Why Dick Grayson and Starfire look better together.

Avatar image for wonderbea
Posted by wonderbea (52 posts) - - Show Bio

Needless to say, I've always loved the Starfire and Dick tandem since I was a child, and even if there's a lot of heat going on about Babs being his potential someone, I would really beg to differ. Some would say that this topic should be a closed deal. Why? Lets check the facts:  

  1. Dick has mentioned to have his longest running relationship with Starfire, wherein it came to a point where both of them lived together (exclusively)
  2. In Kingdom Come, they have a daughter, Nightstar (who I think will be just as popular as her mother since she's the girl of Damian Wayne)
  3. Starfire was his first "official" girlfriend. Dick may have lost his v-card to Liu, and had a big crush on Babs, but both never sealed the deal.
So, heres the point I want to drive at: DICK IS AT HIS BEST WITH KORY. Why? Because her has an aura about him that any woman would be possessive and scared about to lose to.  He's Bruce Wayne tweaked and sexed up tenfold and no one else can match that up than the golden Tamaran. The dynamics of this couple is off the charts! I love Babs as much as any Batgirl fan, but Dick needs someone more dynamic, someone who can keep his hands full, someone like Kory...  
 
Which leads me to the fact that I'm actually getting anxious with the relaunching of DC this coming September for fear that they may abolish the Starfire-Nightwing continuity. Last June 6, DC announced that Starfire will be part of an anti-hero team (a term which I don't really understand), with Jason Todd and Roy Harper. I don't know if theres going to be any romance, but knowing Starfire, there definitely might be. I'm quite anxious and excited with what they have in store for Kory's interesting love life. Although, I'm still pushing for Dick, Jason could strike as a close second if they ever consider it. 
 
What do you guys think?
Avatar image for mr_q
#1 Posted by Mr.Q (1054 posts) - - Show Bio
I... will agree. and not to worry you but in the new reboot Babs is Batgirl again so things don't look too good.
Avatar image for mercy_
#2 Posted by Mercy_ (94916 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't agree at all.

Avatar image for fodigg
#3 Posted by fodigg (6244 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd prefer it if they give him a new love interest honestly. None of his old flames seemed a great fit.

Avatar image for kzr
#4 Posted by KZR (504 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:  What you said.
Avatar image for mr_q
#5 Posted by Mr.Q (1054 posts) - - Show Bio
.... where did everyone come from so suddenly?
Avatar image for thecrowbar
#6 Posted by TheCrowbar (4397 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Jason/Starfire would be amazing. They're both so very damaged.

Avatar image for princesssolaria
#7 Posted by PrincessSolaria (233 posts) - - Show Bio

I totally agree with you, I think Dick and Kori were doing a good couple , but I honestly am not a fan of Barbara. With the reboot is going to do well I can not wait to see how it will unfold team the Outlaws.

Avatar image for cattlebattle
#8 Posted by cattlebattle (17681 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick and Barbara always

Avatar image for doordoor123
#9 Posted by doordoor123 (3817 posts) - - Show Bio

I hated that he broke up with Starfire. It was a horrible break up. It didnt even seem like a break up. And then a couple months later she sleeps with Captain Comet.  
Shes only allowed to be a slut with Dick.  
Barbara and Dick never worked for me. Barbara just doesnt fit with Dick. I liked her better with Ted.
Avatar image for primmaster64
#10 Posted by Primmaster64 (21668 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason huh? Why?

Avatar image for mutant_god
#11 Posted by Mutant God (3957 posts) - - Show Bio

whos Ted
Avatar image for samimista
#12 Posted by Samimista (22297 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mutant God said:
whos Ted
Ted Kord aka Blue Beetle
Avatar image for mercy_
#13 Posted by Mercy_ (94916 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar said:
I think Jason/Starfire would be amazing. They're both so very damaged.
@cattlebattle said:
Dick and Barbara always
This :)
Avatar image for feliciano2040
#14 Posted by Feliciano2040 (665 posts) - - Show Bio
@doordoor123 said:
Barbara and Dick never worked for me. Barbara just doesnt fit with Dick. I liked her better with Ted.
 This.
Avatar image for mysticariadne
#15 Posted by mysticariadne (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Red Hood is awesome and thank goodness that they unlabotomized Starfire there so she's slowly but surely becoming a character with substance. I'm happy about the last Red Hood issue because it established Starfire's relationship with Dick AND the surprising fact that as much as Jason insinuated it with Roy, he really didn't sleep with Starfire. In fact, Jason showed a lot of respect for Starfire and didn't see her as a bimbo (although admittedly he knew how hot Starfire was). So I can't wait to see how Dick and Starfire will cross paths. We'll see what happens next :)

Avatar image for x9
#16 Posted by X9 (824 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sure if that argument that Dick and Kori will have a daugther and bla, bla, bla can actually be used due to the fact that it happened in an ALTERNATIVE FUTURE, which seems to have been delated in the New 52. About that kid being Damian's girl, I can only have one comment: it'd be as unsightly and random as the relationship Kori had with Dick.

Thing is: they simply don't work out. Before the New 52, even when they were going to get married it didn't work. Not because the priest was killed (as many fans try to argue), but because Dick was having sex with another woman in his wedding eve! Than, when she asked him if he really loved her, he answered "no". Everytime Dick is with Barbara (for example) something happens, you see him showing feelings for her. Not the same with Starfire. In fact, it's just the opposite. Everytime they see each other something happens that says they really shouldn't be together.

I think the writters were trying new pairings when they came out with their romance. It didn't really pleased. They don't seem interested in approaching them again, as a couple. Come on, why would they relauch the stories to write about one that's failed so many times! It doesn't make sense!

As I'm not crazy for Starfire character (not deep enough for me), I don't really especulate with whom she's gonna be in the end. Her relationship with Jason is nice, but I'm not sure if it'll go much further. But I'm sure of one thing: she doesn't belong with Dick Grayson. Accept that, pleaase ¬¬

Avatar image for glaucus
#18 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@x9 said:

I'm not sure if that argument that Dick and Kori will have a daugther and bla, bla, bla can actually be used due to the fact that it happened in an ALTERNATIVE FUTURE, which seems to have been delated in the New 52. About that kid being Damian's girl, I can only have one comment: it'd be as unsightly and random as the relationship Kori had with Dick.

Thing is: they simply don't work out. Before the New 52, even when they were going to get married it didn't work. Not because the priest was killed (as many fans try to argue), but because Dick was having sex with another woman in his wedding eve! Than, when she asked him if he really loved her, he answered "no". Everytime Dick is with Barbara (for example) something happens, you see him showing feelings for her. Not the same with Starfire. In fact, it's just the opposite. Everytime they see each other something happens that says they really shouldn't be together.

I think the writters were trying new pairings when they came out with their romance. It didn't really pleased. They don't seem interested in approaching them again, as a couple. Come on, why would they relauch the stories to write about one that's failed so many times! It doesn't make sense!

As I'm not crazy for Starfire character (not deep enough for me), I don't really especulate with whom she's gonna be in the end. Her relationship with Jason is nice, but I'm not sure if it'll go much further. But I'm sure of one thing: she doesn't belong with Dick Grayson. Accept that, pleaase ¬¬

the sex with Barbara is 2007 retcon written 14 years after the issue of Dick and Kory's wedding

much of the Barbara stuff is retcons used to diminish the importance that Kory had in Dick's life

It also diminished the importance of the relationship Barbara had with Jason Bard

Barbara and Dick did not show any interest in each other when they were with their partners

Avatar image for glaucus
#19 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for glaucus
#20 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio
Loading Video...
Loading Video...

Avatar image for glaucus
#21 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio
Loading Video...
Loading Video...

Avatar image for glaucus
#22 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for glaucus
#23 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for glaucus
#24 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for glaucus
#25 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for glaucus
#26 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio
Loading Video...

Avatar image for glaucus
#27 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

My posting was in defense of Kory and how she has been screwed over to pump up Barbara as Dick's one true love.

It was about defending Dick/Kory as well as Kory as a character by clearing up misconconceptions about their relationship being about just attraction,lust,and a meaningless romance. I even posted a link to the comic vine thread that I made about them that has a lot of comic book pictures showing that their relationship was based on love and caring.

I put in a lot of time and work to copy pictures from many comic book pages and insert them in my thread. I wanted to provide visual proof to support my defense of Dick/Kory ship and Kory. There is a lot of it. I even inserted youtube videos that showed their relationship in depth. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-titans/4060-19081/forums/dick-graysonnightwing-and-koriandrstarfire-1975639/

I believe that Kory needed defending due to the damage that has been done to her reputation as a character and to her romantic relationship history with Dick. She's not the heartless alien slut that got in Barbara's way to get with Dick. She is a super-powered alien warrior princess who overcome her past as a slave and still had a big heart and wanted to help others not go through what she went through, and that was one of things that made Dick fall in love with her. She opened him up and helped him express his emotions better. He helped her with restraint and to live on earth.

All one has to do is read the New Teen Titans,Tales of the New Teen Titans, and The New Titans from 1980 to 1994 to see that all this is true. All one has to do is look at the comic pictures at my thread to see that I am not lying.

Unlike Dick/Barbara, Dick/Kory didn't have any retcons to develop their relationship as a true love pairing,let alone at another pairings expense. Their relationship was developed slowly and gradually. It took a little over 2 years in real time for them to get together, and they became one of the most popular and iconic couples in DC comics. They were each other's love interest for 14 years. No retcons are going to erase that type of history.

If a pairing is true love, then retcons to diminish the greatness of another pairing is not needed.

One poster made a great explanation of how Barbara got elevated as Dick's main love interest at Kori's expense:

Dick ‘chose’ Babs since most of his writers either are more familiar with that relationship, prefer that relationship, put them together because DC editorial wanted them to, think that Babs is his default love interest or just don’t know much about Dick and Kory and assume that the DickKory relationship is pure lust (which for the record, it isn’t).

This is a fairly complicated reply, mainly because the answer relies on a combination of canon, characterisation and the comics/editing outside (aka in the real world). Also I’m admitting it now that I’m much more biased towards Dick and Kory (The New Teen Titans was the first comic series I fully completed and I prefer their relationship to Dick and Barbara).

Pre-flashpoint Real World: Nightwing and Starfire were originally going to get married. When that plan failed, Nightwing's character was put into limbo for a year or so, with a couple of guest appearances, before he was finally given a mini-series and then his own proper series. Since his botched wedding was a pretty big failure and the New Titansseries had declined in popularity and general writing quality, DC and Dixon basically tried to separate the idea of Nightwing and the Titans. That's why Kory (Starfire) is rarely mentioned in that series, despite the fact that she was his canon girlfriend (and eventual fiancé) for something like five years in canon, and the fact that he was 100% fully in love with her and seemed pretty comfortable with the idea of spending the rest of his life with her. Anyway, Dixon needed to lessen the DickKory relationship, and so he did that through a series of (poor) retcons, rarely mentioning her, or belittling her in order to boost up Babs/whatever other love interest.

The writers wanted to push for the whole 'Dick and Babs were soulmates from the moment they met' and so the result of that was a bunch of retcons, slowly erasing a big portion of the DickKory relationship and also making characters like Bruce and Babs hate Kory/make snide comments about her, despite it being really out of character for them.

Pre-flashpoint Canon: That's why it suddenly felt like he 'fell out of love with Starfire', because Dick went from wanting to marry her and spend the rest of his life with her (although the actual marriage was impulsive, but that's a can of worms for another day) to suddenly declaring that Barbara Gordon had always been 'the one' and was 'above the others' and barely mentioning Kory (and if she was mentioned, it was some sort of belittling comment about their relationship). Dick was retconned as always holding out some sort of hope for Babs to love him, and Kory became ‘slutty alien who got in the way of DickBabs’ :/

Post-flashpoint Real World: Dick and Kory’s history was mentioned, but since they were on different teams and the Titans had been retconned out, their relationship has barely been explored and so I can’t really help you much with that. Their relationship still had fans (mainly due to Robin/Starfire in the animated show) and so DC mentioned Nightwing and Starfire dating, but that was mainly it since most of what Scott Lobdell wrote is currently/has been retconned. Nightwing and Babs are popular, too, and since the pre-flashpoint universe ended with Babs and Dick almost getting married, it makes sense that DC would keep on pushing for Dick and Babs.

Post-flashpoint Canon: Dick and Kory presumably didn’t date that long, and their relationship has been mentioned like four times (with most of them being from Kory’s side of things; Tim Seeley has only mentioned DickKory when he needs something to compare Dick and Shawn with). Dick and Babs connection has been much stronger since they crossed a lot more in the Batfamily books. However Dick and Babs (as far as I’m aware) have romantic tension, but haven’t actually dated before (yet) so he’s presumably ‘chosen’ Babs since his relationship with Kory has currently been written as something that was one-sided and Babs has been seen as his ‘soulmate/ultimate love interest.’

(also if you got this far, props to you! personally I find Dick and Babs too similar in the fact that they both repress their emotions too much, and so I think their relationship wouldn't work out/would suffer as a result of that. Babs always struck me as the kind of person who didn't like needing people emotionally and enjoys her independence, whereas Dick has always been the kind of character who at heart, needs people and a strong emotional connection, and therefore after a while they'd be stuck in a situation where one of them would have to sacrifice their emotional needs to make the relationship work).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Nightwing/comments/5zz3jr/why_did_nightwing_choose_babs_over_starfire/

Avatar image for glaucus
#28 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe that Barbara has a big advantage over Kory as Dick's love interest in one way that is fundamental. Barbara is a human like Dick, and she doesn't stand out. She can easily blend in with other humans. She has a secret identity. The public doesn't know that Barbara and Batgirl are one and same. When she hangs out with Dick Grayson, nobody would able to know that Batgirl is hanging out with Dick Grayson leading to people figure out Dick Grayson is Nightwing.

Kory is an alien, and she stands out with her orange skin and 6'4 height. She cannot blend in with humans like Barbara does. She has no secret identity.Dick hanging out with her would lead others to figuring out that he is Nightwing.

Instead of creating the "Dick never loved Kory and that it was always Barbara that he loved" which strongly contradicts what's been shown between them from 1980 to 1994, what could have been written and shown was:

Dick believed that he couldn't be with Kory because being with her would jeopardize his secret identity as well as Batman's identity. How he comes to the decision is Bruce confronting him about the problem which leads to him heavily pressured to make a choice. He would sacrifice his happiness with the woman he loves to protect the man who has been a father to him. It would be about sacrificing his desires and needs for the greater good. Furthermore, it would also emphasize the Bat-life overshadowing him no matter how much he resists which mirrors how Bat office had taken him away from the Titan office.

If I was editorial that wanted and planned for Dick and Kory to get back together, I would have it that Starfire goes back to having a secret identity as Kory Anders.

The things that I would change to do that is:

Change her orange skin back to the original golden skin which was chalked up as being a Mediterranean tan by her brief boyfriend Franklin and her being referred to as Tawny Vixen by Roy. This way, her skin has a natural human skin color.

Make her shorter. Her official height says 6'4. I'd change it to 6'0. In The New Teen Titans, Volume 1,issue #2, she has appeared shorter than Dick Grayson who is listed as 5'10 when they met up at the swimming pool in Garfield's mansion. There were early comic issues that had her around the same height or a little taller like when she was standing next to him on her first date on panel shown in The New Teen Titans Volume 1, issue #26.

Change her hair back to the thick,wavy auburn hair but make it less bushy,thick,and less long than in the original so it still looks normal. Leave out the hair looking like it flames up. It's unnecessary.

Keep her light green alien eyes, but have her wear contacts lenses that give her normal looking eyes when she is disguised as human. She could get them from Star Labs. Hiding her eyes behind sunglasses like she did before doesn't seem practical. If she's back to having a career as a model, her eyes should be shown most of the time. When she is going to social events and meeting people, it's better for her eyes to be shown for eye contact is important in socializing and communicating with others.

This would be away to not tell that Starfire and Kory Anders are one and the same and enable her to be with Dick without jeoparding his secret identity and Batman's secret identity.

When I was reading the old comics, I felt the writer and artist did a lousy job of separating her Starfire identity from her Kory Anders identity with the extreme thick,bushy wavy hair that makes her stand out very much. Her hiding her alien eyes behind sunglasses did not seem effective to keep others from knowing that she's Starfire.

Then they just said...the hell with it, the public knows she's Starfire. Then later on, they just made her skin color orange so it's all the way impossible for her to blend in with humans.

Avatar image for glaucus
#30 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to address misconceptions about the Dick/Kory fanbase .

I see people assuming that the Dick/Kory ship is very popular because of the Teen Titans cartoon show that first aired on July 2003. That show is based on Marv Wolfman run, The New Teen Titans,Tales of the Teen Titans,and the Titans comics from 1980 to 1994 which was the period when Dick Grayson (aka Robin,Nightwing) and Koriand'r (Starfire) were each other's love interest for fourteen straight years.

The Marv Wolfman run, New Teen Titans was one of the best-selling and popular comic series that even rivaled X-Men. In 1982, Marvel and DC Present featuring The Uncanny X-Men and The New Teen Titans was released. Dick became one of the most popular comic book characters during his time in the Marv Wolfman run, The New Teen Titans.

Dick/Kory was very popular among comic book readers and was one of the most iconic comic book couples during the 1980s and 1990s. My favorite comic book couple of all time is Peter Parker (Spider-Man)/Mary Jane Watson, and they're one of the most popular and iconic couples in comic book history. There was a time that Mary Jane was out of comics when Dick and Kory were each other's love interests and was not in a relationship with Peter when Dick and Kory were in a relationship. Mary Jane turned down Peter's marriage proposal and left him in 1977. During the time that Mary Jane was out of comics, Peter had other love interests including especially Felicia Hardy (Black Cat) who was his relationship partner when Mary Jane was brought back in comics in The Amazing Spider-Man, Volume 1, issue #238 published March 1982. It was 1982 when Dick and Kory became an official couple in The New Teen Titans, Volume 1 issue #26 that was published on December 1982. In that issue, Dick revealed to Kory that he does have romantic love feelings for her after the aftermath of Teen Titans' attempt to rescue Kory from Kory's sister Komand'r (Blackfire) and the Citadel who had made Kory a slave for 5 or 6 years , and they were depicted as going out on dates for a few weeks with their first onpanel date being Dick and Kory going to a Broadway show. Peter broke up with Felicia in Peter Parker,The Spectacular Spider-Man Volume 1, #100 published March 1985. Therefore, Peter was still in a relationship with Felicia even after Mary Jane came back into his life. In Spider-Man Versus Wolverine published on February 1987, Peter and Mary Jane realized that they were deceiving themselves about the depth of their feelings for each other and that they were very much in love.

Peter and Mary Jane didn't get back into a relationship until they got married in The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21 published September 1987. They got married and became one of the greatest comic book couples of all time with a marriage that lasted 20 years.

Just one month before that in August 1987, The New Teen Titans Volume 2, Issue #34 had Dick and Kory resuming their relationship after Dick broke up with her because he didn't want to be with her while she was in a marriage of state with Prince Karras to prevent a civil war that would save millions of lives on Tamaran in The New Teen Titans Volume 2, Issue #18 published on March 1986. Dick and Kory got back together after 17 months apart even though they were still in love with each other, and the issue #34 with a very happy Kory flying herself and Dick high into the night time sky ending with the very last page with them in an embrace and romantic kiss against the background of starlit sky. I believe that it is one of the most iconic romantic scenes in comics, and so I had to show it to you. I am convinced that Dick/Kory was not far behind Peter/Mary Jane in popularity at the time. I came to the conclusion that Dick/Kory was to DC that Peter/Mary Jane was to Marvel at the time.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156388071465901&set=a.138272345900&type=3&theater

Since they got back together, their relationship got way better to the point that there was a strong trust and understanding of each other. Dick told Kory his constant dreams of making love to Raven, and Kory listened without any jealousy and gives input about love and feelings from her Tamaranean perspective that ends up impressing Dick. Kory talks to Raven for Dick, and she helps Raven understand that her powers are influencing Dick and that she really isn't in love with Dick. Raven realizes that she's speaking the truth and feels ashamed and wants to leave, but Kory comforts and befriends her. The two became very good friends after that. Kory and Raven tricked Dick with Raven kissing Dick like she was in love with him. After they revealed the trick, Dick tells Kory that he moved his stuff in her apartment. Kory is so happy that she picks him up and she flies high into sky as they hug and kiss. All this takes place in The New Teen Titans, Volume 2 issue #39.

In The New Titans issue #71 published in November 1990, Dick thinks about how much he loves her and how she helped him with his emotions. He even tells a story about space princess Kory to a little girl who was on a ledge. In the story, he described Kory as beautiful on the outside but also beautiful on the inside and that she believed in truth and fairness for everyone. While Dick is telling this story about Kory, Kory got tricked by somebody pretending to need help, drugged,beaten up,and taken prisoner. The next comic issue was the beginning Titan Hunt story. The Conclusion of the Titan Hunt in The New Titans issue #84 had Dick reunited with Kory and other captured Titans in Azarath, but Raven is completely taken over by Trigon. Dick and Kory's relationship goes downhill with Kory still being affected by what happened to her in Azarath and Mirage disguising herself as Kory and having sex with Dick. After the events with Mirage, Kory feels insecure about Dick's love for her even though Dick is still in love with her. Still feeling hurt and hating he didn't know he had been with Mirage and she can recognize everything about him, she breaks up with him in New Titans issue #97. In the New Titans issue #99, Dick desperately tries to get back together with Kory and he even goes to a club dressed up as Nightwing and tries to talk to her when Kory was with a friend watching a show. Kory doesn't want to talk to him until later. Nightwing comes off a bit possessive, and her friend intervenes. Nightwing gets violent with him. Kory blasts him with a starbolt. Not long after, he shows up at Kory's apartment at 3:30 AM and tells Kory that he loves and needs her,admitted that he was thinking with his hormones and not his head in regards to not being able to know that he was having sex with somebody disguised as Kory, saying his morality makes him a one-woman man and that she's that woman and will always be, and asking her to marry him leading to the last page of Dick and Kory in each other's arms kissing. Obviously, Kory accepted Dick's marriage proposal.

You can imagine that a lot of Teen Titans comic fans were very disappointed when Dick and Kory had a wedding in the August 1993 published The New Titans issue #100 only for it to end with Trigon-possessed Raven crashing it and implanting Kory with Trigon's demon seed which all led to Kory breaking up with Dick and returning to Tamaran. In New Titans issue #114 published in September 1994, Dick was waiting for Kory to come see and talk with him but she never showed up as she didn't want Dick confusing things after thinking her life is no longer on Earth even though she still loves him more than he knows. The whole thing reminds me of Marvel's former Editor in Chief Joe Quesada's written One Moment in Time story with Mary Jane leaves Peter which was supposed to explain what happened after One More Day when Peter and Mary Jane's marriage was undone by Mephisto and was apart for 11 years. Mary Jane was written to be weak and that she couldn't deal with Peter Parker being Spider-Man any more. I was afraid that Joe Quesada was going to come up with a retcon that Mary Jane cheated on Peter with her ex-boyfriend Bruce the night before Peter and Mary Jane got married. A few months ago, Nick Spencer brought Peter and Mary Jane back together as a couple in The Amazing Spider-Man issue #1. As a fan that created a facebook page for Peter and Mary Jane's relationship, that makes me very happy. During the period that Dick and Kory's relationship turned into a disaster in August 1993 and they completely ended in September 1994, Peter and Mary Jane had their own problems. Peter had sworn to Mary Jane that he would give up being Spider-Man for awhile and he went back on his word, and Mary Jane was upset about that. Peter was acting all neurotic with his sense of responsibility as Spider-Man, and Mary Jane was stressing out over Peter being Spider-Man and had a cigarette addiction. Her acting career was falling apart. In a comic book page, Mary Jane thinks that Peter didn't come home last night, and she thinks that most wives worry about infidelity but Peter is Spider-Man - he could be dead. Liz kicked Peter and Mary Jane out of their loft. Peter's parents came back into his life, but they end up being androids. After he loses his fake parents, Peter is driven with rage and vengeance and pushes Mary Jane away. May ends up sick in the hospital, and Peter goes nuts that he webs himself up in a cocoon so he cannot be reached. This was heading up into the Death of Aunt May in Amazing Spider-Man issue #400 and the infamous Clone Saga that so many Spider-Man fans hated including me. The only things that I liked about it was Ben Reilly and Mary Jane demonstrating great loyalty and faithfulness as Peter's wife even when Peter was believed to be the clone to the point that she was willing to let Peter kill her when he was under the Jackal's programming which she helped him break. I read those comics when I was in my 20s in the 1990s. Like Dick and Kory, Peter and Mary Jane had their ups and downs with serious problems. There are no comic couples that have perfect relationships. Comic books have quite the soapy element to them. As a person that loves to watch soap operas on television, I actually enjoy that. I just don't care for the love triangles and my favorite characters killed off. When Mary Jane was killed off in an airplane accident in 1999, I couldn't bear reading Spider-Man comics any more.

The disastrous wedding and the breaking up of Dick and Kory's relationship were the results of Batman office taking Dick back from the Titan's office and not having any control of Kory. Before Dick was taken from the Titans office, there was an original plan of a Nightwing mini-series that establishes Dick's greatness among the superhero community. It involved an alien invasion of Earth that included kidnapping Kory. Nightwing would go rescue Kory,he proposes marriage with her accepting,and they get a happy wedding. The Mirage stuff,Kory breaking up with Dick,and Dick's desperate marriage proposal seem to be events that were created to lead up to the disastrous wedding and their breakup. Seeing that Batman office has been degrading Kory into Dick's lustful fling while pushing Barbara as Dick's one true love, I am glad that Batman office doesn't have control of Kory. She may have gotten the Jean Grey treatment. Jean Grey was killed off and stayed dead for a long time in order to push a Scott Summers (Cyclops)/Emma Frost relationship which has resulted in a strong split of Scott relationship fans between Scott/Jean and Scott/Emma just like there is a strong split of Dick relationship fans between Dick/Kory and Dick/Barbara (Batgirl,Oracle).

Dick and Kory did have interactions in the comics after they were broken up. Their relationship was acknowledged in some way or another. In 1996, There was an Else-world comic book mini-series, Kingdom Come that showed Dick and Kory had a daughter named Mar'i who became the superhero, Nightstar. In February 1999, Kingdom Come was followed by the sequel, The Kingdom that had Nightstar in it. In that same month, The Kingdom: Nightstar was released. In the 1999 JLA Titans three issue comic miniseries published from December 1998 to February 1999, Dick and Kory met again for the first time since Kory left Dick to go back to Tamaran when she felt that she no longer belonged on Earth after the attack by Trigon-possessed Raven at their wedding. They re-connected as friends that care about each other.

They were on the same team in The Titans comic book series that was first published on March 1999. Kory ended up leaving the Team to defend her Tamaranean people. She and Dick said goodbye to each other ,and that included them telling each other that they love each other.

When the Teen Titans cartoon first aired on July 2003, The Teen Titans, Volume 3 comic series came out the same month. Kory was a mentor to the Teen Titans in the comic book. She and Dick had interactions in the comic. There was also a comic book series, The Outsiders comic book series that was first released on August 2003. Dick and Kory were fellow members on the Outsiders team, and they had sex in that comic book series that was written by Judd Winick. He was also the writer of the Titan series first published on June 2008 that had Dick and Kory have sex with each other while under the influence of Trigon's child, Lust and then followed by a swimming pool conversation with Kory asking Dick if he loves her in a forever way that they don't need to find excuses with Dick responding with "No." This was after the Teen Titan cartoon show stopped airing. I wondered if this was an attempt to put a deep dagger into the hearts of Dick/Kory fans.

Dick and Kory didn't have any lustful sex outside of love under any other writers. Judd Winick is the same writer that had Selina Kyle (Catwoman) and Bruce Wayne (Batman) have sex on a roof top with their costumes on and without Catwoman knowing Batman's secret identity in the New52 Catwoman comic issues #1 and 2. He was degrading their love into lust. Of course, a lot of Catwoman and Batman fans were upset about the sex because they felt that both were totally out of character as individuals. I was one of them.

Dick and Kory had interactions all the way up to the Teen Titans cartoon series and always had a big fan base that were given ship teases. I definitely wouldn't limit the fan base just to people that grew up watching the Teen Titans cartoons from 2003 to 2007. I am definitely not one of them. I am not even one of the fans that became a fan during the time that they were each other's love interest from 1980 to 1994. I didn't read Teen Titans comics at the time.

I was a Dick/Barbara fan until less than a month ago. I became a Dick/Barbara fan in the late 90s because of the Batman: Animated series. My first exposure to Barbara Gordon/Batgirl was in the New Adventures of Batman and Robin cartoon show in the 1970s when I was a little kid. I am almost 47 years old. The only being that was shown to have a crush on Batgirl in that 1970s Batman/Robin cartoon show was Bat-Mite. I also watched the 1960s Batman TV show and Batman/Robin cartoon series. In the former, there was no romantic interaction between Dick (played by Dick Ward) and Barbara (Yvonne Craig). Barbara was a bit older than Dick in all the shows that I watched before Batman: The Animated series. I was surprised to see a Batgirl and Robin being around the same age, know each other's secret identity and being love interests with each other. I actually liked it. I was a Dick/Barbara fan to the point that I voted for Batgirl - Barbara instead of Koriand'r - Starfire without knowing any comic book history about Kory in a Dick Grayson's True Love poll in CBR's Batman forum that was created. After reading the comics about Kory and her history with Dick, I now regret my vote and wish that I had voted for Kory instead of Barbara.

I became a Dick/Kory fan and now prefer Dick with Kory instead of Barbara less than a month ago after watching Teen Titans: Judas Contract and reading many of the New Teen Titans, Tales of the Teen Titans, and Titans comics from 1980s to 1990s. I have read all of them now. That's how much that I enjoyed reading the New Teen Titans including especially Dick and Kory's romantic relationship and Kory and Donna's sisterly friendship. My favorite Titan of all is now Kory. I actually enjoyed the Dick/Kory romantic relationship because of Kory more than Dick. I really like Kory's character as the alien warrior princess that went through 5 or 6 years of slavery and still has a big heart and becomes a superhero with a motivation to save others from the great emotional and physical pain that she went through as a slave. The Teen Titans cartoon doesn't really touch on any of that, and I wasn't really a fan of that cartoon because of how the Teen Titans were presented more as comedy and with ridiculous Looney Toon- like scenes. They didn't live with civilian identities nor even called each other by their real names. They weren't presented in a serious way like the animated universe of the Batman: Animated Series. I felt like I was too old to be watching those cartoons even though I like cartoons as an adult that is now almost 47 years old. Therefore, I definitely did not become a Teen Titan and Dick/Kory fan because of the Teen Titan cartoons. However, I do understand that the Teen Titan cartoon series helped increase the popularity and iconic status of Dick/Kory which they always had. Robin and Starfire do look cute together in the cartoon series. I am grateful for the cartoon series after recently becoming a Dick/Kory fan. I really liked how Dick and Kory's relationship was presented in Teen Titans: Judas Contract. They had great chemistry with each other, and I would like to see more of their relationship in more DC animated movies that includes a happy wedding that was originally planned for them in the comics.

As for the new upcoming, Titans show

UGH!!!!! (face slap to the forehead and shaking head side ways)

but going to watch it and wish it success

Avatar image for glaucus
#31 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

There is comic page where it shows what made Dick fall in love with Kory:

It wasn't Starfire's beauty that made me fall in love with her.....

It was her freedom!

I mean the freedom to feel at home with even her strongest emotions..

The one kind of freedom that Batman wouldn't allow.

That's what I was longing for--

And that's what Kory slowly taught me to embrace!

Their relationship and love was developed slowly and gradually 2 years in the Wolfman run, New Teen Titans. It took Kory getting kidnapped by Komand'r and the Gordanians and taken to the Citadel and her looking like she was dead after being beaten and tortured for Dick to admit his romantic love feelings for Kory and they got into a relationship soon after that.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for glaucus
#32 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing Mini Series Plans 1991

Posted by on Feb 4, 2012 in Library, Titans Hunt Era: Archives (1991-1995) | Comments Offon Nightwing Mini Series Plans 1991

Nightwing Mini Series Plans 1991

There was a planned NIGHTWING mini-series planned as far back as 1991; Originally, it was going to be done by Art Thibert. There was even a promo-poster for it in TITANS $ELLOUT SPECIAL. It eventually was scrapped and Nightwing later had a mini series by Dennis O’Neil and Greg Land in 1995.

The Plot: Art Thibert on the Nightwing Mini-Series

I asked Art Thibert about the aborted Nightwing mini-series at the 4th Annual New York International Sci-Fi & Fantasy Creators Convention in 2003. He told me the whole overview.

As the mini-series opened, Starfire confronted Nightwing about ‘where their relationship was heading’. They had been dating for a few years and reached the point in their relationship where it had to take the next big step. Before any decisions were made, an alien invasion threatened the earth, taking Starfire hostage. Nightwing investigated and started formulating a plan to stop the invasion and rescue Starfire.

Meanwhile, the other heroes in the DC Universe learned of the alien threat and mounted a counter-offense. But Batman stopped them from taking any action when he realized Nightwing already had the situation accessed and was confident his former sidekick could handle it on his own.

Nightwing is able to reach the aliens and stop the invasion – as well as rescue Starfire. The mini-series would end with Nightwing cradling Starfire in his arms, emerging from the alien stronghold. A crowd of DC heroes would part to watch Nightwing emerge with Starfire in his arms, having defeated the alien threat. Now reunited with Kory, Nightwing proposes marriage and she accepts.

The mini was geared to establish Nightwing’s ‘coming of age’ as a major, competant hero in the DC Universe. Art Thibert said Marv Wolfman read the overview to the mini-series and approved it. Unfortunately, there was a major editorial shift and Thibert was offered a very lucrative offer from MARVEL to do CABLE. With NIGHTWING in doubt, Thibert opted to take the CABLE assignment, much to the loss of Titans fans.

Wizard Interview:

Art Thibert on the Nightwing Mini-Series

Art Thibert: I’ve never pledged my allegiance to a company, but to a person or an editor – someone I liked or felt comfortable with. Mike Carlin, the Superman editor, is a person I’ve always looked up to, and he did a lot for me in my early career. That’s why I agreed to stay on the Superman books, even if it’s only covers. I really like Bob Harras; I think he does a tremendous job. I really like Jonathan Peterson at DC, with whom I’ve had a long-lasting relationship – even though I’ve never had anything come out from his office. That’s why I’m doing Nightwing for him, coming out in December.

Wizard: As long as you brought it up, is Nightwing still in process?

Art Thibert:It’s still in process, now; after I finish X-Men #13, then Pamela Winesette, who is co-writing with me, and I will be starting on it full time. We already have the basic plot break-down done for the four issues; next I’ll start penciling, then we’ll start scripting together.

Wizard: This is your first real writing assignment?

Art Thibert: Yeah – I get back into pencilling – and somebody I’m writing, too! Am I a nut or what?

Wizard: Depends on how good you think you are.

Art Thibert: We’ll see.

Wizard: You’re tying into a line of books that have always been viewed as pretty writer-driven. Mary Wolfman has been the motivating force on the Titans material for so long.

Art Thibert: He still is. At the beginning, I was a little skeptical, because what Pam and I were proposing was a plan to really shake up the character of Nightwing. At one point, I went out to lunch with Marv, to get his OK and his blessing. He was all for it; he was really excited about it. I hope we live up to the tradition.

Wizard: What draws you to Nightwing?

Art Thibert: It was a major challenge. Jonathan said he had an idea to launch his whole Titans invasion, and asked if I’d be interested in Nightwing. I said I’d get back to him, because I had to figure out if I had any affection for him and what I could bring to him. As I talked to Pam about it, we started coming up with ideas; it was amazing how we started going nuts with plans for a character I thought I had no thoughts about. So I told Jonathan I’d do it if Pam and I could write it.

He wasn’t sure and asked us to send in a sample script and he thought it was great. It was official this time last year, so it’s been a year in the making. We got carte blanche to mess with the character – new costumes for both him and Starfire. Basically, we want to redefine Nightwing for the ‘90s. Bring him out of the “disco Elvis” look, at Pam calls it. We’ll give him some high-tech equipment, things like that.

Wizard: With the high profile you’ll get from the X-Men and then the Nightwing project, how do you envision your future?

Art Thibert: Marvel has offered me the ongoing Cable series, to start in the summer of ‘93, scripted by Fabian Nicieza. That gives us time to get some material in drawer, so to speak.

Wizard: Do you ever see yourself in the same position as the Image founders were when they made the jump.?

Art Thibert: It’s hard to say. For me, if I’m happy with what I’m doing, that’s what counts. The Nightwing series is a labor of love and I have an affection for Cable. If it works out that I get to that level and the readers like what I’m doing, it could happen. I’m just doing it for a kick right now. I don’t think of it in those terms.

Editor Jonathan Peterson on the Nightwing Mini-Series:

TTC: Were the creators lined up or did you seek them out?

JP: I basically called in favors. I called up friends, and one of the people I called was Art Thibert. I met Art when he first came to New York, [when he was] first breaking into comics. In fact, one of his earliest pencil jobs was for Barbara Kesel back when she was editing both New Teen Titans and Titans Spotlight, if you remember that title. Art drew an issue centering on Aqualad. In the case of Art, I really wanted him to be on “my team,” so to speak.

Here is – or I should say “was” – my comic editorial philosophy. I say “was” since now I’m working in Hollywood towards other goals these days. But basically, when I was editing, my core belief was 1) what I said before. Have fun. If you have fun it’ll show in the books, and that’s good. 2) To have fun… work with people you like. I’d rather work with a lesser talent that I can get along with and try to editorially shape or groom than to work with a “big name” comic star who’s such a headache, you hate going into the office.

Art was doing more stuff for Marvel, but he started at DC, so I called him up to say, “What would get you back to DC?” and I knew he was a big Batman fan, so I dangled the idea of Nightwing as part of that. I said to Art, “I have an idea. We’ve given Deathstroke his own book, and now I want Nightwing to get the next spin-off.” Well, Art loved the idea and asked if he and his wife Pamela, who wanted to write and work with Art, could have the book, and I said, “Dude! Why do you think I’m calling you!” and he said, “Oh man, count me in! Is this gonna be cool with Marv though? I hear he’s pretty protective about the characters.” I said “Well, he’s really having fun these days. He’s a real team player. And no, I haven’t told him yet, but I will now!” [laughs]

So I sat down with Art, and we discussed what we would do. Looking at my master game plan, I basically told Art that I wanted to push Dick and Kory along, that it would be his job to do that, in an initial miniseries. Art went off to talk to Pamela, and came back and said “How far can we push them?” I said “How do you mean?” and it was Art and Pamela who then said “Well, can we marry them, so the end of our trial mini has some real weight?” And I just lit up over that. I said “Yes! That’s it. That’s what we need to do. Go all out! Good plan!”

[…]

TTC: So you tossed out these ideas and weaved them together, knowing the endpoint was Deathstroke killing Jericho. A bit of reverse plotting?

JP: We actually even knew one step further. We were actually ultimately building to New Titans #100, which was two steps beyond. Phase One was “Titans Hunt.” We kill Jericho, get a real Wildebeest and some other new characters like Pantha. Phase Two is dealing with the idea [that] they are mature. Let’s make the New Titans kick-ass adults. That was when I turned to Art as the lynchpin, to do a Nightwing book. As part of that, I wanted to push the Dick and Kory romance along. I thought that had gotten too stale. I mean, it was just out there, but not really going anywhere. So to me, it was like telling Nightwing and Kory, “Crap or get off the pot.” [laughs] We wanted the endpoint to be that Nightwing would actually marry Starfire in New Titans # 100, because we could do that. There was a Robin in Batman, so it didn’t matter. I thought it would be like marrying Reed and Sue in Fantastic Four. That was a momentous occasion, so let’s build to it.

So I turned to Art. I wanted him to do a Nightwing six issue mini-series right around New Titans # 93. It’ll ship with New Titans up until New Titans # 99, at which point Art could have Nightwing proposing to Starfire in the last issue, and then issue # 100 would be the wedding issue. That was endpoint two.

Then there was phase three. I wanted to get the Teen Titans back, so I explained my whacked out idea. I really wanted Robin, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, Changeling, Raven, Starfire and Cyborg back to what they were originally, so I wanted to do an alternate dimension or timeline, and I turned to Kevin and said “You get to launch an all-new Titans book and design them from the ground up.” Not only that, but this alternate universe would have an alternate young Robin, and alternate young Starfire and all the rest. The plan for Team Titans was a secret one. With the first Team Titans Annual, or at the end of the first 12 issues, I told Kevin he would then be relaunching the Teen Titans with alternate versions of the core-seven members.

[from The Titans Companion, 2005]

http://www.titanstower.com/nightwing-mini-series-plans-1991/

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.