@heavenlydarkdragon: Didn't they say pre-n52 that Supergirl had to potential to be stronger than Superman, too?

Though, you are right that if they do anything with it, it will be just so Jon can fight his dad. There really isn't any other reason they needed to say that.

@heavenlydarkdragon: I could buy that his unstable genes make his growth unnatural and therefor stronger than his old man, but you need weakness added to it or it becomes kinda silly. Even when it comes to Superman, I've said that Blue Sun and Sun Dipping need to have their draw backs.

Funny you say that, considering an upcoming arc is Manchester Black with Jon by his side (basing it on the cover)

@rdclip:

Yes. It was kinda weird though. It was hinted that because pre-Flashpoint Supergirl ship that kept her in stasis for decades, and had yellow sun emitters. That because she had effectively been soaking up yellow solar energy for as much time as Superman. That made her more powerful than Superman.

But later DC simply explained that because Superman had been raised on Earth, and had to learn to control his powers as they appeared and developed. That Superman simply had a level of control that Supergirl didn't have.

They show some hints that she was more powerful, when for example Kal was tracking Kara, while she was flying and she apparently gave him the slip. Later when Luthor uses Black Kryptonite to slip Kara into two. One representing her normal mind, the other representing her inner desires. When Superman and the JL had to track them down, good Supergirl became infuriated with Superman and started punching him while saying "Give up! Everyone says that I'm more powerful than you." and Superman knocks her ass to the ground in one punch while at the same saying "Don't believe everything you hear!". He then goes on to say "You never realized that I had to grow with these powers, learn to use them in order to not hurt anyone by mistake. You however, never went through something like that, and so all you know how to do is simply use them. But hear this. I could have found you, or stopped you anytime I wanted to."

So again, DC started out with something, and then they saw how little sense that made, and fixed it later on.

Maybe they'll fix Jon. Maybe the classical gene incompatibility will eventually kick in, and Jon now supposed greater potential, will be dropped to below Superman levels. As it should be.

@heavenlydarkdragon: There is no maybe here, they will fix Jon. Sooner or later, it will happen. Like you, it doesn't make any sense to me that Jon should be more powerful than his dad because Jon is a hybrid. So glad I'm not alone in this opinion, as on another forum those fans are all for it. Strangely enough...

But just as with Supergirl being more powerful than Superman, then later dropped, Jon being more powerful than Superman will be dropped as well. Sooner or later, it will. To quote what you said, "As it should be."

Anyone know superman age now? I hope he's at least on his mid 30s now, I hate superman being young since he was supposed to be a wise veteran hero and an inspiration to other superheroes like Captain America is to Marvel.

I haven't voted yet because, frankly, I'm still feel the need to let everything settle. A few things are still a bit bewildering, and for that I'll need to wait as reviews come out, but I felt strange just voting "not sure". Feels too... inconclusive.

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

@saintwildcard: @orangebat: @rdclip:

Here you go...

... Batman giving us some very strange information.

That's why I said that if the meta-gene had been included in the affirmation/explanation, it would actually make some sense. Seeing the meta-gene together with kryptonian genes could in theory point to Jon developing his powers not only faster but also other powers kryptonians don't normally have. Like it was the case of Connor in Pre-Flashpoint.

In Pre-Flashpoint we all saw many times being hinted or hypothesized that Connor would eventually surpass Superman in terms of power. Although other writers didn't agreed with that and thus Connor was more like close to kryptonian power levels, but never quite there.

That's why Supergirl dislocated his jaw with little effort, and he almost ended up dying the first time he got beaten by Superboy-Prime. At the time Lex, that saved Connor's life, said that his hybrid nature, made him more vulnerable to "gene exaustion" meaning that if he pushed his powers to their limits for too long or took too damage, because he was only half kryptonian his body would not be able to fix the damage.

Even the supposed kryptonian-human genetic incompatibility, seems to have been forgotten by DC. All versions of Connor had to deal with it. Even Lor-Zod aka Chris Kent, that was a pure blood kryptonian, that had gotten his DNA changed because he was born in the Phantom Zone, had to deal with rapid aging issues.

But Jon... They already want to make him more powerful than Superman. And it as already been shown that his powers, like heat vision, can easily hurt Superman. So if someone wants to kill Superman, I guess the easiest way right now would be to brainwash Jon and use him to make that happen.

Which to me is a very foolish move from DC.

It feels a bit weird that Superman and Lois have to bring in Batman to do the analyzing and smart-guy stuff, even as a Batman fan. Almost feels like they're trying to make him part of Superman's supporting cast.

I'm guessing "Genius MacGyver Superman" will never ever come about now?

Gave it a go didn't like it should have just made them separate and got it over with. Still glad to old fans got their supes back hopefully they stop whining now. Still not feeling the kid though maybe he will grow on me but i'm not reading supes any time soon.

A pity, because the books are objectively and infinitely better now

I am pretty sure that Jon's potential greater power than his father is gonna have a catch to it by the end of the Black Dawn arc. Like Jon's young body can't handle that level of power and almost destroys itself when Jon taps into it. Thus preventing Jon from regularly using that level of power and keeping Superman as the top dog of DC's powerhouses. The Supergirl being more powerful than Superman subplot was eventually put to rest by Loeb, I wouldn't be surprised if Tomasi does something similar with Jon.

It's acutely worst than you think.

Sometime ago Superman took Jon to the Fortress to run some tests on him, after what I believe was an incident where he fell off a tree and hitting the ground he became unconscious.

Here you go...

Then. Sometime later Damian Wayne kidnapped Jon to run some tests on him, and Superman almost got into a full blown fight with Batman and Damian. Where Batman lands this pearl...

"Human diagnosis may find something kryptonians missed"

So. What's supposed to be a technology from a super advanced race, couldn't detect what human machines would show. This is so insane on so many levels, I'm just glad I stopped following Super related comics, or things like these would really bother me.

As it's I've been simply following up on reviews, done mostly by unbiased people. That know how to deliver all the info without splattering their fanboyism into the reviews.

And honestly I still don't get why Superman always needs Batman to tell him stuff. It's been like this for decades now. Superman that was supposed to have the super-brain, rarely uses it. And Batman funny enough, is an expert in so many fields that if he like Luthor, dedicated 1/10 of his time to fixing the world problems, he'd achieve more as Bruce Wayne than he ever achieved as Batman.

So that's that. At the time this was bad enough. Until Bruce once again delivered another bomb, and educated a always clueless Superman into things he should know by himself.

It's stuff like this that sometimes makes me wish for the old Silver Age days. When Superman did his stuff on his own. When it wasn't needed to have Batman show how little Superman actually knows.

I don't know if the writers are actually aware of it, but it's really insulting to have a guy with the brain power that surpasses any supercomputer, be the clueless guy in the room.

That's almost like asking people to stop being stupid. That's simply not gonna happen.

If Jon actually becomes more powerful than Superman, someone will complain.

If Jon for some reason becomes less powerful than Superman, someone will complain.

If Jon, starts to suffer from the kryptonian-human incompatibility, and for some reason loses all of his powers, someone will complain.

If Jon, kryptonian-human nature, makes him develop powers Superman doesn't have, someone will complain.

If Jon, doesn't manifest every kryptonian power, someone will complain.

Been on that train long enough to know, there's no pleasing the entirety of the Superman fandom. Specially if you throw new stuff to the hardcore old school fans. That's like their kryptonite. Writers try to do something different, and the old school hardcore fans will be all over his ass.

And that's also most likely the reason they chose to give Jon, this level of power and the same powers as Superman. They already did the hybrid clone with the Tactile Telekinesis. They already did the orphan kryptonian boy, born to some very nasty people, being adopted by Clark and Lois, that later on went to suffer from being born in the Phantom Zone. They already did quite some years ago, a story named The Son Of Superman. Where we got basically what they're doing with Rebirth and Jon, only differences were that that son of Superman and Lois, only started to manifest any powers during puberty, and still he wasn't as powerful as Superman. So now they're going with the new old stuff with a twist.

@heavenlydarkdragon: So you are still following Superman then. Also most of the reviews, including unbiased fan blog ones, have been mostly positive about the Superman comics. Including newer fans who got on board with New 52 Superman too. So this Superman is actually appealing to both sides of the fandom.

@lvenger:

Not really. No. I've been following what people sometimes hint are key moments in the Rebirth.

To say that I've been following Superman, would imply that I'm actually reading the comics or at the very least following up on the reviews about Superman titles specifically. I've been doing neither.

I see reviews about Rebirth in general. Specially those that talk about all comics not just those of Superman. I found out, that it helps, in the overall evaluation of the quality of what's been released.

Which indeed shows that people are becoming more drawn to DC Comics, but not so much Superman specifically. In that regard, Batman still wins by a long shot. Even when referring to Superman I've seen a preference for the JL comic and no so much about Superman himself.

And of course there are those that bring up Superman specifically and bring up praises, questions and even negative critics. So it's well balanced. But as there are those that bring up Superman, there are also those that bring up, the Lanterns, Batman, Flash... What I rarely see, is anyone showing interest in Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Cyborg. Those three are really losing the attention of the readers.

I see more comments about Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz than even Superman.

Of course I'm not referring to the Vine only. But also other smaller sites and forums.

Where I see that people are more willing to speak their minds without getting crucified in the process.

So yeah. I know what's been going on with Superman in terms of highlights. But if you were to ask me if I read any of those comics I'd say, that 99% I haven't read them.

Also I believe you noticed that I no longer comment on the previews or reviews of any Superman or other comic of DC, mainly because if I'm gonna comment on them then I would've had to read them. Which I don't. That's why I focus mainly on questions or polls, posted by forum members.

I'm done reading DC titles in general, until this Manhattan and whoever else business, is explained and handled for good.

Truer words have never been spoken well except Trump being an imbecile. The only fans that whine harder than die hard supes fans are Wonder woman Fans (jeez its like nothing should change about her). Its true they will always find fault with something such is the nature of comic book readers.

I also agree i'm not too feeling John and no i don't think a human/Hybrid kryptonian should be stronger than a pure breed one. Unless the hybrid is from another superior race like the new gods, Atlanean, Martian, daxamite, amazon, Maxima's Line those type of being. I honestly don't like John, but i never liked Damien as well so maybe he grows on me. I just really felt supes needed a kid as well especially since he was such a poor mentor.

#RebootTheDCUniverseAgain

@princeleif #Don'tpandertothosewhofearchange

Your loss pal. Most of us are enjoying the books. I'm active on many bigger communities too and a lot do tend to discuss Superman, so your selective forum bias doesn't amount to much...you stick to your little echo chambers to justify your disapproval of Rebirth and nothing more.

People who don't read the books deserve to be crucified IMO because they are displaying a deeply rooted ignorance of the product and the direction without being necessarily well informed of the stories...and for a guy who claims "not to read", you sure know what to select when discussing Jon's power set.

So long as we're getting good stories, and new characters and situations with tons of potential which, so far, hasn't been squandered, I'm good with everything we have so far.

All you have to offer is doomcasting and "They changed it, now it sucks"...what an absolute cliche you are.

Jeez Kettle, take it easy on Pot

Who the hell drinks Root Beer nowadays? Son follows in his dads honky foot steps

Only time kids drink root beer is as a stand in for actual beer, like in the KND episode where they ban kids drinking soda

@heavenlydarkdragon: I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but Wonder Woman has been outselling both GL books since Rebirth started. And while I do see a lot of talk about Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz, it's usually along the lines of "Jessica is a terrible character" and "I don't even know what Simon is supposed to be". A shame, since it's not the characters the ones that are terrible, it's the book. Personally I think Simon has a lot of potential as a Blue Lantern and Jessica shouldn't be a GL at all, but would be cool with another powerset in another setting.

I'd like to see this "preference" you've cited for the JL book over the Superman book from readers. I know the JL book has ousold every Superman book during Rebirth, but it's also probably the single most criticised DC book right now, from what I've seen (which might just be a vocal minority). I've got to admit I'm also probably biased there since I hated the three JL issues I read and never turned back.

In general, internet talk is not a good indicator of what is actually popular (or quality, for that matter). Besides JL being one of the best selling books despite the internet hate, I've seen HJ & GLC (a book that has consistently featured no character development at all, and whose sells don't break 40k) be praised as one of the best Rebirth books, and barely any discussion of Deathstroke despite that book crushing every single JL member book in tems of quality.

@saintwildcard: I do on the rare rare occasions I drink soda. I'd drink it more often if it weren't for the obvious overload of sugar

Well. I guess in this case Superman didn't really needed a son. He simply needs to be more proactive. Which he isn't.

How can Superman be a good role model, when he himself knows so little about his powers. And worst still, he doesn't want to know.

When I first looked at Jon and Clark relationship. I was like "What kind of responsible father let's his powerhouse, untrained kid be around other kids. When at any moment Jon could get into a fight, lose control of his powers and seriously hurt or even kill someone!"

So even with Jon nothing I've seen, read or heard shows a really effective mentoring from Clark. He seems more worried about his son keeping a low key, to not stand out. Which is both sad and infuriating.

Clark really should take some tips from Bruce.

Here's a tip. Try looking outside of the Vine.

And you'll find people that simply show their attention to Wonder Woman by not even speaking of her. She's become mostly irrelevant. If not for the upcoming movie I guess almost no one would be talking about her.

Also when comparing sales numbers you simply can't try to compare Wonder Woman to Green Lanterns. Even the stories are by far way superior to anything WW as to offer. Last thing I even read about WW was that while searching for the truth about herself, she ended up in a mental hospital. Also don't forget they were going at it with the Steve Trevor thing, AGAIN. Hell, even Donna, in the Titans comic, is far more interesting than WW.

Green Lanterns at least deals with issues the reader's can relate.

Wonder Woman... I don't even have to skip reviews about her comics because outside of the Vine and maybe the CBR, no one does them.

Funny how you still comment on my stuff when a) you know me and you couldn't be more opposite than matter and anti-matter b) you know I don't really care what you got to say, but strangely enough you always care about what I got to say.

Honestly... What is this...? Some uncorresponded guy crush? Because honestly, I don't play in that team.

Also. Stop referring to yourself in the plural. That's really sad... "Most of us are enjoying the books" Shouldn't you be saying that YOU are enjoying the books. Because last time I checked, the "US" in Superman isn't doing that great compared to other comics. Which begs the question... Where are those US you keep talking about? Because if you're referring to the Vine. If the Vine is US then you shouldn't really use that as a praise. Seeing your US is like you saying everyone in the Vine thinks like you do. Be careful... Someone might get offended by seeing you use the Vine as your personal quarterback team.

You're enjoying the comics, fine. Good for you.

Also, you got me confused. So people should be crucified for not reading the books, because as you say people aren't informed enough to make the best possible comment seeing they don't have all the necessary information. But! Even if someone is simply well informed, and makes no real mistake or gives wrong information, then they should also be crucified because you feel like it.

When I go to a restaurant I don't expect to see the freaking recipe on the menu. We got the choices. And when the food arrives I give it my evaluation. But by your typical nonsense logic, if I don't know the recipe then I got no business, giving my opinion on what I choose to comment.

And I shouldn't do so, because people like you have no understanding of personal space. Have you checked yourself? You get on everyone's face the moment you read something you don't like. Do you see me going out looking for what you write and arrass the shit out of you? No! Because I don't really care what you got to say.

And the only thing stopping me from being on top of your comments and crucify every comment you make, is because unlike you, other people on the Vine do have a life. They don't go prowling around looking for his next victim. Like you so much like to do.

I'd really take you seriously and even respect what you got to say, if you said your piece, and then you were done. If people came and called you out, then by all means, defend yourself. But that's not what you do. You systematically hunt down any one which opinion you don't agree with.

And that has a name. It's called Trolling. Do a Google search on that.

And saying I'm a Cliché... Jeez I'm so traumatized I don't know how I'm gonna move on and live my life. Better to be a cliché than a prowling troller that has nothing better to do than get on everyone's business! Give me clichés all day, it's way better than to be a freaking leech, sucking the joy and fun of commenting.

You believe yourself to be this bigger than life Superman fan, when in fact you're the worst kind. It's people like you that gives fandom a bad name. Because you think you're entitled to something that exists only on your head.

One day DC is gonna reboot the all thing all over again and all your loyalty will amount to nothing, because DC doesn't care about you, me or anyone else. They'll do what they got to do. And whining consistently like you did with the New52, while still reading what you disliked, really showed how messed up in the head you are.

Honestly I wasn't even gonna say anything to you, but seeing you never take the hint, then maybe you'll get the message. And the message is... BE A PERSON! Before being a fan, be a person. Before jumping to every opportunity to make yourself Superman imaginary errand boy, think for a while, and take the time, to consider in what exactly are you wasting your time with.

Don't worry! It will happen. That's a sure thing in DC Comics. A Reboot or a Relaunch are always around the corner.

Especially seeing that the Overall Dollars Share, taking into consideration every major comic book publisher, DC Comics still comes out in second place. It's been like that before Rebirth, before Flashpoint. Rebirth gave DC only a three month lead, and then dropped back to second place and it as remained so till now. Ever since February it became even worst. Because until January, Marvel not only lead the Overall Dollars Share, but they were also putting out more comics. But ever since February, DC took the lead in the Overall Share Of Units Released and still they were as of last month 7.5% behind Marvel in sales. So DC is putting out more comics but still making less money than its main rival.

Let's see how long DC will like to continue in 2nd place, once again.

Until then. Let them enjoy Rebirth. It will eventually end like everything else, and then we'll see which will the one's laughing. Something tells me no one will be laughing when that happens.

@heavenlydarkdragon: This is a Superman forum so I won't comment much on GL and WW, but here's the summary:

• While I'm not a fan of the current WW book, it's still a much better crafted book the Green Lanterns, which only seems to approach quality when being told from the point of view of the villains.
• The Titans book is terrible and Donna (and Dick and Garth) is barely even a character in it. So no, she is not "far more interesting" than Diana.

I don't spend much time commenting on comic books. Mostly I just lurk here and on CBR and comment whenever I feel like it. So I'm not sure what the overall consensus is on everything (the CBR forum seems a lot more divided and active than this one, though).

BTW, we have seen Superman training Jon in an issue of Action Comics, though admittedly it was just seeing the limits of his telescopic vision and his speed. I may be forgetting other times training has been shown.

Now, as for the question of this topic, I felt largely indifferent towards the new continuity, or rather, towards how it was revealed. The first issue was flat-out bad. Wasting entire pages on a Krypton flashback rather than just a panel or two was a horrible idea. The single splash page of Clark on Smallville gave far more information on a far more efficient way. Having Superman rescuing Lois as his first public action was frustrating (John Byrne already gave us an excellent "first public action" that doesn't make Lois-as-damsel-in-distress an integral part of their first meeting). That said I understand why it was done, otherwise the continuity-obssessed part of the fanbase would have gone insane, but then again I was also opposed to the merger.

@saintwildcard: Well I actually learned (coincidentally from a book on mathematics within the Simpsons) that nerd originated from the term "Knurd" which was a slang word that reversed "Drunk" in order to refer to someone who is an intellectual, ergo the opposite of a drunk

As such I welcome the term

Glayvin!

Now if you'll excuse me I have another mathematics book I need to get back to, with the statistics, and the calculus, and usage of letters as numbers!

N52 Superboy had a cool power set. I would happy if they merged him and Post-Crises Superboy somehow or if they found a way for both to coexist. We have boatload of ex/"retconned - ex" Robins running around, no reason we can't have a few Superboys

I'm glad they brought back Pre-New 52 but having Pa and Ma Kent dead is one of the worst changes that the New-52 made to canon. Ideally both should be alive, but I'd settle for having Pa Kent dead but Ma Kent alive like the movie incarnations show.

wanted them to keep pre-Flashpoint it was a interesting concept seeing him interact with New-52 characters.

Damn HDD, just poked my head back into the vine to see what's up and came upon this gem of a comment.

Not really, HDD makes many fundamental and grave misunderstandings of Superman as a character and a concept because it doesn't cater to his personal expectations or preferences. Honestly I don't think he really liked the character, he just likes to complain about Superman.

Okay I get that, but he still put Z in his place, that dude or dudette (Z) been a real a-hole for no other reason than being one, to a whole bunch of posters, as to how HDD views Supes well that's always going to differ between most SM fans, just hope with this Z learns a different way of getting his point across without attacking other posters.

@lvenger:

Not really, HDD makes many fundamental and grave misunderstandings of Superman as a character and a concept because it doesn't cater to his personal expectations or preferences. Honestly I don't think he really liked the character, he just likes to complain about Superman.

All these years and you still don't get it, do you?!

If you really payed attention, you'd know, what I really complain about is how Superman is written.

You were the one that talked and talked and talked, about continuity. Well... Where is it? The continuity. Because last time I checked Pre-Flashpoint is still gone. After Reborn what you got was not the pre-flashpoint timeline but an adjusted timeline. Or a new-ish timeline if you prefer. Built on the scraps of the previous timelines.

You speak of my personal expectations as if they were a bad thing. Like I somehow wanted to make Superman worst, or not Superman. When what I really want is for Superman to feel updated. I don't want Superman to be just another superhero amongst so many others, but rather a savior. Or if savior is too much of a strong word for you, then at least a beacon of hope and a source of inspiration. Something Superman hasn't been in decades.

Honestly for someone so well informed, you can be closed minded as hell.

But at least you're well informed, something Z isn't. He or she is nothing but a damn parasite. But I guess seeing he's a pre-flashpoint nuts that can't handle a opinion different from his or her, that allows for it all to slide.

If it came down to people like Z, and I'm beginning to think maybe even you, Superman would still be jumping from building to building. Never flying. No heat vision, just his X-Ray vision that functioned as both. Superman would still be beating up criminals, because HEY they're criminals.

The moment I see people not caring one bit that Superman once again regains his old status. That Superman becomes relevant, again. That he actually stands for something that anyone anywhere in the world can relate to. That's the moment I start to understand why Superman is where he is, in terms of overall relevance.

Remember the words of Marlon Brando? "They can be a great people, Kal-El; they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you." What I really don't see is the light to show the way. Superman has become so clueless and naive about so many things about himself and the world around him, that he himself needs a light to show him the way.

And DC is obviously to blame. First of all there should be layed down some grounds rules about Superman. Who's he supposed to be, what he's supposed to do, the impact he should have, how he should be perceived by the fans, how his powers really work and the rules no writer could break. And last but not least, no asspulls and no cliche endings. Strong stories! And by saying Superman I'm also referring to other DC characters. Batman although being the strongest character DC has, truth be told, how anyone even accepts that a normal human in a kevlar reinforced suit, with a utility belt, does what he does... Would be beyond me, if I didn't understood that much like in DB, when people read Batman they're not looking for reason or sense, but rather a good story. And most times than not they get those stories. But one can't do that with Superman, because to accept Superman, is already to make a huge leap in imagination into the unbelievable. You add more unbelievable things to the stories and they become poor to say the least.

Like this thing that happened with Manchester Black. According to the reviews I read about the events, and the later the two comics I had to read because of what was being said about Lois leg being and not being cut off, I almost felt that Disney had bought DC. The cliche villain that pulls the cliche moves, and the cliche ending.

Was that what you were expecting when you said you wanted New 52 to go away? Because I always got the feeling that what you wanted, was a way better quality of writing. But then again it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.