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    Yoda vs Sidious: Did Sidious really overpower Yoda? Part 2

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    Kilius

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    #1  Edited By Kilius

    Part 1 covered the lightsaber duel. This will cover the Force aspect and most importantly the final lightning battle. Without any further ado, let us get to it.

    First, let's address the opening scene where Sidious blasts Yoda with lightning.

    Sidious blasts Yoda across the room before he can put a defense.

    Cut to 1:16 Yoda then Force blasts Sidious across the room.

    Now some people take the beginning to mean Sidious is superior since he struck Yoda before he could react and could have finished him while he was down.

    This however sort of runs in the face directors intent. First of all, much like Kenobi blitzing Maul, this is a clear instance of PIS. Yoda is perfectly capable of reacting to Sidious's lightning in the later portions of the fight and there's no in-universe reason for him to be taken off-guard. Moreover, as soon as Yoda gets up Yoda returns in kind and Sidious decides to not take a chance and cut his loses.

    Most likely Lucas intended the scene to convey both Yoda and Sidious as equals hence both of them scoring hits on each other and Sidious deciding this battle was to close to risk everything on.

    Some might argue that Yoda only scored a Force blast on Sidious because he was too engrossed in the moment and this is true to an extent, but there are several things to consider.

    One, while I've maintained that Force barriers in TCW and PT are impassive and one needs to adopt an active guard stance - hence Anakin both being hit and deflecting TK from Ventress on Kamino, if we do go with the idea Force users can activate a Force shield quickly Sidious has no excuse. Let us compare Sidious's example with one from the Bane Trilogy:

    "And therein lies the problem." Bane lashed out with the dark side, seizing Qordis in an immobilizing, crushing grip. His opponent tried to protect himself, throwing up a field to deflect the incoming assault, but Bane's attack tore through the pitiful defense, wiping it away as if it hadn't even been there." ~ Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

    Qordis was on his knees offering fidelity to Bane, yet even when he was taken off-guard by Bane's sudden attack, he was still able to raise a Force barrier. If we are going by these mechanics Sidious has no excuse not to have raised a Force barrier in time.

    Either way, it doesn't matter because in any case Sidious takes Yoda's attack very seriously and decides to cut his loses. If Yoda can only score a hit on Sidious because he was lucky why would Sidious flee? This is a clear indication both opponents are closely matched and Sidious can't just stomp Yoda with lightning whenever he wants.

    So far Yoda and Sidious have each scored one hit on each other. No superiority for either side.

    I already covered the duel in part 1 so we will cut straight to the most heavily contested portion - the lightning battle. Did Sidious truly overpower Yoda's Force barrier?

    Before I make my case I'm going to briefly address a few secondary quotes often used to prove Yoda was overmatched:

    Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s Light and Dark Sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat.

    --The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

    The Jedi Master and the Sith Lord dueled in the Senate chamber, but Sidious was too strong for Yoda to defeat.

    --Databank: Coruscant History Gallery

    A fierce duel commenced. Yoda and Darth Sidious each used his side of the Force to try to defeat the other. But the Sith Lord's powers were too strong.

    --Revenge of the Sith Canon junior novelization

    Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

    --The New Essential Chronology

    His true criminal colors revealed after Order 66 wipes out the Jedi Order on a galactic scale, Chancellor Palpatine accepts the title of Darth Sidious and all that goes with it. Reveling in his power, he is challenged by a feisty Yoda in the empty Coruscant Senate chamber. It’s a furious, unprecedented battle royale, with both adversaries hurling and dodging chamber pods. Ultimately, an overmatched Yoda flees to fight another day.

    --Star Wars Trading Card Game

    Though Yoda is a tough combatant, the Emperor uses his Sith powers to release lightning bolts and hurl floating platforms at his foe. Ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda, who barely escapes and is whisked away to safety by Senator Bail Organa.

    --Ultimate Star Wars

    Yoda confronted Sidious in the heart of the Senate chambers. This erupted into an intense duel between these masters of the Force, a fight that Yoda ultimately lost and was forced to flee.

    --Databank: Yoda

    Master Yoda made a last-ditch attempt to stop him, and their fight spilled over into the now-empty Senate rotunda. Darth Sidious overwhelmed Master Yoda with the destructive energy of the dark side, and the Jedi Master fled Coruscant.

    --Databank: Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious

    Yoda is eventually outmatched by Sidious.

    --Revenge of the Sith Story Gallery

    Most of these are just general summaries. Yoda lost because he failed his mission and failed to defeat Sidious. Moreover, as with the sources that say Dooku stalemated Yoda - when really Yoda was winning, Visual guides, trading cards games, and encyclopedias, have a tendency to oversimplify the general scenario. They aren't primary sources. They're helpful but if they contradict the Film and Novels we shouldn't beholden ourselves to them. I mean no one's going to argue Dooku is equal to Yoda as a Force user just because one third party source said so right?

    Anyways onto the primary sources.

    Sidious blasts Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, while Yoda deflects Sidious's Force lightning.

    3:38 - 3:45 Yoda is clearly on the losing end.

    Yoda is struggling to hold off Sidious's lightning the acting makes that clear.
    Yoda is struggling to hold off Sidious's lightning the acting makes that clear.
     Here Sidious is clearly on the verge of victory. He can sense Yoda's weakness and is reveling.
    Here Sidious is clearly on the verge of victory. He can sense Yoda's weakness and is reveling.

    3:48 Yoda seems to have gained a second wind. Hence him going from visibly struggling to adopt a look of determination. And Sidious's face goes from being on the cusp of overpowering his enemy to outright shock and horror as he looses control.

    There is a marked difference in Yoda's demeanor as he goes from on the verge of being overpowered to determined and pushing back.
    There is a marked difference in Yoda's demeanor as he goes from on the verge of being overpowered to determined and pushing back.
     Quite a contrast to Sidious's previous position isn't it? This is not the look of someone in control.
    Quite a contrast to Sidious's previous position isn't it? This is not the look of someone in control.

    Now going purely by the Film, I think it should be pretty obvious Sidious didn't overpower Yoda. Yoda lost in the end because he was sent flying along with Sidious via an explosion neither could control. Technically you can say Sidious won, but that's like me winning on Pokemon Showdown because my opponent lost due to inactivity. It don't mean I'm a better player, I just met the victory conditions, same with Sidious.

    But there are many who insist that Sidious overpowered Yoda hence the cause of the explosion. Let's look at that for a moment. What happens when lighting overpowers a Force barrier? Let's look at some examples:

    "Farfalla saw the Sith Lord turn toward him, sensing the intervention that had saved Raskta's life. Bane unleashed a barrage of Sith lightning, gathering and releasing his power at the speed of thought. The Jedi threw up a Force barrier to shield himself, but the electricity tore right through it and arced toward him. Then suddenly Raskta was there to save his life, repaying a debt that was only a few seconds old as she threw herself in front of him. Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy." ~ Darth Bane: Rule of Two

    That's an example of lightning overpowering a barrier outright. Bane outright overpowered the barrier and Farfalla would have been dead had Raskta not blocked it with her lightsabers. He wasn't blown back by an explosion he couldn't control.

    "Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy’s insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was all at once confounded and in agony—he’d never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it. But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful—the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb." ~ RotJ SN

    Even here when Luke was initially successful, when lightning overpowered his barrier it didn't cause an explosion and throw the Emporer back - it simply tore through and struck Luke.

    "As MACE stares at ANAKIN in shock, PALPATINE springs to life. The full force of PALPATINE's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arm." ~ RotS Script

    When Sidious overpowers Mace's Force barrier it simply tears through and engulfs him with electricity. Same movie as the Yoda example. That doesn't happen with Yoda. His barrier isn't torn through and he isn't engulfed in electricity like the above examples. The difference between overpowering an opponent and losing control of your power.

    If Sidious overpowered Yoda's Force barrier it would have torn through and blasted him with lighting just like the above examples. It didn't it just overloaded and caused an explosion that sent both flying. It was a stalemate. Force lighting doesn't send both combatants flying when one overpowers the others barrier.

    Now let's look at the Novels. First I will address the Senior Novel as it is the one most used to prove Sidious overpowered Yoda.

    "It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

    In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

    Finally, he saw the truth.

    This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

    just-

    didn't-

    have it.

    He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

    He had lost before he was born.

    The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

    They had become new.

    While the Jedi-

    The Jedi had spent that same millenium training to refight the last war.

    The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one with a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

    He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is..." ~ RotS SN

    Several things: One this is in-universe and Yoda's perspective. Matthew Stover also wrote Mace as having a self-deprecating view of himself in regards to Vaster and Bilaba, yet by feats in his own work, it's questionable if Mace is correct. Two this doesn't conflict with the Film portrayal of Yoda initially loosing but later regaining the initiative. Three this passage is a literary device called metaphor, you may have remembered learning it in your high school English class. Metaphors aren't meant to be taken literally. This passage isn't just referring to Yoda and Sidious's physical fight. The metaphor is in reference for how the Sith as a whole has evolved and how the Jedi Order failed because they have become complacent. Obviously, Sidious can still be killed by a lightsaber, he's still a mortal. Stover himself admitted that he wanted to downplay the physical aspect and focus on the internal narrative.

    "The end came with astonishing suddenness. The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength. The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow—

    Half a second too slow.

    The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell.

    He fell a long way." ~ RotS SN

    The first part is accurate to the Movie - Sidious really does push Yoda to the edge of his limits. However, even here Sidious doesn't outright overpower his barrier. "The Shadow released its power for an instant". Sidious pulls off his attack and leaps for the pods, then he zaps Yoda when he leaps after him. When you are attacking, particularly if you are in mid-air and in less of a position to defend yourself, you are more susceptible to counterattacks. Moreover, the act drained Sidious and he didn't have to endure a 100-meter fall like Yoda:

    "The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod’s rail."~ RotS SN

    In anycase the Senior Novel's version of Yoda being blasted with lightning is contradicted by the Film. Nor does it's passage confirm Sidious overpowered Yoda's Force barrier.

    Now let's look to the Junior Novel:

    "Yoda caught it. The blue energy built into a glowing ball in his hand, ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment his attack stopped. But Palpatine didn't stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod. Palpatine was larger and heavier; he managed to catch hold of the edge of the pad as he fell. But Yoda was small and light. The explosion threw him high into the air, with nothing to grab to break his fall. Half-stunned, he began the long fall to the Senate floor." ~ RotS JN

    The author makes a clear it was a stalemate and that neither could control the explosion. If Sidious overpowered Yoda only Yoda would have been sent flying and he would have been blasted with lighting.

    Now let's look at the Script, Lucas's own words:

    "YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber. YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA." ~ RotS Script

    Interestingly the G-Canon Script actually suggests Yoda initiated the explosion, not Sidious overpowering his barrier - "Yoda blocks the lighting and throws Palpatine backwards". Honestly, this actually lines up with the Film portrayal of Yoda's determined look after he regains his composer and Sidious's loss of control right before the explosion occurs.

    So no Sidious didn't overpower Yoda. G-Canon and C-Canon say otherwise.

    This doesn't diminish Sidious. He still pushed Yoda to his limits and his RotJ-DE Scaling still puts him over him. This isn't a blow to his Holiness.

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    Kilius

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    In-sidiousvader

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    I disagree, with this. You can say they were blasted back by equal power but Sidious was eventually going to Overwhelm Yoda. The best I can give you is that the fight was extremely close and Yoda held Sids off until the end, though even that is pushing it. Had the contest continued and Yoda not been knocked off Sidious still would have overpowered Yoda. Let me ask you this, If yoda was still ready to fight and wasn't just absolutely drained from fighting Sheev why wouldn't he just force leap back up there. The answer is Lucas at the last minute realized yoda needed to be exiled. In universe however, Yoda was very tired and literally smoking. Sidious overpowered Yoda in that force lock fair and square.

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    In-sidiousvader

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    @in-sidiousvader said:

    I disagree, with this. You can say they were blasted back by equal power but Sidious was eventually going to Overwhelm Yoda. The best I can give you is that the fight was extremely close and Yoda held Sids off until the end, though even that is pushing it. Had the contest continued and Yoda not been knocked off Sidious still would have overpowered Yoda. Let me ask you this, If yoda was still ready to fight and wasn't just absolutely drained from fighting Sheev why wouldn't he just force leap back up there. The answer is Lucas at the last minute realized yoda needed to be exiled. In universe however, Yoda was very tired and literally smoking. Sidious overpowered Yoda in that force lock fair and square.

    The junior novel makes clear they mutually overloaded each other, which is supported by their visual expressions in the film.

    Expressions mean nothing, by your logic Sidious was actually struggling with Maul in TCW.

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    Kilius

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    @in-sidiousvader:

    I disagree, with this. You can say they were blasted back by equal power but Sidious was eventually going to Overwhelm Yoda.

    I'm sure he's capable of it. My main point of contention was that it didn't happen in the Movie - it was a stalemate in terms of who overpowered the other. Sidious only 'won' because Yoda failed his mission. He didn't outright overpower Yoda.

    The best I can give you is that the fight was extremely close and Yoda held Sids off until the end, though even that is pushing it. Had the contest continued and Yoda not been knocked off Sidious still would have overpowered Yoda.

    Extremely debatable and speculative. The fall clearly had a big impact on Yoda's condition. Sidious meanwhile even without having to take the same fall was gasping for air and felt like a very tired old man:

    "The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod’s rail."~ RotS SN

    Clearly, had this happened on neutral ground both would have been near close to exhausted at this point. It's not clear who would have won had the duel continued.

    Let me ask you this, If yoda was still ready to fight and wasn't just absolutely drained from fighting Sheev why wouldn't he just force leap back up there.

    Two reasons: One Yoda just took a heavy 100-meter fall. Sidious didn't. Two Yoda was worried Sidious would call in the Clone Troopers as back up:

    "Bruised and battered, but alive he crawled into a service chute. There would be no second chance to kill the Emporer; he would summon his clone troops immediately for protection." ~ RotS JN

    This is backed up by the SN where Sidious sounds the sirens almost immediately after the fight.

    In universe however, Yoda was very tired and literally smoking.

    And so was Sidious and he didn't take a 100-meter fall:

    "The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod’s rail."~ RotS SN

    Sidious overpowered Yoda in that force lock fair and square.

    Oh really?:

    No Caption Provided
    No Caption Provided

    "Yoda caught it. The blue energy built into a glowing ball in his hand, ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment his attack stopped. But Palpatine didn't stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod. Palpatine was larger and heavier; he managed to catch hold of the edge of the pad as he fell. But Yoda was small and light. The explosion threw him high into the air, with nothing to grab to break his fall. Half-stunned, he began the long fall to the Senate floor." ~ RotS JN

    "YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber. YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA." ~ RotS Script

    So Sidious 'overpowered' Yoda even though Sidious let off his attack in the SN, and that it's outright stated in the JN neither could hold it any longer, or that Lucas himself interprets it as Yoda pushing Sidious back and throwing him off the platform thus the cause of the explosion?

    I beg to differ.

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    Kilius

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    @darthant66 said:
    @in-sidiousvader said:

    I disagree, with this. You can say they were blasted back by equal power but Sidious was eventually going to Overwhelm Yoda. The best I can give you is that the fight was extremely close and Yoda held Sids off until the end, though even that is pushing it. Had the contest continued and Yoda not been knocked off Sidious still would have overpowered Yoda. Let me ask you this, If yoda was still ready to fight and wasn't just absolutely drained from fighting Sheev why wouldn't he just force leap back up there. The answer is Lucas at the last minute realized yoda needed to be exiled. In universe however, Yoda was very tired and literally smoking. Sidious overpowered Yoda in that force lock fair and square.

    The junior novel makes clear they mutually overloaded each other, which is supported by their visual expressions in the film.

    Expressions mean nothing, by your logic Sidious was actually struggling with Maul in TCW.

    It's not unreasonable tbh. Maul was enraged beyond anything he probably ever felt when he saw Savage die. It's not unreasonable he could perform that well under those circumstances.

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    In-sidiousvader

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    @kilius said:

    @in-sidiousvader:

    I disagree, with this. You can say they were blasted back by equal power but Sidious was eventually going to Overwhelm Yoda.

    I'm sure he's capable of it. My main point of contention was that it didn't happen in the Movie - it was a stalemate in terms of who overpowered the other. Sidious only 'won' because Yoda failed his mission. He didn't outright overpower Yoda.

    The best I can give you is that the fight was extremely close and Yoda held Sids off until the end, though even that is pushing it. Had the contest continued and Yoda not been knocked off Sidious still would have overpowered Yoda.

    Extremely debatable and speculative. The fall clearly had a big impact on Yoda's condition. Sidious meanwhile even without having to take the same fall was gasping for air and felt like a very tired old man:

    "The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod’s rail."~ RotS SN

    Clearly, had this happened on neutral ground both would have been near close to exhausted at this point. It's not clear who would have won had the duel continued.

    Let me ask you this, If yoda was still ready to fight and wasn't just absolutely drained from fighting Sheev why wouldn't he just force leap back up there.

    Two reasons: One Yoda just took a heavy 100-meter fall. Sidious didn't. Two Yoda was worried Sidious would call in the Clone Troopers as back up:

    "Bruised and battered, but alive he crawled into a service chute. There would be no second chance to kill the Emporer; he would summon his clone troops immediately for protection." ~ RotS JN

    This is backed up by the SN where Sidious sounds the sirens almost immediately after the fight.

    In universe however, Yoda was very tired and literally smoking.

    And so was Sidious and he didn't take a 100-meter fall:

    "The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod’s rail."~ RotS SN

    Sidious overpowered Yoda in that force lock fair and square.

    Oh really?:

    No Caption Provided
    No Caption Provided

    "Yoda caught it. The blue energy built into a glowing ball in his hand, ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment his attack stopped. But Palpatine didn't stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod. Palpatine was larger and heavier; he managed to catch hold of the edge of the pad as he fell. But Yoda was small and light. The explosion threw him high into the air, with nothing to grab to break his fall. Half-stunned, he began the long fall to the Senate floor." ~ RotS JN

    "YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber. YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA." ~ RotS Script

    So Sidious 'overpowered' Yoda even though Sidious let off his attack in the SN, and that it's outright stated in the JN neither could hold it any longer, or that Lucas himself interprets it as Yoda pushing Sidious back and throwing him off the platform thus the cause of the explosion?

    I beg to differ.

    I can't respond to all of this ATM, but I just wanted to say that Force users have taken way worse falls before. They can coat themselves in a force shield preventing them from harm we see Krayt do this in Legacy

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    dark-sith123

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    Ehh, the arguments themselves aren't bad. Problem is, canon begs to differ.

    Will elaborate tomorrow when I get back to my computer. Until then, I'm sorry but I can't reply.

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    KeenCraft

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    @kilius

    Interesting. I personally never found the explosion to be Sidious overpowering Yoda. But I always deemed it an involuntary reaction between their power overloading one anothers.

    I didn't realize it was a more of a conscious initiative on Yoda's part.

    @kilius said:

    Interestingly the G-Canon Script actually suggests Yoda initiated the explosion, not Sidious overpowering his barrier - "Yoda blocks the lighting and throws Palpatine backwards". Honestly, this actually lines up with the Film portrayal of Yoda's determined look after he regains his composer and Sidious's loss of control right before the explosion occurs.

    So no Sidious didn't overpower Yoda. G-Canon and C-Canon say otherwise.

    This doesn't diminish Sidious. He still pushed Yoda to his limits and his RotJ-DE Scaling still puts him over him. This isn't a blow to his Holiness.

    To add, Yoda was intercepting and redirecting Sidious's lightning throughout their fight just fine. The climax atop the pod had Sidious drawing on the fullest extent of his power while Yoda responded in kind to defend. This forced both opponents into a complete deadlock, until neither could sustain the impetus of the power any longer. The only way Sidious can effectively exhaust Yoda is by exhausting himself. That display of power atop the pods is not casually repeated.

    Interestingly enough, (This will only be game mechanics from here on) I was playing Star Wars Battlefront 2 and noticed they drew inspiration from the G canon script + novels:

    The Sith Lord only redoubled his attack. Hurling Force lightning, the Emperor backed away, to the very edge of the platform. Following him was like walking against hurricane winds.

    - RotS

    In game, Sidious's 'Dark Aura' ability creates a shroud of lightning and literal hurricane winds. This attack slows Yoda's walk to basically a standstill.

    And that Force bubble explosion? It looks and even sounds exactly like Yoda's 'Unleash' ability, which is basically a Force blast that he can employ after absorbing Sidious's lightning.

    You confirmed that the bubble explosion was a conscious effort from Yoda. And this falls in line with their interpretation. Which falls in line with the G canon script. The mechanics fit well. A fun tidbit there.

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    KeenCraft

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    I have never wavered from Yoda 5/10 Sidious

    But now it seems that The Force gap is FAR too miniscule between themYoda is the overall marginally superior Force user due because of his dueling. Yoda 5.5/6 out of 10

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    Kilius

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    #13  Edited By Kilius

    @keencraft:

    Tbf I do think Sidious's lightning sort of negates Yoda's saber advantage.

    When Yoda disarmed Sidious, he was blasted off the Senate podium, as per the JN and the Comic - the Script has Yoda mysteriously breaking off his attack for no reason.

    And of course, Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand right toward the end.

    I think Yoda being blasted in the office is PIS because he can later react to lightning just fine, but Sidious can consistently overpower Yoda's blade. I think in the end it comes down to a Force battle, where either can take it.

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    KeenCraft

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    #14  Edited By KeenCraft

    @kilius said:

    @keencraft:

    Tbf I do think Sidious's lightning sort of negates Yoda's saber advantage.

    When Yoda disarmed Sidious, he was blasted off the Senate podium, as per the JN and the Comic - the Script has Yoda mysteriously breaking off his attack for no reason.

    And of course, Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand right toward the end.

    I think Yoda being blasted in the office is PIS because he can later react to lightning just fine, but Sidious can consistently overpower Yoda's blade. I think in the end it comes down to a Force battle, where either can take it.

    I agree with everything you said here, but I am speaking from "on-paper" terms.

    Sabers may end up ineffectual if he can be disarmed by lightning again. But this may not always occur in favor of one character. Many things can happen. Yoda's saber may end up in an easily accessible area. It may fly completely out of reach.

    If both Sidious and Yoda expend their reserves as they did atop the pod, it may turn back into a saber battle when another blast happens.

    Of course this is is still anyone's game.

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    YodaOrb35

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    #15  Edited By YodaOrb35

    @in-sidiousvader: No- It's really clear by the movie alone that Palpatine was losing the lightning battle- watch 3:39-3:54.

    Palpatine advances on Yoda and begins to pour a great amount of strength and effort into his attack, but is only successful when he begins to elevate his body to eventually resorting to standing on his toes in order to aim the lightning above Yoda's tutmaminis defense. The lightning begins to get to close to Yoda's face and is so powerful that Yoda momentarily begins to falter. Palpatine presses his attack further reveling in triumph which causes Yoda to stop faltering and to send the lightning back at Sidious who is at first taken aback and then outright astounded/terrified by Yoda's power, slowly reeling backwards with the strength of Yoda's counter attack. There is still lightning coming out of Palpatine's hands(although I have another alternate theory on that view I'll share that later), but it is being absorbed by Yoda into a blue ball of Force energy that he is getting ready to push back at Sidious until the combination of both of their Force energies becomes too much to contain and throws them both back.

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    In-sidiousvader

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    #16  Edited By In-sidiousvader

    @in-sidiousvader: No- It's really clear by the movie alone that Palpatine was losing the lightning battle- watch 3:39-3:54.

    Palpatine advances on Yoda and begins to pour a great amount of strength and effort into his attack, but is only successful when he begins to elevate his body to eventually resorting to standing on his toes in order to aim the lightning above Yoda's tutmaminis defense. The lightning begins to get to close to Yoda's face and is so powerful that Yoda momentarily begins to falter. Palpatine presses his attack further reveling in triumph which causes Yoda to stop faltering and to send the lightning back at Sidious who is at first taken aback and then outright astounded/terrified by Yoda's power, slowly reeling backwards with the strength of Yoda's counter attack. There is still lightning coming out of Palpatine's hands(although I have another alternate theory on that view I'll share that later), but it is being absorbed by Yoda into a blue ball of Force energy that he is getting ready to push back at Sidious until the combination of both of their Force energies becomes too much to contain and throws them both back.

    sir... If I may be rude for a moment, I have reviewed this fight more times than you have taken in a breath. I am fully aware of the arguments and to this I say Nay.

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    Kilius

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    @yodaorb35:

    Don't be offended by Insidiousvader's demeanor. He's like that with everyone and is just messing around.

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    YodaOrb35

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    #18  Edited By YodaOrb35

    @in-sidiousvader: I have reviewed this fight since I was in the womb- I think you should change your stance to nay sir :)

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    Dawn_of_Ages

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    Solid thread. Valkorion gets oneshot 10/10.

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    Kilius

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    @dawn_of_ages:

    Don't know much about Valkorion.

    Thanks for the compliment(even if it was meant to be sarcastic and backhanded lol).

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    Dawn_of_Ages

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    @kilius: I'm being truthful. Especially in the remark about Trashkorion.

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    YodaOrb35

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    @kilius: We don't see Sidious get disarmed in the comic(https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Episode-III-Revenge-Of-The-Sith/Issue-4?id=71510#12)and we don't see retrieve it or the clones give it to him either(https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Episode-III-Revenge-Of-The-Sith/Issue-4?id=71510#14). I don't think he was disarmed in the comic as he was holding his red saber in his right hand and we see him shooting lightning at Yoda in the Chancellor's Podium with his left hand not his right, although the drawing is admittedly a bit flawed in its portrayal of the lightning bolts and where they are coming from/being deflected to.

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    Kilius

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    #23  Edited By Kilius

    @yodaorb35:

    Actually you can see lightning coming out from under Palpatine's sleeve, which is a pretty strong indication he's using both hands to create lighting.

    The comic leaves it open as to whether Sidious was disarmed or if he just put it away(and to be fair Sidious does just put it way in the deleted scenes rendered in animation, which shows Lucas toyed with the idea) but again it's vague and doesn't really contradict anything outright. The Script is still G-Canon and higher canon in regards to contradictions anyways and the Film certainly doesn't contradict the Script; the only thing higher Canon than the Script.

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    YodaOrb35

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    #24  Edited By YodaOrb35

    @kilius: I'm not sure- Palpatine's lightning rebounds everywhere at times, even rebounding off of him but apparently not hurting him if we believe what we see on screen.

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