Five Revelations About Starfire From RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #6

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#101 Posted by Mercy_ (94928 posts) - - Show Bio

@Miss_Garrick said:

it wasn't like she is a slut or anything.

This wasn't really what all the uproar from readers was about, though.

@EganTheVile1: I'm agreed with on this one. I feel like a lot of quality stuff has come out of this, but they would have been better served doing it as a separate line.

What I do really love about DC though, is that they're keeping the same amount of books and only adding new ones once others have been cancelled. Marvel puts out a ridiculous quantity of books, a good percentage of which aren't even necessary.

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#102 Posted by EpitomeofCool (2806 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinful said:

I don't see it as planned. More like he gave in.

exactly... I miss the old starfire......

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#103 Posted by caladbolglight (129 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not reading this book but after reading this article, I really want to. Unfortunately, it's issue 6 and it's just a bit too late, but whatever. I still feel like the author is treading on thin ice, but he also seems to be putting a great deal of effort into these characters. Something special could really come of this.

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#104 Posted by xerox_kitty (17342 posts) - - Show Bio

I just don't buy it. This is the issue that they had time to make changes to after the release of the first issue... So after all the controversy they try to improve her by retconning the fact that she didn't remember the guy she's had a repeatedly lengthy relationship with & pretending that she has some sort of philosophical belief which justifies her casual sexual behaviour? N'ah... I just don't buy it.

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#105 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerox_kitty said:

I just don't buy it. This is the issue that they had time to make changes to after the release of the first issue... So after all the controversy they try to improve her by retconning the fact that she didn't remember the guy she's had a repeatedly lengthy relationship with & pretending that she has some sort of philosophical belief which justifies her casual sexual behaviour? N'ah... I just don't buy it.

I disagree strongly. She "changed" by the fourth issue, so I don't think they did anything because of the controversy -- this was just what Lobdell was planning.

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#106 Edited by sethysquare (3965 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerox_kitty said:

I just don't buy it. This is the issue that they had time to make changes to after the release of the first issue... So after all the controversy they try to improve her by retconning the fact that she didn't remember the guy she's had a repeatedly lengthy relationship with & pretending that she has some sort of philosophical belief which justifies her casual sexual behaviour? N'ah... I just don't buy it.

It was always planned to do that. It'll be foolish to think that Scott didn't plan this in advance because well, by writing such a controversial issue, he'll know there be backlash online. Besides, he has been saying from day 1 that he wont change his plots due to fan outrage and he has been talking about this issue since september/october.

Besides, it'll be silly for him to actually "cave in" because sales actually increase from issue 1 to issue 2 plus, it still have one of the lesser sales drop off in the new 52. So if Scott did suddenly change his pitch, it wouldn't make sense because sales isn't telling him to do so.

Also, if you read issue one, you'll know that it was told, she remembers humans from their smell and sight, which is perfectly in line with what this issue reveals, she would remember dick if she sees him. I don't get why its impossible to think that it isn't planned from day one.

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#107 Posted by sethysquare (3965 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@sethysquare said:

@fodigg: What do you mean? Was it decompressed in any way? Because Scott's writings are far from decompressed. If you're saying Avengers are written for trade, that one I understand, but in all of Red Hood's issues, theres always a story in each issue.

I simply mean that for five issues Scott has been saying "it's not like that, she's actually like this" and talking about character features we didn't really see in the first three issues. That this was the character he wanted to give us was in the first storyline (trade), but he counted on us sticking around to see it (for six months worth of issues!). He should have front-loaded some of that personality in order to not alienate Starfire fans and portray a more rounded character for issue one. I'm sure it reads fine when you sit down and read through all six issues, but not when you're reading issue-to-issue, at least for the first three, which is what I read.

In fact, giving some of that character background up front required more dialogue, you could even make the argument that the first issue wasn't decompressed enough. Too much focus on action and the bro-tastic buddy story of Jason and Roy.

Well, infact if you checked out the podcast by word balloon, he talked about this same thing whereby people actually complained about the fact that "Kon El" being an abomination is actually a teaser and people wants answers to that right now. Its just basically a sub plot, he had a full plot in issue 6 and have a sub plot within it leading it to be further explored in further issues. Isn't that what comic books are all about? Ongoing plots?

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#108 Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus (6958 posts) - - Show Bio

Starfire still caring about Dick, that intrigues me actually. Truly, everything else is wonderful regarding her, but its nice to see that her love for Grayson was not retconned out with this new reality. Maybe they shall cross paths again.

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#109 Posted by Zdaybreak (1004 posts) - - Show Bio

As a girl who thoroughly enjoyed naked!Jason, I see no problems with letting Starfire be skimpy. She isn't human, and being fiery and free is what her character was originally all about.

Also, oh man, Rocafort's art is the sexiest. It is BEAST. Jason looks handsome with or without clothes. I think I might start liking fictional men more than real ones.

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#110 Edited by sethysquare (3965 posts) - - Show Bio

@DMC said:

Meh.....the costume still sucks

No Caption Provided

This was what her costume was under Wolfman. Kinda looks like the DC new 52 version.

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#111 Edited by sethysquare (3965 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shotgun: I loved those nekked jason panels, I wish he was a little more buff though. He looks a little skinny to me. Also, now those screaming sexist will finally shut up.

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#112 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio
@EganTheVile1 said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@EganTheVile1 said:

Any chance DC will get the hint from pissed off fans and start publishing titles centered around pre-new 52, and treat New-52 as an alternate reality the same way Marvel does the Ultimates and Zombie-Verse? I mean this is just starting to feel like writers too lazy to fact check

fact check what?

Fact check the history of the DCU, what else?

You mean the history that was totally rewritten after flashpoint?
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#113 Posted by fodigg (6244 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare said:

Well, infact if you checked out the podcast by word balloon, he talked about this same thing whereby people actually complained about the fact that "Kon El" being an abomination is actually a teaser and people wants answers to that right now. Its just basically a sub plot, he had a full plot in issue 6 and have a sub plot within it leading it to be further explored in further issues. Isn't that what comic books are all about? Ongoing plots?

There's foreshadowing and there's presenting a lobotomized version of a beloved character in a relaunch issue and then not addressing it for six months.

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#114 Posted by Mercy_ (94928 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@EganTheVile1 said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@EganTheVile1 said:

Any chance DC will get the hint from pissed off fans and start publishing titles centered around pre-new 52, and treat New-52 as an alternate reality the same way Marvel does the Ultimates and Zombie-Verse? I mean this is just starting to feel like writers too lazy to fact check

fact check what?

Fact check the history of the DCU, what else?

You mean the history that was totally rewritten after flashpoint?

Except it wasn't totally re-written. Many things that happened pre-Flashpoint have been referenced afterwards. It was a revamp, not a reboot. There was no clean wipe and starting over from a blank slate.

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#115 Posted by FoxCircuit101 (56 posts) - - Show Bio

This article is very in depth nice, and you told everything so accurately. Starfire, i'm still having a hard time believing her race have trouble remembering things Earth. By now I think Dick is still waiting for Barbara to answer his question about engagement even better she got her legs back. But can that mean Jason can get a shot at the orange hottie, time will tell.

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#116 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@EganTheVile1 said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@EganTheVile1 said:

Any chance DC will get the hint from pissed off fans and start publishing titles centered around pre-new 52, and treat New-52 as an alternate reality the same way Marvel does the Ultimates and Zombie-Verse? I mean this is just starting to feel like writers too lazy to fact check

fact check what?

Fact check the history of the DCU, what else?

You mean the history that was totally rewritten after flashpoint?

Except it wasn't totally re-written. Many things that happened pre-Flashpoint have been referenced afterwards. It was a revamp, not a reboot. There was no clean wipe and starting over from a blank slate.

well it would seem this part has
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#117 Posted by cagedleo730 (255 posts) - - Show Bio

I listened to the Word Balloon podcast. I doubt that he changed his story. He knows enough people got it because the sales are still strong. Like the part where he's called by Dan Didio and Bob Harras asking him, "is this storyline going somewhere?". He said yeah and they accepted it. He's not worried about the message boards. He finds it fascinating and interesting but not enough to change his story. People will continue to believe what they want.

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#118 Posted by EganTheVile1 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio

Look I dunno why I am being singled out as a total d-bag by some when I simply am pointing out mine, and many others feelings that Flashpoint and New 52 were screw ups on DC's part, New 52 would work great as a separate universe like the Ultimates, I said that too, I never said I dont like New 52 at all, just how DC dropped the reality many of it's ongoing titles occurred in, sick of the hate mail, dont like being personally attacked for a different opinion. Look I know noobie comic fans, and by that I mean young fans feel this levels the playing field with old fans as they think old history is now irrelevant sorry, I still feel Flashpoint and New 52 was a cheap way for writers to dodge being called out on mistakes they may make while writing DC titles, same as Brand New Day was with Spider-Man writers, personal opinion, nothing more.

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#119 Posted by Zdaybreak (1004 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: I like them lean. Buff superheroes that look like they're on steroids doesn't really appeal to me. Jason's build is perfect.

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#120 Posted by redleigh86 (570 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nightstar1 said:

None of these are really revelations about the character. Just fixing bad writing.

Starfire's brain? It's hard to gauge a person's intelligence when you don't give them dialogue outside of "Is there anything else I can do?" and "Wanna have sex?".

Validating existence. Done by bringing a lover from the past and his costume into the story-line. WTG, Lobdell. (Check tumblr for the "It's true!" posts.)

Starfire/Grayson: Nope. No living in the past there. And even though she doesn't remember his name and has to sniff his glove (or whatever, I mean real animals sniff butts/crotches/feet because there is a stronger concentration of scents in those areas) in order to evoke memories of the man she loves (but can't remember his name.) You've come a long way, "smart space kitty".

Starfire doesn't live in the past. (Pass me that glove, will ya?)

No, Jason and Kori didn't "do it". Jason just basically led Roy to believe they DID.

In the Wolfman/Perez era Titans, the kiss would have allowed Kory to learn the rudimentary English language. (She kissed Red Star in a later issue in order to learn Russian.) And she basically surprised Dick when she kissed him, so he was caught off guard. (Hence, he was surprised) When it dawned on him that she was kissing him, he stopped struggling, and enjoyed it (from Changeling's dialogue). If Kori already knew the language, then there would be no reason to learn English by kissing Jason. So either Lobdell didn't understand the Dick/Kory kiss, or he changed the outcome.

Exactly this. And the clothing issue... ugh. Just ridiculous. None of these things matter when it's very clear the writers/artists involved don't care about them and their only goal is to make yet another random, forgettable, nearly-naked, bimbo because obviously the only people who read comics are men and men only read comics to get off. The problem is they're not even trying to make her a character. She's just a centerfold with no personality now.

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#121 Posted by KnightRise (4811 posts) - - Show Bio

@Eonidas said:

Does anyone else prefer the old Nightwing costume (especially in the flashback) over the new black and red one? Dick needs some blue.

nightwing definitely should go back to the blue and black, i mean i tolerate the new one, but every time i see that classy pre-new 52 blue my heart aches

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#122 Posted by vuviper (5651 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinful said:

I don't see it as planned. More like he gave in.

I seem to remember him hinting at if not outright stating all of these "revelations" right after the first issue came out. Or even before in some of the questions he answered on this site.

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#123 Posted by aeq34 (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Can somebody explain Jason's costume to me? Starfire had a bunch of Dick's old costumes kicking around...did he ever wear a black suit with the red batman logo on it?

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#124 Posted by sethysquare (3965 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@sethysquare said:

Well, infact if you checked out the podcast by word balloon, he talked about this same thing whereby people actually complained about the fact that "Kon El" being an abomination is actually a teaser and people wants answers to that right now. Its just basically a sub plot, he had a full plot in issue 6 and have a sub plot within it leading it to be further explored in further issues. Isn't that what comic books are all about? Ongoing plots?

There's foreshadowing and there's presenting a lobotomized version of a beloved character in a relaunch issue and then not addressing it for six months.

Lobotomised?

No Caption Provided
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#125 Edited by sethysquare (3965 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shotgun: I don't need him to be overly buff, just bigger than what he was drawn in issue 6 and more like in issue 1. Haha

@aeq34 said:

Can somebody explain Jason's costume to me? Starfire had a bunch of Dick's old costumes kicking around...did he ever wear a black suit with the red batman logo on it?

Those were all Nightwing's costumes. Jason took one of them and wore it as his own because Starfire enlightened him.

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#126 Posted by aeq34 (2 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare said:

@Shotgun: I don't need him to be overly buff, just bigger than what he was drawn in issue 6 and more like in issue 1. Haha

@aeq34 said:

Can somebody explain Jason's costume to me? Starfire had a bunch of Dick's old costumes kicking around...did he ever wear a black suit with the red batman logo on it?

Those were all Nightwing's costumes. Jason took one of them and wore it as his own because Starfire enlightened him.

I suppose it could have been a Nightwing prototype or something. At least he didn't put on the scaly trunks lol.

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#127 Posted by Hacked (20 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@sethysquare said:

Well, infact if you checked out the podcast by word balloon, he talked about this same thing whereby people actually complained about the fact that "Kon El" being an abomination is actually a teaser and people wants answers to that right now. Its just basically a sub plot, he had a full plot in issue 6 and have a sub plot within it leading it to be further explored in further issues. Isn't that what comic books are all about? Ongoing plots?

There's foreshadowing and there's presenting a lobotomized version of a beloved character in a relaunch issue and then not addressing it for six months.

Yep.

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#128 Posted by sethysquare (3965 posts) - - Show Bio

@aeq34: Oh gosh, ouch, those scaly trunks looks painful.

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#129 Posted by BatBen9135 (65 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't been reading this series, but from what I can tell from other fans, Starfire has a hard time remembering things about Earth, yes? So, to me at least, it seems that the fact she has Dick's stuff around to remember him show how much she still cares about him. Think about it, she can't exactly remember who he was, but she knows he was important enough to her that she doesn't want to completely forget about him like every other person she's met here. To me, that seems touching.

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#130 Posted by mrpandaman (15 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nightstar1 said:

None of these are really revelations about the character. Just fixing bad writing.

Starfire's brain? It's hard to gauge a person's intelligence when you don't give them dialogue outside of "Is there anything else I can do?" and "Wanna have sex?".

Validating existence. Done by bringing a lover from the past and his costume into the story-line. WTG, Lobdell. (Check tumblr for the "It's true!" posts.)

Starfire/Grayson: Nope. No living in the past there. And even though she doesn't remember his name and has to sniff his glove (or whatever, I mean real animals sniff butts/crotches/feet because there is a stronger concentration of scents in those areas) in order to evoke memories of the man she loves (but can't remember his name.) You've come a long way, "smart space kitty".

Starfire doesn't live in the past. (Pass me that glove, will ya?)

No, Jason and Kori didn't "do it". Jason just basically led Roy to believe they DID.

In the Wolfman/Perez era Titans, the kiss would have allowed Kory to learn the rudimentary English language. (She kissed Red Star in a later issue in order to learn Russian.) And she basically surprised Dick when she kissed him, so he was caught off guard. (Hence, he was surprised) When it dawned on him that she was kissing him, he stopped struggling, and enjoyed it (from Changeling's dialogue). If Kori already knew the language, then there would be no reason to learn English by kissing Jason. So either Lobdell didn't understand the Dick/Kory kiss, or he changed the outcome.

Lobdell established Starfire as the most cognicient and smartest of the 3 especially in issue 4 where she did warn Jason and Roy about the trap they were about to walk into.

Just like it was Nightwing, Starfire, and Arsenal, it is going to be Red Hood, Starfire, and Roy Harper. This is something familiar to Starfire. On a planet where she feels most people will discriminate against her, this for Starfire is where she feels she belongs.

As Starfire said, she doesn't live in the past, but she does appreciate it and that doesn't mean she cannot have things that remind her of her past.

It just seems that you just wanted to hate Red Hood and the Outlaws from the get-go. I don't see how the things revealed in this issue are fixing "bad" writing when it has been made clear that this was the plan from the start.

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#131 Posted by GiveUpNed (82 posts) - - Show Bio

@EganTheVile1 said:

Look I dunno why I am being singled out as a total d-bag by some when I simply am pointing out mine, and many others feelings that Flashpoint and New 52 were screw ups on DC's part, New 52 would work great as a separate universe like the Ultimates, I said that too, I never said I dont like New 52 at all, just how DC dropped the reality many of it's ongoing titles occurred in, sick of the hate mail, dont like being personally attacked for a different opinion. Look I know noobie comic fans, and by that I mean young fans feel this levels the playing field with old fans as they think old history is now irrelevant sorry, I still feel Flashpoint and New 52 was a cheap way for writers to dodge being called out on mistakes they may make while writing DC titles, same as Brand New Day was with Spider-Man writers, personal opinion, nothing more.

It's happened before. After every age (Bronze Age, Silver Age, Golden Age, Modern Age) series have been rebooted and fans get mad. When Batman: Year One came out, people were mad that they were rebooting the series. It's what happens, get with the times guy.

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#132 Posted by GiveUpNed (82 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shotgun said:

As a girl who thoroughly enjoyed naked!Jason, I see no problems with letting Starfire be skimpy. She isn't human, and being fiery and free is what her character was originally all about.

Also, oh man, Rocafort's art is the sexiest. It is BEAST. Jason looks handsome with or without clothes. I think I might start liking fictional men more than real ones.

Comic book logic at its finest.
Comic book logic at its finest.

Starfire... *ahem* I found it hilarious when I saw the first blatant use of "comic book logic" in the Red Hood and the Outlaws series.

The thingamajiggy happened in the past/present/future and BAM! I overcame everything.

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#133 Posted by EganTheVile1 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio

I am sorry to say if DC does not treat New 52 as an alternate universe I hope they treat it the same way they did Zero Hour and Bloodlines, pretend it never happened and move forward

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#134 Posted by Nightwing1387 (4 posts) - - Show Bio

I really like what they did with this issue, it's great I've enjoyed Red Hood and The Outlaws since it started. I'll admit I was a bit skeptic about it in the begging but it's been pleasantly surprising. Also I had to wonder seeing the Nightwing costumes where was the blue and black outfit and how did she get the current outfit without knowing Dick Grayson right now. Great issue though can't wait to read more especially with the Batman Night of Owls coming into play soon.

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#135 Posted by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrpandaman:

Lobdell established Starfire as the most cognicient and smartest of the 3 especially in issue 4 where she did warn Jason and Roy about the trap they were about to walk into.

Just like it was Nightwing, Starfire, and Arsenal, it is going to be Red Hood, Starfire, and Roy Harper. This is something familiar to Starfire. On a planet where she feels most people will discriminate against her, this for Starfire is where she feels she belongs.

As Starfire said, she doesn't live in the past, but she does appreciate it and that doesn't mean she cannot have things that remind her of her past.

It just seems that you just wanted to hate Red Hood and the Outlaws from the get-go. I don't see how the things revealed in this issue are fixing "bad" writing when it has been made clear that this was the plan from the start.

Being "smart" has nothing to do with Starfire warning Roy and Jason about the trap. Lobdell said that Starfire was an "animal in a woman's body". (BTW, when Lobdell was describing Starfire, he never used the word "smart". He said she was a deus ex machina, powerhouse, sexy, alien (catchall for all of the walking contradictions which make up the new Starfire even though she doesn't LOOK like an alien- heck, she looks like a modern SUPERMODEL - Even the original Kory had huge cat-like eyes, which emphasized the fact that they were pupil-less, or necessarily act in a way which is alien - I'm free and I like to have meaningless sex isn't, in fact, "alien". It's wishful thinking for frat boys.), and "an ANIMAL". Maybe, rather than out thinking those traps, the "animal" instincts took over and she was able to sense the traps.

And I'm no expert in Lobdell's writing, but he seems to have her say one thing, and act in another. She's not living in the past, but she's surrounded by those costumes which she sniffs in order to remind her of "something" from the past. It's not like she was getting on with her life in issue six. She was hiding in her familiar alien "cave" and sniffing old clothes. And so that "familiarity" makes sense in the "animal" scenario.

As to my not liking the Outlaws from the start, that's not necessarily true. When I found out that Starfire would be featured in a new book, I was thrilled. I saw the costume, I didn't complain. I defended it as a fantasy costume in a superhero comic for a solar strength character. But then I started getting information about the book. The character. The "past". And then I became discouraged. And then the first issue came out, and one of my favorite characters was reduced to "Can I do anything else for you", and "I'm bored. Wanna have sex?", and the ridiculous posing...and this is how one of my favorite characters is presented in the debut issue. I get why Lobdell did it. It was to drum up readership.It was to fabricate a controversy. But some of the fans aren't happy that he did it this way.

And let's be honest. There are some 'Fans" who have been saying: See, something happened. Everything's fine." "See, she's wearing clothes. Everything's fine. She told a joke, everything's fine. She can lift two guys. Everything's fine. You know what would have been "fine"? If Koriand'r wasn't presented in a way which was such a mockery of an alien, a princess and a super-heroine.

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#136 Posted by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio
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#137 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio

This is from an interview Lobdell did on this site 4 monthes ago: 
 

I've read the sixth issue, which reveals the story of how she and Jason met -- and he learns exactly what she does and doesn't recall from the past. I think everyone who is dismissing her as a "goldfish" (with tongue often planted in cheek) is going to be disappointed that their snap judgement about Kori hasn't played out.

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#138 Posted by mrpandaman (15 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nightstar1 The way Starfire appears or going to appear, at least to me, to be is the voice of reason.

The way she looks, you can put that on Rocafort and in the older issues she kind of looked like an eighties model with the hair and all.

Anyways, this series gets better with every issue and the focus has been on Jason being the titular character and all. Starfire's role is just geting explored and it has been built upon.
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#139 Posted by ajen (1 posts) - - Show Bio

The core of the controversy around her was pretty much that what was being sold and labelled as an adult woman's "liberated" sexual expressions was (and is) extremely hollow and in effect just boiled down to the same heavy male gaze we've been seeing in comics for ages. I will grant that it's been getting a little bit better: her becoming more interesting and sympathetic is a good first step on the road to her character re-interpretation becoming less immaturely and lazily-written. But to me, having Lobdell tell me not to "judge her until her story arc" is just another way of saying that DC is happy to take my money, insult me while doing so, and then telling me to keep quietly and wait patiently until it's my "turn" to be vindicated.

I'm sorry, but the claims that she's a character who "doesn't need to justify herself to anyone else" just seem like another convenient way to reinforce the sense of entitlement the creative team has with tackling female characters. It's really more like DC not justifying themselves to a market that they are deliberately isolating and they're just transferring that onto the characters.

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#140 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

@G-Man said:

@The_Kid_Lantern said:

What I don't understand, is if the New 52 Teen Titans are really the first official group by that name... how and why are Dick, Kori, and Roy teaming up in a flashback and not Titans themselves? Or are we to believe they were just called Titans with no Teen in front of the title?

Unless I missed it, I don't think the current Teen Titans is the first official group. When Tim puts out the cry, he said something like, "The name just felt natural." I got the impression he just felt it was right to use it rather than he just came up with it on the spot.

Yet back in #2 he said (as Skitter was leaping at him) it was going to be the shortest Teen Titans ever if he was getting disemboweled by her tail.

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#141 Posted by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrpandaman:

How she is going to appear is still in the future. How she appears, to me, isn't the voice of reason. Between what she says and how she acts, she's terribly inconsistent.

I bring up how she looks noq because Lobdell keeps pounding it into our heads because Starfire acts this way because "She's an alien."

She's not promiscuous, she's alien. She's not an "amnesiac".she's alien. She's not posing, she's an alien. If she were an alien whose people, in the old canon, were descended from a type of feline, then she wouldn't look like a perfect looking human (who, according to evolution, are descended from primates.)

If she were descended from cat-like creatures, she wouldn't look like a primate at all. Her head would be smaller, her neck would be longer, her chest would be longer and narrower, and she wouldn't have two breasts and she would be walking on her toes and may not be walking upright at all. And what's up with the mole? Aliens have beauty marks above their lips?

The reason it wasn't a big deal with OldDCU was because, even though she looked different than the other super-heroes, she didn't come across as alien. We could understand protecting people who were in danger, We could understand killing a bad guy. We could understand loving your friends and hating your enemies. (Not that everyone agreed with it, but it came across as relational to the readers.)

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#142 Posted by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

Lobdell calling it a snap judgement is so full of (expletive). People formed that opinion based on what HE wrote. Jason brought it up. Roy tested it. Kori "confirmed" it. He CREATED the controversy to get readers. Lobdell should be unmercifully slut-shamed for this.

@spiderbat87 said:

This is from an interview Lobdell did on this site 4 monthes ago:


I've read the sixth issue, which reveals the story of how she and Jason met -- and he learns exactly what she does and doesn't recall from the past. I think everyone who is dismissing her as a "goldfish" (with tongue often planted in cheek) is going to be disappointed that their snap judgement about Kori hasn't played out.

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#143 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nightstar1 said:

Lobdell calling it a snap judgement is so full of (expletive). People formed that opinion based on what HE wrote. Jason brought it up. Roy tested it. Kori "confirmed" it. He CREATED the controversy to get readers. Lobdell should be unmercifully slut-shamed for this.

@spiderbat87 said:

This is from an interview Lobdell did on this site 4 monthes ago:


I've read the sixth issue, which reveals the story of how she and Jason met -- and he learns exactly what she does and doesn't recall from the past. I think everyone who is dismissing her as a "goldfish" (with tongue often planted in cheek) is going to be disappointed that their snap judgement about Kori hasn't played out.

It was a snap judgement based of ONE SCAN IN ONE ISSUE
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#144 Edited by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually, Jason SAID she had a short attention span about Earth things, and Roy tested this by asking if she remembered people he knew that she should know. Kori was "evasive/sarcastic/"didn't remember the names. That's what the 'snap judgement" was based on. Lobdell wrote in issue one that she didn't remember Dick.  

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#145 Posted by mrpandaman (15 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nightstar1 The thing is yes, she's alien, and how do we know how aliens act? And with aliens creators are given flexibility. Also, given your description of what she should look like, I'm thinking of how Rob Liefeld draws his women.

And the snap judgment comes from people calling Starfire a slut. Which I could understand why, but at the same time you gotta go back to the old addage "You can't judge a book by its covers." Starfire prior to this issue has not been given spotligh, but her character is still growing. We still don't know how much her pre52 past is relevant. I think expectation is really killing you here.
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#146 Posted by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrpandaman said:
@Nightstar1 The thing is yes, she's alien, and how do we know how aliens act? And with aliens creators are given flexibility. Also, given your description of what she should look like, I'm thinking of how Rob Liefeld draws his women. And the snap judgment comes from people calling Starfire a slut. Which I could understand why, but at the same time you gotta go back to the old addage "You can't judge a book by its covers." Starfire prior to this issue has not been given spotligh, but her character is still growing. We still don't know how much her pre52 past is relevant. I think expectation is really killing you here.
We don't know how aliens might act (if they exist), however,  I would guess that aliens don't contradict their own behavior.   
 
As for calling Starfire a "slut", we both realize that Starfire is a fictional character. Even if she was written as doing things which may be construed as "slutty", she's not a real person.  And in this instance, she was written, quite aptly, in a way which deliberately sparked controversy and brought in readers. That was the plan behind the posing and the "short attention span" and the "I'm bored, let's have sex", bit. It wasn't a well crafted piece of work which was misunderstood by the masses. It was a grenade which Lobdell and a new, better dialogue writer, are doing damage control on. If Lobdell had shown Kori in the same kind/mentory/teachery way as he did in issue 6, there would be no problem, even if she did wear a see through bikini and have sex with Roy. Instead she was just window dressing.  
 
I don't know if DC knows how much of the pre52 history is still canon. They're making it up as they go along. At one point the Wolfman/Perez Titans were still intact. Now, not so much. 
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#147 Posted by GiveUpNed (82 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nightstar1 said:

As for calling Starfire a "slut", we both realize that Starfire is a fictional character. Even if she was written as doing things which may be construed as "slutty", she's not a real person. And in this instance, she was written, quite aptly, in a way which deliberately sparked controversy and brought in readers. That was the plan behind the posing and the "short attention span" and the "I'm bored, let's have sex".

Well, ya. When someone wants meaningless sex and it's a women, it's bad? Please. I could throw sexist platitudes around since the argument goes both ways, but I won't.

However, I do blame DC for dragging up that aspect of Starfires character so soon. "Kissing someone to exchange information" and "I don't wear clothes because they are meaning less to me" are phrases and ideas which pander to teenage boys.

Comic book readers are pissed off about the association to teenage fantasies (thus equivocating comic books to childish junk) as in their eyes it devalues its merit as a valid literary form.

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#148 Edited by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio
@GiveUpNed@GiveUpNed said:

@Nightstar1 said:

As for calling Starfire a "slut", we both realize that Starfire is a fictional character. Even if she was written as doing things which may be construed as "slutty", she's not a real person. And in this instance, she was written, quite aptly, in a way which deliberately sparked controversy and brought in readers. That was the plan behind the posing and the "short attention span" and the "I'm bored, let's have sex".

Well, ya. When someone wants meaningless sex and it's a women, it's bad? Please. I could throw sexist platitudes around since the argument goes both ways, but I won't.

However, I do blame DC for dragging up that aspect of Starfires character so soon. "Kissing someone to exchange information" and "I don't wear clothes because they are meaning less to me" are phrases and ideas which pander to teenage boys.

Comic book readers are pissed off about the association to teenage fantasies (thus equivocating comic books to childish junk) as in their eyes it devalues its merit as a valid literary form.

Comic books are a valid literary form?  Also, in this case, that someone who wants meaningless sex isn't a woman. It's a man, who is speaking and acting for a woman,, or at least an "animal in a woman's body".
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#149 Posted by GiveUpNed (82 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nightstar1 said:

Comic books are a valid literary form? Also, in this case, that someone who wants meaningless sex isn't a woman. It's a man, who is speaking and acting for a woman,, or at least an "animal in a woman's body".

Comic books are very much a valid literary form. The man didn't speak for her, as you can see, Starfire does what she wants, when she wants. In Red Hood and The Outlaws #6 Starfire explicitly states clothing is meaningless and you shouldn't connote them to a past experience.

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#150 Posted by telepathic666 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nightstar1 said:

Actually, Jason SAID she had a short attention span about Earth things, and Roy tested this by asking if she remembered people he knew that she should know. Kori was "evasive/sarcastic/"didn't remember the names. That's what the 'snap judgement" was based on. Lobdell wrote in issue one that she didn't remember Dick.

she didn't remember him as dick,she clearly remembers him as a person just not a name to go with it.

I think Starfire's "most precious memory" is because it's one of the few "good" ones she has where she is able to remember it in it's entirety. I personally like starfire. I really don't see her as being any different as when she was in the "old" dc. cause she had meaningless sex with that one guy and no one said anything then. and anyone who has a problem with her outfit clearly didn't see her old out fit.

She is also more than an animal in human esque skin. When it came to the trap she said it was because she was trained in the art of war. therefore she has tactical knowledge.

So really it's like Starfire is the same minus her old hair and i love her

Ps to only my first comment part is at your previous comment thing

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