Why I hate starfire.

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#101 Posted by X9 (824 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, gosh, I know what the words pimp and slut mean and I really meant to use them.

Anyway I won't explain my points over and over again to you, cause it's clearly leading us to nowhere.

I still think she sucks, she's dumb and, hell yeah, promiscuous. And you should really be careful when saying I'm being hypocrite cause, afterall, I didn't use Jason, Roy or anyone else to compare with Starfire. I'm not even a fan of these characters, so it's not like I can put up with their "promiscuit" and not with Starfire's.

Try to read the Lobo part again and you'll see I'm not judging her based on what he did, but on what she DIND'T when he did what he did. And yes, he's a jerk, that's why you can't give him any space.

So, I guess we're done :)

I don't plan to waste any more time talking about...well, Starfire.

Last thing... she looks waay too weird in these pics XP

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#102 Posted by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio
@X9: Oh, gosh, I know what the words pimp and slut mean and I really meant to use them

Obvioiusly, you don't. A boyfriend is not a pimp, and someone who restrains themselves from acting violently isn't a slut. I believe that you just call a women you don't like degrading names, just like, in your example you, voicing what Jason "should have said" after Kori kissed him, you called her a stupid bitch.

And, again - NOT blowing someone up because they ripped your top of doesn't make her a slut. (Do yourself a favor, look up the word slut. Seriously.)

I still think she sucks, she's dumb and, hell yeah, promiscuous. And you should really be careful when saying I'm being hypocrite cause, afterall, I didn't use Jason, Roy or anyone else to compare with Starfire. I'm not even a fan of these characters, so it's not like I can put up with their "promiscuit" and not with Starfire's.

Your thoughts aren't based on knowledge about the character, though. So what you think about her is unimportant to anyone.

And I didn't use Jason's/Roy's sex life to compare it with Starfire's. I just think it's funny that you overlook their past in order to rant about Kory's.

I also think it's hilarious that you put quotation marks around "promisciut" when that's how YOU misspelled promiscuous in your ranting misogynistic post. Makes me LOL.

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#103 Posted by Protoon (104 posts) - - Show Bio


I should qualify by saying I'm none too knowledgable on the Nightwing/Starfire thing because I've never read any Teen Titans.

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#104 Posted by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

@Protoon: @Protoon said:


I should qualify by saying I'm none too knowledgable on the Nightwing/Starfire thing because I've never read any Teen Titans.

New Teen Titans/Tales of the Teen Titans/ New Titans. But I digress. You're excused.

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#105 Posted by Korii (3 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbra got what she deserved. Haha. She expects every man to wait for her? Haha, No.

Starfire wasn't doing anything bad. If Nightwing truly "loved" Barbra he wouldn't mess around with another girl who's 10 times better. Love Starfire. Nightwing & Starfire forever: plus they have a gorgeous daughter together.

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#107 Posted by RobinSt34742389 (8 posts) - - Show Bio

my god the massive hatred star receives from fans of this bitch barbara all because they hate the fact that star has always been dicks most sensical and longlasting relationship than babs ever will and they want to justify this boring retcon ship by talking to shit to her. lol you guys are so stupid and insecure. you really have to be this low just so you could feel better about your ship. some of your opinions towards her arent even based on facts and evidences but on your own feelings. lets see if that would make an old retconned relationship relevant , i wonder why most dc comics and shows points more toward and dick and kori though XD

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#108 Posted by deactivated-5ae6527167c26 (2058 posts) - - Show Bio

She's smoking hot soooo

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#109 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Starfire is one of those characters that a lot of people misunderstand.

They give too much of a sexual emphasis on her, and I think that it's because of her attire as a superhero.

She has been referred to as a wholesome version of a prostitute.

I have also seen a comment about her being a nympho.

Of course, there are the slut names too.

What I gathered from the comics that I read

She was designed to be an outerspace version of Red Sonja.

She's an alien warrior princess.

She was also a slave for 6 years, and she went through horrible physical and emotional pain.

She escaped from a slave ship and was recaptured, but the Teen Titans rescued her.

On her planet Tamaran, people are barely dressed.

Another thing...She's a solar-powered being.

The Sun gives her strength and power.

Her star-bolt power came from torturing experimentation by her slavemasters.

I think some people don't understand the character and just judge her by her appearance.

There is a lot more to her than what she's wearing.

She is actually very smart along with being strong,tough,brave,fierce,loyal, deep,emotional,sensitive,caring,compassionate.

Most of all, she is a survivor.

What didn't kill her made her stronger.

She has been shown to have an extreme resistance to physical pain and immense willpower.

She had a lot of aggression in her because of her past as a slave and her training as a warrior.

As a Tamaranian, she lives through her passions and emotions, and she helped Dick with those.

The Teen Titans cartoon doesn't touch on the traumatic,abusive past like the comics does.

Tales of the Teen Titans #4 is a comic issue about Kori/Starfire's past.

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#110 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio
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#111 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick and Kory were each other's love interests from 1980 to 1994.

Kory helped Dick with growth and maturity. They were opposites that complemented one another.

Their connection in the 1980s,1990s comics was profound and meaningful.

They were one of the most popular and iconic couples in DC at the time

Kory was quite the supportive,caring,and loyal girlfriend to Dick.

She opened him up.

She helped him take off his red tunic when he gave up being Robin.

Right before he became Nightwing, he was grateful for Kory standing by him while he almost alienated everybody and that he loved her for that.

Dick and Kory had intimacy, tenderness, sweetness, and romance in their relationship.

Kory can put her foot down with Dick. She told him what he needed to hear and not what he wanted to hear.

DC Comics give her this description:

A princess who became a slave. A slave who became a warrior. A warrior who became one of the world’s greatest super heroes.


Dick thought this about Kory:

"A life filled with such hardships would have reduced others to despair, but not you. You fought back, looking at life as a challenge.

You're teaching me a lot, Kory.

I spent my first eighteen years living with Batman, learning how to contain my feelings. Three years with Kory's changing all that."

Kory told Dick

"If you love someone on Tamaran, you live for them and they for you."

Kory took that to heart. As a Tamaranean, she lived through her passions and emotions.

Nobody has to take my word for it.

This can be confirmed

a lot of comic pictures showing that Dick and Kory's relationship was based on love and caring with Kory being very supportive of Dick which helped him change for the better and be his own man.



I was actually Dick/Barbara fan until I learned about Kory.

After reading many Teen Titan,Titan issues, I am totally a fan of Dick/Kory now.

I believe that Dick and Kory belong together, and I hope that they reunite in the future.

They are cute couple in the Teen Titan cartoon series.

They are a couple with great chemistry in the DC Animated Movies.

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#112 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@nightstar1 said:

@X9 said:

She asked to. He refused.

And it's just a matter of time before it happens.

Sorry, but to me she's just a slut :P

If you're writing about the scene in the most recent version of the Titans, then you're wrong.

They were already in a sexual relationship. She asked him if he was in love with her, and he said that he loved her but that he was no longer "in love" with her, so she left him.

Those weren't the words that were exchanged

Kory: Do you love me? In the way that means forever. In a way that we never have to find excuses.

Dick: No

Kory lives and experiences very deeply and far more intense than a human being, and so it would be natural for Dick to not feel as deeply and intense as her that he could not give her the answer that she wanted to hear

I just take it that Dick has denial about his own feelings for her. In the 1980s Teen Titan comics, he did deny about his romantic feelings to her in the past right before she started a relationship with Franklin who met her while she was doing model work. It wasn't until she was captured by Komand'r and beaten almost to death that he realized that he loved her. Another dangerous, near death experience could awaken the realization of his romantic feelings for her.

In the Starfire comic, Dick and Kory also shared a mutual passionate lip-lock kiss in the Starfire comic. That wasn't a kiss between friends. That was a kiss between lovers.

I actually liked his goodbye kiss to her on the cheek. It was done in a sweet and caring way. Obviously, she means a lot to him.

I just don't think Dick's connection with Barbara is just as profound and meaningful as the connection he had with Kory in the 1980s,1990s.

Barbara didn't help Dick with growth and maturity that Kory did. Kory and Dick are opposites that complement one another. They taught each other and learned from each other.

It's also possible to use the excuse that he has fear of being with an alien woman who challenges his values as well as is a threat to his secret identity.

He could think Barbara and any other human woman is safer and practical choice.

He's going with his only his head and not going with also his heart.

When they broke up back in 1993, it wasn't out of not loving each other any more. It was the result of evil Trigon influenced Raven crashing their wedding and killing the minister right before he pronounced them husband and wife and drove Kory crazy to the point that she did a spiritual initiation that led to an awakening that she became a shaman. She forgot her old life. When she regained her memories, she felt that Earth was no longer her home.

Of course, all this crap was the result of changing the happy wedding plans for Dick and Kory after Batman editorial office took back Dick from the Teen Titans editorial office.

The way that their relationship ended in 1993 could be something that blocks Dick from following his heart. He doesn't want to experience that pain when she left Earth.

He was actually sad when she left him a note telling her that she was leaving Earth when they working together in the Justice League shortly before she ended up in R.E.B.E.L.S

If I was a writer that bring them back together, I use those aforementioned events to factor into what's blocking Dick from getting together with Kory. I'd have Kory tell Dick how she really feels about him and all the pain that she's experienced from his not loving her. She angrily lashes out at Dick who reciprocates in kind and brings up the past events which leads to Kory walking out. For some time, they act like they cannot stand each other, but they are secretly just feeling hurt. They desire each other, but they don't want to admit it. It takes a dangerous mission that leads to life threatening event that makes them realize that they love and need each other.

Dick and Kory are a couple in the DC Animated Movie Universe. They look great together. They have such great chemistry in Teen Titans: Judas Contract.

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#114 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to address misconceptions about the Dick/Kory fanbase .

I see people assuming that the Dick/Kory ship is very popular because of the Teen Titans cartoon show that first aired on July 2003. That show is based on Marv Wolfman run, The New Teen Titans,Tales of the Teen Titans,and the Titans comics from 1980 to 1994 which was the period when Dick Grayson (aka Robin,Nightwing) and Koriand'r (Starfire) were each other's love interest for fourteen straight years.

The Marv Wolfman run, New Teen Titans was one of the best-selling and popular comic series that even rivaled X-Men. In 1982, Marvel and DC Present featuring The Uncanny X-Men and The New Teen Titans was released. Dick became one of the most popular comic book characters during his time in the Marv Wolfman run, The New Teen Titans.

Dick/Kory was very popular among comic book readers and was one of the most iconic comic book couples during the 1980s and 1990s. My favorite comic book couple of all time is Peter Parker (Spider-Man)/Mary Jane Watson, and they're one of the most popular and iconic couples in comic book history. There was a time that Mary Jane was out of comics when Dick and Kory were each other's love interests and was not in a relationship with Peter when Dick and Kory were in a relationship. Mary Jane turned down Peter's marriage proposal and left him in 1977. During the time that Mary Jane was out of comics, Peter had other love interests including especially Felicia Hardy (Black Cat) who was his relationship partner when Mary Jane was brought back in comics in The Amazing Spider-Man, Volume 1, issue #238 published March 1982. It was 1982 when Dick and Kory became an official couple in The New Teen Titans, Volume 1 issue #26 that was published on December 1982. In that issue, Dick revealed to Kory that he does have romantic love feelings for her after the aftermath of Teen Titans' attempt to rescue Kory from Kory's sister Komand'r (Blackfire) and the Citadel who had made Kory a slave for 5 or 6 years , and they were depicted as going out on dates for a few weeks with their first onpanel date being Dick and Kory going to a Broadway show. Peter broke up with Felicia in Peter Parker,The Spectacular Spider-Man Volume 1, #100 published March 1985. Therefore, Peter was still in a relationship with Felicia even after Mary Jane came back into his life. In Spider-Man Versus Wolverine published on February 1987, Peter and Mary Jane realized that they were deceiving themselves about the depth of their feelings for each other and that they were very much in love.

Peter and Mary Jane didn't get back into a relationship until they got married in The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21 published September 1987. They got married and became one of the greatest comic book couples of all time with a marriage that lasted 20 years.

Just one month before that in August 1987, The New Teen Titans Volume 2, Issue #34 had Dick and Kory resuming their relationship after Dick broke up with her because he didn't want to be with her while she was in a marriage of state with Prince Karras to prevent a civil war that would save millions of lives on Tamaran in The New Teen Titans Volume 2, Issue #18 published on March 1986. Dick and Kory got back together after 17 months apart even though they were still in love with each other, and the issue #34 with a very happy Kory flying herself and Dick high into the night time sky ending with the very last page with them in an embrace and romantic kiss against the background of starlit sky. I believe that it is one of the most iconic romantic scenes in comics, and so I had to show it to you. I am convinced that Dick/Kory was not far behind Peter/Mary Jane in popularity at the time. I came to the conclusion that Dick/Kory was to DC that Peter/Mary Jane was to Marvel at the time.


Since they got back together, their relationship got way better to the point that there was a strong trust and understanding of each other. Dick told Kory his constant dreams of making love to Raven, and Kory listened without any jealousy and gives input about love and feelings from her Tamaranean perspective that ends up impressing Dick. Kory talks to Raven for Dick, and she helps Raven understand that her powers are influencing Dick and that she really isn't in love with Dick. Raven realizes that she's speaking the truth and feels ashamed and wants to leave, but Kory comforts and befriends her. The two became very good friends after that. Kory and Raven tricked Dick with Raven kissing Dick like she was in love with him. After they revealed the trick, Dick tells Kory that he moved his stuff in her apartment. Kory is so happy that she picks him up and she flies high into sky as they hug and kiss. All this takes place in The New Teen Titans, Volume 2 issue #39.

In The New Titans issue #71 published in November 1990, Dick thinks about how much he loves her and how she helped him with his emotions. He even tells a story about space princess Kory to a little girl who was on a ledge. In the story, he described Kory as beautiful on the outside but also beautiful on the inside and that she believed in truth and fairness for everyone. While Dick is telling this story about Kory, Kory got tricked by somebody pretending to need help, drugged,beaten up,and taken prisoner. The next comic issue was the beginning Titan Hunt story. The Conclusion of the Titan Hunt in The New Titans issue #84 had Dick reunited with Kory and other captured Titans in Azarath, but Raven is completely taken over by Trigon. Dick and Kory's relationship goes downhill with Kory still being affected by what happened to her in Azarath and Mirage disguising herself as Kory and having sex with Dick. After the events with Mirage, Kory feels insecure about Dick's love for her even though Dick is still in love with her. Still feeling hurt and hating he didn't know he had been with Mirage and she can recognize everything about him, she breaks up with him in New Titans issue #97. In the New Titans issue #99, Dick desperately tries to get back together with Kory and he even goes to a club dressed up as Nightwing and tries to talk to her when Kory was with a friend watching a show. Kory doesn't want to talk to him until later. Nightwing comes off a bit possessive, and her friend intervenes. Nightwing gets violent with him. Kory blasts him with a starbolt. Not long after, he shows up at Kory's apartment at 3:30 AM and tells Kory that he loves and needs her,admitted that he was thinking with his hormones and not his head in regards to not being able to know that he was having sex with somebody disguised as Kory, saying his morality makes him a one-woman man and that she's that woman and will always be, and asking her to marry him leading to the last page of Dick and Kory in each other's arms kissing. Obviously, Kory accepted Dick's marriage proposal.

You can imagine that a lot of Teen Titans comic fans were very disappointed when Dick and Kory had a wedding in the August 1993 published The New Titans issue #100 only for it to end with Trigon-possessed Raven crashing it and implanting Kory with Trigon's demon seed which all led to Kory breaking up with Dick and returning to Tamaran. In New Titans issue #114 published in September 1994, Dick was waiting for Kory to come see and talk with him but she never showed up as she didn't want Dick confusing things after thinking her life is no longer on Earth even though she still loves him more than he knows. The whole thing reminds me of Marvel's former Editor in Chief Joe Quesada's written One Moment in Time story with Mary Jane leaves Peter which was supposed to explain what happened after One More Day when Peter and Mary Jane's marriage was undone by Mephisto and was apart for 11 years. Mary Jane was written to be weak and that she couldn't deal with Peter Parker being Spider-Man any more. I was afraid that Joe Quesada was going to come up with a retcon that Mary Jane cheated on Peter with her ex-boyfriend Bruce the night before Peter and Mary Jane got married. A few months ago, Nick Spencer brought Peter and Mary Jane back together as a couple in The Amazing Spider-Man issue #1. As a fan that created a facebook page for Peter and Mary Jane's relationship, that makes me very happy. During the period that Dick and Kory's relationship turned into a disaster in August 1993 and they completely ended in September 1994, Peter and Mary Jane had their own problems. Peter had sworn to Mary Jane that he would give up being Spider-Man for awhile and he went back on his word, and Mary Jane was upset about that. Peter was acting all neurotic with his sense of responsibility as Spider-Man, and Mary Jane was stressing out over Peter being Spider-Man and had a cigarette addiction. Her acting career was falling apart. In a comic book page, Mary Jane thinks that Peter didn't come home last night, and she thinks that most wives worry about infidelity but Peter is Spider-Man - he could be dead. Liz kicked Peter and Mary Jane out of their loft. Peter's parents came back into his life, but they end up being androids. After he loses his fake parents, Peter is driven with rage and vengeance and pushes Mary Jane away. May ends up sick in the hospital, and Peter goes nuts that he webs himself up in a cocoon so he cannot be reached. This was heading up into the Death of Aunt May in Amazing Spider-Man issue #400 and the infamous Clone Saga that so many Spider-Man fans hated including me. The only things that I liked about it was Ben Reilly and Mary Jane demonstrating great loyalty and faithfulness as Peter's wife even when Peter was believed to be the clone to the point that she was willing to let Peter kill her when he was under the Jackal's programming which she helped him break. I read those comics when I was in my 20s in the 1990s. Like Dick and Kory, Peter and Mary Jane had their ups and downs with serious problems. There are no comic couples that have perfect relationships. Comic books have quite the soapy element to them. As a person that loves to watch soap operas on television, I actually enjoy that. I just don't care for the love triangles and my favorite characters killed off. When Mary Jane was killed off in an airplane accident in 1999, I couldn't bear reading Spider-Man comics any more.

The disastrous wedding and the breaking up of Dick and Kory's relationship were the results of Batman office taking Dick back from the Titan's office and not having any control of Kory. Before Dick was taken from the Titans office, there was an original plan of a Nightwing mini-series that establishes Dick's greatness among the superhero community. It involved an alien invasion of Earth that included kidnapping Kory. Nightwing would go rescue Kory,he proposes marriage with her accepting,and they get a happy wedding. The Mirage stuff,Kory breaking up with Dick,and Dick's desperate marriage proposal seem to be events that were created to lead up to the disastrous wedding and their breakup. Seeing that Batman office has been degrading Kory into Dick's lustful fling while pushing Barbara as Dick's one true love, I am glad that Batman office doesn't have control of Kory. She may have gotten the Jean Grey treatment. Jean Grey was killed off and stayed dead for a long time in order to push a Scott Summers (Cyclops)/Emma Frost relationship which has resulted in a strong split of Scott relationship fans between Scott/Jean and Scott/Emma just like there is a strong split of Dick relationship fans between Dick/Kory and Dick/Barbara (Batgirl,Oracle).

Dick and Kory did have interactions in the comics after they were broken up. Their relationship was acknowledged in some way or another. In 1996, There was an Else-world comic book mini-series, Kingdom Come that showed Dick and Kory had a daughter named Mar'i who became the superhero, Nightstar. In February 1999, Kingdom Come was followed by the sequel, The Kingdom that had Nightstar in it. In that same month, The Kingdom: Nightstar was released. In the 1999 JLA Titans three issue comic miniseries published from December 1998 to February 1999, Dick and Kory met again for the first time since Kory left Dick to go back to Tamaran when she felt that she no longer belonged on Earth after the attack by Trigon-possessed Raven at their wedding. They re-connected as friends that care about each other.

They were on the same team in The Titans comic book series that was first published on March 1999. Kory ended up leaving the Team to defend her Tamaranean people. She and Dick said goodbye to each other ,and that included them telling each other that they love each other.

When the Teen Titans cartoon first aired on July 2003, The Teen Titans, Volume 3 comic series came out the same month. Kory was a mentor to the Teen Titans in the comic book. She and Dick had interactions in the comic. There was also a comic book series, The Outsiders comic book series that was first released on August 2003. Dick and Kory were fellow members on the Outsiders team, and they had sex in that comic book series that was written by Judd Winick. He was also the writer of the Titan series first published on June 2008 that had Dick and Kory have sex with each other while under the influence of Trigon's child, Lust and then followed by a swimming pool conversation with Kory asking Dick if he loves her in a forever way that they don't need to find excuses with Dick responding with "No." This was after the Teen Titan cartoon show stopped airing. I wondered if this was an attempt to put a deep dagger into the hearts of Dick/Kory fans.

Dick and Kory didn't have any lustful sex outside of love under any other writers. Judd Winick is the same writer that had Selina Kyle (Catwoman) and Bruce Wayne (Batman) have sex on a roof top with their costumes on and without Catwoman knowing Batman's secret identity in the New52 Catwoman comic issues #1 and 2. He was degrading their love into lust. Of course, a lot of Catwoman and Batman fans were upset about the sex because they felt that both were totally out of character as individuals. I was one of them.

Dick and Kory had interactions all the way up to the Teen Titans cartoon series and always had a big fan base that were given ship teases. I definitely wouldn't limit the fan base just to people that grew up watching the Teen Titans cartoons from 2003 to 2007. I am definitely not one of them. I am not even one of the fans that became a fan during the time that they were each other's love interest from 1980 to 1994. I didn't read Teen Titans comics at the time.

I was a Dick/Barbara fan until less than a month ago. I became a Dick/Barbara fan in the late 90s because of the Batman: Animated series. My first exposure to Barbara Gordon/Batgirl was in the New Adventures of Batman and Robin cartoon show in the 1970s when I was a little kid. I am almost 47 years old. The only being that was shown to have a crush on Batgirl in that 1970s Batman/Robin cartoon show was Bat-Mite. I also watched the 1960s Batman TV show and Batman/Robin cartoon series. In the former, there was no romantic interaction between Dick (played by Dick Ward) and Barbara (Yvonne Craig). Barbara was a bit older than Dick in all the shows that I watched before Batman: The Animated series. I was surprised to see a Batgirl and Robin being around the same age, know each other's secret identity and being love interests with each other. I actually liked it. I was a Dick/Barbara fan to the point that I voted for Batgirl - Barbara instead of Koriand'r - Starfire without knowing any comic book history about Kory in a Dick Grayson's True Love poll in CBR's Batman forum that was created. After reading the comics about Kory and her history with Dick, I now regret my vote and wish that I had voted for Kory instead of Barbara.

I became a Dick/Kory fan and now prefer Dick with Kory instead of Barbara less than a month ago after watching Teen Titans: Judas Contract and reading many of the New Teen Titans, Tales of the Teen Titans, and Titans comics from 1980s to 1990s. I have read all of them now. That's how much that I enjoyed reading the New Teen Titans including especially Dick and Kory's romantic relationship and Kory and Donna's sisterly friendship. My favorite Titan of all is now Kory. I actually enjoyed the Dick/Kory romantic relationship because of Kory more than Dick. I really like Kory's character as the alien warrior princess that went through 5 or 6 years of slavery and still has a big heart and becomes a superhero with a motivation to save others from the great emotional and physical pain that she went through as a slave. The Teen Titans cartoon doesn't really touch on any of that, and I wasn't really a fan of that cartoon because of how the Teen Titans were presented more as comedy and with ridiculous Looney Toon- like scenes. They didn't live with civilian identities nor even called each other by their real names. They weren't presented in a serious way like the animated universe of the Batman: Animated Series. I felt like I was too old to be watching those cartoons even though I like cartoons as an adult that is now almost 47 years old. Therefore, I definitely did not become a Teen Titan and Dick/Kory fan because of the Teen Titan cartoons. However, I do understand that the Teen Titan cartoon series helped increase the popularity and iconic status of Dick/Kory which they always had. Robin and Starfire do look cute together in the cartoon series. I am grateful for the cartoon series after recently becoming a Dick/Kory fan. I really liked how Dick and Kory's relationship was presented in Teen Titans: Judas Contract. They had great chemistry with each other, and I would like to see more of their relationship in more DC animated movies that includes a happy wedding that was originally planned for them in the comics.

As for the new upcoming, Titans show

UGH!!!!! (face slap to the forehead and shaking head side ways)

but going to watch it and wish it success

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#115 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

There is comic page where it shows what made Dick fall in love with Kory:

It wasn't Starfire's beauty that made me fall in love with her.....

It was her freedom!

I mean the freedom to feel at home with even her strongest emotions..

The one kind of freedom that Batman wouldn't allow.

That's what I was longing for--

And that's what Kory slowly taught me to embrace!

Their relationship and love was developed slowly and gradually 2 years in the Wolfman run, New Teen Titans. It took Kory getting kidnapped by Komand'r and the Gordanians and taken to the Citadel and her looking like she was dead after being beaten and tortured for Dick to admit his romantic love feelings for Kory and they got into a relationship soon after that.

No Caption Provided

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#116 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing Mini Series Plans 1991

Posted by on Feb 4, 2012 in Library, Titans Hunt Era: Archives (1991-1995) | Comments Offon Nightwing Mini Series Plans 1991

Nightwing Mini Series Plans 1991

There was a planned NIGHTWING mini-series planned as far back as 1991; Originally, it was going to be done by Art Thibert. There was even a promo-poster for it in TITANS $ELLOUT SPECIAL. It eventually was scrapped and Nightwing later had a mini series by Dennis O’Neil and Greg Land in 1995.

The Plot: Art Thibert on the Nightwing Mini-Series

I asked Art Thibert about the aborted Nightwing mini-series at the 4th Annual New York International Sci-Fi & Fantasy Creators Convention in 2003. He told me the whole overview.

As the mini-series opened, Starfire confronted Nightwing about ‘where their relationship was heading’. They had been dating for a few years and reached the point in their relationship where it had to take the next big step. Before any decisions were made, an alien invasion threatened the earth, taking Starfire hostage. Nightwing investigated and started formulating a plan to stop the invasion and rescue Starfire.

Meanwhile, the other heroes in the DC Universe learned of the alien threat and mounted a counter-offense. But Batman stopped them from taking any action when he realized Nightwing already had the situation accessed and was confident his former sidekick could handle it on his own.

Nightwing is able to reach the aliens and stop the invasion – as well as rescue Starfire. The mini-series would end with Nightwing cradling Starfire in his arms, emerging from the alien stronghold. A crowd of DC heroes would part to watch Nightwing emerge with Starfire in his arms, having defeated the alien threat. Now reunited with Kory, Nightwing proposes marriage and she accepts.

The mini was geared to establish Nightwing’s ‘coming of age’ as a major, competant hero in the DC Universe. Art Thibert said Marv Wolfman read the overview to the mini-series and approved it. Unfortunately, there was a major editorial shift and Thibert was offered a very lucrative offer from MARVEL to do CABLE. With NIGHTWING in doubt, Thibert opted to take the CABLE assignment, much to the loss of Titans fans.

Wizard Interview:

Art Thibert on the Nightwing Mini-Series

Art Thibert: I’ve never pledged my allegiance to a company, but to a person or an editor – someone I liked or felt comfortable with. Mike Carlin, the Superman editor, is a person I’ve always looked up to, and he did a lot for me in my early career. That’s why I agreed to stay on the Superman books, even if it’s only covers. I really like Bob Harras; I think he does a tremendous job. I really like Jonathan Peterson at DC, with whom I’ve had a long-lasting relationship – even though I’ve never had anything come out from his office. That’s why I’m doing Nightwing for him, coming out in December.

Wizard: As long as you brought it up, is Nightwing still in process?

Art Thibert:It’s still in process, now; after I finish X-Men #13, then Pamela Winesette, who is co-writing with me, and I will be starting on it full time. We already have the basic plot break-down done for the four issues; next I’ll start penciling, then we’ll start scripting together.

Wizard: This is your first real writing assignment?

Art Thibert: Yeah – I get back into pencilling – and somebody I’m writing, too! Am I a nut or what?

Wizard: Depends on how good you think you are.

Art Thibert: We’ll see.

Wizard: You’re tying into a line of books that have always been viewed as pretty writer-driven. Mary Wolfman has been the motivating force on the Titans material for so long.

Art Thibert: He still is. At the beginning, I was a little skeptical, because what Pam and I were proposing was a plan to really shake up the character of Nightwing. At one point, I went out to lunch with Marv, to get his OK and his blessing. He was all for it; he was really excited about it. I hope we live up to the tradition.

Wizard: What draws you to Nightwing?

Art Thibert: It was a major challenge. Jonathan said he had an idea to launch his whole Titans invasion, and asked if I’d be interested in Nightwing. I said I’d get back to him, because I had to figure out if I had any affection for him and what I could bring to him. As I talked to Pam about it, we started coming up with ideas; it was amazing how we started going nuts with plans for a character I thought I had no thoughts about. So I told Jonathan I’d do it if Pam and I could write it.

He wasn’t sure and asked us to send in a sample script and he thought it was great. It was official this time last year, so it’s been a year in the making. We got carte blanche to mess with the character – new costumes for both him and Starfire. Basically, we want to redefine Nightwing for the ‘90s. Bring him out of the “disco Elvis” look, at Pam calls it. We’ll give him some high-tech equipment, things like that.

Wizard: With the high profile you’ll get from the X-Men and then the Nightwing project, how do you envision your future?

Art Thibert: Marvel has offered me the ongoing Cable series, to start in the summer of ‘93, scripted by Fabian Nicieza. That gives us time to get some material in drawer, so to speak.

Wizard: Do you ever see yourself in the same position as the Image founders were when they made the jump.?

Art Thibert: It’s hard to say. For me, if I’m happy with what I’m doing, that’s what counts. The Nightwing series is a labor of love and I have an affection for Cable. If it works out that I get to that level and the readers like what I’m doing, it could happen. I’m just doing it for a kick right now. I don’t think of it in those terms.

Editor Jonathan Peterson on the Nightwing Mini-Series:

TTC: Were the creators lined up or did you seek them out?

JP: I basically called in favors. I called up friends, and one of the people I called was Art Thibert. I met Art when he first came to New York, [when he was] first breaking into comics. In fact, one of his earliest pencil jobs was for Barbara Kesel back when she was editing both New Teen Titans and Titans Spotlight, if you remember that title. Art drew an issue centering on Aqualad. In the case of Art, I really wanted him to be on “my team,” so to speak.

Here is – or I should say “was” – my comic editorial philosophy. I say “was” since now I’m working in Hollywood towards other goals these days. But basically, when I was editing, my core belief was 1) what I said before. Have fun. If you have fun it’ll show in the books, and that’s good. 2) To have fun… work with people you like. I’d rather work with a lesser talent that I can get along with and try to editorially shape or groom than to work with a “big name” comic star who’s such a headache, you hate going into the office.

Art was doing more stuff for Marvel, but he started at DC, so I called him up to say, “What would get you back to DC?” and I knew he was a big Batman fan, so I dangled the idea of Nightwing as part of that. I said to Art, “I have an idea. We’ve given Deathstroke his own book, and now I want Nightwing to get the next spin-off.” Well, Art loved the idea and asked if he and his wife Pamela, who wanted to write and work with Art, could have the book, and I said, “Dude! Why do you think I’m calling you!” and he said, “Oh man, count me in! Is this gonna be cool with Marv though? I hear he’s pretty protective about the characters.” I said “Well, he’s really having fun these days. He’s a real team player. And no, I haven’t told him yet, but I will now!” [laughs]

So I sat down with Art, and we discussed what we would do. Looking at my master game plan, I basically told Art that I wanted to push Dick and Kory along, that it would be his job to do that, in an initial miniseries. Art went off to talk to Pamela, and came back and said “How far can we push them?” I said “How do you mean?” and it was Art and Pamela who then said “Well, can we marry them, so the end of our trial mini has some real weight?” And I just lit up over that. I said “Yes! That’s it. That’s what we need to do. Go all out! Good plan!”


TTC: So you tossed out these ideas and weaved them together, knowing the endpoint was Deathstroke killing Jericho. A bit of reverse plotting?

JP: We actually even knew one step further. We were actually ultimately building to New Titans #100, which was two steps beyond. Phase One was “Titans Hunt.” We kill Jericho, get a real Wildebeest and some other new characters like Pantha. Phase Two is dealing with the idea [that] they are mature. Let’s make the New Titans kick-ass adults. That was when I turned to Art as the lynchpin, to do a Nightwing book. As part of that, I wanted to push the Dick and Kory romance along. I thought that had gotten too stale. I mean, it was just out there, but not really going anywhere. So to me, it was like telling Nightwing and Kory, “Crap or get off the pot.” [laughs] We wanted the endpoint to be that Nightwing would actually marry Starfire in New Titans # 100, because we could do that. There was a Robin in Batman, so it didn’t matter. I thought it would be like marrying Reed and Sue in Fantastic Four. That was a momentous occasion, so let’s build to it.

So I turned to Art. I wanted him to do a Nightwing six issue mini-series right around New Titans # 93. It’ll ship with New Titans up until New Titans # 99, at which point Art could have Nightwing proposing to Starfire in the last issue, and then issue # 100 would be the wedding issue. That was endpoint two.

Then there was phase three. I wanted to get the Teen Titans back, so I explained my whacked out idea. I really wanted Robin, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, Changeling, Raven, Starfire and Cyborg back to what they were originally, so I wanted to do an alternate dimension or timeline, and I turned to Kevin and said “You get to launch an all-new Titans book and design them from the ground up.” Not only that, but this alternate universe would have an alternate young Robin, and alternate young Starfire and all the rest. The plan for Team Titans was a secret one. With the first Team Titans Annual, or at the end of the first 12 issues, I told Kevin he would then be relaunching the Teen Titans with alternate versions of the core-seven members.

[from The Titans Companion, 2005]


Avatar image for glaucus
#117 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@buns134 said:
Dicks Van Halen shirt
Dicks Van Halen shirt
Wasn't this on The Wedding Singer?

That comic page is from a recton in Nightwing, Volume 2, Annual 2 which was published in 2007.

Dick and Kory were each other's love interests from 1980 to 1994.

Therefore, the retcon annual was published 13 years after Dick/Kory was broken up.

Dick and Barbara never shown any interest in each other when Dick and Kory were each other's love interests during that period.

There were no comic pages during that period of Barbara going to Dick apartment with Kory answering the door. Barbara and Kory never met each other during that period. That's not even Kory's demeanor and attitude. She wouldn't lied to Dick about Barbara. She's honest with matters of the heart.

There were no comic pages during that period of Dick sleeping with Barbara the night before his wedding with Kory which was shown in that 2007 retcon annual.

That retcon was done to elevate Dick/Barbara at the expense of degrading Dick/Kory.

It made all three look bad though.

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