The Problem with Starfire

Avatar image for mediant
Posted by Mediant (366 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided
Browsing the great wide internet and the Vine in particular, I've discovered a lot of hate for Starfire. Personally, I like the character. Let me just get that out there before I get too deeply into all this. This is not a piece about defending the character, though. There are some problems with the character that her writers and editors need to address.  I think that most (some?) of the hatred aimed at the character can be fixed. This blog is about identifying and working through the problems to find sollutions that will result in a more solid and likable character.
 
  Starfire is an a both a fierce and fiery  Tamaranean warrior and a fun loving and uninhibited woman. I will freely admit that I find the whole, sort of naive,  "I do not understand your Earth ways" alien bit endearing-- on just about any character. People have been doing that shtick for years in all the various writing mediums.  I think what sets Starfire apart for people is her sexualized nature. She's sexy, draws power from the sun through her skin (thus is often scantily clad), and has a power that works via physical contact with others (which she chooses to activate often times with a kiss). Not only does she possess these titillating aspects, but she seems either only peripherally concerned with or mostly oblivious to them. She's basically a hot, naive, foreign girl.
 
This brings me to what I believe the are two real issues with the character. Even if you accept (or like) the character's traits, there's the issue of how long she's been around. Most immigrants-- be they human or alien-- eventually become naturalized. Whether you're talking real world time or fictional time, Starfire has been around for years and years. She should be adjusted to the customs of Earth. Obviously this clashes with her a bit of her core personality. Without her naivety and the afore mentioned  "I do not understand your Earth ways" bit, Starfire isn't quite the same character. The character has, unfortunately, been written into a situation where the simple passage of time will fundamentally change  what is one of her most defining traits.  

Starfire by the Pool
Starfire by the Pool
 That first problem leads to the second: Starfire hasn't really grown any definite personality traits since her inception. She needs to develop more substance-- or have what she does have more fleshed out. There needs to be more to her character to focus on. If something new isn't introduced, then her Tamaranean warrior aspects needs to come to greater prominence. I feel like they've left her with enough substance to stand up in a team book, but they need to expand her so she can stand on her own. 
I believe both of these issues could be fixed if a good team of creators took the character and developed her further. She could be a much stronger (in the sense of characterization rather than power) character if they expanded on her. This solution comes with its own problem however. Starfire needs to retain who she is as a character even as they change her. 
 
That naive quality may just have to straight up be removed from her. It isn't believable that after all this time she wouldn't be yet naturalized. Her naturalization could lead to its own plot points though: Forcing her to reconcile her cultural identities and the differences between them. This would give the character a little more maturity and somewhere to build off.
 
Ultimately, people who just hate the character will probably never change their opinions. Many people seem to feel that she's just some brainless bimbo, but I think some character development could go a long way towards changing this opinion and strengthening the character as a whole. I'm positive a balance can be found that allows Kori to keep the aspects that make her unique, while further developing the character-- even if that means some minor traits are left by the wayside.
Avatar image for cbishop
#1 Edited by cbishop (15510 posts) - - Show Bio

As Kory's part of the 1980's New Teen Titans, I have nothing but love for her, but I think that people line up to hate her, partly because of her sensuality.  Starfire was designed to be physically/ visually appealing.  I think as a female comics audience has become bigger over the last fifteen years, they have looked at Starfire and scoffed at male fans who love her.   ...And y'know, a naked Starfire by the pool is clearly pandering to the lowest common denominator of the male comic audience, so to a degree, they're right to scoff.
 
Then there's the hussy factor.  Not that she's characterized as a hussy, but the fact that Dick Grayson was with Kory meant that he wasn't with Barbara Gordon, so who does that hussy think she is?  So really, I'm saying that thanks to later characterization in Birds of Prey and Nightwing, a retroactive loyalty to Barbara Gordon has made newer fans (fans who came after the 80's NTT series) dislike Starfire. 
 
The one thing I dislike about Starfire today is that she's been bounced around from team-to-team in recent years.  Why she would be stuck with the Young Justice kids on the newer Teen Titans, instead of with the 80's group in the Outsiders/Titans, is mystifying to me (but they did that to Cyborg, Raven and Beast Boy too).  Later she was bounced to the JLA, wasn't she?  And then to living with Animal Man's family?  What the heck?  Some things just shouldn't be messed with, and Starfire should be with the older Titans.

Avatar image for mediant
#2 Posted by Mediant (366 posts) - - Show Bio
@cbishop said:
"...Then there's the hussy factor.  Not that she's characterized as a hussy, but the fact that Dick Grayson was with Kory meant that he wasn't with Barbara Gordon, so who does that hussy think she is?  So really, I'm saying that thanks to later characterization in Birds of Prey and Nightwing, a retroactive loyalty to Barbara Gordon has made newer fans (fans who came after the 80's NTT series) dislike Starfire... "
There's definitely a group of people within Barbara Gordon's fans that seem to dislike Starfire primarily because of her relationship with Dick Grayson. A similar phenomenon to what has happened with Jean Grey fans and Emma Frost.
Avatar image for amegashita
#3 Posted by Amegashita (3601 posts) - - Show Bio
@cbishop said:
"Then there's the hussy factor.  Not that she's characterized as a hussy, but the fact that Dick Grayson was with Kory meant that he wasn't with Barbara Gordon, so who does that hussy think she is?  So really, I'm saying that thanks to later characterization in Birds of Prey and Nightwing, a retroactive loyalty to Barbara Gordon has made newer fans (fans who came after the 80's NTT series) dislike Starfire."
  This pretty much sums up a lot of feelings about Starfire.
Avatar image for sinestro2828
#4 Posted by Sinestro2828 (1679 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mediant:    I actually like Starfire/Dick Grayson better than Barbara/Dick, I just like them better as a couple and they've been through so much together as Titans, plus Barb has her own thing going on with the Birds of Prey and Dick will probably go back to being Nightwing now that Bruce is returning to Gotham (its my hope he and Starfire will get back together somehow).
Avatar image for sinestro2828
#5 Posted by Sinestro2828 (1679 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Starfire and find her to be one of DC's more interesting female characters (more so than Wonder Woman or Powergirl).  I'd like to see her and Dick Grayson back together to be honest, and I like her personality and character, she says whats on her mind and doesn't hide what she truly thinks and feels (plus she has some awesome powers and kickass alien martial arts skills that I'd like to see her showcase more often).
 
She's currently off in space with R.E.B.E.L.S. I think, but since Brainiac 2 is really a creep I hear I suspect she'll leave that group soon enough, and when that happens I think it would be cool if she either....
 
1)  Became a green lantern 
 
or 
 
2)  Returned to earth to teach and lead the new generation of Titans like she and Cyborg were doing before, I honestly don't think kids should be leading other kids into battle, lol
 
At any rate, I'd like to see more of her in DC and playing bigger roles, she's just such a cool character and deserves more respect.

Avatar image for mediant
#6 Posted by Mediant (366 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sinestro2828 said:
" ... Dick will probably go back to being Nightwing now that Bruce is returning to Gotham (its my hope he and Starfire will get back together somehow)... "
As far as I've heard over the last week, Dick will remain Batman and Bruce will also become Batman again. The difference being that Bruce will focus on an international approach and Dick will stay local. 
 
@Sinestro2828 said:
"...1)  Became a green lantern   or   2)  Returned to earth to teach and lead the new generation of Titans like she and Cyborg were doing before, I honestly don't think kids should be leading other kids into battle, lol  At any rate, I'd like to see more of her in DC and playing bigger roles, she's just such a cool character and deserves more respect. "
Green Lantern might fit, but i think it'd be more interesting to see Star Sapphire Starfire. And (I know some people would hate this) they could tie it into the perpetual limbo of her relationship with Dick. She's already got the color scheme going on. XD 
More likely, she would return to something with the Titans. That could work too, but I just want them to introduce new elements or expanding her current ones (see: her Tamaranean heritage). Whatever they do, it needs to be more than business as usual.
Avatar image for sinestro2828
#7 Posted by Sinestro2828 (1679 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mediant:    So there's gonna be TWO Batmen?  lol, well, we'll see how long that lasts (I'd rather see Bruce be Batman and Dick be Nightwing again than see them try to both be the Bat, ya know Joker is bound to notice there's two of em fluttering around XD)
 
And I agree that whatever Starfire ends up doing they need to expand on her character and delve more into her alien heritage and fighting arts, she's supposed to be skilled in all sorts of alien combat techniques afterall....And the Titans really need a leader who's not being weighed down by teen drama and hold grudges against the teammates (like Wonder Girl).
 
P.S. I too could see her as a Star Sapphire but I can't see DC making a Star Sapphire solo series, plus as a green lantern she could display her strength of will more often and mingle with other great green lantern characters (we have four human green lanterns, we need more well known alien characters to add to the roster)
Avatar image for jcjqlb
#8 Posted by JCJQLB (2934 posts) - - Show Bio

I HATE HER and that won't change!

Avatar image for deactivated-5c6600594117e
#9 Posted by deactivated-5c6600594117e (22316 posts) - - Show Bio
@JCJQLB:
What did she do to you?? :P
Avatar image for jcjqlb
#10 Posted by JCJQLB (2934 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jake Fury: 2 words... Barbara Gordon!
Avatar image for deactivated-5c6600594117e
#11 Posted by deactivated-5c6600594117e (22316 posts) - - Show Bio
@JCJQLB:
Ohhhh...so....you're pro-Barbs/anti-Starfire because of Grayson??  
 
Avatar image for jcjqlb
#12 Posted by JCJQLB (2934 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jake Fury: No! I just like Babs... I hope someday Dick will date Jesse Chambers again!
Avatar image for deactivated-5c6600594117e
#13 Posted by deactivated-5c6600594117e (22316 posts) - - Show Bio
@JCJQLB:
Ahhhh...I love Babs too. But I like Starfire too.  
Avatar image for jcjqlb
#14 Posted by JCJQLB (2934 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jake Fury: I don't dislike Starfire but... She's a little b!7ch!
Avatar image for deactivated-5c6600594117e
#15 Posted by deactivated-5c6600594117e (22316 posts) - - Show Bio
@JCJQLB:
She's just a super horny alien chick.
Avatar image for jcjqlb
#16 Posted by JCJQLB (2934 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jake Fury: Sure...
Avatar image for deactivated-5c6600594117e
#17 Posted by deactivated-5c6600594117e (22316 posts) - - Show Bio
@JCJQLB:
It's true. She can't help it. :p
Avatar image for chadwickdavis
#18 Posted by ChadwickDavis (477 posts) - - Show Bio
Actually I have always been 50/50 with Starfire  
 
On one hand she is the warrior from another planet with a lot of power and fighting skill that I can respect . 
 
On the other hand she has proven on more than one occasion to be extraterestrial fan service/ backstabbing, selfish, , superppowered psycho B!^<# (pardon my language).  
She sent her "friends" across the universe to help her fight an intergalactic war against an enemy who was attacking her, when in reality she was instigating the fight because she had a personal score to settle. She constantly picks her fights with all of her teammates except donna and Dick (the latter of whom she is usually sleeping with.) All in all she has yet to show me anything that shows that she has any respect for herself or her friends and i believe her psychologist worded it best when she told starfire that she continually repeats a cycle of slavery and escape.  
 
There is a lot of room for her to grow as a character but all in all I dont hate her, I pity her she has no dignity.     
Avatar image for mediant
#19 Posted by Mediant (366 posts) - - Show Bio
@ChadwickDavis: When it comes to fictional characters I just can't muster up feelings as strong as respect or pity for them. They're just characters. The best I can do if like or dislike them and provide what I do or don't enjoy about them as characters-- as byproducts of a writer's imagination.  
 
I enjoy characters for their good and evil aspects equally, so them wronging someone doesn't really factor into my entertainment.
What matters more to me is the character's actions staying in character and evidencing layers, depth, and a palpable personality.  I like Superman for being a virtuous beacon of hope and justice, just as I like Larfleeze for being a simple and single minded creature of avarice. So whether or not Starfire acts in a 'good' manner doesn't really have any bearing on my enjoyment of the character.
Avatar image for isabellaroth
#20 Posted by IsabellaRoth (69 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate her.And yes..she is too sexual. He is using Adam (well, he is doing the same) but the point is...she doesnt valorate to sleep with someone so much. She doesnt valorate her body...lately. A Batman...cant be with someone like her. Dick needs someone more seriousness. Bruce was/is with Talia..and sometimes with Catwoman. Can we even compare them with Starfire???HAHAHAHAHAHA. I better liked Dick with Raven (If we talk about Teen Titans/Titans) But really I would like to see him with..NO ONE! He should do the same as Bruce. Be a single hot guy who sometimes has kids and combates the baddies =)

Avatar image for primmaster64
#21 Posted by Primmaster64 (21668 posts) - - Show Bio

eh?

Avatar image for mediant
#22 Posted by Mediant (366 posts) - - Show Bio
@IsabellaRoth: ... what?
Avatar image for amegashita
#23 Posted by Amegashita (3601 posts) - - Show Bio
@IsabellaRoth said:
"I hate her.And yes..she is too sexual. He is using Adam (well, he is doing the same) but the point is...she doesnt valorate to sleep with someone so much. She doesnt valorate her body...lately. A Batman...cant be with someone like her. Dick needs someone more seriousness. Bruce was/is with Talia..and sometimes with Catwoman. Can we even compare them with Starfire???HAHAHAHAHAHA. I better liked Dick with Raven (If we talk about Teen Titans/Titans) But really I would like to see him with..NO ONE! He should do the same as Bruce. Be a single hot guy who sometimes has kids and combates the baddies =) "

  0.0 What now?
Avatar image for kitsuneconundrum
#24 Posted by kitsuneconundrum (204 posts) - - Show Bio

a character that really needs an update.

Avatar image for isabellaroth
#25 Edited by IsabellaRoth (69 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amegashita:   @Primmaster64:  @Primmaster64:  What, what? Sorry If I had tOo many grammar mistakes. Is not my language. I just don´t like her. There are too many better girls for Dick. But I dont like her just because of Grayson....I dont like her for a list of things...a long list!...It is just an opinion guys,.. =D
Avatar image for amegashita
#26 Posted by Amegashita (3601 posts) - - Show Bio
@IsabellaRoth:  Nothing wrong with your opinion, I just got lost along the way of what you were trying to say, specifically at the part where you mentioned Dick/ Raven.  Lol. 
 
  Your opinion is yours so Your allowed to it, I just got confused, thats all.  You don't like Starfire, I hate Stephanie Brown =P
Avatar image for degraaf
#27 Posted by DEGRAAF (8422 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually like Starfire as a character. I think the naive thing was great but as stated that gap should have closed considerably between her ways and the ways of people on earth. I think she would still be a great character even with out being naive, the problem(s) i see with her is that although she comes from a Warrior race or whatever. The only time i ever even consider her a warrior is when she fights along the Titans, i have no back memory or see any sign or her being a warrior other than when she is actually fighting. When i think of a female warrior i think of WW or PG. Hell, some times i even think or Kory's sister, but never her. She is to playful and dim- whitted to be a warrior. Im not gonna lie either, i like her scantly clad outfit that might as well be nothing at all but all the members of the EL family tree get there powers from the sun as well to super charge their cells and they dont have to wear 2" luggage straps to accomplish absorbing the yellow rays. 
 
I think what they are doing with her now is good for her, she is powerful enough to fight across the universe. It gets her away from Dick. Until they can show that both love birds have completely moved on from one another she needs to stay away and find her self. I think she should be teamed up with Power Girl. I think Karen Starr could teach her alot. They are both warriors from another planet and both seem to be out of place. I think they should team up and fight crime across america (as well as on near by planets), popping up in other books as well. Kory seems to playful and care free to be a warrior princess and Karen always seemed like she had a Kryptonian stick up her butt. 
 
Kory needs to stay away from any sexual encounters with men while Powergirl needs to find a man for a serious relationship(i actually would like to see her try and date Magog). Also im sure its not just me but IMO they need to get any character under the age of 35 out of the JSA. I like most of the JSA stories but to me it feels like that team is an elephant grave yard, superheroes go there bc there is someone better out there doing the same thing with the same powers. It's like they go there and just wait to die but its like they are in a time paradox where no matter how old you are (Jay Garrick, Allen Scott, Wild Cat). Most of the young characters aren't even second rate heroes any way. They are usually 3rd or 4th rate. They would be better off taking the young'ns from JSA and turning them in to a new Teen hero team. They could even be commanded by Powergirl, like a training camp for super heroes. 
  
Sorry kinda got off on a tangent there. 
Avatar image for primmaster64
#28 Posted by Primmaster64 (21668 posts) - - Show Bio
@IsabellaRoth: lol!
Avatar image for mediant
#29 Posted by Mediant (366 posts) - - Show Bio
@DEGRAAF: Even if you veered off on a bit of a tangent I'm glad to see someone gave the topic more than a moment's thought. 
Personally, I don't want Kory to lose her playful characteristics. I really like that she has that sort of personality, but still is a warrior (in battle). I feel like I see too many all or nothing character types. I don't feel that warrior always have to be dire and serious.
Avatar image for primmaster64
#30 Posted by Primmaster64 (21668 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe she should hook up with Jason

Avatar image for degraaf
#31 Posted by DEGRAAF (8422 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mediant:
No, i like her playful character and they could even explain it like she really doesnt like war she is just a natural born warrior, she looks for the good in all life and situations. I agree there are to many people that are all or nothing but i think that is because thats how most people are in real life.
Avatar image for video_martian
#32 Posted by Video_Martian (5650 posts) - - Show Bio

Notice that most of the girls here hate Starfire WAY more than the guys do ;) lol! 
 
but yeah, I've always liked Starfire and I personally don't see anything wrong with the character =D

Avatar image for mediant
#33 Posted by Mediant (366 posts) - - Show Bio
@mr.obvious: You don't see any problems with the character? I go over a few big ones that need work in the OP.
Avatar image for isabellaroth
#34 Edited by IsabellaRoth (69 posts) - - Show Bio
@mr.obvious: Men...frequently like this kind of characters just because almost every single comic where is Starfire we can see her butt, breasts and more and more of her orange skin.  
I love her in REBELS. "FIGHTING" (HAHAHAHA) IN THE space. Is great! Perhaps she will do what she does better than fight. Do you know what I am talking about? Yeah, she (probably) will fuck a Green latern or something like that. =D 
 
lol. Sorry I like the type of heroes like..Cassandra Cain, Steph,Raven,Ravenger....she is not my type...but please don´t hate me! haha
Avatar image for greenenvy
#35 Posted by greenenvy (637 posts) - - Show Bio

Fuck you people who hate erotic characters! I like them. We barely have those kinds of comic characters that represent so much sexuality. Its about being proud of the body without being too shy so there is nothing to hide. There are characters that can be erotic as hell and have a good story the same time. 

Avatar image for andrea_mendoza1997
#36 Posted by andrea_mendoza1997 (359 posts) - - Show Bio
@JCJQLB:  Im with ya at this 100%  jesse should date dick again and barbs is pretty cool u have to admitt starfire is ok but as he said a little mindless and it seems like she does this on purpose to draw attention but blame the writers for that
Avatar image for amegashita
#37 Edited by Amegashita (3601 posts) - - Show Bio
@greenenvy:  Censor your post, man!
Avatar image for davidkenneth
#38 Posted by davidkenneth (500 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mediant:
This is a little late but which Countdown To Adventure is the one with Kory by the pool.
Avatar image for mediant
#39 Posted by Mediant (366 posts) - - Show Bio
@davidkenneth: I've no idea
Avatar image for komandr
#40 Posted by Komandr (12 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion blackfire and her could go a different way now that blackfire does not help kill her people.

Avatar image for Dr-Strangelove
#41 Posted by Dr-Strangelove (12 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to agree with the naturalization idea of a character like Starfire. But wouldn't that same life change apply to everyone as they age? I think it's important to the narrative to suspend natural time progression to preserve their core personality traits. 
 
Though it's important to keep them current and relevant. I think you could at least have her more comfortable with human customs but not relate to them on the same level. Sort of like Data from Star Trek. I think it's possible to have a character maintain a naivety and still fit in. Also worth noting, despite the naturalization of immigrants to a new host country they still retain their culture and never completely abandon their pattern of thought or ways of life and part of that is behavioral. That's one reason why many cities have Greektowns, Chinatowns or Mexicantowns etc...

Avatar image for jointron33
#42 Posted by jointron33 (2107 posts) - - Show Bio
@IsabellaRoth: i think its perfectly natural for boys to like such characters though. its basic anatomy lol
Avatar image for deactivated-5a77aa5e0a324
#43 Posted by deactivated-5a77aa5e0a324 (310 posts) - - Show Bio
@IsabellaRoth: Cass, Steph, Raven, and Ravager are all cool characters but they've got flaws too.  Your argument seems to hint that because Starfire likes wearing skimpy outfits it means she'll sleep with anyone and I don't think that's true.  As far as I know she's only slept with Nightwing, Adam Blake, and Animal Man (if you count him at all since that storyline was non-canon).  I feel like if you're comparing her to Ravager in regards to her sexuality it's not really fair since Rose blatantly slept with some random dude in Blackest night, then kicked him out when she was finished having her way with him.
 
I can understand women not liking her because she's a blatant use of fanservice, but I am not one of them.  I actually like starfire: she's super strong, can shoot energy out her hands, and is pretty good at hand to hand combat.  Her origin is also pretty intense when you think about it.  I just don't think she's been written very well as the years have passed.  I do agree with the naturalization problem though.  By now she should understand that Earth's sexuality customs are way different than Tamaran's...I just don't think she cares lol
Avatar image for glaucus
#44 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Starfire is one of those characters that a lot of people misunderstand.

They give too much of a sexual emphasis on her, and I think that it's because of her attire as a superhero.

She has been referred to as a wholesome version of a prostitute.

I have also seen a comment about her being a nympho.

Of course, there are the slut names too.

What I gathered from the comics that I read

She was designed to be an outerspace version of Red Sonja.

She's an alien warrior princess.

She was also a slave for 6 years, and she went through horrible physical and emotional pain.

She escaped from a slave ship and was recaptured, but the Teen Titans rescued her.

On her planet Tamaran, people are barely dressed.

Another thing...She's a solar-powered being.

The Sun gives her strength and power.

Her star-bolt power came from torturing experimentation by her slavemasters.

I think some people don't understand the character and just judge her by her appearance.

There is a lot more to her than what she's wearing.

She is actually very smart along with being strong,tough,brave,fierce,loyal, deep,emotional,sensitive,caring,compassionate.

Most of all, she is a survivor.

What didn't kill her made her stronger.

She has been shown to have an extreme resistance to physical pain and immense willpower.

She had a lot of aggression in her because of her past as a slave and her training as a warrior.

As a Tamaranean, she lives through her passions and emotions, and she helped Dick with those.

The Teens Titan cartoon doesn't touch on the traumatic,abusive past like the comics does.

Tales of the Teen Titans #4 is a comic issue about Kory/Starfire's past.

Avatar image for glaucus
#46 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to address misconceptions about the Dick/Kory fanbase .

I see people assuming that the Dick/Kory ship is very popular because of the Teen Titans cartoon show that first aired on July 2003. That show is based on Marv Wolfman run, The New Teen Titans,Tales of the Teen Titans,and the Titans comics from 1980 to 1994 which was the period when Dick Grayson (aka Robin,Nightwing) and Koriand'r (Starfire) were each other's love interest for fourteen straight years.

The Marv Wolfman run, New Teen Titans was one of the best-selling and popular comic series that even rivaled X-Men. In 1982, Marvel and DC Present featuring The Uncanny X-Men and The New Teen Titans was released. Dick became one of the most popular comic book characters during his time in the Marv Wolfman run, The New Teen Titans.

Dick/Kory was very popular among comic book readers and was one of the most iconic comic book couples during the 1980s and 1990s. My favorite comic book couple of all time is Peter Parker (Spider-Man)/Mary Jane Watson, and they're one of the most popular and iconic couples in comic book history. There was a time that Mary Jane was out of comics when Dick and Kory were each other's love interests and was not in a relationship with Peter when Dick and Kory were in a relationship. Mary Jane turned down Peter's marriage proposal and left him in 1977. During the time that Mary Jane was out of comics, Peter had other love interests including especially Felicia Hardy (Black Cat) who was his relationship partner when Mary Jane was brought back in comics in The Amazing Spider-Man, Volume 1, issue #238 published March 1982. It was 1982 when Dick and Kory became an official couple in The New Teen Titans, Volume 1 issue #26 that was published on December 1982. In that issue, Dick revealed to Kory that he does have romantic love feelings for her after the aftermath of Teen Titans' attempt to rescue Kory from Kory's sister Komand'r (Blackfire) and the Citadel who had made Kory a slave for 5 or 6 years , and they were depicted as going out on dates for a few weeks with their first onpanel date being Dick and Kory going to a Broadway show. Peter broke up with Felicia in Peter Parker,The Spectacular Spider-Man Volume 1, #100 published March 1985. Therefore, Peter was still in a relationship with Felicia even after Mary Jane came back into his life. In Spider-Man Versus Wolverine published on February 1987, Peter and Mary Jane realized that they were deceiving themselves about the depth of their feelings for each other and that they were very much in love.

Peter and Mary Jane didn't get back into a relationship until they got married in The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21 published September 1987. They got married and became one of the greatest comic book couples of all time with a marriage that lasted 20 years.

Just one month before that in August 1987, The New Teen Titans Volume 2, Issue #34 had Dick and Kory resuming their relationship after Dick broke up with her because he didn't want to be with her while she was in a marriage of state with Prince Karras to prevent a civil war that would save millions of lives on Tamaran in The New Teen Titans Volume 2, Issue #18 published on March 1986. Dick and Kory got back together after 17 months apart even though they were still in love with each other, and the issue #34 with a very happy Kory flying herself and Dick high into the night time sky ending with the very last page with them in an embrace and romantic kiss against the background of starlit sky. I believe that it is one of the most iconic romantic scenes in comics, and so I had to show it to you. I am convinced that Dick/Kory was not far behind Peter/Mary Jane in popularity at the time. I came to the conclusion that Dick/Kory was to DC that Peter/Mary Jane was to Marvel at the time.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156388071465901&set=a.138272345900&type=3&theater

Since they got back together, their relationship got way better to the point that there was a strong trust and understanding of each other. Dick told Kory his constant dreams of making love to Raven, and Kory listened without any jealousy and gives input about love and feelings from her Tamaranean perspective that ends up impressing Dick. Kory talks to Raven for Dick, and she helps Raven understand that her powers are influencing Dick and that she really isn't in love with Dick. Raven realizes that she's speaking the truth and feels ashamed and wants to leave, but Kory comforts and befriends her. The two became very good friends after that. Kory and Raven tricked Dick with Raven kissing Dick like she was in love with him. After they revealed the trick, Dick tells Kory that he moved his stuff in her apartment. Kory is so happy that she picks him up and she flies high into sky as they hug and kiss. All this takes place in The New Teen Titans, Volume 2 issue #39.

In The New Titans issue #71 published in November 1990, Dick thinks about how much he loves her and how she helped him with his emotions. He even tells a story about space princess Kory to a little girl who was on a ledge. In the story, he described Kory as beautiful on the outside but also beautiful on the inside and that she believed in truth and fairness for everyone. While Dick is telling this story about Kory, Kory got tricked by somebody pretending to need help, drugged,beaten up,and taken prisoner. The next comic issue was the beginning Titan Hunt story. The Conclusion of the Titan Hunt in The New Titans issue #84 had Dick reunited with Kory and other captured Titans in Azarath, but Raven is completely taken over by Trigon. Dick and Kory's relationship goes downhill with Kory still being affected by what happened to her in Azarath and Mirage disguising herself as Kory and having sex with Dick. After the events with Mirage, Kory feels insecure about Dick's love for her even though Dick is still in love with her. Still feeling hurt and hating he didn't know he had been with Mirage and she can recognize everything about him, she breaks up with him in New Titans issue #97. In the New Titans issue #99, Dick desperately tries to get back together with Kory and he even goes to a club dressed up as Nightwing and tries to talk to her when Kory was with a friend watching a show. Kory doesn't want to talk to him until later. Nightwing comes off a bit possessive, and her friend intervenes. Nightwing gets violent with him. Kory blasts him with a starbolt. Not long after, he shows up at Kory's apartment at 3:30 AM and tells Kory that he loves and needs her,admitted that he was thinking with his hormones and not his head in regards to not being able to know that he was having sex with somebody disguised as Kory, saying his morality makes him a one-woman man and that she's that woman and will always be, and asking her to marry him leading to the last page of Dick and Kory in each other's arms kissing. Obviously, Kory accepted Dick's marriage proposal.

You can imagine that a lot of Teen Titans comic fans were very disappointed when Dick and Kory had a wedding in the August 1993 published The New Titans issue #100 only for it to end with Trigon-possessed Raven crashing it and implanting Kory with Trigon's demon seed which all led to Kory breaking up with Dick and returning to Tamaran. In New Titans issue #114 published in September 1994, Dick was waiting for Kory to come see and talk with him but she never showed up as she didn't want Dick confusing things after thinking her life is no longer on Earth even though she still loves him more than he knows. The whole thing reminds me of Marvel's former Editor in Chief Joe Quesada's written One Moment in Time story with Mary Jane leaves Peter which was supposed to explain what happened after One More Day when Peter and Mary Jane's marriage was undone by Mephisto and was apart for 11 years. Mary Jane was written to be weak and that she couldn't deal with Peter Parker being Spider-Man any more. I was afraid that Joe Quesada was going to come up with a retcon that Mary Jane cheated on Peter with her ex-boyfriend Bruce the night before Peter and Mary Jane got married. A few months ago, Nick Spencer brought Peter and Mary Jane back together as a couple in The Amazing Spider-Man issue #1. As a fan that created a facebook page for Peter and Mary Jane's relationship, that makes me very happy. During the period that Dick and Kory's relationship turned into a disaster in August 1993 and they completely ended in September 1994, Peter and Mary Jane had their own problems. Peter had sworn to Mary Jane that he would give up being Spider-Man for awhile and he went back on his word, and Mary Jane was upset about that. Peter was acting all neurotic with his sense of responsibility as Spider-Man, and Mary Jane was stressing out over Peter being Spider-Man and had a cigarette addiction. Her acting career was falling apart. In a comic book page, Mary Jane thinks that Peter didn't come home last night, and she thinks that most wives worry about infidelity but Peter is Spider-Man - he could be dead. Liz kicked Peter and Mary Jane out of their loft. Peter's parents came back into his life, but they end up being androids. After he loses his fake parents, Peter is driven with rage and vengeance and pushes Mary Jane away. May ends up sick in the hospital, and Peter goes nuts that he webs himself up in a cocoon so he cannot be reached. This was heading up into the Death of Aunt May in Amazing Spider-Man issue #400 and the infamous Clone Saga that so many Spider-Man fans hated including me. The only things that I liked about it was Ben Reilly and Mary Jane demonstrating great loyalty and faithfulness as Peter's wife even when Peter was believed to be the clone to the point that she was willing to let Peter kill her when he was under the Jackal's programming which she helped him break. I read those comics when I was in my 20s in the 1990s. Like Dick and Kory, Peter and Mary Jane had their ups and downs with serious problems. There are no comic couples that have perfect relationships. Comic books have quite the soapy element to them. As a person that loves to watch soap operas on television, I actually enjoy that. I just don't care for the love triangles and my favorite characters killed off. When Mary Jane was killed off in an airplane accident in 1999, I couldn't bear reading Spider-Man comics any more.

The disastrous wedding and the breaking up of Dick and Kory's relationship were the results of Batman office taking Dick back from the Titan's office and not having any control of Kory. Before Dick was taken from the Titans office, there was an original plan of a Nightwing mini-series that establishes Dick's greatness among the superhero community. It involved an alien invasion of Earth that included kidnapping Kory. Nightwing would go rescue Kory,he proposes marriage with her accepting,and they get a happy wedding. The Mirage stuff,Kory breaking up with Dick,and Dick's desperate marriage proposal seem to be events that were created to lead up to the disastrous wedding and their breakup. Seeing that Batman office has been degrading Kory into Dick's lustful fling while pushing Barbara as Dick's one true love, I am glad that Batman office doesn't have control of Kory. She may have gotten the Jean Grey treatment. Jean Grey was killed off and stayed dead for a long time in order to push a Scott Summers (Cyclops)/Emma Frost relationship which has resulted in a strong split of Scott relationship fans between Scott/Jean and Scott/Emma just like there is a strong split of Dick relationship fans between Dick/Kory and Dick/Barbara (Batgirl,Oracle).

Dick and Kory did have interactions in the comics after they were broken up. Their relationship was acknowledged in some way or another. In 1996, There was an Else-world comic book mini-series, Kingdom Come that showed Dick and Kory had a daughter named Mar'i who became the superhero, Nightstar. In February 1999, Kingdom Come was followed by the sequel, The Kingdom that had Nightstar in it. In that same month, The Kingdom: Nightstar was released. In the 1999 JLA Titans three issue comic miniseries published from December 1998 to February 1999, Dick and Kory met again for the first time since Kory left Dick to go back to Tamaran when she felt that she no longer belonged on Earth after the attack by Trigon-possessed Raven at their wedding. They re-connected as friends that care about each other.

They were on the same team in The Titans comic book series that was first published on March 1999. Kory ended up leaving the Team to defend her Tamaranean people. She and Dick said goodbye to each other ,and that included them telling each other that they love each other.

When the Teen Titans cartoon first aired on July 2003, The Teen Titans, Volume 3 comic series came out the same month. Kory was a mentor to the Teen Titans in the comic book. She and Dick had interactions in the comic. There was also a comic book series, The Outsiders comic book series that was first released on August 2003. Dick and Kory were fellow members on the Outsiders team, and they had sex in that comic book series that was written by Judd Winick. He was also the writer of the Titan series first published on June 2008 that had Dick and Kory have sex with each other while under the influence of Trigon's child, Lust and then followed by a swimming pool conversation with Kory asking Dick if he loves her in a forever way that they don't need to find excuses with Dick responding with "No." This was after the Teen Titan cartoon show stopped airing. I wondered if this was an attempt to put a deep dagger into the hearts of Dick/Kory fans.

Dick and Kory didn't have any lustful sex outside of love under any other writers. Judd Winick is the same writer that had Selina Kyle (Catwoman) and Bruce Wayne (Batman) have sex on a roof top with their costumes on and without Catwoman knowing Batman's secret identity in the New52 Catwoman comic issues #1 and 2. He was degrading their love into lust. Of course, a lot of Catwoman and Batman fans were upset about the sex because they felt that both were totally out of character as individuals. I was one of them.

Dick and Kory had interactions all the way up to the Teen Titans cartoon series and always had a big fan base that were given ship teases. I definitely wouldn't limit the fan base just to people that grew up watching the Teen Titans cartoons from 2003 to 2007. I am definitely not one of them. I am not even one of the fans that became a fan during the time that they were each other's love interest from 1980 to 1994. I didn't read Teen Titans comics at the time.

I was a Dick/Barbara fan until less than a month ago. I became a Dick/Barbara fan in the late 90s because of the Batman: Animated series. My first exposure to Barbara Gordon/Batgirl was in the New Adventures of Batman and Robin cartoon show in the 1970s when I was a little kid. I am almost 47 years old. The only being that was shown to have a crush on Batgirl in that 1970s Batman/Robin cartoon show was Bat-Mite. I also watched the 1960s Batman TV show and Batman/Robin cartoon series. In the former, there was no romantic interaction between Dick (played by Dick Ward) and Barbara (Yvonne Craig). Barbara was a bit older than Dick in all the shows that I watched before Batman: The Animated series. I was surprised to see a Batgirl and Robin being around the same age, know each other's secret identity and being love interests with each other. I actually liked it. I was a Dick/Barbara fan to the point that I voted for Batgirl - Barbara instead of Koriand'r - Starfire without knowing any comic book history about Kory in a Dick Grayson's True Love poll in CBR's Batman forum that was created. After reading the comics about Kory and her history with Dick, I now regret my vote and wish that I had voted for Kory instead of Barbara.

I became a Dick/Kory fan and now prefer Dick with Kory instead of Barbara less than a month ago after watching Teen Titans: Judas Contract and reading many of the New Teen Titans, Tales of the Teen Titans, and Titans comics from 1980s to 1990s. I have read all of them now. That's how much that I enjoyed reading the New Teen Titans including especially Dick and Kory's romantic relationship and Kory and Donna's sisterly friendship. My favorite Titan of all is now Kory. I actually enjoyed the Dick/Kory romantic relationship because of Kory more than Dick. I really like Kory's character as the alien warrior princess that went through 5 or 6 years of slavery and still has a big heart and becomes a superhero with a motivation to save others from the great emotional and physical pain that she went through as a slave. The Teen Titans cartoon doesn't really touch on any of that, and I wasn't really a fan of that cartoon because of how the Teen Titans were presented more as comedy and with ridiculous Looney Toon- like scenes. They didn't live with civilian identities nor even called each other by their real names. They weren't presented in a serious way like the animated universe of the Batman: Animated Series. I felt like I was too old to be watching those cartoons even though I like cartoons as an adult that is now almost 47 years old. Therefore, I definitely did not become a Teen Titan and Dick/Kory fan because of the Teen Titan cartoons. However, I do understand that the Teen Titan cartoon series helped increase the popularity and iconic status of Dick/Kory which they always had. Robin and Starfire do look cute together in the cartoon series. I am grateful for the cartoon series after recently becoming a Dick/Kory fan. I really liked how Dick and Kory's relationship was presented in Teen Titans: Judas Contract. They had great chemistry with each other, and I would like to see more of their relationship in more DC animated movies that includes a happy wedding that was originally planned for them in the comics.

As for the new upcoming, Titans show

UGH!!!!! (face slap to the forehead and shaking head side ways)

but going to watch it and wish it success

Avatar image for glaucus
#47 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

There is comic page where it shows what made Dick fall in love with Kory:

It wasn't Starfire's beauty that made me fall in love with her.....

It was her freedom!

I mean the freedom to feel at home with even her strongest emotions..

The one kind of freedom that Batman wouldn't allow.

That's what I was longing for--

And that's what Kory slowly taught me to embrace!

Their relationship and love was developed slowly and gradually 2 years in the Wolfman run, New Teen Titans. It took Kory getting kidnapped by Komand'r and the Gordanians and taken to the Citadel and her looking like she was dead after being beaten and tortured for Dick to admit his romantic love feelings for Kory and they got into a relationship soon after that.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for veshark
#48 Posted by Veshark (10499 posts) - - Show Bio

@glaucus: Nah cuh it was dem tig ol bitties that made him fall in love, stop lying Dick.

Avatar image for glaucus
#49 Edited by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@glaucus: Nah cuh it was dem tig ol bitties that made him fall in love, stop lying Dick.

Please don't twist stuff

it's very disrespectful to Dick/Kory, its fans,and its writers

Avatar image for glaucus
#50 Posted by Glaucus (568 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing Mini Series Plans 1991

Posted by on Feb 4, 2012 in Library, Titans Hunt Era: Archives (1991-1995) | Comments Offon Nightwing Mini Series Plans 1991

Nightwing Mini Series Plans 1991

There was a planned NIGHTWING mini-series planned as far back as 1991; Originally, it was going to be done by Art Thibert. There was even a promo-poster for it in TITANS $ELLOUT SPECIAL. It eventually was scrapped and Nightwing later had a mini series by Dennis O’Neil and Greg Land in 1995.

The Plot: Art Thibert on the Nightwing Mini-Series

I asked Art Thibert about the aborted Nightwing mini-series at the 4th Annual New York International Sci-Fi & Fantasy Creators Convention in 2003. He told me the whole overview.

As the mini-series opened, Starfire confronted Nightwing about ‘where their relationship was heading’. They had been dating for a few years and reached the point in their relationship where it had to take the next big step. Before any decisions were made, an alien invasion threatened the earth, taking Starfire hostage. Nightwing investigated and started formulating a plan to stop the invasion and rescue Starfire.

Meanwhile, the other heroes in the DC Universe learned of the alien threat and mounted a counter-offense. But Batman stopped them from taking any action when he realized Nightwing already had the situation accessed and was confident his former sidekick could handle it on his own.

Nightwing is able to reach the aliens and stop the invasion – as well as rescue Starfire. The mini-series would end with Nightwing cradling Starfire in his arms, emerging from the alien stronghold. A crowd of DC heroes would part to watch Nightwing emerge with Starfire in his arms, having defeated the alien threat. Now reunited with Kory, Nightwing proposes marriage and she accepts.

The mini was geared to establish Nightwing’s ‘coming of age’ as a major, competant hero in the DC Universe. Art Thibert said Marv Wolfman read the overview to the mini-series and approved it. Unfortunately, there was a major editorial shift and Thibert was offered a very lucrative offer from MARVEL to do CABLE. With NIGHTWING in doubt, Thibert opted to take the CABLE assignment, much to the loss of Titans fans.

Wizard Interview:

Art Thibert on the Nightwing Mini-Series

Art Thibert: I’ve never pledged my allegiance to a company, but to a person or an editor – someone I liked or felt comfortable with. Mike Carlin, the Superman editor, is a person I’ve always looked up to, and he did a lot for me in my early career. That’s why I agreed to stay on the Superman books, even if it’s only covers. I really like Bob Harras; I think he does a tremendous job. I really like Jonathan Peterson at DC, with whom I’ve had a long-lasting relationship – even though I’ve never had anything come out from his office. That’s why I’m doing Nightwing for him, coming out in December.

Wizard: As long as you brought it up, is Nightwing still in process?

Art Thibert:It’s still in process, now; after I finish X-Men #13, then Pamela Winesette, who is co-writing with me, and I will be starting on it full time. We already have the basic plot break-down done for the four issues; next I’ll start penciling, then we’ll start scripting together.

Wizard: This is your first real writing assignment?

Art Thibert: Yeah – I get back into pencilling – and somebody I’m writing, too! Am I a nut or what?

Wizard: Depends on how good you think you are.

Art Thibert: We’ll see.

Wizard: You’re tying into a line of books that have always been viewed as pretty writer-driven. Mary Wolfman has been the motivating force on the Titans material for so long.

Art Thibert: He still is. At the beginning, I was a little skeptical, because what Pam and I were proposing was a plan to really shake up the character of Nightwing. At one point, I went out to lunch with Marv, to get his OK and his blessing. He was all for it; he was really excited about it. I hope we live up to the tradition.

Wizard: What draws you to Nightwing?

Art Thibert: It was a major challenge. Jonathan said he had an idea to launch his whole Titans invasion, and asked if I’d be interested in Nightwing. I said I’d get back to him, because I had to figure out if I had any affection for him and what I could bring to him. As I talked to Pam about it, we started coming up with ideas; it was amazing how we started going nuts with plans for a character I thought I had no thoughts about. So I told Jonathan I’d do it if Pam and I could write it.

He wasn’t sure and asked us to send in a sample script and he thought it was great. It was official this time last year, so it’s been a year in the making. We got carte blanche to mess with the character – new costumes for both him and Starfire. Basically, we want to redefine Nightwing for the ‘90s. Bring him out of the “disco Elvis” look, at Pam calls it. We’ll give him some high-tech equipment, things like that.

Wizard: With the high profile you’ll get from the X-Men and then the Nightwing project, how do you envision your future?

Art Thibert: Marvel has offered me the ongoing Cable series, to start in the summer of ‘93, scripted by Fabian Nicieza. That gives us time to get some material in drawer, so to speak.

Wizard: Do you ever see yourself in the same position as the Image founders were when they made the jump.?

Art Thibert: It’s hard to say. For me, if I’m happy with what I’m doing, that’s what counts. The Nightwing series is a labor of love and I have an affection for Cable. If it works out that I get to that level and the readers like what I’m doing, it could happen. I’m just doing it for a kick right now. I don’t think of it in those terms.

Editor Jonathan Peterson on the Nightwing Mini-Series:

TTC: Were the creators lined up or did you seek them out?

JP: I basically called in favors. I called up friends, and one of the people I called was Art Thibert. I met Art when he first came to New York, [when he was] first breaking into comics. In fact, one of his earliest pencil jobs was for Barbara Kesel back when she was editing both New Teen Titans and Titans Spotlight, if you remember that title. Art drew an issue centering on Aqualad. In the case of Art, I really wanted him to be on “my team,” so to speak.

Here is – or I should say “was” – my comic editorial philosophy. I say “was” since now I’m working in Hollywood towards other goals these days. But basically, when I was editing, my core belief was 1) what I said before. Have fun. If you have fun it’ll show in the books, and that’s good. 2) To have fun… work with people you like. I’d rather work with a lesser talent that I can get along with and try to editorially shape or groom than to work with a “big name” comic star who’s such a headache, you hate going into the office.

Art was doing more stuff for Marvel, but he started at DC, so I called him up to say, “What would get you back to DC?” and I knew he was a big Batman fan, so I dangled the idea of Nightwing as part of that. I said to Art, “I have an idea. We’ve given Deathstroke his own book, and now I want Nightwing to get the next spin-off.” Well, Art loved the idea and asked if he and his wife Pamela, who wanted to write and work with Art, could have the book, and I said, “Dude! Why do you think I’m calling you!” and he said, “Oh man, count me in! Is this gonna be cool with Marv though? I hear he’s pretty protective about the characters.” I said “Well, he’s really having fun these days. He’s a real team player. And no, I haven’t told him yet, but I will now!” [laughs]

So I sat down with Art, and we discussed what we would do. Looking at my master game plan, I basically told Art that I wanted to push Dick and Kory along, that it would be his job to do that, in an initial miniseries. Art went off to talk to Pamela, and came back and said “How far can we push them?” I said “How do you mean?” and it was Art and Pamela who then said “Well, can we marry them, so the end of our trial mini has some real weight?” And I just lit up over that. I said “Yes! That’s it. That’s what we need to do. Go all out! Good plan!”

[…]

TTC: So you tossed out these ideas and weaved them together, knowing the endpoint was Deathstroke killing Jericho. A bit of reverse plotting?

JP: We actually even knew one step further. We were actually ultimately building to New Titans #100, which was two steps beyond. Phase One was “Titans Hunt.” We kill Jericho, get a real Wildebeest and some other new characters like Pantha. Phase Two is dealing with the idea [that] they are mature. Let’s make the New Titans kick-ass adults. That was when I turned to Art as the lynchpin, to do a Nightwing book. As part of that, I wanted to push the Dick and Kory romance along. I thought that had gotten too stale. I mean, it was just out there, but not really going anywhere. So to me, it was like telling Nightwing and Kory, “Crap or get off the pot.” [laughs] We wanted the endpoint to be that Nightwing would actually marry Starfire in New Titans # 100, because we could do that. There was a Robin in Batman, so it didn’t matter. I thought it would be like marrying Reed and Sue in Fantastic Four. That was a momentous occasion, so let’s build to it.

So I turned to Art. I wanted him to do a Nightwing six issue mini-series right around New Titans # 93. It’ll ship with New Titans up until New Titans # 99, at which point Art could have Nightwing proposing to Starfire in the last issue, and then issue # 100 would be the wedding issue. That was endpoint two.

Then there was phase three. I wanted to get the Teen Titans back, so I explained my whacked out idea. I really wanted Robin, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, Changeling, Raven, Starfire and Cyborg back to what they were originally, so I wanted to do an alternate dimension or timeline, and I turned to Kevin and said “You get to launch an all-new Titans book and design them from the ground up.” Not only that, but this alternate universe would have an alternate young Robin, and alternate young Starfire and all the rest. The plan for Team Titans was a secret one. With the first Team Titans Annual, or at the end of the first 12 issues, I told Kevin he would then be relaunching the Teen Titans with alternate versions of the core-seven members.

[from The Titans Companion, 2005]

http://www.titanstower.com/nightwing-mini-series-plans-1991/

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.