Superman
Character » Superman appears in 18939 issues.
Sent to Earth as an infant from the dying planet Krypton, Kal-El was adopted by the loving Kent family and raised in America's heartland as Clark Kent. Using his immense solar-fueled powers, he became Superman to defend mankind against all manner of threats while championing truth, justice, and the American way!
Is Superman Un-American?
@Mr_Wayne69 said:
"He's more un-Kryptonian than anything. How does a character witness part of his entire biological heritage (that was once destroyed) brought back to life (in New Krypton), then live among them for a year (in World of New Krypton)... only to have it destroyed again before his very eyes, and it NOT affect him? After losing said biological heritage... again (only this time at the hands of the people he's sworn to protect) he starts walking around America like Forest Gump (in Grounded). Yeah that makes so much sense (not). I would've settled for a costume tweak... something with a few Kryptonian symbols... something to acknowledge the loss. I mean the man made the yellow in his S Shield black to mourn losses (in Our Worlds at War), but he can't do one thing in remembrance of New Krypton? :| "
Apparently you can't do that since changes in suits that reflect depression kill kryptonians
*cough*cought* Superman/Batman BS on Supergirl dying if she is depressed and wears some black suit*cought*cought*
Sorry I had something chocked up in my throath, must be the result of being spoon fed crap by some stupidity.
@kadeem:
Cool least im good for something.Just recived Showcase volume 1 the unkown solder .Thinking dark man an hush should be thanking him for costume ideas?But i always loved the golden age heroes.I loved earth two actualy. Which did age the heroes. I even liked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_(Earth-Two) wow their links just wount get that last )
Ah well ..
http://www.comicvine.com/kal-l/29-62833/which is the supes most non comic readers know i think.
DC isn't following up on this idea and leaving it only in issue #900.
I personally think that the issue with Superman is that they're trying to make him to so very American. The point is that America's influence has spread all throughout the world and has basically defined the entire culture that DC's audience has grown up in. So whatever value he holds dear, it's basically what we take for granted. So Superman's entire motivation is the very same thing that we take for granted. We're not really looking at him and going "Oooh, what an amazing rolemodel for me!" because we are living all that he sought to inspire.
Now with his shift to the global way, yeah, go figure. His ideals are the ideals of the western world. So it's the American Way minus the stigmata of patriotism. Thus, it ultimately is pointless.
" DC isn't following up on this idea and leaving it only in issue #900.
This shows that DC doesn't have confidence behind this idea and new direction...so why did they even start down this road?"
Thank god lol. I agree, just goes to show you this was a stupid move trying to make Superman political or anti-american=FAIL.
@kadeem, despite past propaganda Superman was always patriotic and proud to be an American citizen, much like Marshall stated...denouncing that kind of kills the point of doing so and being an American. I'm not misinterpretating anything about him, I'm a huge Superman...I'm telling you that by him denouncing his american citizenship makes it pointless for him to be American, live in America as if nothing changed....and forgetting his past(in terms of the character) and what he stands for. What people don't seem to get is that Superman had ALWAYS cared about the whole world...it's not like he never cared about the entire world before now. This is why I think a lot of people never read Superman until recently....
Marshall, exactly man. As you know I totally agree with your views, and your previous statement especially. @Marshal Victory said:
"@kadeem:
Cool least im good for something.Just recived Showcase volume 1 the unkown solder .Thinking dark man an hush should be thanking him for costume ideas?But i always loved the golden age heroes.I loved earth two actualy. Which did age the heroes. I even liked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_(Earth-Two) wow their links just wount get that last )
Ah well ..
http://www.comicvine.com/kal-l/29-62833/which is the supes most non comic readers know i think.
"
@MKF30: Thanks man most apreciated. This kinda backs up my theory a bit.
http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/rdavi/2011/05/05/the-adventures-of-globalman/#idc-coverAn it should answer some of the crys of why this is a big deal to some.That superman was child hood heroes for many of what is know as the greatest generation.Those who seen world wars an such change .
@tbpinkfloyd
said:
"
DC isn't following up on this idea and leaving it only in issue #900.This shows that DC doesn't have confidence behind this idea and new direction...so why did they even start down this road?
"
Because odds are it was a story wrote in 2009 goyer frustrated with real life events or as the spark of the idea.Back then The curent admistration didnt help the iranian protesters.Their velvet revolution was seen posibly as to risky to suport.Or more aptly didnt fit the view of the admistration. Imho http://screenrant.com/superman-renounces-american-citizenship-benm-113080/ realy fits an makes sence for what they wrote.
All this makes one wonder if the older golden age superman from earth two realy is more popular over all why dc keeps trying to push the character to directions its base fans wouldnt apreciate?Its realy like the hollyweird comparison i keep bring up. Why change someting for a movie an lose the demografic of those who love the source material?Does hollywood realy thing when people say i read the book an i hated the movie will bring in more people?
Ah well quesitons for another time.Gona mellow out with Florence an the machines Lung delux cd an read that Showcase Unkown Soldier Vol 1.
@kadeem, no I'm not you're just not understanding my point....
"Yep, no problem....and I also hate the fact that when these "writers" or "musicians" or "actors" are pissed off in real life about something politically they feel the need to vent it with their work or by unnecessary speeches that nobody cares about. But using Superman as a crutch or tool for revealing "his political" views is kind of lame imo as one, Superman isn't about politics as most true fans know about the character and secondly, kind of a dull topic.@MKF30: Thanks man most apreciated. This kinda backs up my theory a bit.
http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/rdavi/2011/05/05/the-adventures-of-globalman/#idc-coverAn it should answer some of the crys of why this is a big deal to some.That superman was child hood heroes for many of what is know as the greatest generation.Those who seen world wars an such change .
@tbpinkfloydsaid:
"
DC isn't following up on this idea and leaving it only in issue #900.This shows that DC doesn't have confidence behind this idea and new direction...so why did they even start down this road?
"
Because odds are it was a story wrote in 2009 goyer frustrated with real life events or as the spark of the idea.Back then The curent admistration didnt help the iranian protesters.Their velvet revolution was seen posibly as to risky to suport.Or more aptly didnt fit the view of the admistration. Imho http://screenrant.com/superman-renounces-american-citizenship-benm-113080/ realy fits an makes sence for what they wrote.
All this makes one wonder if the older golden age superman from earth two realy is more popular over all why dc keeps trying to push the character to directions its base fans wouldnt apreciate?Its realy like the hollyweird comparison i keep bring up. Why change someting for a movie an lose the demografic of those who love the source material?Does hollywood realy thing when people say i read the book an i hated the movie will bring in more people?
Ah well quesitons for another time.Gona mellow out with Florence an the machines Lung delux cd an read that Showcase Unkown Soldier Vol 1.
"
I'm not referring to his personality per-se, I'm referring to the character and the concept of what he's about in general which has never changed(outside of alternate versions which don't count, I'm referring to Superman/Kal-El/Clark Kent). Naturally over time some writers will "slightly" alter his personality like example, the goofy clark kent as oppose to the more serious clark kent but both are successful in deception of his alter ego....Superman.
" By denouncing his citizenship he was effectively fighting against the possibility of any misinterpretation of him or his actions leading to any unjust consequences. I do agree that it would be beneficial in the storyline for Superman to more vocally advocate an ethic that is more global in character, but perhaps they are saving that for future storylines.. "This is another weak argument.
Since the issue is perception, what does it matter what Superman legally does when his actions still put him on U.S. soil? Let's say he denounces. Then what's to prevent them from STILL saying he's they're agent, STILL being perceived as one, and STILL being construed as such... "secret Muslim" anyone? How EXACTLY is denouncing any MORE effective than simply SPEAKING? As for the straw man, uh, that was IN THE STORY. THAT was what Superman was written as afraid of... not that he WAS a pawn of the government but that he was SEEN as a pawn and rather than SPEAKING to fight / prevent the perception (assuming he cares about perception to begin with) he makes a legal move that will do NOTHING to affect that perception amongst those who perceive him that way to begin with. The fact that you call it a straw man convinces me that people applauding the storyline didn't actually read it carefully for the reasons and execution and are just looking at the result.
His personality and values are the core of the concept of Superman. What I was trying to point to with the last comment was that the general concepts that are the basis of the Supermen of each age (their personality, values, how they behave in their historical context) are different from one another. The description of a Superman that would never denounce his US citizenship fits the profile of the Supermen of the golden and silver ages, who were often used a simplistic one dimensional propaganda device. The modern age Superman is both a really complex and deeply moral 3 dimensional person, who saw himself as being of Krypton, of the Earthly locality he lives among, and of the greater world community.
@Demas:
The reason I called you earlier comment a straw man is because instead of is because much like you are doing right now you are not engaging what I actually said. If you want to disagree with someone that is perfectly fine, but if you are going to participate in a conversation in which you want to argue why your particular view is the correct one, you need to address what opposing views actually say. If you just make up a false characterization of an opposing view that is easier to argue against, rather than engaging what the actual content of the opposing view is, you aren't actually participating in the conversation, despite the volume or size of your statements.
His core personality and character, yes will always be Superman and what he believes in which is "Truth, Justice and the American Way" not the "It's not enough anymore and I'll make it universal" even though it's always been universal....he's just quoted that and goes by that motto and belief due to the way he was raised, where he was raised and what Clark/Superman stands for...People act as if his original motto goes against "the world outside of America" and that's not the case, it's just supporting the fact that he's proud to be an American Hero or a Hero from America but with the mindset of saving the world despite where it is.
Denouncing his american citizenship does not help this case nor back up what he's about but goes against it, and that's not what Superman is about at all..
As far as personality, various writers can and have altered "Clark's" methods at times while hiding the fact that he's Superman, that's what I was saying. Superman wasn't just propaganda though, that's how the media or some people saw him but again, look where he was raised, WHERE he lives(in America, Smallville and Metropolis) outside of the FOS.....and where he landed which again was in America, Smallville Kansas and was raised there....by the Kents. Another reason why this arch was stupid is because the Kents would never be ok with that if they were still alive. It's just not the way he was raised....
I'd have to disagree with the current Superman caring "more so" on a globally level then before...since again he's been in several archs over time where he's had to save the Earth(not just America) but the Earth from harm, so I don't know why people think Superman didn't care about the entire planet until now...it's not like he was against every other place except America and/or went to enemies of America and burned them to the ground which he could very much do...
@kadeem said:
And yet you're just blowing smoke. Your entire protest is that you didn't say "citizenship = agency", except that is EXACTLY the threat you posited, only that the GOVERNMENT would present such argument to ears ready to hear it. I showed how that's absurd. Even better, you prove you're just blowing smoke by ignoring the substantive discussion about denouncement and moving on to semantic nitpicking about what is or isn't a strawman. Interesting how you didn't touch on how renouncing citizenship does absolutely nothing to prevent the government / construers from STILL claiming Superman is an agent (eg: "secret Muslim") and better or more than SPEAKING does, particularly when you want to pretend deflection is my issue."The reason I called you earlier comment a straw man is because instead of is because much like you are doing right now you are not engaging what I actually said. If you want to disagree with someone that is perfectly fine, but if you are going to participate in a conversation in which you want to argue why your particular view is the correct one, you need to address what opposing views actually say. If you just make up a false characterization of an opposing view that is easier to argue against, rather than engaging what the actual content of the opposing view is, you aren't actually participating in the conversation, despite the volume or size of your statements. "
Honestly when I read this panel I didn't know what to think:
Oh look, another dodge of the substantive discussion to talk about the semantics of "straw men." You said:" @Demas: You are setting up yet another straw man. I never said said that "citizenship = agency", that's just a straw man you set up in place of what I said. I didn't need to go into further detail about what you said because all you put forth was a straw man fallacy. When you introduce a logical statement into the conversation I will be more than happy to discuss your statements in much more depth. "
@kadeem said:
I said you said:" While Superman is percieved as being an US citizen serving US interest, the US government can misrepresent Superman's actions as reflecting their authority and misrepresent Supes as their national weapon as a sort of means to assert more influence and power internationally. [that is, agency, look up the word] ...
I said that the government could use the perception that he is a US agent in ways that Kal-El's moral sense wouldn't approve of. By denouncing his citizenship he was effectively fighting against the possibility of any misinterpretation of him or his actions leading to any unjust consequences.. "
@Demas said:
"that is EXACTLY the threat you posited, only that the GOVERNMENT would present such argument to ears ready to hear it. "Exposed. But keep up the smokescreen since your root argument is absurd.
Denouncing your citizenship doesn't make you any more able to counter people linking you to agency than simply speaking out does, and you've completely failed to show a difference except to say that denouncement does it and speaking doesn't. Which is absurd.
This sounds ridiculous. First off, I can't understand how Superman can have a citizenship of any kind. lol I can just imagine superman siting in a little room with other immigrants filling out his application. "Himmmm ... What should I write for my name ?" "Should I write Superman, Kal-el, or Clark Kent ? " "What should I write for place of origin ?" " Should I say Krypton, Smallville, or Metropolis ?" And all the other immigrants looking at him saying " What's Superman doing here ?" If he is a citizen, does he pay taxes ? Can he vote ? Can he be drafted into the military ? Can he be called for Jury duty ? lol That's just a hilarious idea to me.
Second, It's out of character for Superman to do that. Superman is the second most patriotic superhero next to Captain America. It also sounds like Superman is giving into threats. That's something else that superman would not do. This is just like the Spider-man One More Day storyline. Spider-man would not make a deal with the devil and Superman would not renounce his U.S. citizenship. Does it sound like an interesting concept ? Yes. Should it be done ? No. I like David S. Goyer. He is a great writer. But, this has me worried about Superman : Man of Steal. It seems that he does not know the character very well. I was also upset when in Superman:Returns they did not use the quote "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" because of political reasons. The whole idea seem to be a publicity stunt by DC. Superman sales must be very low.
Dessad: My lord Kal-el just renounced his American citizenship
Darkseid: What the hell is an American citizenship?
Brainiac: Why should i care?
Mongul:Yes i believe i have heard of that little spec of land.
Lex: Yes now i can trick these imbeciles in to making me president again.
He is the only character I have a problem with this happening too. I would be like Captain America renouncing his citizen ship to be Captain Planet (yes I went there).
They gave him his citizenship back.
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/luffycapri/news/?a=36606
You didn't prove anything. Now you are trying to change what you said. You were originally trying to set up a that i claimed that "citizenship = agency" as a straw man. If you actually look at my words and what they mean, I am clearly talking about the possibility of the government misrepresenting Superman and his actions as being an extension of US power, to enable the government to pursue agandas that he would not agree with. You just gave me evidence to feed my side of the argument. Now you are trying to present a new argument that " Denouncing your citizenship doesn't make you any more able to counter people linking you to agency than simply speaking out does, and you've completely failed to show a difference except to say that denouncement does it and speaking doesn't. Which is absurd" as if it was what you were trying to argue the entire time , when in fact you are now presenting this as a new argument, hoping that I wouldn't notice. If this is the point you are going to argue than its not an issue of rather or not Superman's denunciation of his citizenship was consistent with his characterization or not, but the issue is then if you agree with modern age Superman's principles and actions that followed, which is a completely different conversation." @kadeem said:
Oh look, another dodge of the substantive discussion to talk about the semantics of "straw men." You said:" @Demas: You are setting up yet another straw man. I never said said that "citizenship = agency", that's just a straw man you set up in place of what I said. I didn't need to go into further detail about what you said because all you put forth was a straw man fallacy. When you introduce a logical statement into the conversation I will be more than happy to discuss your statements in much more depth. "
@kadeem said:I said you said:" While Superman is percieved as being an US citizen serving US interest, the US government can misrepresent Superman's actions as reflecting their authority and misrepresent Supes as their national weapon as a sort of means to assert more influence and power internationally. [that is, agency, look up the word] ...
I said that the government could use the perception that he is a US agent in ways that Kal-El's moral sense wouldn't approve of. By denouncing his citizenship he was effectively fighting against the possibility of any misinterpretation of him or his actions leading to any unjust consequences.. "
@Demas said:"that is EXACTLY the threat you posited, only that the GOVERNMENT would present such argument to ears ready to hear it. "Exposed. But keep up the smokescreen since your root argument is absurd.Denouncing your citizenship doesn't make you any more able to counter people linking you to agency than simply speaking out does, and you've completely failed to show a difference except to say that denouncement does it and speaking doesn't. Which is absurd. "
" They gave him his citizenship back.Nice :) Thanks for that update
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/luffycapri/news/?a=36606 "
"
They gave him his citizenship back.
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/luffycapri/news/?a=36606
"
Hehe i was just gona post that ..
covered it a bit.
http://superman.bz/dc-backtracks-superman-renouncing-his-citizenship/
reprents the same thing realy.
http://comics-x-aminer.com/?p=2122
more to..
about this statment
"This short story is just that, it will not be followed up upon. Superman will remain as American as Apple pie." from dc...
http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000243864&tstart=0&start=30 says its offical to...
So um... weathers nice here in my neck of the woods. How about yours?Some yall might be oh i dont know hot under the collar over this..Just rember.. some of us tried to tell ya... we tried to warn ya it was a backup story...probly worte in 2009 about real world events..
But some had to add their personal political world veiw onto 9 pages..Which in the same issue had him holding the american flag..
Im sure certian real world events may have played into this as well.One thing that still stands i dont belive dc deserves the characters they have.
:)
Fine. He can be the world protector. He doesn't have to name any nation when he does photo ops and recites a motto, never really had to . . . I don't know if his press agent would have said he should. Just thought it was something he grew up with and said of his own free will. Now as for Clark, . . . you do have your papers? Clark! Darn it, never around when Supe's taking a stand, unless Bruce Wayne's in town.
...well his folks gave him the red white and blue i don't think we can classify a person by the stuff he/she wears.
" You were originally trying to set up a that i claimed that "citizenship = agency" as a straw man. "Nope. I said that "citizenship = agency" is the only downside presented IN STORY. You claiming denouncement prevents that because that's the ONLY way that denouncement preempts the government from claiming Superman is their agent in your flawed logic. You said it right there up in the quote.
@kadeem said:
""While Superman is percieved as being an US citizen serving US interest, the US government can misrepresent Superman's actions as reflecting their authority and misrepresent Supes as their national weapon as a sort of means to assert more influence and power internationally. [that is, agency, look up the word] ...I said that the government could use the perception that he is a US agent in ways that Kal-El's moral sense wouldn't approve of. By denouncing his citizenship he was effectively fighting against the possibility of any misinterpretation of him or his actions leading to any unjust consequences."
You are, ridiculously, trying to link citizenship with agency and saying that by denouncing citizenship, Superman can immunize himself from claims of agency- whether by the government or construers. This is absurd.
What I find interesting is that the people who're bitching about this have no idea what Superman was all about in the first place:
He was a pro-labor, leftist, anti-capitalist borderline socialist.
Superman used to be all about standing up against villains like corrupt slumlords and defending the rights of the proletariat despite "The Law".
It's not really all that surprising - Siegel & Shuster were a couple Jewish kids in the '30's - the height of the labor movement.
What I don't know is exactly how or when Superman transformed from a hero of the leftist labor-movement into a personification of the Status Quo, Leave It To Beaver family values, and jingoistic nationalism.
It's really interesting how polarizing the statement was. That's the odd thing about all Superheros, whose policy are they employing exactly? This idea that they can go around doing whatever they want without stepping on somebodies toes is far fetched. Even Obama has to tippy toe around the political minefield that surrounds every policy he tries to implement.
Of course it's fiction, but people in the real world are always nitpicking everything from Katrina, to the oil spill, to Libya, and even a clear victory like killing Bin Laden; with good reason of course. Checks and balances are needed to prevent people from doing things which are questionable. In comics the idea that superheroes can go around employing these world shaking policies without representing someone feels out of place. Superman always represented the worlds interest and the worlds interest used to be embodied in the American way, which is obviously subjective; but at least it gave you a sense of where he was coming from. But now, if he doesn't represent the American way, then whose way does he represent? Superman is typically said to represent hope so when he abandons his citizenship it's like saying he has lost faith in the American way. I hate to say it, but his actions are un-American because... assuming that Superman is a highly respected figure in the DC Universe... by abandoning his citizenship he is suggesting there is something wrong with the American way and coming from Superman that's a pretty big statement, that has pretty big implications. Like Obama always says it's one of the best systems of getting things done out there. It's better then some of the alternatives. Yes the american way isn't perfect, but what makes this system work is we can fix the flaws, fine tune it, and make it better over time.
The other problem with the statement is if he denounces his citizenship, does that mean he no longer sees himself as being equal to human beings? I mean he is superpowered, but part of his charm was his ability to see the value of basic everyday human existence. Instead of putting himself above the system, he seemingly worked with it. Not only as a superhero, but also through his attempt to make the world a better place by being a reporter through the news (another part of the american way). By not working with our everyday human" system he is suggesting that he is above it or that his way is better then it. He's better then the system that us lowly humans are forced to use.
I love Superman, but I think this is the wrong direction for his character.
I think Superman is over patriotic. He even wears the good old red, white and blue when he's out saving the day.
The people who are criticizing this are forgetting some very important aspects.
Instead of having a knee-jerk reaction, why don't you actually think through the implications of what this means?
No, that's false. First off, the term is expatriate, not expatriot. Second, it's not limited only to Americans. And third, it doesn't mean you renounce your citizenship. An expatriate is a person residing either temporarily or permanently in a foreign country. I'm an expatriate for purposes of work, yet I still retain American citizenship, I still have an American passport, I still vote in American elections (both local and federal), and I still file a US tax return.an um when one renouces their american citizen ship their not wanting to be american any more right?whatever the lame reson week sause story.So from that point on their not american in real life their refered to as expatriots or xpats for short.
I admit I didn't read th story. I don't think that's what people are thinking. It's what is implied. Truthfully, it's not that big a deal for me really as long as it doesn't pervasively effect his character, but for arguments sake, like I said before, as an icon for the DC universe it reflects badly on the US when a figure like Superman distances himself from the US. I understand the concept giving the US plausible deniability, which is a good argument; but what if one of the said actions conflicts with national interests or even UN policy?The people against this haven't read the story. They don't know the context of the story. All they know is that it's Superman renouncing his citizenship and so they automatically assume it's some commie Muslim terrorist plot to destroy Superman."
I've never considered him an 'America-protector' only. I haven't actually read his comics much but through other media I've always thought that he cares about world and human beings rather than just America. I'm sure he does love America more than other countries but he would save any one in trouble.
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