Recently a general consensus has been made that because of the Rule of Two scaling Sidious's apprentices must rank much higher than Bane and Zannah, because logically even though it's obvious they never came close to matching Sidious's power, they should be ranked among the later or at least mid generations of Sith Lords.

Part of my motivation is that people outright refuse to debate me in CaV on the basis of the RoT scaling. I'm going to show why this logic is false and how the RoT scaling which is vastly overinflated on these forums, is likely more gradual, and how Bane and Zannah's feats easily rival Dooku and Maul's.

Point 1. The Rule of Two growth rate was minimal.

The difference in power between Bane and Zannah is a pretty good yardstick in figuring out the growth rate between generations of Sith Lords.

While Zannah is canonically more powerful than Bane, Bane is still close enough that Zannah couldn't defeat him with TK.

It's true that she did manage to Force push him against the wall just before the fight, even with hastily assembled Force barrier

"He began to gather the dark side, the power slowly building. But before he could unleash it he was hit by a wall of thunderous force rolling out from a corridor to his left. Instinctively he threw up a defensive shield, absorbing the blow. Despite this, he was slammed against the opposite wall, knocking the breath from his lungs." ~ Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

but Bane was off guard not in the best position, and he was still hindered by the effects of the Serra's drug, the senflax:

"Bane could still feel the lingering effects of the drugs in his system. He'd done what he could to burn them away with the fire of the dark side, but the Sith were not as adept as the Jedi at cleansing their systems of impurities. The last dregs of the chemicals would simply have to break down naturally over time. Until then he would be at less than full strength. A fraction slower in thoughts and actions, less adept at wielding the power of the Force. And he was still without his lightsaber." ~ Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

And despite being hindered, Zannah considered the use of TK in their first confrontation against a fully prepared Bane useless.

"There was also his incredible command of the Force to contend with. Simple tactics like pushing an opponent from across the room were impractical against any foe with proper training. Both she and Bane knew how to surround themselves with an invisible field of energy that absorbed or repelled the most basic tricks taught to any Jedi or Sith. But Bane could unleash devastating bolts of dark side lightning from his hands almost at will." ~ Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

What this means is that if we use the difference between Bane and Zannah as a measuring stick, we can say that the growth between the generations was minimal. The other generations are vague as we don't know much about them.

We don't know the circumstances behind Gean and Gravid - Gravid was driven mad by his attempt to merge the light and dark, which could have potentially hindered him with Gean defeated him.

"A human Sith Lord whose short reign had elapsed some five centuries earlier, Gravid had been persuaded to believe that total commitment to the dark side would sentence the Sith Order to eventual defeat, and so had sought to introduce Jedi selflessness and compassion into his teachings and practice, forgetting that there can be no return to the light for an adept who has entered the dark wood; that the dark side will not surrender one to whom, by mutual agreement, it has staked a claim. Driven increasingly mad by his attempts to straddle the two realms, Gravid became convinced that the only way to safeguard the future of the Sith was to hide or destroy the lore that had been amassed through the generations—the texts, holocrons, and treatises—so that the Sith could fashion a new beginning for themselves that would guarantee success." ~ Darth Plagueis

And while Tenebrous's inflated view of himself seems to suggest he's a long way above his Twil'ek master, we don't have anything to back this up other than his extremely arrogant narcissistic worldview which has been proven wrong before - he did think his apprentice to be disgustingly bellow his standards, only to discover just how wrong he was. That and we don't even know if he killed his master in single combat or via assassination, as Plagueis and Sidious did to their masters.

"He had exterminated his doddering Master with his customary efficiency, and had embarked immediately on a decades-spanning quest for an apprentice of his own." ~ The Tenebrous Way

Nothing in that passage states whether or not he killed him in combat or assassination, it's vague. Moreover Tenebrous applauded Plagueis's method of killing him, so it wouldn't be out of character for him to do the same with his master.

"Then for the last time, I call you apprentice. And I applaud your skillful use of surprise and misdirection. Perhaps I was wrong to think you had no stomach for it." ~ Darth Plagueis

And finally, even Tenebrous and Venamis are considerably, if not vastly above Maul and Dooku by feats so scaling Dooku and Maul off of Tenebrous and his master's growth rate is useless.

I'm not going to address Sidious and Plagueis because it's pretty obvious the apprentices are nowhere near Plagueis.

Anyways based on what we know the overall growth rate is completely vague. Bane and Zannah have a marginal difference. Gravid and Gean are vague. We only have Tenebrous's vastly self-inflated opinion of himself which has proven fallible, nor do we even know if he challenged his master in direct combat or assassinated him.

Since the official growth rate is unknown and Dooku and Maul never came close to rivaling Sidious or even Tenebrous, their exact placement is vague and could very well be below Bane and Zannah in power.

Point 2 comparing feats:

With statements and placement being vague we have to turn to a feat comparison. We can scale Bane and Zannah's ability to Dooku and Maul, by looking at situations where both groups were pushed to their limits.

Dooku and Maul have both struggled against large groups of opponents.

Dooku is forced to surrender to 30 pirates.

Dave Filoni : ''I agree that Dooku is incredibly powerful. But the fact remains that if gets into a fight with 30 pirates, yes he might kill 15 of them, but he will get shot and he will go down.''

~The Clone Wars Season One: Dooku Captured Featurette

It's true that Dooku didn't have a lightsaber, but even his peer TCW Maul was forced to run away from the thinned ranks of the same group and even gets tagged with his lightsaber:

TPM Maul musses that 30 Tusken Raiders are too many for him:

"There are at least thirty of them. The are all heading for me...The howling intensifies. The raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in a flicker of an eye flash, but that will just infuriate the others." ~ Star Wars Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Now it's true that Maul was hindered by his injured leg, however just minutes after his encounter he has his first duel with Qui Gon and after some initial difficulty manages to drive him into a retreat and The Wrath of Darth Maul confirms that the leg injury was already closed to healed; it was noted as soon as the Naboo cruiser takes off:

"If Maul admitted he had sustained a leg wound his Master would regard him as weak. But because his leg wound was already almost healed he questioned whether it was even necessary to inform his Master about it" ~ The Wrath Of Darth Maul - page 179

Now how does DoE Bane compare against multiple fodder? Like these two Bane has to be cautious around large numbers of enemies now that he doesn't have his orbalisks:

"A decade earlier he would have eagerly engaged them in physical combat, his body pumped full of adrenaline released by the orbalisks that had covered his flesh. Swept up in a mindless rage, he would have carved a bloody swath through their numbers, hacking and slashing at his helpless enemies while relying on the impenetrable shells of the orbalisks to protect him from their blows.

But the orbalisks were gone now. He was no longer invulnerable to physical attacks, yet he was also no longer a slave to the primal bloodlust that used to overwhelm him. Free from the parasitic infestation, he was able to dispatch his enemies using the Force rather than relying solely on brute strength. Bane extinguished his weapon and stood perfectly still, allowing the swarming horde to close in on him as he gathered his strength. He called upon the power of the temple itself, feeding on it to bolster his own abilities as he created a deadly field around his body. It began as a tight circle, but quickly spread outward until it extended to a radius of ten meters, with the Sith Lord at the center. The air within the circumference of the field suddenly became darker, as if the light from the red sun above had been suddenly dimmed." ~ Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Note that Bane uses an esoteric power that would have been incredibly useful for Maul in his Tusken Raider situation, given their penchant for close quarters combat.

But the best comparison comes from the ambush at his home in Ciutric, one that is used to lowball Bane to no end.

First what Bane was up against. He was going against 20 veteran mercenaries, who had set up sonic detonators at the front door. Plus the Huntress, the future Dark Lord of the Sith Cognus, who would eventually eclipse both Bane and Zannah in power.

This is a huge advantage to the mercenaries. The Huntress is deadly enough to kill Jedi Knight Medd Tandar, in a fairly easy fight without assistance. And she gave Seth Harth serious grief, who had doubts about his ability to win. Seth Harth killed a powerful Sith Lord on Russan, was labeled the most dangerous man in the galaxy by Jedi Master Obba after the supposed extinction of the Sith, carried a Force signature that was considered powerful by Bane's standards when sensed him, and impressed Zannah enough to take him on as an apprentice.

So yeah the Huntress is no joke, if she never became a Sith Lord she would undoubtedly have ranked among the deadliest assassins in the galaxy.

Now, what about Bane's condition when he was ambushed. First, he was noted to be in no condition to fight with Zannah:

"When Bane returned to Ciutric, he was surprised to find Zannah's ship still gone, but he was grateful that she wouldn't be waiting for him back at the mansion. He was in no shape to do battle with her now; he was even too tired to come up with a lie to explain his absence without raising her suspicions." ~ Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

It's a fact that he was hindered here, which obviously didn't help when he was taken completely by surprise when he walked into the front door.

"Naive and inexperienced. Maybe-He froze. Someone else was in the mansion. He could feel the intruders everywhere: hiding around corners in the hallways, crouched on the stairs, ducking behind the furniture, perched on the balcony above. All this flashed through Bane's mind in less than a tenth of a second-just enough time for it to register before the sonic detonators on either side of him went off. Their earsplitting shriek staggered Bane, causing him to stumble forward into the room and away from the door and possible escape. His hands instinctively flew up and clutched at his ears, his travel pack dropping to the floor. And then the enemy fell upon him." ~ Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

They set him up with sonic detonators right by the front door and took advantage of his momentary weakness.

I won't break down the entire fight but needless to say the mercenaries had the advantage of surprise, Bane being in no condition to fight Zannah, an environment in which they can hide and take cover, and the Huntress who is a major threat to Force-sensitives. Moreover, it's made note numerous times that the Huntress and the mercenaries were overmatched and that the senflex - which Bane could have burned away had he known it was in his system, was their only hope:

"Soldiers were firing their stun guns at him again from the stairwell. Bane didn't even bother to strike back at them; he simply dodged their attack by vaulting over the railing and dropping back down to the floor below. The soldiers were nothing to him; it was the Iktotchi he was interested in now. She was the only opponent who posed any real threat. Eliminate her and he could deal with the soldiers at his leisure.

The Iktotchi knew she couldn't beat him. He was too strong. The tricks she had used against the Jedi had slowed him down at first, but now they had no effect at all. The senflax was her only hope of surviving."

"She thought briefly that his paralysis might be a trick, then discarded the notion. The Sith didn't need subterfuge to win the battle; it was obvious he had them overmatched. The only explanation was that Serra's drug had finally worked its magic. According to the instructions she had been given, they had four hours before they needed to administer the next dose."

"The last time they had fought she had bested him; this time he was unarmed and drained from his battle with Zannah. Yet he was still confident he could defeat her. Without the advantage of surprise and twenty mercenaries backing her up, she was no match for him one-on-one. And if she cut him with her poisoned blades again, he'd be ready to burn away the toxin before it overwhelmed his system."

So in effect, Dooku and Maul have been overmatched by foes who are at the very least on par with the one's Bane faced and in Bane's case he only lost because of an unknown agent he could have easily countered if he was more prepared. I would rank Bane above them for this feat alone, but regardless this feat comparison proves Bane is not out of their league.

One more anti-feat for Maul before I move on. If Maul was truly that much above Bane and close to Tenebrous as some have claimed, then he should be capable of blitzing any organic non-Force sensitive, but that isn't the case in TWoDM:

"Up close Maul saw that the objects were razors and that this Togorian was bigger than the others, much bigger" ~ The Wrath of Darth Maul

Togorians are monstrous feline bipeds that can get to 3 meters height and weigh four times as much as a regular man just for reference.

"Maul was irritated by the Togorians' tendency to taunt before striking. He was also eager to leave the freighter, as he expected the other pirates to start the engines at any moment. He whirled in an arc and went for the hulking Togarion's chest. Incredibly the pirate sidestepped the attack(that's one of my favorite moments reading it for the first btw, such an awesome moment of badassery for a one-off extra)." ~ The Wrath of Darth Maul

Anyways not trying to lowball Maul; TPM Maul is one my favorite characters, and it's clear this is an exceptional opponent for a non-Force sensitive, and I would wager he could find the same success against Bane, but they have limits in what they can achieve through physical training. If Maul can't one shot all non-Force sensitives, he isn't coming close to stomping Bane or Zannah, as many in the forums are saying.

Last bit of comparison. Lightning feats.

Quick and simple Bane has better lightning feats than Dooku, which is strong evidence he is more powerful.

"He didn't stay down, however. He sprang back to his feet, simultaneously drawing his lightsaber with his right hand as he sent a blast of lightning out from the fingertips of his left. The violet bolts should have incinerated all four of his targets on the balcony, yet again the strange power interfering with his ability to draw upon the Force hindered his efforts.

Three of the victims were electrocuted, dying before they even had a chance to scream. The fourth, however, managed to throw herself back from the balcony's edge, evading the deadly attack." ~ Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Bane was both exhausted and in no condition to fight Zannah and hindered by the Huntresses Force suppression and he still managed to kill the mercenaries before they even had a chance to scream.

"In rapid succession, Dooku cut down one clone escort, Force-threw Cody down the corridor and against the bulkhead, freed Vos, then blasted everyone in front of him, including Bayons, with Force Lightning. The Chagrian and the four clones went down, writhing in agony." ~ Dark Disciple

Dooku and Vos were in danger so there's no reason to assume he was holding back his power.

To be fair some of the comics show Dooku killing groups of enemies without a scream bubble, but that's a Dooku at full power, Bane did it while massively hindered.

At worst Dooku and Bane are very close in power which is strong evidence he can compete with him and Maul.

That's about it. Just wanted to do a feats comparson and debunk myths about the overrated RoT scaling. So please don't dismiss Bane and Zannah on that basis alone. Their feats are comparable and can totally give Maul and Dooku a run for their money.

Callouts: @dark-sith123: @richard96: @in-sidiousvader: @keencraft: @redheathen: @erkan12: @greysentinel365: @i_like_swords: @darthant66: @xolthol: @emperordmb

Apologies if you don't want to be tagged or aren't interested. Inform me and I won't tag you in the future.

Just skimming this actually caused my ass to flare up with an aggressive cancer. I'll mail the medical bill.

My reaction to most Bane era lowballers.

Not that it's an actual argument.

@kilius: You're comparing Legends to Canon in here. Yes, in Canon Dooku or Maul can't take that much. But in Legends? They would take more than Bane ever could. Remember what RotS Kenobi did in the Legends part of the Novelization when he fought with Grievous's army.

Or Maul single handedly destroyed Black Sun's army, which was way more than 30.

Bane is 1000 years late to compete with Dooku or Maul. Sidious perfectly trained Maul, and Dooku was one of the pinacle swordfighter of the Jedi Order.

OMG, this thread shattered my world view

I'm not going to ask if you are being serious or sarcastic.

@erkan12:

Remember what RotS Kenobi did in the Legends part of the Novelization when he fought with Grievous's army.

He didn't actually beat the army; he relied on his Soresu guard until he got close enough to Grievous to discourage the army. Doesn't mean he can actually mean he can take the whole army.

Or Maul single handedly destroyed Black Sun's army, which was way more than 30.

Fair enough. I actually skimmed through the comic and counted exactly 32 soldiers in one scan.

Chalk it up to Maul's injured leg or inconsistencies in the mediums I guess.

Bane is 1000 years late to compete with Dooku or Maul. Sidious perfectly trained Maul, and Dooku was one of the pinacle swordfighter of the Jedi Order.

Yet their maximum effort feats are comparable.

@kilius: Well, this is a really interresting posts. Thank you for tagging me here. I think that is a pretty strong argumentation for your theory (which nearly convince me) but I think that lots of people will disagree with it. I hope to see an constructed discussion about this.

Neither is deliberately taking several quotes out of context or outright lowballing, neither of which BTW, was ever the basis for putting Maul and Dooku above Bane. You're acting like bringing a flamethrower to a water gun fight is how you fight fire with fire.

Thanks.

Yeah, that's one of the problems with CV these days. Most just give one-word answers or leave insults(not that I can't appreciate a good jab, but a substantive refutation to go with it would be nice). I miss the SithMaster, even though I disagreed with him a lot at least he went to great lengths to explain himself.

As I've seen from you in the Top Force User Tournament you are definitely an exception and I look forward to seeing more from you.

You're about 5-10 years late for the riveting discussion era of Star Wars debating. We are now in the post-apocalyptic era.

Tell you what, if you can explain why my post is wrong, I'll concede the point.

And yes I've seen plenty, even you argue Maul and Dooku being apprenticed to Sidious automatically puts him above Bane, by sheer principle alone.

Well this is pathetic.

Point 1. The Rule of Two growth rate was minimal.

Your ignoring the fact that Zannah would have grown in power throughout her training of Cognus. Cognus would have then had to match her and beat her. And so it would have continued down the line. So in fact there are massive leaps between each generation.

That not even accounting for the transfer of power that takes place after a masters death.

According to Darth Sidious, the last Banite master, Bane's power passed from master to apprentice throughout the generations:

While it would be a straightforward and simple interpretation to conclude this conferring of power happened during the apprentice's training - after all, for the apprentices to equal and defeat their masters they would have had to have Bane's power - the source material itself implies something different. We can witness this phenomenon of Bane's power being transferred to the apprentice at the time of their masters' deaths on three separate occasions:

Even from a distance, she had sensed an incredible burst of power - the same power she had sensed in Bane himself. She didn’t know how it was possible, but it almost seemed as if the Dark Lord’s life energy had burst free of his physical form in one glorious instant, releasing itself upon the material world. Then, as suddenly as she had sensed the presence, it was gone, vanishing like an animal gone to ground.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Awake in the oppressive heat, he replayed the events of the previous day, still somewhat astounded by what he had done. The Force had whispered to him: Your moment has come. Claim your stake to the dark side. Act now and be done with this. But the Force had only advised; it had neither dictated his actions nor guided his hands. That had been his doing alone. He knew from his travels with and without Tenebrous that he wasn't the galaxy's sole practitioner of the dark side - nor Sith for that matter, since the galaxy was rife with pretenders - but he was now the only Sith Lord descended from the Bane line. A true Sith, and that realization roused the raw power coiled inside him.

[…]

With 11-4D deep in processing mode, Plagueis withdrew a vial of his own blood and subjected it to analysis. Despite the recent amplification of his powers he sensed that his midi-chlorian count had not increased since the events on Bal'demnic, and the analysis of the blood sample confirmed his suspicions.

Darth Plagueis

A tremor took hold of the planet.

Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world's core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake's epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn't constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification - a gravitic shift.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.

[…]

The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.

Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.

Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?

Sidious had never learned how Plagueis's own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis's hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?

Darth Plagueis

While this sort of apotheosis is not confirmed to have happened every time, these three instances nonetheless do lend credence to the idea that Bane's power would have seeped forth from the Master to their pupil at their deaths - to confer the mantle of Dark Lord. Once is a fluke and twice is a coincidence but thrice is a pattern; it's not like the quote specifies Bane's power was passed down during the training either - in fact there's zero evidence of this. Even the catchphrase of the Rule of Two implies the opposite: "Always two there are: a master and an apprentice. One to embody the power, the other to crave it." Perhaps even more literally than symbolically, the master does indeed embody the power; the power of the power of the Sith Master; the power of Darth Bane. When the master dies at the hands of the apprentice, the latter the becomes the embodiment of that power by having it transferred to them, after which they select their own apprentice to crave it in turn, and the cycle continues.

So with this, we have an obvious method of quantification: the apprentice already equals their master during their fateful confrontation, and after the deed is done they gain a Bane of power (Bane being a unit of measurement I devised to more conveniently ascertain the Banite Sith's power; the definition of the unit being that a single Bane is equivalent to the power wielded by Darth Bane at his peak in Dynasty of Evil) on top of their current level. This would have happened every time, to the result of, at the bare minimum, Tenebrous having 29 Banes, Plagueis 30, and Sidious 31 Banes of power at their command. The method is solid, simple, and exact.

As laid out here in Az's blog.

Dooku is forced to surrender to 30 pirates.

Are you really using Canon to make this point. I assume the fact that Canon vastly underplays force users in comparison to Legends completely slipping your mind?

Let me make this simple for you,

Canon: Dooku can't beat thirty pirates (despite tooling about that many Pikes with no problem in later seasons, but we try to ignore Filoni's idiocy with statements like this.)

Legends: Coleman freaking Trebor can cut through battalions of droids with no issue.

See the issue here? If you wanted this blog to hold weight in any way you would have had the forethought to compare Legends to Legends. But you didn't, and therefore it reeks of bias and dishonesty. Speaking of which, let's keep going.

TPM Maul musses that 30 Tusken Raiders are too many for him:

I can only assume you haven't read the actual journal.

1. Maul was exhausted.

2. Maul was injured

3. It's not like Maul hasn't butchered his way through the entirety of the Black Sun when healthy? Oh wait.

4. If you read past the line your bias made you focus on, you would have seen this

Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

I never run away from a battle. But this one will tax me, and my strength is needed for the Jedi. If my Master hears I have been wounded, he will be furious.

Maul Journal

So Maul, even when injured and exhausted admits he can win. But surmises that he is better off saving his strength for the Jedi later.

Anyways not trying to lowball Maul; TPM Maul is one my favorite characters, and it's clear this is an exceptional opponent for a non-Force sensitive, but they have limits in what they can achieve through physical training. If Maul can't one shot all non-Force sensitives, he isn't coming close to stomping Bane or Zannah as many in the forums are saying.

Ignoring the fact that Maul wasn't trying nor going all out and that Maul does one shot the pirate a few lines later.

Quick and simple Bane has better lightning feats than Dooku, which is strong evidence he is more powerful.

Canon to Legends comparison again. Also Dooku doesn't incinerate people with lightning because he doesn't need to. Dooku is all about efficiency. If he can kill you with a short burst why would he bother incinerating you?

That's about it. Just wanted to do a feats comparson and debunk myths about the overrated RoT scaling. So please don't dismiss Bane and Zannah on that basis alone. Their feats are comparable and can totally give Maul and Dooku a run for their money.

You did nothing of the sort. You're parroting myths yourself that have been debunked years ago. I know because I was there when they were commonplace and there's a reason they're not anymore. We've moved past them. It's long been determined that they hold no weight.

But I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears. And no feat comparisons between Dooku, Maul and Bane don't end well for Bane. At all.

When I first read the title, I swear I saw "how Bane isn't outclassed by Sidious"

I nearly had a heart attack

@dark-sith123: To be fair this isn't much better.

Yeah NGL using a time where Maul didn't have enough time to kill some tuskans as evidence that he can't got a chuckle out of me. Also the idea that there are no sizeable power leaps in the RoT, even though Zannah stalemated Bane with half the training time...

Honestly Kilius, don't provoke anyone worth their salt to really dissect this thing. It would be a most gruesome of deaths for a blog.

@greysentinel365:

Your ignoring the fact that Zannah would have grown in power throughout her training of Cognus.

Based on?

Cognus would have then had to match her and beat her.

Doesn't prove Zannah grew in power, it's speculative.

That not even accounting for the transfer of power that takes place after a masters death.

As laid out here in Az's blog.

I'll just copy and paste my comment from that blog:

Are you really using Canon to make this point. I assume the fact that Canon vastly underplays force users in comparison to Legends completely slipping your mind?

Let me make this simple for you,

Canon: Dooku can't beat thirty pirates (despite tooling about that many Pikes with no problem in later seasons, but we try to ignore Filoni's idiocy with statements like this.

TCW is Legends too, unfortunately. And no it's not just TCW, there are plenty of Legends media(the Jedi Apprentice series and Jedi Council Acts of War comes to mind) where even Qui Gon, Maul, and Mace Windu level Jedi/Sith aren't treated as one man army's - just super-commandos. It's only stuff like TOR, OCW, and TFU that vastly overinflates a Force users power. The Bane trilogy actually scales the power scale back to the former from my view - Bane has to be cautious about overcommitting on Prakith.

Legends: Coleman freaking Trebor can cut through battalions of droids with no issue.

He sliced through the waves. It didn't say cut them all down. It's vague enough to mean he could have just cut through enough to breach their lines to get to Dooku. Anyways it's clear in all sources the 200 Jedi were vastly overmatched by the sheer numbers.

I can only assume you haven't read the actual journal.

I both have and read the Journal. I'm a fan of both TPM Maul and Watson.

1. Maul was exhausted.

"Impossible as it may seem, I have made an error. Out of impatience or a residue of exhaustion who can say." ~ page 63

A residue of exhaustion. Bane was completely exhausted in his example. It's still valid for comparison purposes.

2. Maul was injured

I already noted that. He's still in good enough condition to send Qui Gon into a retreat. Maul himself described the wound as barely perceptible, at this stage, as it was already almost healed.

3. It's not like Maul hasn't butchered his way through the entirety of the Black Sun when healthy? Oh wait.

It's a fair point, as I conceded in my reply to Erkan. Still, it's not like he took them all at once. He's taking them in groups piecemeal, though to be fair I counted 32 in one scan.

Maybe the Tusken Raider argument wasn't my best point, but the main purpose of this blog is to demonstrate that Maul and Dooku aren't vastly above Bane and Zannah. Bane outmatching the mercenaries and losing only due to circumstance is a good match for taking on 30+ minions.

4. If you read past the line your bias made you focus on, you would have seen this

Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

I never run away from a battle. But this one will tax me, and my strength is needed for the Jedi. If my Master hears I have been wounded, he will be furious.

Eh, he didn't say he could win, but in retrospect, fair point. I do think Maul and Bane are the same general range and doesn't make sense for either them to lose to 30 raiders.

Very good, point conceded. See I'm reasonable. Just give me the correct counter response and everyone's happy.

Ignoring the fact that Maul wasn't trying nor going all out and that Maul does one shot the pirate a few lines later.

Where the heck was it implied he wasn't going all out? He was frustrated they were getting in way of his mission, that they were looting and could potentially damage his ship. The passage I cited even makes note that he was anxious to get this over and done. I conceded the last point now it's your turn.

Yes, I'm aware. I'm just saying, if a non-Force-sensitive is capable of not getting one shot, at least once, then it shows that Maul isn't considerably above Bane. Their limitations are in the same general range. People often lowball Bane for having trouble with pre-prime Cognus, a far more dangerous foe than the pirate.

Canon to Legends comparison again. Also Dooku doesn't incinerate people with lightning because he doesn't need to. Dooku is all about efficiency. If he can kill you with a short burst why would he bother incinerating you?

I didn't argue for inceration; I have DoE Bane bellow RoT Bane in power, though Emporerdmb, and ironically ILS disagrees with me.

Bane is about efficiency too. I argued the hindered feat was better than what Dooku showed or at least comparable to what Dooku has done at full health.

We've moved past them. It's long been determined that they hold no weight.

Is there a SW debaters guild I'm not aware of, making these determinations?

LOL

Seriously after I argued extensively in the lightsaber only thread against Bane?

@i_like_swords:

Honestly Kilius, don't provoke anyone worth their salt to really dissect this thing. It would be a most gruesome of deaths for a blog.

Then I'll have a good laugh at myself and appreciate the input if it's convincing. If I learn something new it's a gain.

I've changed my position on several things over my brief year and a half tenure, such as Dooku vs Mace, and Anakin's strength relative to Grievous, both of which I was passionate about.

Would you message me about how you've changed your pov? I'm just curious. Nothing more-no debate.

As to this RT, it's obvious you put a lot of effort into it, so good job on that front. I disagree with your overall statement, though, but I do think that Bane is underclassed.

@richard96:

Thanks for the response but believe it or not my interest in this has actually waned. Guess that's what happens when you spend so much time debating fictional characters, you realize it's fictional and power scale depends on the situation and circumstances of the plot.

And no offense taken lol. I've called Az's blog trash openly. Blunt honestly doesn't offend me, just bitterness.

For Mace and Dooku I used to hold them as equals and subscribed to the notion Mace was amped in his duel with Palpatine, as Silver argued in his blog. Now, however, I don't think that's quite right.

Going by the movie and statements from Lucas there's nothing to suggest Mace was amped.

While it's true that there are a lot of statements putting Dooku and Mace as equals and the fact that Dooku beat Mace in sparring, it's pretty clear as of RotS Mace has surpassed Dooku, as it's made pretty clear Dooku has no chance of taking Sidious or Yoda, while Mace did in fact compete with Palpatine.

The out of universe reason for Dooku and Mace's parity Pre-RotS(by that I mean before the release of the movie) is that the EU writers didn't seem to know that Mace was supposed to be equal to Sidious and Yoda. It's kind of like the Prelude to the Rebellion comics where Ki Adi Mundi was married and had children despite AotC saying Jedi aren't allowed to have families.

So basically as of now, in both Disney canon and Legends Mace should be considered above Dooku, at least once we get to RotS.

As for Anakin and Grievous.

When I first joined CV I used to believe Anakin was physically stronger than Grievous. The reason being that Dooku can handle Grievous's strikes, which Mace in LoE described "as forceful as any he had ever been forced to counter", but Anakin in the RotS Novel absolutely pummeled him with his strength. I mean it makes sense that Anakin should be stronger based on that.

Now, however, I see the RotS Novel depiction as a major outlier. Outside of Dooku, Grievous has way better strength feats than Anakin, such as breaking a phrik lightsaber resistant electrostaff with his strength alone, ragdolling Kenobi with effortless strength in H2H whereas Kenobi can compete with Anakin in H2H, and crushing skulls out of simple irritation.

I mean really outside of the Novel Dooku has never really been weak to strength and going by the movie itself Dooku never really seemed to have an issue with Anakin's strength, he even manages to break a combined blade lock between Anakin and Obi Wan:

3: Gave some issues to yoda.

Not really.

Blue Force lightning arced out of his fingertips and toward the tiny Jedi. The assault was relentless, yet Yoda stood unfazed.

Attack of the Clones Movie Storybook

Count Dooku hurls Force-Lightning at Yoda, but Yoda easily deflects the attack.Attack of the Clones Photo Comic

On Geonosis, Yoda's easy parrying and, indeed, handling of the Sith lightning Dooku hurled at him had come as a surprise.Labyrinth of Evil

There are many other quotes regarding the rest of the fight, but since we're talking Lightning here, this should suffice.

Ragdolled ROTS kenobi,

In a moment of opportunity that was only created by "cheating", as outlined in the RotS novel.

I do agree that some of the points in this blog have quite a number of flaws, some are reaching, and yes, I do agree that Dooku significantly outstrips Bane in Force power, but let's not overblow or exaggerate Dooku (or Maul)'s accomplishments.

@kilius: If your opinion on Anakin vs Dooku in ROTS hasn't changed can you write a rebuttal to the post I wrote earlier and PM me so we can continue the debate?

@dark-sith123:

In all honesty, I'm rethinking my position. I still think Bane can match Dooku and Maul, but my arguments regarding the pirates and Tuskens weren't the best.

Ragdolled ROTS kenobi,

In a moment of opportunity that was only created by "cheating", as outlined in the RotS novel.

I dispute that. And Lol at 'cheating' when it was two against one and not a fair fight to begin with. One extra Jedi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Two Super Battle droids

Here's how it was written in the script which both novelizations took inspiration from:

ANAKIN and COUNT DOOKU move up the stairs. As they reach the upper landing of the General's Quarters, ANAKIN leaps over COUNT DOOKU. OBI-WAN reaches the top of the stairs, destroying TWO SUPER BATTLE DROIDS. COUNT DOOKU holds OBI-WAN in the air using the Force as he turns and kicks ANAKIN out of frame. OBI-WAN is choking.

ANAKIN hits the archway.

DOOKU sends OBI-WAN flying. The Jedi tumbles to the lower level unconscious. COUNT DOOKU spins around again and, using the Force, causes a section of the balcony to drop onto OBI-WAN. ANAKIN spins and kicks COUNT DOOKU, sending him over the balcony. ANAKIN Jumps, following him down to the main floor. COUNT DOOKU and ANAKIN continue the fight.

This is what Wrede and Stover had to go off of when they wrote their novelizations. It paints the picture that Kenobi was focused on getting to Dooku and Dooku took advantage of an opening in Kenobi's defense.

In the SN Dooku doesn't choke him at all - he kicks him in the moment Kenobi was focused on the droids.

Here's how the JN portrays it:

Climbing up the stairs it cut down the two of the super battle droids. He can't fight in two directions at once, Obi Wan thought, if we can- Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.

In the JN you can say Kenobi was taken by surprise but the problem is that it doesn't line up with the final cut of the Film where Kenboi was fully prepared and facing Dooku in combat.

This Kenobi's position, he's fully prepared, he's ready to strike at Dooku, and the droids were already destroyed. How is Dooku's Force-choking of Kenobi any more circumstantial than this?:

Exact same position as the image above, no reason for Kenobi to have his Force defenses down unless you want to argue the same is the case for Maul.

Not only that but they were locking blades:

Unless Kenobi is pathetically bad at raising a Force barrier there really isn't any excuse for him not to be ready for the attack. Particularly when Dooku had to split his attention and Force reserves on Anakin.

@arkhamasylum3:

When I have the time sure I'll post you a PM.

@kilius: Ok thanks.

@arkhamasylum3:

I'd actually rather post here, hope you don't mind. Bold is yours italics are mine.

I have Jedi Knight Anakin as approximately equal to Kenobi and bellow Dooku without the dark side amp. Yes, I know he was seriously hard pressing Dooku in the novel, but, and I don't mean to pull a Lord Tenebrous but this is what I feel, from my perspective of the movie Dooku seemed to be holding his own against both of them just fine. Anakin's strength didn't really seem to be straining him as depicted in the novel; in fact, Dooku actually breaks free of a combined blade lock of Kenobi and Anakin, which tells me his dark side augmentation is superior to Anakin's strength

This would be fine if not for the fact there is no active contradiction in the movie so there is no reason to discredit the Novel's account. The fight starts off very much like in the novel with all 3 of them not really taking it seriously and Kenobi perfectly defending against Dooku's attacks and stonewalling him. Then like in the novel Dooku ragdolls Kenobi (because he realises he's completely outmatched and neither of them are taking him seriously and have perfectly defended against him) and then of course Anakin goes into a frenzy of attacks and they both stop holding back. This is what follows:

Now the fact of the matter is the movie in no way displays a contradictory account to the novel. If Anakin was a peer to Kenobi then Kenobi wouldn't be the one being consistantly ragdolled and Anakin wouldn't be the one pressing Dooku. You see if Dooku like you say was indeed unaffected by Anakin's strength he wouldn't be retreating up the stairs when he has an ample opportunity to take Anakin out with dare I say it the high ground and a superior position. This unfortunately for you lines up with the novels account that Dooku was indeed hard pressed by Anakin.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Both the novelization and the movie itself show Dooku losing the fight to Skywalker bady and retreating up the stairs for leverage.

Now onto the next part of your post:

You can see Anakin along with Kenobi is actually staggered by this. It's that along with Dooku contending with Grievous's strikes, which Mace has described "as forceful as any he had been forced to counter" without any noticeable strain; at least nowhere near as much as he was in the RotS Novel against Anakin; not saying Grievous can't ever make Dooku work for it.

I do actually agree with you here that Dooku's weakness against strength is a myth and has no basis in fact. The only arguments for it are Dooku buckling under Anakin's strength which can just be a feat for Anakin and also being staggered by Savage Oppress but Savage is a monster who's brought down just about everyone with his strength so again not really an anti feat.

Is the reason why I discount the Novel depiction of Dooku buckling under Anakin's strength, when he did just fine in the Film before the dark side amp,

I have to disagree with you here. The only reason we don't see Dooku buckling under Anakin's strength too much is because that part is mostly off screen. Dooku managing to get a lucky shot on Anakin once in the fight does not mean he is even remotely comparable to him.

Honestly, I have no issue using feats from the novelizations that didn't happen in the film, even if they contradict what happened onscreen. I have no issue, for instance, counting Kenobi's stonewalling feat because I consider that well within his abilities, even though we didn't see anything like that onscreen.

The problem with Dooku buckling under Anakin's strength is that it's contradicted by several instances in the Film. I mean yes Anakin was driving Dooku back, and I consider it legitimate because even their AotC selves were capable of doing this, albeit briefly. But if Dooku was as fatigued and near close to spent as the novel depicts you expect to see a sign of it in Lee's facial expression. Don't get me wrong Dooku was tired, as supported by the script, but so was Obi-Wan.

As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry. ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force. ~ RotS Script

This is before Anakin drives Dooku up the stairs for reference. It's just general fatigue from fighting long battles, otherwise why make note of Kenobi's fatigue?

The part of Anakin's strength seriously draining Dooku, just seems to me Stover taking liberties and should only be considered C-Canon.

I mean what about the blade lock I imaged of Dooku breaking free of Kenobi and Anakin's combined blade lock? Especially if we go by the novel's depiction of Dooku being close to total exhaustion. And the blade lock Dooku and Anakin were evenly matched in, the gif I showed?

It seems to me that Lucas intended for Dooku to seem physically stronger with his dark side augmentation until Anakin is partially enraged, hence them evenly blade locking, then when Dooku's dun moch worked too well, Anakin cuts loose and finally shoves him back, thus signifying the tide has truly turned in Anakin's favor.

2:28 where Anakin shoves Dooku back.

and against Grievous who should be at least as strong and honestly should be stronger than Jedi Knight Anakin.

Why exactly do you think Grievous should be just as strong? Anakin is a young Jedi who is the most powerful Jedi of his time (minus Yoda maybe) which means he should be insanely strong as amping an already exceptionally physically capable human should make him far stronger than any Jedi on the council. Anakin being incredibly physically strong and being capable of stomping Dooku makes sense and is supported by numerous canon sources. Are you really trying to argue against Director's intent? Lucas line edited the novel and his intent is on full display there.

Anakin was intended by Lucas to be the most powerful Jedi a notion which is supported by numerous sources and his fight with Dooku.

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived.

Credit: The making of Revenge of the Sith

"Fully defeated by just anyone, the dark side cannot be, but only by the Chosen One. And who might be this Jedi? Know I do not, but not yet born is he or she. This much, sense I can. A vessel of pure Force the Chosen One will be, more powerful than any Jedi in history."

Credit: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Even after all these months, she couldn't make herself entirely believe that actual Jedi blood ran in her veins-not only Jedi blood, but the blood of arguably the most powerful Jedi in history.

Credit: Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor

Because feats contradict it, even in the movie.

Outside of Dooku, Grievous has way better strength feats than Anakin, such as breaking a phrik lightsaber resistant electrostaff with his strength alone, ragdolling Kenobi with effortless strength in H2H whereas Kenobi can compete with Anakin in H2H, and crushing skulls out of simple irritation.

^^^I know this very well. Apologies, but I have yet to read your last reply to me on this thread. I'll read it by tomorrow and respond.