chosen the lowest period of Superman sales with a relative high but New 52 Superman comics haven't done well wherever you look on Comichron. So as bad as you think Rebirth is or is going to be I struggle to see these much more well received line of Superman comics falling as low as New 52 Superman sales did in their darkest days.

@lvenger:

But that's kinda of the thing isn't it. Seeing what Marvel as been doing in terms of moves, killing off main characters left and right... The 5% lead should have skyrocketed to 10%, even more. After all just the negativity all this killing in Marvel as generated... People think the New52 was bad but in terms of people losing their calm, it's been one heck of a storm.

I personally didn't expected such a dramatic decrease in sales, even if they refer only to North America. It was a loss of 10% in just one month.

Although I know one month doesn't mean anything significant, it will mean if the numbers for November, December and so on start to be closer and closer to those of Marvel.

After all they will eventually get their house in order, and if DC is already losing to a one legged racer, imagine what will happen when they're racing again against a two legged opponent.

I know DC is preparing some interesting things already in February. And I don't believe this Forever Crisis isn't so far away also. Even if it's just to clarify who's who, and when did this timeline mess really started and why.

If things continue as they are Rebirth Superman might actually surpass Batman in the longer run, Nuperman never EVER had any chance of doing that. Nuperman fans need to get over it now, there is literally nothing to complain about. Superdad is consistently depicted as being smart, he is repeatedly shown that he's no pushover who takes crap from others(Aquaman excluded). He fights powerful villain and stars in high concept stories, for all intents and purposes he should be satisfying the Nuperman fans. It's clear to me that the real cause of the butt hurt is his marriage with Lois and the kid, Nuperman fans just want him to tap some exotic(preferably Wonder Woman ) ass.

Seriously what else is there to complain about? certainly Nuperman cant really claim to miss a mere 5 year continuity(imagine then what those who lost 25 years must have felt) and not just any continuity, a continuity that for 5 years straight had a terrible main Superman book, a year of Truth/Savage Dawn, Doomed, a bunch of Lobdell events. An era that wrecked Superman's supporting characters and villains, Superboy, Eradicator and Hank Henshaw being the primary examples. The Superman line was in tatters with books that were largely terrible or forgettable.

The only bright spots were Snyders Unchained, Johns brief stint on the Superman book, both of which Nuperman fans dont like either because they channeled PC era, Morrison's Action run and some issues of Pak(which are overrated and blown out of proportion by the Nuperman fans).

What exactly are the Nuperman fans whining about again?

Exactly. Thier biggest gripe is just "untapped potential" and "the writers screwed him up, they should have fixed him". Here's a reality check: Whenever they tweeked the guy, he only got worse. You can't put a fresh coat of paint on something that just does'nt fit the general public's perspective of what Superman should be ideally.

Most of the EW52 fans don't like the "boy scout farmboy" route of the character, when that is one of his most endearing and inspiring attributes. They don't really want Superman as he is best known at the end of the day, they're angry, edgy types and they want comics to reflect their choice of mood...and as we learned from DC You, and what we're seeing with Marvel, everybody who is cheering ever so slightly up have had their fill of that.

This superman is kinda sueish, he's back to solving all the problems for everyone like in post crisis leaving everyone useless or dependent on him. Unlike the new 52, Superman stopped the big threats/won the ultimate battle but wasn't the flawless/unstoppable in stopping everything around him and needed help, support, even worked together with his non heroes cast to solve problems he couldn't approach. Superman shouldn't be all perfect and competant, unless it's played for comedy. I couldn't read the old post crisis stuff, he would fly to get a tissue from millions of miles away so someone cold blow their nose into it before they sneeze. That kinda of stuff is annoying and makes reading god level characters boring.

@zariusii: This is what you were talking about^^^

@jogga: Yep, best to just ignore deep-rooted ignorance like the post above yours. He clearly does'nt "get" it.

He also clearly has never done any real research on post-crisis Supes, otherwise he'd know that character had crucial flaws in trying to accomplish his feats also. The stakes are much higher and more effective dramatically now that he has a family.

@viral4343: This Superman is not really solving all the problems by himself. Against the Eradicator, both Lois and Jon helped. I didn't read the end of his fight with Doomsday (I dropped Action until that arc ended) but he needed Wonder Woman's help. Apparently Jon saved him against the Godslayers on the previous Action issue. And of course he is not solving Lana's or Kara's problems on Superwoman or Supergirl.

As for flaws, he has shown himself to be somewhat quicktempered lately. Against Lex on Action's first issue, against Kathy's dad and the Eradicator on Superman #2, against Bruce and Damian on Superman #9 (though Jon defused that fairly quickly). It honestly makes me wonder what he'll do once Jon really gets hurt.

I can't believe this discussion has lasted as long as it has. And since I have nothing better to do, I'll chime in.

I was a fan of the New 52. His personality was far from perfect, but to me, he emulated someone that was working and improving on himself, as slow as it was. And since that was something I could relate to, I liked it. Now, some folks preferred his more "complete" personality, and that's fine too. It really does disgust me when some users don't have enough respect for others opinions that they degrade others and themselves with petty and insulting terms to refer to the fans of one or the other.

One thing that Superman has now that he didn't before was cohesion. And cohesion is priceless when weaving a story. A lot of the New 52 Superman's story arcs felt disjointed, separated and awkward. Superdad is a lot smoother and feels more together, like there's one vision (albeit, I've read very, very little of Rebirth Superman, so this is just my impression of what I did read). There's a single direction for him now, and there's an air of stability around his storytelling. That's good! I like that there's an openly positive reception of Superman that doesn't get criticized for [x] reason(s). I also like how his sales went up, for a time.

However, whatever nostalgia spiked Superman's sales (and let's not pretend it wasn't nostalgic fans, be honest; good writing alone does not = sales, otherwise no well written comic would ever suffer) has begun to wane, and then some. At the end of the day, Superdad will be affected (afflicted?) by the same stigma that stuck to Pre-Flashpoint Superman in the first place; to those that are not devoted fans, he often (not always, but often) comes off as a bore. There's not enough fire in him, not enough rough edges (this does not mean edgy, to those that are quick to jump on the term, it means he doesn't have a lot of obvious imperfections) that can help (not make, but help) make him relatable. He seems to be quick to anger now, which is a tad unusual to see, given how he should be well adjusted to this, but it's not unwelcome.

In the end, I predict Superman declining back to where he was before Rebirth and before Flashpoint, a mid-seller (fluctuating so) comic that people will eventually start to rag on "because it's cool". Before that happens, I hope more people give Supes a chance and take up his comics. I personally am not interested in Superdad (still not over New 52 Supes just dying like that), but I still would much, much rather have others reading and enjoying his comics than shunning them. I don't care whether the mainstream is pumping out my version or not, I just want him supported.

And at the risk of this coming off as even more of a rant, I'm gonna step on out now

@reactor: Who the hell cares what short-term fans think? How is Superdad a "bore" when the acclaim is through the roof right now? How can you gauge an opinion of the character if you've only read a certain small percentage of the books? Try the full thing and maybe you'll form a hard-earned opinion.

Keep your doomcasting to yourself. Superdad's doing just fine. lvenger already schooled your sort on the sales, you're just being selective with what you read because you agree with the people who miss their deceased edgelord.

This kind of hostility right here represents everything wrong with fans who express themselves as you do. You're behavior is overwhelmingly hostile, closed-minded and short-sighted. If the only way you can communicate is as a crusading zealot, you can talk to someone else, because I'm not going to converse with someone that can't be even-tempered.

There's no such thing as a short-term fan. You're either a fan, or you're not. Now, it is possible to lose a fan, just as it's possible to gain one. What you call a "short-term" fan is what I see as a prospect, someone that is or is trying to get into a new outlet or character. And all of us should care what they think because they have the right to enjoy a particular character (Superman, in this case) the same as everyone else.

You're confusing the critical reception of a comic (which has multiple factors that contribute to one enjoying the overall experience) with the criticism of a character. I've seen a good share of the reviews, I know there is quite a bit of positivity surrounding Superdad right now (not "through the roof", it's very good, but it's not like such a reception is groundbreaking or phenomenal), and that's great. Superman as a character totally deserves it, imo. However, you must be living under a rock if you've never noticed how the vast majority of people that were not, or are not, fans of Superman consider him to be boring (regardless of whether this comes from ignorance or experience). I do not agree with the sentiment, but I know it's there and widespread.

And Superdad isn't a character I barely know. I grew up on Pre-Flashpoint Superman. In Rebirth, he's the same guy I've always read about, just going through the chapter of parenthood (save Chris Kent, I suppose). So I can try to gauge what the opinion of him will eventually become, which I stated was only a prediction, simply because he is the same character. The point I was making (which you either ignored or didn't catch) is that the sentiment regarding him would return due to this.

I have neither the time nor casual funds to buy all the comics of Superman during Rebirth, which is why I don't. I'll look here and there, but that's it. And from what I have read, his personality is back to his modern-classic status (basically between CoIE and FP). I don't need to read every comic in the last few months if I've read a whole lot more over the course of years, regarding the same guy.

Finally, it isn't doomcasting to be pragmatic. People's opinions of Superman, by and large, will likely not change even if his comics spike in quality. If you don't like what I write, just skip my posts (I normally do that with individuals whose opinion is one I consistently disagree with). Superdad is doing fine indeed, but his situation is not as overwhelmingly stellar as you're making it out to be. There is no "schooling" to be had on sales, HDD just posted the sales for October. He's not doing badly, which is the impression you seem to get if I'm not saying he's dominating the market, but it is nothing astronomical. There's nothing selective about what I'm saying; I'm not a particular fan of Superdad, but I'm not discrediting him either. Just because I liked another version of him doesn't induce ignorance.

And once again, you persist in your petty and juvenile behavior. You don't like New 52 Superman. I get it. Probably everyone here gets it. Others did like him. It is not a crime. That does not make them subhuman or their opinions and tastes invalid. Learn and understand not everyone likes everything you do, or at least perhaps not in the same capacity. I like Supes. So do you. I prefer New 52. You prefer Superdad. While I strongly dislike your conduct, I've never discounted your perspective. Learn to do the same for others.

@lvenger and me are now FB pals, so I think it's okay to do a bit of ball busting, but to be fair he's the same guy who saw that a drop in sales when SM/WW when from issue 1 to issue two was a sign of it going to crash and burn in the cancellation sense (I mean... it do go on for like 25+ issues). When Superman Unchained suffered the same massive drop around the same time. Me as a guy who had been reading comics for only a few years knew about the drop in comics from one month to the next, especially after number ones.

Do keep in mind that I don't give a shit about the sales or how well Superdad is doing. I've closed the books on Superman, so I'm just joshing.... I'm looking at you Zazu

I really don't feel like debating when it comes to Pre or New, but as someone who's grown up on both a Mexican Farmtown and a Kansas Farmtown, Pre 52 Superman was no farmboy. Pure lip service, or at best he is when he's young but once he gets to the big city that aspect of the character is replaced with middle class white guy.

Boy Scout- Yes

Farmboy- No

Greg Pak has been the only guy I've seen to write him like a Farmboy outside his youth. Call Pre 52 Superman better, call him an icon, call him whatever you want.... but I will not allow you to call him something he is not. I'm friends with plenty of farmboys and I won't have you insult them.

@reactor:

A toast Comrade... to a fallen friend. No one is truly gone until they are forgotten

@saintwildcard: Do they struggle with depression? Farm-life is very stressful and farmers have to get other jobs because it's so difficult. Nowadays, it's even tougher thanks to Monsanto. I've enjoyed this book, but it still is very cartoonish to me if I'm looking from a character perspective. I just enjoyed it as mindless fun, but is that a problem for you?

@heavenlydarkdragon: I can see where you're coming from, I guess another analogy for what you're saying is that one guy is barely beating another guy in the race even after the second guy has shot himself in the foot. Under that lens it does seem that DC's temporary lead is disappointing. Nonetheless, Marvel are not doing as well as they used to and the market share has always been tight between DC and Marvel.

Actually as far as November numbers go, Batman does consistently well over 100,000 every month and Entropy_Aegis has predicted that Batman and Robin's guest appearance in the Super Sons arc will increases the sales of Superman for November. As for December, DC has an event comic of their own so that will sell well in December.

When will Marvel enter a two legged candidate in the race? Between their events, killing off established iconic characters and delays, they're still a one legged racer.

Huh, what Forever Crisis? Do you mean what's going on with the Rebirth mystery, Mr Oz and Dr Manhattan? That's a long game story which will probably be finished by Johns when he's free from the DCEU.

@saintwildcard:

>says he's closed the book on Superman.

>Immediately makes a post saying Pre 52 Superman wasn't a farmboy compared to New 52 Superman

So what gives you the right to say Pre 52 Superman wasn't a farmboy? Yes you've lived in farmtowns but why are your experiences the authoritative measure for farmboyness? Why does the 25+ years of Post Crisis Superman comics that you haven't read get cancelled out by one writer? For all you know there were Pre 52 Superman writers who were farmboys too. It's equally lip service to say New 52 Superman was a farm boy when only Pak wrote him that way according to your opinion, and he's not the definitive writer for New 52 Superman.

I'd welcome all criticism.

Anybody complaining about Superman having this kind of family, just on that basis alone is no real criticism.

This Superman is, thankfully, more consistent than New 52. That was due too the groundwork of the New 52 itself being too shaky, and the writers just doing whatever the hell they pleased. That's it.

@saintwildcard that's rarely any good, considering Pre-52 has a knack of visiting, talking about, and/or recollecting his time in the Farm in Smallville. If you can't find a Pre-52 comic that doesn't have Superman spending his time in, or remenesing about, Smallville that's one thing. However, that Superman's been around for 35+ years, and there have been countess upon countless instances where he goes back to Smallville, be it for emotional support to just being there as Clark Kent visiting his parents. All of them demonstrate in diffrent ways how his upbringing as a "farm boy" created the person who he was, as the mild mannered town created the mild mannered Clark you actually see. So yeah, in the most important context you need, this Clark IS a "Farm Boy".

Also, I've yet to see how you gauge who is a farm boy exactly. Best I've seen you say, which is not much as I haven't been here for some time so forgive me, is someone you can personally relate to as an average joe, of which need I remind you is entirely subjective in the long run.

@Reactor I empathize with everything you said in the response, as I understand that New 52 was treated so poorly in the end, and wasn't even given the death a real Superman deserves.

However, I can still empathize with @zariusii on one thing. And it's the fact that you, despite voicing some clear and eloquent opinions and concerns, have been just forecasting bad luck on a ever shifting perspective on the new Superman status quo, something that shows a slight, but clear, sign that you are definitely a bit bitter about the new status quo.

Clark isn't a Farmer, he's second generation. His dad would be the depressed one. That being said, all the dads and family members that I knew weren't depressed.

Because the Farmboy aspect of the character has never been the important part of him. It was just a method to have him be humble and at the same time have him be secluded so that no one saw him use his powers. But let's even argue that Golden Age wrote him as a Farmboy, that's 70+ years ago, the way we are is very different from back them. For the longest time in the characters history (Golden and SIlver Age), it was Dorky Clark Kent and SUPERMAN! In the end, it hasn't mattered if Superman was a farmboy for the majority of his incarnation, as most people just take being a farmboy as humble and nice.

As to why? You don't have to take my experiences seriously and in the end like I said the Farmboy aspect hasn't really mattered. But the fact that I grew up in both a Mexican and currently reside within Kansas (you know.... where he lived), and the differences between the farmboys of both towns is cosmetic (One's christian the others are Catholic. Ones like Country/Classic Rock the others like Banda) should matter somewhat. It's not like I'm basing Clark Kent of me, I'm basing it on the overall experience of the similarities they both share overall.

I once thought about saying something when it came to Mark Waid when it came to farmboyness, but his Wiki says he grew up in a Pig Town, which is kind a like a farmtown. But I would have to say that he was probably more a fan of the Silver Age and then did his best to modernize it, as opposed to add his perspective when it came to farmboys.

It can't be lip service if the nuances are what made him a farmboy.

As for Reading post Crisis. You're right, I haven't read much, but I've read all the origin stories, stories where he makes an appearance, some big stories and seen several scans. Can there be some hidden gem that will speak to me and give me the feeling of a farmboy? Sure, I've yet to find it but I wouldn't rule it out. Do feel free to point some out

Yep, the criticism of Superman having a nice family like most families in the world is not a good enough criticism. And the consistency of Superman in Rebirth is a big improvement from the all-over-the-place New 52 Superman.

That's what I mean by lip service. Visiting and having memories a farmboy does not make. Let's take a look at a more extreme example since people seem to think that being a farmboy is just being nice and humble. It's like if a black dude who grew up in the ghetto, but leaves to make a life for himself. He's more adjusted and what not, goes back and visit from time to time, but he is almost a completely different person than the people in that town. You would talk to him at your job and never have guess that he grew up in the ghetto if it weren;t from him saying he did or that he visits the ghetto.

One of the things that I see that the new 52 did, was remove the Dorky Clark Kent aspect and just made it Clark Kent. That helped alot. Clark Kent wore Flannel and spoke like a normal guy (During Pak's run mostly). The way he got mad (he curses, not like a sailor) and spoke to people felt more normal as well as his posture. When Clark was hanging out with Lana or when he talked to the People of his City Block during Truthl. That speech he gave the city block felt personal, and not so rehearsed or over the top. There was a connection on a personal level as opposed to a hero appreciation level. There's a relaxed and familiar air to him. It's the small nuances that made a huge difference for me.

One says he's a farmboy, the other just is

Edit: butl let me give better examples

Finds City life Stuffy: hell never fully intergrate to city life hell just live there. Being in a suit would be stuffy so when hes off he wears normal clothes. Flannel and maybe sports team shirts.

Cand hang with the guys: he can ball bust, shoot the shit, go to a bar, watch sports, play some sports.

Hobbies and likes: knows how to fix up cars, has an ear for country and classic rock.

@saintwildcard: Oh, okay! I'm not familiar with Kansas farmers, but it's an issue where I'm at. Of course, I had to go dark with it! lol I guess that's why I was always a Batman guy first. Although, not now. I prefer Rebirth Superman way more than Batman!