Star Wars Misconceptions: The Force Unleashed Franchise

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KillBilly

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#1  Edited By KillBilly

Hello everybody. Today we're going to go over some of the misconceptions people seem to have about events that occur in the "The Force Unleashed" and "The Force Unleashed II."

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Galen Marek vs Shaak Ti

Context and Circumstances

1. The planet where Galen and Shaak's fight takes place is stated by Galen himself to be a world that has been twisted out of balance into a Lightside nexus.

"She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and the dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance. There was still darkness on Felucia, but it was stifled, frustrated, weakened. He strained to awaken it." - The Force Unleashed.

1A. As can be seen from the quote above, Galen strained to utilize the Darkside on the planet as it was "stifled" and "weakened" there meaning he would have been actively hindered in his fight against Shaak.

"She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and the dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance. There was still darkness on Felucia, but it was stifled, frustrated, weakened. He strained to awaken it." - The Force Unleashed.

1B. Assuming Felucia functions like every other Lightside nexus in Star Wars, Shaak would have been amped beyond her normal capabilities in her fight against Galen.

"As the Off Chance carried them to the home of the Singing Mountain Clan, they passed over shining oceans, lush forests, vast deserts, rolling hills and wide fertile plains. Tenel Ka felt strength and energy flow through her, as if they very atmosphere of the planet had the power to recharge her." - Star Wars: Young Jedi Knights: Shadow Academy.

2. I've seen some people attempt to claim that the comic contradicts the novel in this regard throwing the issue into doubt. This is incorrect for two reasons.

2A. The first reason is that the presumption that there is a contradiction is in itself faulty. People point to the following scan as proof of this claim.

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What most aren't aware of is that these yellow text bubbles aren't third person narration. They're commentaries made by Proxy as he retells the story of TFU.

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Therefore, there is no actual contradiction within continuity occurring. It is simply the word of a non Force-sensitive droid conflicting with that of a Force sensitive who was able to actively sense the Force alignment of the planet.

2B. The second is that the TFU novelization was stated to be "the true story" of Starkiller in the same section that the game and comic are mentioned by Haden Blackman ( the creative director for TFU and its various adaptions ) meaning the events in the novel would logically take precedent if there were a contradiction.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100414014010/http://starwars.com/vault/books/news20080819.html

3. Another factor that is often overlooked is that Galen had fought through an army of Force user's prior to facing off with Ti. I've seen people try to downplay this feat by suggesting the Felucians were unimpressive opponents or that they wouldn't have taxed Galen's reserves considerably. Considering the text goes out of its way to state that Galen was having trouble getting to Ti in the first place, that the the Felucians were so alive with the Force that they were "dangerous" to him and that Galen is actively trying to dispatch them without fuss in order to conserve energy runs counter to this.

"He dispatched them calmly and without fuss, saving his energy for the real enemy waiting for him. Getting to her, however, was proving to be something of a problem. Although he had sensed her clearly from orbit as a deformation in the Force, much like a body of mass deformed the fabric of space-time, he hadn't anticipated the dense flows he would encounter on the surface. The entire jungle was alive with tin Force, from the tiniest spore to the mightiest rancor, and the Felucians themselves were alive with it, too-so alive, in fact, that they tapped into the Force as naturally as humans breathed an oxygen-rich atmosphere. That made them dangerous to him, the Sith apprentice who had come to crush the regime Shaak Ti had nurtured on Felucia." - The Force Unleashed.

To help the point sink in, I'll be providing some accolades and examples of their power below.

3A. Can manipulate light around themselves in order to blend in with their surroundings.

3B. Can enhance the durability of their bone blades to the point that they are lightsaber resistant.

"The bone swords were resistant to his lightsaber, but his skill with the Force far exceeded theirs." - The Force Unleashed.

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Just to remind everybody of the power thata lightsabers possesses.

A lightsaber can cut through the shielded hull of a CIS Dreadnought.

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A lightsaber's heat and energy output is far greater then that of a small nuclear blast.

"It wouldn't withstand a lightsaber, but it would keep a horde of safecrackers busy for a month, and would easily withstand a small nuclear blast." - Fatal Alliance.

A lightsaber is as hot as the core of a star.

"Throughout the generations, lightsaber technology was refined from those first high-maintenance 'captive bolt' lightsabers to the lightweight modern lightsabers, which utilizes a stablized, massless plasma beam that burns as hot and bright as the core of a star." - SW: Force & Destiny Core Rulebook.

A lightsaber is able to cut through a material so dense that it warps the fabric of space and time.

"As a Jedi shuttle settled to the landing deck outside, the shadow sent its mind into the far deeper night within one of the several pieces of sculpture that graced the office: an abstract twist of solid neuranium, so heavy that the office floor had been specially reinforced to bear its weight, so dense that more sensitive species might, from very close range, actually percieve the tiny warping of the fabric of space-time that was its gravitation. Neuranium of more than roughly a millimeter thick is impervious to sensors; the standard security scans undergone by all equipment and furniture to enter the Senate Office Building had shown nothing at all. If anyone had thought to use an advanced gravimetric detector, however, they might have discovered that one smallish section of the sculpture massed slightly less than it should have, given that the manifest that had accompanied it, when it was brought from Naboo among the then-ambassador's personal effects, clearly stated that it was a single piece of solid-forged neuranium. The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid, and not all of it was neuranium. Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute darkness-darkness beyond darkness-for decades. Waiting for night to fall on the Republic. The shadow felt Jedi Masters stride the vast echoic emptiness of the vaulted halls outside. It could practically hear the cadence of their boot heels on the Alderaanian marble. The darkness within the sculpture whispered of the shape and the feel and every intimate resonance of the device it cradled With a twist of its will, the shadow triggered the device. The neuranium got warm. A small round spot, smaller than the circle a human child might make of thumb and forefinger, turned the color of old blood. Then fresh blood. Then open flame. Finally a spear of scarlet energy lanced free, painting the office with the color of stars seen through the smoke of burning planets. The spear of energy lengthened, drawing with it out from the darkness the device, then the scarlet blade shrank away and the device slid itself within the softer darkness of a sleeve." - Revenge of the Sith.

3C. Can heal a being from debilitating injuries within a few minutes to the point that can fight as if they had never been injured in the first place.

"The warrior dropped dead to the ground but two more leapt out of the bushes behind him, waving their bone swords and howling in their strange, guttural language. He recognized the largest as one he had injured previously, but he moved now with perfect grace and aggression; the shaman he had spared several minutes earlier must have doubled back and healed the warrior's injuries. He vowed not to make the same mistake again." - The Force Unleashed.

Note: This is notable as there are many fully trained Jedi healers who have struggled to healer lesser wounds.

3D. Capable of utilizing basic telekinesis and energy attacks.

"The apprentice ducked another bolt of Force energy hurled by the Felucian warrior to his right and sent a jagged line of Sith lightning crackling across the distance between them." - The Force Unleashed.-"Dodging their clumsy telekinesis and unwieldy blows, he dispatched them calmly and without fuss, saving his energy for the real enemy waiting for him." - The Force Unleashed.

3E. Felucian shamans are even more powerful than their non-shaman counterparts and are considered among the most powerful natural Force user's in the galaxy.

4. Lastly, I thought I'd address a pretty common misconception. The idea that Shaak Ti unbalanced the Force solely through her own personal power. This is simply not true and is something outright contradicted by the TFU campaign guide.

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4A. It goes on to indicate that the reason Felucia has shifted so drastically to the Darkside since Shaak Ti's death is a result of Maris Brood's fall to the Darkside and her subsequent influence over the Felucian shamans.

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4B. One might wonder why Galen's own presence didn't offset Shaak's own and turn Felucia into a neutral or even Darkside nexus especially if he was more powerful than her. The reason for this is as follows:

Firstly, as we've established, it's not about the Force user themselves, but about how their presence affects the native Felucians that affects the planets alignment. While Galen's arrival on the planet would have undoubtedly had an effect on the native Felucians, Shaak had already been there for years teaching them about the Lightside. Prior to her arrival, they were already wary enough of Felucia potentially turning into a Darkside nexus that they sacrificed those who fell to the Darkside to the sarlaac. Shaak's arrival and teachings would have only strengthened this resolve. That being the case, Galen's presence is unlikely to cause an immediate shift in the Felucians alignment, especially given he was on the planet for less than a day.Breakdown of Their Fight.

Now, on to the actual fight. As I've established above, Galen enters this fight in a hindered and fatigued state whilst Shaak would logically be receiving an amp. She would also reasonably have possessed an environmental advantage over Galen insofar as being familiar with the location they were fighting in whereas Galen was not. There are two different depictions of this fight; the novel and the comic. While I've already established that the novel's version of events takes precedence over any other version, I'll break down both fights just to be thorough.

Novel Version

1. In the novel's version of the fight, Shaak uses her higher starting position to generate greater force behind her initial strike which initially puts Galen off balance.

She smiled in mockery. "Are you prepared to meet your fate?" Then her lightsaber was lit and she was spinning through the air toward him, striking downward as she fell. The apprentice simultaneously backflipped and blocked her opening blow. The force of it surprised him, and the recoil threw him backward. His hood caught on one of the sarlacc's teeth, and he tore it impatiently away before the snag could interfere with his defense. Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again." - The Force Unleashed.

2. In an attempt to put some distance between himself and Ti so that he can regain his balance, Galen jumps down but not wanting to allow her to possess a height advantage he immediately tries to ascend to again. Shaak Ti is right there with him though and, leveraging her height advantage, is able to prevent him from getting back to even ground through a series of blows he struggles to block while simultaneously attempting to get to higher ground.

"Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward the mouth of the sarlacc. From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all." - The Force Unleashed.

3. Using a bolt of lightning, Galen is able to cause the sarlaac to shake the ground and put himself and Shaak back on even footing.

"He summoned a bolt of Sith lightning and sent it down, into the flesh of the sarlacc. The beast roared and shook, giving him the opening he needed. Shaak Ti's right foot slipped, forcing her to flip elegantly out of reach of his blade. He leapt after her, swinging as he came." - The Force Unleashed.

4. After Galen was able to nullify Shaak's initial advantage, they fight evenly.

"The fight progressed around the sarlacc's center rings, blow and counterblow accompanied by the roaring of the beast. The apprentice cut off teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary's head. In return she took tighter control of the beast's distributed intelligence and sent its food-seeking tentacles flailing for him. He repulsed them and fought on. Down they drove each other, closer and closer to the very lip of the creature's enormous mouth. The air was foul down there, heavy with digestive by-products and the stink of rotting meat. Ghastly exhalations rolled over them as the sarlacc roared on. The apprentice was running out of teeth to sever, so he resorted more and more frequently to Sith lightning and random slashes of his lightsaber to keep it twitching underfoot. Thick ichor leaking out of the wounds made the footing even more treacherous." - The Force Unleashed.

5. They go on to have a brief conversation whilst fighting wherein Galen suggests Shaak is tiring. After seeming to admit that she is, Shaak reflects his own accusation back at him but he denies it citing the Darkside's inexhaustible strength. Shaak seemingly admits that his denial holds merit but only as a result of his personal power and not his allegiance to one side of the Force or the other.

"You can't keep this up forever," he taunted Shaak Ti as they dueled."Neither can you," she said. "You are wasting your strength too quickly.""The dark side is inexhaustible.""Your strength is prodigious," she admitted, "but that is your doing. Light, dark..." She paused to aim a blow at his head that he barely deflected. "They are just directions. Do not be fooled that you stand on anything other than your own two feet."He slashed at her own feet as they spun by overhead and sent one of her ribbons twirling down into the sarlacc's gaping mouth. "Spare me the philosophy lesson, Jedi," he snarled. "I'm only here for your blood.""And you may yet have it, or I yours." - The Force Unleashed.

6. The last bit of the fight is Shaak essentially sacrificing her own life in an attempt to catch Galen off guard and end his life at the cost of her own. This makes sense when you consider she admitted to Galen that her own energy was flagging whilst his were not and that she wanted to ensure she protected her apprentice and the regime she'd fostered on Felucia. Unfortunately for her, she is not fast enough to land a fatal blow before Galen manages to raise a telekinetic shield to block one of her strikes and reflexively raise his own blade to impale her.

"On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice's left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue. She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss. He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her. He had raised his lightsaber by reflex. She had, in the desperation of her final assault, practically thrown herself on the blade. Perhaps she had meant for the two of them to defeat each other at the same time." - The Force Unleashed.

Comic Version

The comic version of the fight gives an even less favorable depiction for Shaak.

1. In it, we have Shaak landing a Force push on Galen as he's attempting to jump over a pit which causes him to land amongst the sarlaac teeth. In the subsequent panel we see the edges of one of the sarlaac's teeth broken off and Galen bleeding from the head.

2. This gives Shaak Ti the time she needs to charge an energy attack for several seconds and unleash it on Galen. We know that it was several seconds because she was charging up her attack while dialogue. Transcript of said dialogue: "I knew him when he was just a frightened boy. Not unlike you."

3. The charged attack from Ti knocks him back but, apart from that, has no discernible affect on him.

4. Using her influence over the environment, Ti commands the sarlaac to wrap Marek up in its tentacles. As Shaak senses the life fading from Marek he unleashes an omni-directional blast that destroys the sarlaac tentacles holding him and fatally injuries Ti. While Ti clearly underestimated him, the comic makes it clear that she had time to sense and react to Galen's repulse as she cries out before turning around with her hands raised in front of her. While I would agree that whatever defensive barrier she was able to throw up in that time would not have been representative of her full power, it remains that she was fatally injured by an undirected blast of power from Galen that wasn't even aimed at her. This simply proves the vast disparity in power that exists between Shaak and Galen even at this point in the TFU storyline.

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Shadow Guard Scaling

Recently, I've seen people using the following quote to place on or above Galen's level as of his mission to Nar Shaddaa:

In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

-- The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 63

The argument is as follows. Because a Shadow Guard gave Galen a "tough fight" and Ventress is above any Shadow Guard, she must also be above Galen at that point in the story, or at least on his level.

I'll be pointing out the flaws in this "reasoning" below.

1. The Shadow Guard being "tough work" for Galen in no way implies that they are equals.

"Stand up, General," the apprentice called over the racket. "They may be shooting at me right now, but they came here for you."Then he was forced to concentrate on the Imperials and their local allies. The mechanical "Uggernaughts" were heavily armored and armed both. His first priority was to knock them out. He pushed one onto its side with the Force and overloaded the electrical systems of the second, encouraging the stormtroopers in scatter. The smell of scorched Ugnaught fur made the cantina smell even worse. From outside, he could already hear the clanking of reinforcements."

-

As he fought his way toward the cantina's back door, he commed the Rogue Shadow and told Juno that he would need a rapid dust-off.

"Same place I dropped you off, I presume."

"Unless it gets too hot there." He brought the ceiling down on one of the troopers and telekinetically threw rubble at another. "Stay close and wait for my signal."

"Will do. Juno out."

He glanced behind him. Kota was finally moving, hunched like a stunned mine crab with his hands splayed before him. Hopefully the Force would be with Kota, because the apprentice knew with one look through the door that he would have his work cut out for him. There were at least two dozen Imperials in the storeroom, taking cover behind crates and barrels. A line of Uggernaughts promised to make short work of him if he so much as blinked.

-

A glimpse of a black-robed figure standing with the stormtroopers stopped him in his tracks. On sight of him, it tilted its black helmet and ignited a red lightsaber. The stormtroopers dropped to their knees and fired. The apprentice's blade came up of its own accord. Moving in extreme slow motion, as though the air were made of treacle, hi deflected volley after volley from the blasters back at the troopers who fired them. They staggered and fell with smoke pouring from shoulder and neck joints. Their cries barely registered."

-

A bolt of Sith lightning shot from the hand not holding the staff. The apprentice grinned, having anticipated that tactic. He met the lightning bolt with one of his own. They collided in a spitting crackling ball of pure energy that danced crazily from side to side. The air filled with the sharp stink of ozone. The hooded assassin grunted and applied more effort. The apprentice met that effort and exceeded it. The ease with which he drove his assailant's lightning back surprised him.

-

A squad of troopers was waiting for him in the heat exchange, with three of the mobile Uggernaughts. He made short work of them, neither rushing recklessly in nor drawing the fight out, There was no point to be made here. They were simply inconveniences. He tossed the last of the Uggernaughts into the spinning blades of a fan four times as tall as he was. It exploded in a ball of flame, almost taking out its twin farther along the heat exchange. Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning. Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

-

Stepping out into the open air, he found himself facing another squad of troopers, two more of the Emperor's assassins, and no less than six Uggernaughts. Two transport balloons heavily weighted with supplies hung overhead, motors whirring to keep them on station, presumably waiting to land. Kota was nowhere in he seen. The apprentice bent his knees and adopted a fighting stance.

-- The Force Unleashed.

The context behind Galen and this particular Shadow Guard's fight is that a large number of Imperial forces have arrived in order to capture or kill Rahm Kota. Because Galen's own mission is reliant on acquiring Rahm Kota as an ally, he engages these forces.

Throughout this engagement the Imperials are constantly receiving reinforcements with Galen being aware of this fact. The Shadow Guards is "tough work" in the context that Galen needs to defeat them before more Imperial forces arrive and make his job even more difficult to carry out. He's "tough work" compared to the previous Shadow Guard that Galen overwhelmed with ease. This does not make him close to Galen's level.

2. Galen is unable to draw on his full power while Rahm is present during his fights with the Shadow Guards.

"He broke off communications to block a downward slash that almost knocked him flat. Glancing around for Kota, he was relieved to see that the general was nowhere nearby. Now he could summon the full power of the dark side." - The Force Unleashed.

At this point, Galen is primarily a Darkside Force user and his inability to draw on the Darkside with Rahm nearby hampered his abilities as stated by the text.

3. While we know Ventress is more powerful then this particular Shadow Guard, the extent of the disparity that exists between them is not defined. She and the Shadow Guard Galen faced could be approximately on the same level for all we know. And given the challenge the Shadow Guard provided Galen and the power Galen had demonstrated up to that point in the story, that would indeed be the reasonable assumption.

Vader vs Galen

Vader "Ragdolling" Galen

Some people seem to be under the impression that Vader "ragdolled" Galen in their first fight aboard the Death Star because of a brief sentence which describes an attempted Force choke by Vader. I'll be debunking that here.

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight. He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room."

-- The Force Unleashed.

1. As you can see from the above. Vader's attempt at a Force choke worked. For a moment. Galen response is to send Vader flying back across the room with a Force push.

Exerting enough pressure to be felt past a Force user's defenses for a brief moment does not constitute a "ragdoll." Despite what some user's would have you believe.

2. This attempt wasn't a one time thing either and was seemingly perpetrated by both Vader and Galen throughout the fight.

"And there were ways to fight that didn't involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers."

-- The Force Unleashed.

3. A smaller number of people cite Vader ragdolling Galen on Corellia. It should be noted that Galen had just suffered a blow from a stone table that "would've killed a normal being" and that he was initially caught off guard by Vader's betrayal.

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"Before Starkiller could reach out for where his lightsaber lay fallen on the ground, the stone conference table lifted into the air and hurled itself at him. Crashing through three of the pillars and catching him squarely in the chest, it drove him out into the snow.

-

"Vader here-and Starkiller hadn't expected it!"

-

The apprentice crouched face down in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to one mistake his Master had made. He had been rebuilt tougher than before. As heavy boots crunched through the snow toward him, he knew that it would take more than one mistake to bring about the fall of Darth Vader. He raised his head and spoke painfully through clenched teeth.

"You agreed to stay away ..." Blood dripped from his teeth onto the icy ground.

"I lied," said his Master, "as I have from the very beginning."

The power of the dark side lifted him out of the snow and into the air. Pain threatened to overload his nervous system, but he refused to cry out.

-- The Force Unleashed.

4. He was injured to the point that breathing caused him pain and blood spewed out of his mouth when he attempted to talk. He was in no state to defend against Vader's Force attacks.

Vader's "Superiority" As A Lightsaber Combatant

I've seen people take a few brief circumstantial passages from Galen and Vader's fight in TFU to mean Vader was the superior lightsaber combatant. I'll be going over why this is not the case.

1. The first passage people cite is the very first line of their fight.

"He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise. A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely."

-- The Force Unleashed.

People take this passage to mean Vader has a massive strength advantage over Galen and that Galen could not have pressed an offensive given their disparity in this regard. There are a few problems with this line of thinking.

Firstly, Galen and Vader are stated to "go back and forth" after assessing each other with Galen having no trouble blocking Vader's second series of blows.

They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily.

-

"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision."

-

"They fought back and forth across the observation dome."

-- The Force Unleashed.

As you might've noticed, Galen states that he "thought he was ready" in the first quote, and that the power behind Vader's initial blow took him off guard. Given he is fighting evenly with Vader after reassessing him, as they are "going back and forth" it would seem to indicate that the only reason Vader's initial attack was so successful was because Galen wasn't prepared for the power Vader put behind his initial blow.

This is supported by other instances throughout the mythos such as Zannah's own fight against Bane in Dynasty of Evil.

"Zannah expected Bane to come at her aggressively, but even so she was caught off guard by the ferociousness of his attack. He opened with a series of two-handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above. She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance."

-- Dynasty of Evil.

Zannah is well aware of Bane's capabilities having defended against an assault by Bane when he was amped by his orbalisk armor in Rule of Two. Even still, she was caught off guard by the force behind his initial blow. It seems to be common practice for a former master to alter what they usually do in a fight in order to gain an advantage over a former apprentice who is relying on their knowledge of their master's capabilities and preconceived notions of what they will do.

Like Galen however, Zannah is able to adjust to Bane and fend off his assault during the fight, even being able to build up her power for a spell whilst doing so.

2. The second passage people cite occurs near the end.

"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

-- The Force Unleashed.

Here, people like to cite how Vader nearly killed Galen. What they neglect to mention is that Galen had attempted to utilize Dun Moch on Vader in the sentence before, something which backfired on him, ultimately angering Vader and allowing him to momentarily gain the advantage after "redoubling the intensity of his attack."

3. These are the only 2 instances in which Vader has the advantage over Galen. Every other part of the fight, Galen and Vader are either fighting evenly, or Galen himself has the advantage.

Here's a list of the instances where Galen has the advantage:

"He blocked a savage slash that would have cut him in two and another that would have lifted his head clean from his shoulders. Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master's belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader's helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely."

-- The Force Unleashed.

"The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits."

-- The Force Unleashed.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

-- The Force Unleashed.

And then, in a brief instance that occurs after the above quotes, Galen grows angry and scores several hits on Vader.

"Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh."

-- The Force Unleashed.

4. It should be noted that he calms himself prior to dominating Vader with the Force.

"The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly."

-

"Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued."

-- The Force Unleashed.

Just for clarity, below is the manner in which Vader lifted the apprentice's father.

No Caption Provided

Sidious vs Galen

Galen's "Oneness"

I oftentimes see people cite the fact that Galen was in Oneness in his Force lock against Sidious. Problem is, he wasn't.

1. Those who've actually read the novel know that Galen entered Oneness AFTER lowering his Force defenses and gathering the energy necessary to create a distraction for Juno and the Rebels to escape.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava. He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome."

-- The Force Unleashed.

2. An often overlooked fact about Galen's fight with Sidious is that it occurs AFTER his fight with Vader where he would've notably expended a fair amount of energy. Just some food for thought.

Sidious Not Going All Out

There are those who argue Sidious was not going all out in his Force lock against Galen. I'm here to set the record straight on this issue.

1. Sidious is stated to be desperate, and using his desperation to fuel the lightning he is using to attack Galen Marek with.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain."

-- The Force Unleashed.

2. The Force Lightning being generated by both Sidious and Galen is shown to pierce through Sidious's Force defenses.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain."

-- The Force Unleashed.

No Caption Provided

The only way one can believe Sidious wasn't going all out is if you believe he allowed his own Force defenses to be pierced and became desperate for literally no reason at all. This is a nonsensical stance for obvious reasons.

Sidious Tanked Galen's Oneness Blast

This one is just blatantly false.

1. Sidious is actively shown to be damaged by the blast in the comic.

No Caption Provided

2. The blast was released in the form of an explosion that radiated outward in all directions which means that Sidious would only have been defending against the barest fraction of the blast's total energy.

3. Galen released the explosion of energy in order to kill the Imperials who were about to gun down Juno and the Rebel leaders in order to give them time to escape. Given the Rogue Shadow is shown to be engulfed by the explosion and Galen's intent was to save the love of his life and the fledgling rebellion, it would not have made sense for him to have released a blast of energy powerful enough to have overwhelmed the Rogue Shadow's shields meaning it's likely he scaled back the power of the blast or spread the energy he released over a wider area in order to keep from overwhelming its shields.

"A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp. "No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials."

-- The Force Unleashed.

3A. As you can see from the underlined section, Galen only dropped his defenses and entered a state of Oneness AFTER he saw the stormtroopers about to gun down Juno and the Rebels. This is despite noticing their arrival beforehand. I.E. his logical motivation for striking at the Imperials is to STOP them from gunning down Juno and the Rebels.

No Caption Provided

3B. In figure one we see that the explosion is close enough to the Rogue Shadow that it's obscuring everything else in front of its view port.

3C. In figure two we see that, rather then taking off immediately, Juno asks about Starkiller with Kota telling her that he's gone and to take off in response.

3D. In figure three we're shown the full extent of the area that Galen's Oneness blast covered. It's large enough that a portion of its upper right corner dwarfs the Rogue Shadow ( a 65 meter ship ) in size meaning that the edge of the explosion we see covers hundreds of meters in all directions.

No Caption Provided

Conclusion: If the Oneness explosion was moving at anywhere near the speed of a conventional explosion, the Rogue Shadow would have been engulfed by it.

Galen Was "No Match" for Sidious

A number of people have attempted to argue that the following quote implies that Sidious far outclassed Galen Marek in their encounter:

As Juno rescued the Senators, Starkiller confronted the Sith Lords who had been manipulating him for years. Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

1. The problem with this interpretation is that the quote in no way suggests there is a vast disparity between Sidious and Marek. The only thing the quote actually states is that Galen is unable to to equal Sidious's power after his fight with Vader.

Match ( as defined by the dictionary ):

A person or thing able to contend with another as an equal in quality or strength.

To be equal to something in quality or strength.

Ex. "His anger matched her own."

2. As a result, the same statement can be applied to how Yoda fared against Sidious in RotS.

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s Light and Dark Sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat.

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

The Jedi Master and the Sith Lord dueled in the Senate chamber, but Sidious was too strong for Yoda to defeat.

--Databank: Coruscant History Gallery.

A fierce duel commenced. Yoda and Darth Sidious each used his side of the Force to try to defeat the other. But the Sith Lord's powers were too strong.

--Revenge of the Sith Canon junior novelization.

3. Some may attempt to argue that the statement "no match" has colloquially been used to establish a large disparity between two things, and they'd be right. The problem with attempting to apply such an interpretation to the quote referencing Starkiller and Sidious is twofold:

3A. Galen was not utterly outclassed by Sidious in their engagement and even managed to hold his own in a Force lock against the Emperor for an extended period of time actually driving Sidious to the point of desperation.

3B. The quotes states that Starkiller was "ultimately" no match for Sidious, which suggests that he only proved unequal to Sidious after a contested bout.

Consider the following sentence:

"The Chargers and Patriots game went into overtime last night. After a grueling match between the two teams, the Chargers ultimately proved no match for the Patriots."

This does not suggest that the Patriots vastly outclassed the likes of the Chargers. Only that the Chargers themselves were unable to overcome them.

I.E. The qualifier in the sentence that changes the statements implied meaning is the word "ultimately" and this is supported by how Galen actually fared against Sidious.

Vader vs Starkiller ( clone )

Vader "Ragdolling" Starkiller

1. I often hear it said that Vader "ragdolled" Starkiller and, as a result, was vastly superior to him. While this does occur in some cutscenes of the game, what people don't mention is that, moments before engaging Vader, Starkiller was so exhausted he was physically shaking and that he was more exhausted then he'd ever been at any point in his life prior.

"The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being.”

-- The Force Unleashed II.

This includes an instance where he survived solely off of the Force for 13 days and his journey through the Kaminoan complex where he struggled to lift a large ship with the Force and was visibly tired after doing so.

He shied away from both memory and contemplation. There was no point wasting energy on either when his very survival was at stake. How many days he had been down the pit he no longer knew, but in that time he had neither eaten nor slept. His enemy wasn't physical in the sense of a foe he could strike down or manipulate. It was himself - his fallible body, his weak mind, his faltering spirit. He would endure and emerge whole, or never emerge at all.

Such was the life of Darth Vader's secret apprentice.

"He is dead. "

"Then he is now more powerful than ever. "

More voices. He closed his eyes and shook his head. Kneeling, he placed his manacled hands on the slick metal surface below him and concentrated on hearing the world outside.

Long stretches of isolation had attuned him to the cloning facility's many moods. Through the metal he heard a relentless hiss that could only be rain. Sharp cracking sounds were lightning, coming and going in staccato waves. Rolling rumbles were thunder, and a deeper note still was the song of seabed - hugging currents that circled the world.

He was on Kamino. Starkiller was sure of that much. He had been reborn on the distant water world, where a significant percentage of the Emperor's stormtroopers were grown. Here it was that he would live and grow strong, or die weak and unmourned. Every hardship, every hurdle, was one step closer to full mastery of his fate. That was the lesson underlying all lessons.

A new note entered the planet's endless song: the scream of a TIE advanced prototype starfighter. Angular and fleet, with bent vanes, it entered the atmosphere with a whip-crack sonic boom and descended on a bold, high-energy descent toward the facility.

Starkiller tensed. He knew that ship's sound and could sense the well-practiced hand behind its controls. He heard stormtroopers marching quickly in response to their master's electronic summons, calling orders to one another as they went. Blast doors opened and closed with booming thuds. The facility woke from its unattended slumber.

He didn't move as the TIE fighter landed. He didn't open his eyes as two heavy, booted feet dropped onto the platform and began the long walk through the facility. He breathed at a steady pace through the whine of the turbolift and the hiss of doors opening. A ring of red lights at the top of the pit came on, and although he felt the light against his hunched back, he didn't look up.

He heard breathing, mechanical and regular. Heavy footsteps came to the very lip of the pit, and stopped.

"You're alive," said Darth Vader.

At the voice of his former Master, Starkiller looked up, blinking against the light. Vader's boots were three meters above him, barely visible behind the lights and the grate that separated the pit from the dark room beyond. The Dark Lord loomed like a shadow, a black hole in the shape of a robed man.

Starkiller's throat worked. It was so dry he could barely talk at all.

"How long this time?"

"Thirteen days. Impressive. "

The compliment was hard-won. It ground out of the triangular grille covering Vader's mouth and fell on Starkiller's ears like dust.

"The Force gives me all I need. "

[...]

The rain and wind scoured him clean. He opened his mouth and felt moisture on his tongue for the first time in thirteen days. After so long in the pit, it tasted like freedom itself.

The Force Unleashed II

( 9:50 )

Also, as noted by the Prima Guide, Starkiller was distracted at the time Vader ragdolled him.

No Caption Provided

Considering these are the only point in the fight where Vader ragdolls Starkiller and he doesn't do so even when ( per the novel ) he is doing EVERYTHING in his power to stop Starkiller from getting to Juno, this suggests he's incapable of even ragdolling a being who struggles to lift a ship if they're not distracted.

So yes, Vader ragdolled Starkiller. A Starkiller who was distracted and running on empty, struggling to accomplish feats that are a barest fraction of what he's capable of at his best.

What he's capable of at his best:

No Caption Provided

( 18:09 ) - Normal shot from the cannon.

( 18:36 ) - Shot powered by Starkiller.

No Caption Provided

Vader Was "Holding Back"

1. Many have claimed Vader was "holding back" in his fight against Starkiller in TFUII based off of Starkiller's statement that he believed Vader was "testing him" and that the Dark Lord seemed "disinterested" in the fight.

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying. He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood-the blood of his fellow clones-and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn't tell."

-- The Force Unleashed II.

The problem with this interpretation is manifold.

2. Vader is stated to be fighting more cautiously then he had the last time they fought, implying he was taking the fight seriously since he was taking precautions and being careful.

3. During the duel, Starkiller tagged Vader's cape 3 times. I find it doubtful that the Dark Lord would've allowed him to land hits that close to his person if he could've prevented it.

4. Vader is actively stated to be assessing Starkiller. Again, fighting cautiously and assessing your opponent contradicts the idea that Vader wasn't taking the engagement seriously.

5. Starkiller is able to create an opening that, if not for a untimely vision which prevented Starkiller from following through with his attack, would have meant Vader's death.

Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before. Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again. Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love. Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now. But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it. The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

-- The Force Unleashed II.

6. The most damning bit of evidence comes near the end of the fight when it confirms Vader is going all out against Starkiller in an effort to prevent him from getting to Juno. They fight evenly despite this.

"They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him."

-- The Force Unleashed II.

Starkiller was "Rage Amped"

Finally, I've seen people attempt to pass off the idea that Starkiller only fought evenly with Vader in the latter half of their fight due to a rage amp. They use a few lines to support their claim ignoring the rest of the passage and the surrounding context which is not quite as supportive of such a stance.

"A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward."

-- The Force Unleashed II.

The passage in full:

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward. Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.

"Get out of my way. "

"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.

"They are real to me. "

Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.

With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go. He and his former Master would dance like marionettes while Juno lay dying-if she wasn't already dead-and the war raged around them, unchecked by this minor tragedy. In the context of the galaxy's suffering, Juno was just one freedom fighter who had died that day-one among many on Kamino alone. Only she hadn't given her life in combat or to save someone less fortunate than herself. She had been snuffed out thanks to the manipulations of one single tortured man, a man whose stubbornness would never allow him to give up, admit fault, or compromise. Starkiller knew nothing about the Dark Lord's origins, but he knew what he had become. More monolith than man, his shadow bestrode the Empire, casting darkness wherever it fell. But what was the source of that scourge? What twisted psychology had brought him to where he stood now-risking his life to prevent the clone of his failed apprentice from coming near the body of the woman he had loved? Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. Where Starkiller had seen hope, where Starkiller had been willing to sacrifice his own destiny to give the woman he had loved a chance to live, his former Master had seen only opportunity for betrayal- for without Juno, what did Starkiller have left to live and fight for? He had no family, friends, or allies. Juno was always intended to be the catalyst for his downfall. Her precipitous attack had merely brought the critical moment forward. Starkiller saw things very differently. It wasn't Juno who had to die to complete Starkiller's training. It was Darth Vader himself, and he had brought this moment upon himself. Had he been content to let Starkiller go, none of this would have happened. Were he dead or freely searching for Juno, either way, he would never have willingly come back to Kamino. He would have gone anywhere else, and never returned. Darth Vader simply wouldn't let go. The massive cloning exercise itself was proof of that. He had raised Starkiller to be a monster, and he would let nothing get in the way of achieving that outcome. Not even Starkiller's own death. Even if it took a thousand reincarnations and the death of trillions of innocent people, Darth Vader would not give up. His persistence, his unwillingness to accept defeat, was both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. All the clones were destroyed. As far as Starkiller knew, he was the last one left-so that was one vision averted, at least. No matter what happened, no version of him would fall foul of Darth Vader's vile plan now. They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked. They broke apart, lightsabers hissing in the ceaseless rain. Lightning split the sky into a thousand jagged shapes. Thunder rolled. Neither had noticed the battle fading around them.

"Let me go, " Starkiller said, sounding much calmer than he felt. His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned. "You've taken everything from me. You must see that I will never serve you now. "

"You are wrong. I have given you everything. "

"This?" He gestured at Juno's inert form. He couldn't tell if she was breathing, but he still held out a distant hope. "You have done nothing for me. "

"It is our destiny to destroy the Emperor. You and me, together. "

There it was, Starkiller thought. That promise again. Surely Darth Vader could see that it meant nothing now, after so many times offered in the past, and none of them fulfilled?

Unless... A deeper layer of understanding presented itself. Unless Darth Vader felt exactly the same as he did. What lengths had the Emperor, Darth Vader's Master, gone to in order to create him? And how far would Darth Vader go to get revenge? To attain his own destiny as a Sith?

"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor, " Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"

Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish? But it was a dream. The Rebels would never trust the Emperor's apprentice, and Vader was making it very clear that he wanted no part of it either. The vehemence of his response left no doubt about that.

-- The Force Unleashed II.

Starkiller undergoes a realization that Vader had planned to kill Juno all along and use her death as a catalyst for his fall to the Darkside. Despite realizing this, despite not knowing whether Juno is alive or dead, Starkiller vows that he will not fall to the Darkside and actually offers Vader a chance to join the Rebel Alliance. These are not the action of a being who have given in to a mindless rage.

Closing Statement

So, next time you see somebody attempting to lowball Galen or Starkiller, refer to this thread.

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i_like_swords

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Very nice.

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Azronger

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I agree about the TFU I stuff, but in TFU II, I disagree that Starkiller's exhaustion before the fight factored into the duel as there were a number of factors at present you aren't taking into account.

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KillBilly

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@azronger said:

I agree about the TFU I stuff, but in TFU II, I disagree that Starkiller's exhaustion before the fight factored into the duel as there were a number of factors at present you aren't taking into account.

Such as?

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Pharoh_Atem

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Solid shit.

Fanon speculation aside, it's clear as day Galen was/is Vader's superior.

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KillBilly

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Solid shit.

Fanon speculation aside, it's clear as day Galen was/is Vader's superior.

Very nice.

Thanks guys.

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Kbroskywalker2

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#7  Edited By Kbroskywalker2

@killbilly said:
@azronger said:

I agree about the TFU I stuff, but in TFU II, I disagree that Starkiller's exhaustion before the fight factored into the duel as there were a number of factors at present you aren't taking into account.

Such as?

->Starkiller was rage amped rotj luke style

-> Vader was vastly pre-prime

And iirc statements about tfu 3's buildup imply vader was "gaming" starkiller the whole time. WHile the game wasn't released, those can be used for holistic potrayal.

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KillBilly

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#9  Edited By KillBilly

@kbroskywalker2: Starkiller was rage amped rotj luke style

He struck out in rage once. After that he vowed that no matter what happened, he would not turn to the Darkside as Vader wanted. Despite not knowing whether Juno is even alive or not by this point, he even offers Vader the chance to join the Rebel Alliance. Those actions don't seem to line up with someone who's given in to a mindless rage.

Vader was vastly pre-prime

Vader had nearly 2 decades of growth by that point. He may have been pre prime but "vastly" is overstating it. And no one claimed Vader was in his prime in those instances.

And iirc statements about tfu 3's buildup imply vader was "gaming" starkiller the whole time. WHile the game wasn't released, those can be used for holistic potrayal.

It contradicts actual continuity that states Vader was going all out against Starkiller, so it's irrelevant.

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#10  Edited By decaf_wizard

@killbilly: I will also add that Galen Marek does not use a style of lightsaber combat that emphasizes on power strikes like Vader does. Of course in a lightsaber combat with Vader we will naturally see things like:

"He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise. A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely."

-- The Force Unleashed.

Vader's lightsaber style, primarily based on Form V, uses powerful downward blows as its literal bread and butter. Its doing exactly what its supposed to be doing and specializes in doing and Starkiller is holding up against it with a form not really suited to dealing with such blows. Bane also used a very similar opener against Zannah in the example you provided, and he also utilized Form V primarily. In fact Zannah was a master of a far more defensive form than Starkiller and Vader is unquestionably a better saber combatant than Bane

In the later showings where he deflected these blows, he did it with "grace and precision" which can be interpreted as him blocking them in a similar way to Ashoka might, not directly head on but instead in a way that more suits his style of combat

I have no doubt Vader is physically strongr than Starkiller but using these examples is more in Starkiller's favour than anything else, as Vader is one of if not the strongest physical lightsaber combatant in Star Wars history. Only Bane, Maul and Grievous would be competition for that title. Being able to not get beaten down by those blows is an impressive strength feat in itself

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KillBilly

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@decaf_wizard: Great analysis. I tend to agree. It seems to me that Bane and Vader were putting greater power behind their initial strikes in order to off balance their opponent.

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#12  Edited By decaf_wizard

@killbilly said:

@decaf_wizard: Great analysis. I tend to agree. It seems to me that Bane and Vader were putting greater power behind their initial strikes in order to off balance their opponent.

I doubt its that they are putting greater power towards their initial strikes, I would tend to more say its the power of those downward blows that Form V specializes in combined with the sheer bulk and strength of Vader (6'7 tall ) and Bane (6'6 tall and stated to be hilariously bulky) that would catch the opponents off guard. As clearly demonstrated with your example Zannah easily blocked the blows but the sheer force of them was enough to force her back. Hillariously enough, rage amped Luke Skywalker used this exact same technique of overhand chops to overwhelm Vader himself onboard the Death Star. He was force onto his knees and blocked easily, but was knocked back and disarmed

This is what the style is fundamentally based on, physically dominating their opponents, with even note being given in the Jedi Path that large Jedi were naturally predisposed to this style. Users of other styles are not going to beat a natural form V user in the department of power attacks. A Form II or Shien user (Dooku and Starkiller/Ahsoka respectively) might deflect or block their blows with fancy moves, a Form III user (Obi-Wan) might weather the onslaught and a Juyo user might overwhelm them (Galen, Maul), none will beat them in the aspect of power attacks and if they try to meet them head on without a similarly powerful form or heavily defensive form it will likely result in what we see with Galen and Vader.

Just look. Dooku, who at this time was decently superior to Anakin and significantly so in saber combat had issues with his power attacks when he tried to directly block them

Loading Video...

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#13  Edited By KillBilly

@decaf_wizard: Well, for me, the fact that Zannah and Galen seemingly managed to deal with Vader and Bane's assaults just fine after the initial blow, despite the likelihood of their respective opponents applying the same or a similar move sometime throughout their fight, would indicate to me that their respective opponents intentionally increased their augmentation beyond it's standard level at the offset in order to off balance an opponent who generally believed themselves to be familiar with their capabilities. But I can appreciate where you're coming from.

As for Dooku and Anakin, even by this point in the Clone Wars I feel that Anakin is on or approaching Dooku's level in regards to Force power imo. Same goes for how the two compare as duelists by this point, considering Anakin is stated to be far above him as a lightsaber combatant by RotS ( Anakin being a 9 and Dooku being an 8 within Gillard's tier system ). Combine that with the fact that Anakin's main form is strength oriented and that Dooku's Makashi is unable to generate enough force to meet Anakin's Djem So head to head and, well, you get the result that we see in the video you posted above.

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#14  Edited By decaf_wizard

@killbilly: Yea I edited to include a video example of what I was talking of, three times by my count. When Dooku blocked indirectly, he was fine. When he blocked head on, he had issues against his noted inferior in Anakin

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KillBilly

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@decaf_wizard: Is Anakin noted to be his inferior by that point in the Clone Wars?

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decaf_wizard

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#16  Edited By decaf_wizard

@killbilly said:

@decaf_wizard: Is Anakin noted to be his inferior by that point in the Clone Wars?

Yes in my opinion that there is a decent amount of supplementary evidence that at that point in the Clone Wars to point to Anakin still as Dooku's inferior, although around this time was also a turning point

I believe one or two seasons before Anakin and Obi-Wan were being fought by Dooku at the same time. But the point is to demonstrate that if you try to go against a natural Form V user in the area of power attacks, you will have a bad time unless you are one or I suppose practice a particularly defensive form and even then you have to be particularly skilled. Like Obi Wan Notice how he always blocks the blow fairly high in the strike or fairly low on the lightsaber so that it doesn't have as much power behind it. He clearly knows Anakin's style and how to block these attacks with Form III

Loading Video...

In my previous example, those were the ONLY strokes that seemed to drive Dooku back for a second when he tried to or was forced to head on block them in that encounter

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KillBilly

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#17  Edited By KillBilly

@decaf_wizard: I believe I probably hold a differing opinion on how Dooku and Anakin compare by that point in the war, but fair enough.

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TheVivas

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Uh what.

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decaf_wizard

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KillBilly

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#20  Edited By KillBilly
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#21  Edited By decaf_wizard

@killbilly: But yea I suppose I can summarise my extremely long rant as "unless your damn good at Soresu or Djem So, don't try to take head on attacks from Djem So users" and that its really not Galen's fault that he faltered against one of the best users of Form V physically when he used a wombo combo involving his trademark form's trademark technique. The fact Galen withstood it is a feat in and of itself

Maybe I should make a Form V respect thread.......

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KillBilly

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#22  Edited By KillBilly

@decaf_wizard: Go for it. I'd love to read something like that. Imo, we don't have enough in depth analyses of subjects outside of individual character's abilities in the SW community.

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decaf_wizard

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#23  Edited By decaf_wizard

@killbilly: Actually the only example I can find of somebody casually withstanding what appears to be a Djem So downward stroke from a noted user is Sidious. Which says something in and of itself

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KillBilly

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#24  Edited By KillBilly

@decaf_wizard: Yep. That sounds about right. If anybody could shrug off a power blow from a Djem So specialist it'd be Sidious.

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TheVivas

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@killbilly: I guess some of the claims you used for this thread. I’ve never seen people claim that.

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Kbroskywalker2

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[quote]He struck out in rage once. After that he vowed that no matter what happened, he would not turn to the Darkside as Vader wants. Despite not knowing whether Juno is even alive or not by this point, he even offers Vader the chance to join the Rebel Alliance. Those actions don't seem to line up with someone who's given in to a mindless rage.[/quote]

Could you be specific as to which point in the fight this was? I also wonder if @greysentinel365 wants to dispute your interpretation of the fight as he did last time.

Vader had nearly 2 decades of growth by that point. He may have been pre prime but "vastly" is overstating it.

Hardly. He grew far more powerful as of ESB in 3 years and had another 3 years after that for his peak. You said "was/is" so i felt this needed to be clarified.

It contradicts actual continuity that states Vader was going all out against Starkiller, so it's irrelevant.

Quote me please, subjective narration shall not suffice.

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KillBilly

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#27  Edited By KillBilly

@kbroskywalker2: Could you be specific as to which point in the fight this was?

I edited the OP to include the entire passage whith the relevant sections highlighted so as to address the rage argument. You can find it above.

Hardly. He grew far more powerful as of ESB in 3 years and had another 3 years after that for his peak.

He grew far more formidable* not far more powerful. I only make that distinction because the quote you're referencing comes from an article about Vader's lightsaber skill featured in Fightsaber. And again, I never said he didn't grow more formidable. I simply believe the nearly 2 decades of growth he experienced from RotS to TFUII outweighed the 6 years of growth between TFUII and RotJ.

You said "was/is" so i felt this needed to be clarified.

Not sure what you mean by this statement. I never claimed TFU or TFUII was Vader's prime if that's what you're suggesting.

Quote me please, subjective narration shall not suffice.

Of course. Here's a third person description of events from the novel.

"They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him."

-- The Force Unleashed II.

As I'm sure you're aware, doing everything in your power to accomplish an objective, by definition, means you're going all out.

@thevivas said:

@killbilly: I guess some of the claims you used for this thread. I’ve never seen people claim that.

Ah, you'd be surprised man. These are some of the most common arguments I see with Galen/Starkiller lowballers.

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WollfMyth209

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That's actually pretty nice. Good job, man. Definitely paints a clearer picture on how Galen and 'Killer are meant to be Vader's superiors.

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Azronger

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I still disagree. Vader in TFU II is fully capable of stomping Starkiller with the Force.

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KillBilly

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#30  Edited By KillBilly
@wollfmyth209 said:

That's actually pretty nice. Good job, man. Definitely paints a clearer picture on how Galen and 'Killer are meant to be Vader's superiors.

Thanks man.

@azronger said:

I still disagree. Vader in TFU II is fully capable of stomping Starkiller with the Force.

Why do you think so?

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jashugan

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where's the city busting/destroying/encompassing explosion?

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Richard96

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Solid job. However, galen’s clone isn’t vastly above TFU 2 Vader. Vader had the chance to kill him when he had Galen in his grab (after having disarmed him), but he preferred to throw him away. Besides, Starkiller was clearly rage amped in the second part of the fight.

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KillBilly

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#34  Edited By KillBilly

@richard96: I address the rage argument at the bottom of the post. And having the opportunity to kill someone and not taking it doesn't change the effort Vader was putting into the fight prior to that point.

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jashugan

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@killbilly: Your thread is on the first page, so no, I'm not stalking you. I have played this game & it's sequel (they both suck), KOTOR I & II, Jedi Academy & Jedi Knight. I have watched Star Wars I - VII, clone wars & parts of Tartakovsky's Clone Wars. I have good enough knowledge and have experienced many Star Wars works

What makes you think I don't like star Wars? Because I don't share your opinion that they're Massively Hypersonic+ casual city busters? This isn't answering my question though, I'd prefer you answer it.

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Richard96

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@killbilly:

Rage doesn’t necessarily has to be mindless. It can be focused, like TPM Kenobi with maul. The game cutscenes have Galen being decisively rage amped after Vader pushes juno, come on.

“And having the opportunity to kill someone and not taking it doesn't change the effort Vader was putting into the fight prior to that point.”

That wasn’t my point. My point is that Vader is very close to starkiller, given a full out for the kill Vader would have killed starkiller in that instance.

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KillBilly

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#38  Edited By KillBilly

@jashugan: If you'd bothered to read even the first line of the OP you'd know your question wasn't relevant to what I was talking about. Me bringing up the feat that you referenced in this thread would serve no point since it doesn't add anything to the topic.

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jashugan

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@killbilly: first sentence is about misconceptions in the game. Apparently I have a "misconception" about Star killer being able to destroy/encompass/bust a city. I would've thought you'd address this.

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KillBilly

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#40  Edited By KillBilly

@richard96 said:

@killbilly:

Rage doesn’t necessarily has to be mindless. It can be focused, like TPM Kenobi with maul. The game cutscenes have Galen being decisively rage amped after Vader pushes juno, come on.

“And having the opportunity to kill someone and not taking it doesn't change the effort Vader was putting into the fight prior to that point.”

That wasn’t my point. My point is that Vader is very close to starkiller, given a full out for the kill Vader would have killed starkiller in that instance.

Your interpretation of the cutscenes is at odds with the novel which has Starkiller refusing to use the Darkside and offering Vader a chance to join him. You're free to hold the opinion that you want but those aren't the actions of someone who is enraged whether that be a mindless or focused one imo.

Yes. But this doesn't demonstrate parity between them. As I noted, Starkiller was, at a baseline, so low on energy he struggled to accomplish feats that took a fraction of the energy of feats he performed casually at his best. Vader's performance against Starkiller while he was in this state cannot be used to compare Vader to Starkiller when he was at his peak. This is just common sense.

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KillBilly

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#41  Edited By KillBilly

@jashugan: Lots of people have misconceptions about a lot of things. I'm not going to bother to address the opinions of every person that takes up a nonsensical position, only the misconceptions that seem to be rather common amongst the community. Now, if you could gather a group of half a dozen individuals that share your belief, maybe I'd consider adding it to this thread. Until then though, your single dissension isn't worth my time.

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jashugan

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@killbilly: but you did bother to make a thread about misconceptions of said character and also spent time showing "starkiller at his best" you'd think you'd also want to show one of his best feats. You know, his supposed city busting/destroying/encompassing feat.

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AmethystGravity

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Interesting analysis. I'm still not so sure the Nebulon-B cannon's scaling is entirely substantial, but that's a side point. Also, the comparison to Bane's Djem-so (Form V for the win!) is an interesting explanation.

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KillBilly

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#45  Edited By KillBilly

@jashugan: That's not one of his best feats honestly. He's accomplished ones that are far better so it was unnecessary to list or elaborate on since few people take issue with its validity.

@amethystgravity said:

Interesting analysis. I'm still not so sure the Nebulon-B cannon's scaling is entirely substantial, but that's a side point. Also, the comparison to Bane's Djem-so (Form V for the win!) is an interesting explanation.

Thanks man.

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@azronger said:

I still disagree. Vader in TFU II is fully capable of stomping Starkiller with the Force.

^

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SirFizzWhizz

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#48  Edited By SirFizzWhizz

@killbilly said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Why do you think so?

Vader already matched Starkiller in most f the fights, and still has as good if not better feats. Many of Starkiller feats are out of context or wanked when in reality they are not as good as one might think. Starkiller is Vader level at best.

Also not sure how you can claim anakin is Dooku's inferior before their fight in ROTS. Anakin grew in power vastly after Ahsoka left the order Season 5, and Anakin was matching Dooku fine in the one episode to the point Dooku had to always run away and needed Magnaguards to interfere.

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KillBilly

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#49  Edited By KillBilly

@sirfizzwhizz: Vader already matched Starkiller in most f the fights

Well, I kinda went over that. In their first fight, Vader lost fighting semi-evenly prior to Galen denying the Darkside and letting go of his hatred for Vader. In their second, Starkiller was exhausted prior to engaging Vader.

and still has as good if not better feats. Many of Starkiller feats are out of context or wanked when in reality they are not as good as one might think.

You really think so? I'd be curious to hear which ones you think are better. There's only two I can personally think of that MIGHT be better.

Remember, Galen and Starkiller have feats like:

1. Powering the engines of a hyperdrive engine.

2. Force pushing hundreds of Force resistant droids.

3. Creating an artificial hurricane and groundquake with a continuous blast.

4. Buckling a dock with a Force push.

5. Sweeping away a small army with a gesture.

6. Bringing down the supports of an orbital superstructure ( the skyhook on Kashyyyk ).

7. Powering a cannon blast that brought down a structure which dwarfed ISD's.

8. Guiding down a falling Star Destroyer.

9. Destroying 150 meters of frigate and shielding himself from the resulting explosion.

Note that none of the feats I listed are exaggerated. All of them bar number 7 come directly from the book.

Also not sure how you can claim anakin is Dooku's inferior before their fight in ROTS.

I don't believe I claimed that anywhere... In fact, I believe I said the opposite.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@killbilly: I debunk and counter argue the wanked feats in a Anakin vs Starkiller thread. Dont care to go over it all again. Every feat the SK fans gave, I looked it over and showed why its not that impressive and why Anakin had feats that match.

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