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    The "galaxy far, far away" in which the Star Wars films and related works take place.

    Was Dooku's commentary simply meant to scold Grievous and not necessarily be accurate or did he truly believe what he said?

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    killbilly

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    killbilly  Moderator

    Poll Was Dooku's commentary simply meant to scold Grievous and not necessarily be accurate or did he truly believe what he said? (18 votes)

    Dooku's previous thoughts are his true beliefs on the matter 56%
    After seeing Grievous fight his magnaguard Dooku changed his mind about Grievous's capabilities 44%

    In the novel "Labyrinth of Evil" Dooku privately thinks to himself that Grievous may be beyond any Jedi based on Grievous's performance against him in their spars:

    Grievous had been a delight to train, as well. No need to coax him to release his anger and rage, as Dooku had been forced to do during the training of his so-called Dark Jedi disciples. The Geonosians had arranged for Grievous to be nothing but anger and rage. And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him.

    Later, Dooku sees Grievous dueling his magnaguards and is angered by how rote his responses are. As a result, he scolds Grievous and tells him that he pities him should he face a member of the Jedi Council:

    Grievous and his guards were dancing. Going through their programmed motions. An Ataro attack answered by Shii-Cho; Soresu answered by Lus-ma... Dooku couldn't suffer another moment of it.

    "No, no, stop, stop," he yelled, coming to his feet and striding to the middle of the training circle, his arms extended to both sides. When he was certain that he had their attention, he swung to Grievous.

    "Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters."

    Did Dooku's opinion on Grievous change so drastically or did he perhaps not fully mean what he said to Grievous? Interested in hearing the community's thoughts.

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    killbilly

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    Greysentinel365

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    #2  Edited By Greysentinel365

    Considering the Council and their peers are maybe two dozen Jedi out of thousands, I fail to see how Dooku is saying anything remotely contradictory here.

    All but a few is a perfectly accurate assessment.

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    killbilly

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    #3  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

    @greysentinel365 said:

    Considering the Council and their piers are maybe two dozen Jedi out of thousands, I fail to see how Dooku is saying anything remotely contradictory here.

    Dooku states that he is not sure if any Jedi would be capable of defeating Grievous and then states that he would "pity" Grievous were he to face ANY member of the Council.

    Both views cannot be true simultaneously.

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    BoutaTakeAnL

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    He most definitely meant it, as it is factual. Realistically, Grievous surpasses every Sith and Jedi due to his mechanical augmentations, but he does have that weakness being susceptible to the force. Obviously seeking Grievous's potential, Dooku was most likely psyching Grievous up. In all honestly, Dooku is too Dooku to lie or comfort, and he's too smart to misjudge like that.

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    killbilly

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    #5  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

    @boutatakeanl: That and one of the quotes is Dooku's personal thoughts on the matter that he's thinking to himself meaning he has no reason to lie there.

    The other is something Dooku is telling Grievous after he's grown angry/annoyed.

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    GangOrca

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    #6  Edited By GangOrca

    I wouldn't look too hard into it. This just means almost any Jedi would fall to Grievous except the top ones (Jedi Council).

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    killbilly

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    #7  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

    @gangorca said:

    I wouldn't look too hard into it. This just means almost any Jedi would fall to Grievous except the top ones (Jedi Council).

    Well, it's relevant insofar as the two positions can't be true simultaneously. I'm simply wondering if people believe Dooku's statement to Grievous was something he truly believed or if they believe he was using it to taunt/motivate the cyborg.

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    takenstew22

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    #8 takenstew22  Moderator

    Why do people keep tagging me to these? I'm not really too much of a Star Wars guy.

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    killbilly

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    #9  Edited By killbilly  Moderator
    @takenstew22 said:

    Why do people keep tagging me to these? I'm not really too much of a Star Wars guy.

    Ah, I pulled up an old list of tags I found on a SW thread and your name was on there. Sorry about that.

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    takenstew22

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    #10 takenstew22  Moderator
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    citgo

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    #11  Edited By citgo

    Maybe Dooku was delighted wit Grievous's development which made him think to himself "Jedi" as in any regular Jedi knight or padawans... bcuz he does later specifically mention Council "Masters" yes the ones on the "Council" are Jedi too, but he specifically says "Masters" this time, or maybe it was to motivate Grievous more...

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    Lord_Tenebrous

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    #13  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

    I'll attribute the creation of this thread to genuine curiosity rather than spite.

    Full context of both passages, for those who are unaware:

    The general was not accustomed to losing in battle. Even when a general among his own species, he had suffered few defeats. That was orginally what had brought him to the attention of Sidious. After the Sith Lord had expressed interest in Grievous to Dooku, Dooku, in turn, had expressed interest in Grievous to Chairman San Hill, of the InterGalactic Banking Clan.

    Poor Grievous, Dooku thought. Pitiful creature...

    During the Huk War, and later, while in the employ of the IBC, Grievous had survived numerous attempts on his life, so an assassination attempt was ruled out almost immediately. Hill himself had come up with the idea of a shuttle crash, though that, too, presented risks.

    What if Grievous should actually die in the crash?

    Then the Separatists would simply have to look elsewhere for a commander, Dooku had told Hill. But Grievous had survived—and only too well. In fact, most of the life-threatening injuries he sustained had occurred after he had been pulled from the flaming shuttle wreck, and with great calculation.

    When at last he had agreed to be rebuilt, promises were made that no critical alterations would be made to his mind. But the Geonosians had ways of modifying the mind without a patient ever being aware that he had been tampered with. Grievous certainly believed that he had always been the cold-blooded conqueror he was now, when in truth his cruelty and prowess owed much to his rebuilding.

    Sidious and Dooku couldn’t have been more pleased with the result. Dooku, especially, since he had no interest in commanding an army of droids, and already had his hands full nursemaiding the likes of Nute Gunray, Shu Mai, and the hive-minded others who eventually would form the Council of Separatists.

    Grievous had been a delight to train, as well. No need to coax him to release his anger and rage, as Dooku had been forced to do during the training of his so-called Dark Jedi disciples. The Geonosians had arranged for Grievous to be nothing but anger and rage. And as to the general’s combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.

    But then, Dooku had kept some secrets to himself.

    Just in case.

    Manipulation of the sort that had gone into the transformation of Grievous went to the heart of what it meant to be a Sith -- if, indeed, the words heart and Sith could be used together. The essence of the dark side lay in a willingness to use any means possible to arrive at a desired end -- which, in the case of Lord Sidious, meant a galaxy brought under the dominion of a single, brilliant mind.

    In a forward hold of Grievous’s flagship, Dooku watched the cyborg general duel with his elite MagnaGuards, three of his trophy lightsabers in constant motion, parrying thrusts of the guards’ pulse-weaponed staffs, slicing the recycled air a hairbreadth from the expressionless faces of his opponents, incapacitating arm and leg servos when he could.

    Grievous was a force to be reckoned with, to be sure, but Dooku deplored his habit of collecting lightsabers. It had merely bothered him that Ventress and lesser combatants such as the bounty hunter Aurra Sing had adopted the foul practice. Grievous’s habit struck Dooku as the worst kind of profanation. Even so, he was not about to discourage the practice. The more Jedi that could be dispatched, the better.

    The only aspect of Grievous’s technique that vexed him more was the general’s penchant for using four blades. Two was bad enough -- in the form they had been used by Darth Maul, or in Anakin Skywalker’s sad attempt to employ the technique on Geonosis. But three?What was to become of elegance and gallantry if a duelist couldn’t make do with one blade?

    Well, what had become of elegance and gallantry, in any case?

    Grievous was fast, and so were his IG 100-series sparring partners. They had the advantage of size and brute strength. They executed moves almost faster than the human eye could follow. Their thrusts and lunges demonstrated a singular lack of hesitancy. Once committed to a maneuver, they never faltered. They never stopped to recalculate their actions. Their weapons went exactly where they meant them to go. And they always aimed for points beyond their opponents in order to slice clear through.

    Dooku had taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku’s coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling -- in the Jedi arts -- made them lethal opponents. But they were not invincible, not even Grievous, because they could be confused by unpredictability, and they had no understanding of finesse. A player of dejarik could memorize all the classic openings and countermoves, and still not be a master of the game. Defeat often came at the hands of less experienced players who knew nothing about the traditional strategies. A professional fighter, a combat artist, could be defeated by a cantina brawler who knew nothing about form but everything about ending a conflict quickly, without a thought to winning gracefully or elegantly. Enslavement to form opened one to defeat by the unforeseen.

    This was often the failing of trained duelists, and it would be the failing of the Jedi Order. Given that elegance, gallantry, and enchantment were gone from the galaxy, it was only fitting that the Order’s days were numbered; that the fire that had been the Jedi was guttering and dying out. As with the corrupt Republic itself, the Order’s time had come. The noble Jedi, bound to the Force, sworn to uphold peace and justice, were seldom seen as heroes or saviors any longer, but more often as bullies or mobsters.

    Still, it was sad that it had fallen to Dooku to help usher them out. The conversation he had had with Yoda on dreary Vjun was never far from his thoughts these days. For all his flair with words, all his Force-given personal power, Yoda was nothing more than an old one, unwilling to embrace anything new, indisposed to see any way but his own. Yet how terrible not simply to fade away but to expire in full knowledge that the galaxy had tipped inexorably and at long last to the dark side, to the Sith, and might remain so for as long as the Jedi themselves had ruled.

    Grievous and his guards were dancing. Going through their programmed motions. An Ataro attack answered by Shii-Cho; Soresu answered by Lus-ma... Dooku couldn’t suffer another moment of it.

    “No, no, stop, stop,” he yelled, coming to his feet and striding to the middle of the training circle, his arms extended to both sides. When he was certain that he had their attention, he swung to Grievous.

    “Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters.”

    He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air -- a Makashi flourish. “Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?”

    He flicked his blade quickly, ridding two of the guards of their staffs, then placing the glowing tip a millimeter from Grievous’s death-helmeted visage. “Finesse. Artfulness. Economy. Otherwise, my friend, I fear that you will end up beyond the repair of even the Geonosians. Do you take my meaning?”

    His vertically slit eyes unfathomable, Grievous nodded. "I take your meaning, my lord.”

    Dooku withdrew his blade. “Again, then. With some measure of polish, if I’m not asking for too much.”

    Dooku seated himself and watched them go at it. Hopeless, he thought.

    But he knew that he was partly to blame. He had made the same mistake with Grievous that he had made with Ventress, by allowing her to fill herself with hate, as if hate could substitute for dispassion. Even the most hateful could be defeated. Even the most angry. There should be no emotion in killing, no self, only the act. When he should have been helping Ventress rid herself of self, he had instead permitted her to grow impassioned. Sidious had once confessed that he had erred similarly in his training of Darth Maul. Ventress and Maul had been driven by a desire to excel -- to be the best -- instead of merely allowing themselves to be pure instruments of the dark side. The Jedi knew this about the Force: that the best of them were nothing more than instruments.

    The former passage is from chapter 22. The latter is from chapter 32.

    I, for one, will side with Dooku's most updated, fresh & recent assessment of Grievous' abilities -- especially considering that Dooku had just watched Grievous fight, and continued to do so, yet mused that Grievous still hadn't learned. "Hopeless".

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    deactivated-61215780523f9

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    I dunno tbh

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    killbilly

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    #16  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

    @silentnightz said:

    Seems pretty straight forward to me: Dooku thinks Grievous can defeat the average Jedi; Grievous has defeated many Jedi. Jedi Council members are not average; Grievous could handle few of them. That's that.

    The difference between the statements is that Dooku personally believes Grievous's abilities are such that he doubts whether or not any Jedi could defeat him where as his statement to Grievous after he grows annoyed with him is that he would "pity" him should he face a member of the Council. This is despite Grievous having faced numerous Council level opponents prior to this point.

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    killbilly

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    #18  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

    @silentnightz said:
    @killbilly said:

    The difference between the statements is that in Dooku's private thoughts, he believes Grievous's abilities are such that he doubts if any Jedi could defeat him where as his statement to Grievous after he grows annoyed with him is that he would "pity" him should he face a member of the Council.

    Well, even in his private thoughts, Dooku only states that few Jedi could best Grievous. As someone else has pointed out, there are 100-1000s of Jedi; 'few' could be a dozen. Dooku knows which Jedi even he would not wish to face, and they're all better than Grievous.

    As for the 'pity', Dooku does say this because he is annoyed but why is he annoyed? Grievous' moves were so terribly predictable that he'd grown tired of seeing it. Any experienced Jedi would catch on and Council members wouldn't waste the time, that's why pity. For all his skill, Grievous' robotic-auto responses would pale in comparison to the adaptability of a master duelist.....which was kinda the case lol

    "Few if any" is what he said meaning he believes there MAY be Jedi that could defeat him, but he is not sure on that.

    That's a far cry from pitying Grievous should he face ANY ( even the weakest ) of the Jedi Council.

    Grievous's moves in actual battle were randomized:

    "a different angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs" - Revenge of the Sith.

    It's likely that Grievous wasn't taking the fight against his magnaguards all that seriously and was falling into rote/pre-programmed responses as a result. Something that annoyed Dooku.

    When was it the case? In the same novel, Grievous fights evenly with Windu whilst hindered in the very same novel.

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    DirtyLuna

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    Obviously seeking Grievous's potential, Dooku was most likely psyching Grievous up. In all honestly, Dooku is too Dooku to lie or comfort, and he's too smart to misjudge like that.

    Agreed. Especially given the fact that Grievous already matched and or defeated council members before that scene.

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    BoutaTakeAnL

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    @boutatakeanl: That and one of the quotes is Dooku's personal thoughts on the matter that he's thinking to himself meaning he has no reason to lie there.

    The other is something Dooku is telling Grievous after he's grown angry/annoyed.

    Agreed

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    BoutaTakeAnL

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    @boutatakeanl said:

    Obviously seeking Grievous's potential, Dooku was most likely psyching Grievous up. In all honestly, Dooku is too Dooku to lie or comfort, and he's too smart to misjudge like that.

    Agreed. Especially given the fact that Grievous already matched and or defeated council members before that scene.

    Not gonna lie, I completely forgot that he did that, further strengthening the argument that Dooku actually meant it.

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    killbilly

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    #23  Edited By killbilly  Moderator
    @silentnightz said:
    @killbilly said:

    "Few if any" is what he said Meaning he believes there MAY be Jedi that could defeat him, but he is not sure on that.

    That's a far cry from pitying Grievous should he face ANY ( even the weakest ) of the Jedi Council.

    I'm not saying that anyone with a chair can spank him; the best duelists were not all Jedi Council members, some council members were unimpressive duelists. That doesn't mean that any council member would solo him, but with another experienced saber combatant it wouldn't be hard to best him.

    Then you don't believe Dooku's statement was accurate. Glad we cleared that up.

    Now the question is, do you believe Dooku changed his opinion so drastically and meant what he said on a personal level?

    @silentnightz said:
    @killbilly said:

    Grievous's moves in actual battle were randomized:

    "a different angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs" - Revenge of the Sith.

    It's likely that Grievous wasn't taking the fight against his magnaguards all that seriously and was falling into rote/pre-programmed responses as a result. Something that annoyed Dooku.

    This line is meant to kinda talk Grievous up; 'unpredictable' to who? Several characters come to mind that would annihilate Grievous in battle.

    Unpredictable in general I imagine. I honestly can't see anybody outside of Sidious and Yoda ( and maybe Anakin under the right conditions, say if he'd just killed Padme in front of him ) "annihilating" Grievous on neutral ground.

    @silentnightz said:
    @killbilly said:

    When was it the case? In the same novel, Grievous fights evenly with Windu whilst hindered in the very same novel.

    Grievous is sure as hell dead now, right? And he was killed by more crafty, savy, intelligent opponent(Obi-Wan Kenobi), right? Obi-Wan's ability to adapt to the situation at hand outmatched Grievous' skillset and 'randomizer', to the point that Obi-Wan was arguably out-dueling him prior to their final fatal encounter. There are better fighters than the likes of Obi-Wan(Mace included) who would demolish Grievous and not solely based on skill.

    He was killed by Kenobi because Kenobi was distinctly suited to fighting him, per Windu and because he had specific circumstances in his favor in the final fight:

    "He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him." - Revenge of the Sith

    -

    "Jedi and cyborg fought briefly along a catwalk suspended over the lower levels of the hangar. By limiting Grievous' movement to the catwalk, Obi-Wan was able to neutralise the General's usually more ranging fighting style." - The Official Star Wars Fact File Relaunched #39

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    AnakinVader99

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    @killbilly: I would take fact file that seriously because the movie or novel never mentioned this and Grievous has super computer brain which adapts a lot

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    killbilly

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    #25  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

    @anakinvader99 said:

    @killbilly: I would take fact file that seriously because the movie or novel never mentioned this and Grievous has super computer brain which adapts a lot

    The fact files often bring up facts that text based sources don't necessarily note. The movie is a visual medium. It can't say anything on the matter. It can only depict the event in question.

    Grievous having a super computer brain doesn't make it so that physical limitations no longer affect him...

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    AnakinVader99

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    #26  Edited By AnakinVader99

    @killbilly said:
    @anakinvader99 said:

    @killbilly: I would take fact file that seriously because the movie or novel never mentioned this and Grievous has super computer brain which adapts a lot

    The fact files often bring up facts that text based sources don't necessarily note. The movie is a visual medium. It can't say anything on the matter. It can only depict the event in question.

    Like what? I meant the movie as in behind the scenes you know the people working on the movie nowhere does George or Nick Gillard suggest Obi-wan won the duel because of that

    Grievous having a super computer brain doesn't make it so that physical limitations no longer affect him...

    No but it would take note of the situation either telling Grievous it's a bad idea or adapt in a manner where Grievous can handle it he has moved around weirdly and oddly before not to mention Labyrinth never mentions this either plus it's not like Grievous fights fairly either and Obi-wan would have needed to adapt to Grievous and was not exactly in comfortable position either so it goes both ways

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    Stahlflamme

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    He is a Sith they are constantly belitteling everyone they are talking to. Their students because negative emotions make them strpnger and their Jedi opponents, because loaongntheor calm makes them easier to deal with.

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    killbilly

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    #28  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

    @anakinvader99: You might want to format that a bit better.

    @stahlflamme said:

    He is a Sith they are constantly belitteling everyone they are talking to. Their students because negative emotions make them strpnger and their Jedi opponents, because loaongntheor calm makes them easier to deal with.

    I agree with your assessment.

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    deactivated-6098713be0993

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    No. Grievous isn't a graceful fighter, and that's what Dooku hates.

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    El_mago

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    No. Grievous isn't a graceful fighter, and that's what Dooku hates.

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    killbilly

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    #31  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

    @breakofdawn said:

    No. Grievous isn't a graceful fighter, and that's what Dooku hates.

    @el_mago said:
    @breakofdawn said:

    No. Grievous isn't a graceful fighter, and that's what Dooku hates.

    👍

    I'd tend to agree, which is why I'm surprised at the poll numbers right now. Those who seem to hold the opposing position haven't really given us their point of view on the subject.

    Would anybody who voted for the first option on the poll like to do so? It'd be great to get both perspectives.

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    El_mago

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    AnakinVader99

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    @anakinvader99: You might want to format that a bit better.

    @stahlflamme said:

    He is a Sith they are constantly belitteling everyone they are talking to. Their students because negative emotions make them strpnger and their Jedi opponents, because loaongntheor calm makes them easier to deal with.

    I agree with your assessment.

    I forgot to bold it but you see my reply

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    killbilly

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    #34  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

    @anakinvader99 said:
    @killbilly said:

    @anakinvader99: You might want to format that a bit better.

    I agree with your assessment.

    I forgot to bold it but you see my reply

    And if it's not too much trouble on your part, I'd ask you to reformat it.

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    AnakinVader99

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    killbilly

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    #36  Edited By killbilly  Moderator
    @anakinvader99 said:
    @killbilly said:
    @anakinvader99 said:

    @killbilly: I would take fact file that seriously because the movie or novel never mentioned this and Grievous has super computer brain which adapts a lot

    The fact files often bring up facts that text based sources don't necessarily note. The movie is a visual medium. It can't say anything on the matter. It can only depict the event in question.

    Like what? I meant the movie as in behind the scenes you know the people working on the movie nowhere does George or Nick Gillard suggest Obi-wan won the duel because of that

    Grievous having a super computer brain doesn't make it so that physical limitations no longer affect him...

    No but it would take note of the situation either telling Grievous it's a bad idea or adapt in a manner where Grievous can handle ithe has moved around weirdly and oddly before

    not to mention Labyrinth never mentions this either

    plus it's not like Grievous fights fairly either and Obi-wan would have needed to adapt to Grievous and was not exactly in comfortable position either so it goes both ways

    That's... irrelevant. There's no reason for Lucas and Gillard to have commented on every single aspect of every fight in RotS. Lack of commentary on a subject does not affect the validity of canonical statements.

    I'm sure Grievous knew that fighting Kenobi in such a place wasn't optimal but he chose to do so, whether because Kenobi forced his hand by maneuvering the fight there or because he thought he could defeat Kenobi despite the disadvantage. Again, Grievous having a supercomputer brain in no way makes him invincible/unbeatable. There's nothing to suggest that it would allow him to "adapt in a manner that would allow him to handle it." The actual outcome of the fight actively disproves that theory.

    Why would Labyrinth of Evil mention a fight that happened between Kenobi and Grievous in RotS? If you're talking about Grievous being hindered because his mobility was limited, that's something that was actively stated in LoE. Either way I'm not sure what you're saying doesn't make sense.

    Grievous doesn't fight fairly? What do you mean by that? There's no such thing as "fighting fairly" in a lightsaber duel to the death. Combatants do everything in their power to win and we take that into account when assessing their combative capabilities in various areas.

    Kenobi also wouldn't need to "adapt" to Grievous. By this point, Kenobi is quite familiar with him:

    "Obi-Wan Kenobi and General Grievous often fought to a stalemate when they clashed, so equally matched were they as warriors. Eventually though, Kenobi was to learn how to best the Cyborg." - Fact File 69

    Why wouldn't Kenobi have been in a comfortable position? The quote doesn't mention Obi Wan being hindered in any way and seems to suggest Kenobi chose that location purposefully.

    Even looking at their fighting style sthat suggestion doesn't make sense given Kenobi's a practitioner of Soresu, a form that is generally a rather defensive and conservative in its movements.

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    AnakinVader99

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    @anakinvader99 said:
    @killbilly said:
    @anakinvader99 said:

    @killbilly: I would take fact file that seriously because the movie or novel never mentioned this and Grievous has super computer brain which adapts a lot

    The fact files often bring up facts that text based sources don't necessarily note. The movie is a visual medium. It can't say anything on the matter. It can only depict the event in question.

    Like what? I meant the movie as in behind the scenes you know the people working on the movie nowhere does George or Nick Gillard suggest Obi-wan won the duel because of that

    Grievous having a super computer brain doesn't make it so that physical limitations no longer affect him...

    No but it would take note of the situation either telling Grievous it's a bad idea or adapt in a manner where Grievous can handle ithe has moved around weirdly and oddly before

    not to mention Labyrinth never mentions this either

    plus it's not like Grievous fights fairly either and Obi-wan would have needed to adapt to Grievous and was not exactly in comfortable position either so it goes both ways

    That's... irrelevant. There's no reason for Lucas and Gillard to have commented on every single aspect of every fight in RotS. Lack of commentary on a subject does not affect the validity of canonical statements.

    But they do comment on different points in a fight and they have mentioned weaknesses like Anakin losing control of his emotions so the would have mentioned like "Obi-wan has the advantage in this area"

    I'm sure Grievous knew that fighting Kenobi in such a place wasn't optimal but he chose to do so, whether because Kenobi forced his hand by maneuvering the fight there or because he thought he could defeat Kenobi despite the disadvantage. Again, Grievous having a supercomputer brain in no way makes him invincible/unbeatable. There's nothing to suggest that it would allow him to "adapt in a manner that would allow him to handle it." The actual outcome of the fight actively disproves that theory.

    But Grievous never mentions it even in his point of view he never mentioned or commented on it. No but since he is adapted to a lot of ridiculous things you would think he could adapt to the minor catwalk. Yes it does he adapted to Vaapad a fighting style that not only should be impossible to adapt and is much harder than a catwalk

    Why would Labyrinth of Evil mention a fight that happened between Kenobi and Grievous in RotS? If you're talking about Grievous being hindered because his mobility was limited, that's something that was actively stated in LoE. Either way I'm not sure what you're saying doesn't make sense.

    It never mentions that Grievous couldn't do his range attacks only his mobility while the other mentions his range attacks and no mention of mobility

    Grievous doesn't fight fairly? What do you mean by that? There's no such thing as "fighting fairly" in a lightsaber duel to the death. Combatants do everything in their power to win and we take that into account when assessing their combative capabilities in various areas.

    I mean he uses his magna guards to save his ass, randomly grab a gun and shoot them and do a lot of coward tactics. Fighting fairly would be fighting no interference, pure lightsabers and force and all augmentation not something that wouldn't normally happen in a fight what are the odds of grabbing a gun that happened to be nearby or having your guard with you when they normally aren't

    Kenobi also wouldn't need to "adapt" to Grievous. By this point, Kenobi is quite familiar with him:

    "Obi-Wan Kenobi and General Grievous often fought to a stalemate when they clashed, so equally matched were they as warriors. Eventually though, Kenobi was to learn how to best the Cyborg." - Fact File 69

    I meant in the real Legends not tcw crap which has so many contradictions that it minus well be none canon

    Why wouldn't Kenobi have been in a comfortable position? The quote doesn't mention Obi Wan being hindered in any way and seems to suggest Kenobi chose that location purposefully.

    You try fighting in a catwalk not exactly easy not to mention Obi-wan would lose mobility as well and has not fought before and you even see him trying to maintain balance while Grievous was not showing any signs of losing balance so if anything Grievous was more at a disadvantage.

    Even looking at their fighting style sthat suggestion doesn't make sense given Kenobi's a practitioner of Soresu, a former that is generally a rather defensive and conservative in its movements.

    Yes but he still uses Ataru in almost every fight and it's very useful

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    Erkan12

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    Grievous can't use the Force (not talking about Telekinesis, it's about precognition, movements, agility, jump etc.). They already said someone like Ventress is above of Grievous, which is pretty much the same thing.

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    Void_Reborn

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    #39  Edited By Void_Reborn

    @killbilly

    I find it odd that Grievous is apparently vulnerable to unpredictable fighting when he himself has a dueling style that is almost unsettling at times but scarily efficient. Pretty sure one of the main traits of the cyborg general is his ability to adapt to the fighting styles of his opponents on the fly and as the fight goes on so that doesn't actually make that much sense. Dooku himself admits that a master of martial arts could lose to an amateur cantina brawler who knew nothing of technique but everything on how to quickly end a fight, which would also make Grievous's weakness against opponents with 'finesse' a rather moot point. Isn't he just the greatest example of what Dooku is referring to? Honestly I think this is clearly another moment where we get a look into some of Dooku's personal bias. It's a bit like how he admonishes against ANYTHING that isn't a single saber, preferably one-handed. Dual-bladed saberstaff? Cringe. Two lightsabers? God awful. 3 or 4? What has the Galaxy even become anymore... and obviously this isn't always true considering how far and how skilled some practitioners of the styles he loathes have come and peaked.

    That being said, there is a lot a supercomputer can process and do that the human mind can't really catch onto in the heat of the moment. Especially in his Legends incarnation, although Grievous is supposed to be filled with vengeance, anger and hatred he seems to keep his cool during combat. It shouldn't be too difficult for him to analyse and adapt to the combat style of nearly any individual he is fighting.

    As for the OP, a few users have already mentioned what came to mind when I was having this dilemma as to whether he did in fact change his mind or not.

    There are a couple of possibilities:

    -Dooku is genuinely annoyed and reprimanding Grievous, going as far as to even contradict himself despite it not being his true feelings on the matter (I doubt this one)

    -Dooku is purposefully antagonising him to allow for better performance the next time around, something I can definitely see him doing because we have already seen footage of Dooku training Grievous. The tone in which he speaks and tries to warp Grievous's fighting tendencies in a way he feels is more suitable is very similar to what was being said in LoE. Another indicator could be how he speaks to Savage while training him in TCW but there's an obvious continuity mix-up if we go into this

    My personal take on it would be that he didn't change his mind. I think it would be pretty awkward if he actually did. It would also be contradictory to Grievous's own performance against Jedi Council members. While they were somewhat tired, he practically stomped two of them backed up by renowned Knights and Masters on Hypori. Shaak Ti, even when at her best on Coruscant is still obviously no match for him in single combat and she is among the better half of the Council. I'm sorry but these are not examples that illustrate how pitiful it would be to watch Grievous face off against 'any of the Jedi Council members', these are showings that would suggest he could take on any of the best Jedi that ever existed and win, stalemate or narrowly lose, performing well all the way. Cin Drallig? He's got all accolades but nothing to show for it. Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi and steamrolled through some of the greatest. Obi-Wan? It took everything he had, a stylistic advantage, practical oneness with the force and an environmental edge to secure even just a few disarms on Grievous, while he was barely holding up against the most tireless and inexorably fierce offensive his Soresu had ever had to go up against, almost being completely overloaded. Mace Windu? Already stalemated him and was gaining ground despite being environmentally hindered, rendered nearly immobile and having his offensive output halved. Yoda? Perhaps the only one I agree with. Dooku is right when he says there are few who could hope to best Grievous but I don't think few is referring to 11 or 12, more like 2 or 3.

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