Star Wars: Finn Respect Thread

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Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

I was raised to do one thing, but I've got nothing to fight for.

-- Finn

No Caption Provided

Note:This is best viewed in blog format.

Accolades

Captain Phasma consistently singles out Finn as one of the best of the First Order Stormtroopers:

"All of you should take your example from FN-2187," Captain Phasma said.

Before the Awakening

"You have great potential, 2187. You are officer corps material. "

Before the Awakening

After the second multiforce battle simulation, Captain Phasma singled out FN-2187 for praise in front of everyone who had participated. She had him stand and face the debriefing-and there were hundreds of them there that time, all the pilots and stormtroopers and instructors; it felt like everyone. She talked about his skill and his efficiency and his ruthlessness, how all the trainees could learn something from watching FN-2187.

Before the Awakening

At last she said, "FN-2187, your targeting was exemplary. According to the simulation, you fired your weapon only thirty-six times, scoring kills with thirty-five of those. You deployed one explosive, which resulted in the achieving of the objective and another six enemies killed."

Before the Awakening

She sighed. She'd had such hope for FN-2187. He had shown such remarkable promise. He had shown the capacity to be special.

Before the Awakening

FN-2187 proves to be a highly skilled stormtrooper -- at least during simulations.

The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

While FN-2187 performs at the top of his combat classes, the ever-present First Order propaganda never really takes hold of his heart.

The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

This is notable as the First Order Stormtroopers are a symbol of strength, skill and power:

He could imagine himself as they saw him, the immaculate white armor, the symbol of unity and strength and power and skill that was a First Order stormtrooper.

Before the Awakening

Finn is considered one of the best Stormtroopers ever seen by many of his peers:

He[Finn] was, as far as the training cadre and his peers were concerned, one of the best stormtroopers anyone had ever seen.

Before the Awakening

Physical capabilities

Durability

Finn tanks a hit to the jaw from a sword hilt:

By that point FN-2187's mind was racing-thinking about Slip and Nines and Zeroes, and Phasma watching him-and it wasn't really a surprise when the world burst into a flare of white, when the hilt of the sword connected with his jaw, when he could taste his own blood.

Before the Awakening

Finn is unharmed by close range explosions from TIE-fighters:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
The Force Awakens Graphic Novel

Strength

Finn is trained in unarmed combat, which implies a good deal of strength:

Previously, FN-2187 and the others had trained in hand-to-hand combat, working in close quarters with fists and feet.

Before the Awakening

Finn manages to take control of the wrist of Nines, one of the best of the First Order Stormtroopers. Finn then proceeds to land a hit with his elbow and knock Nines back:

FN-2187 dropped his shield altogether and used his free hand to take control of Nines's wrist. They spun in place, and FN-2187 slammed his shoulder into Nines's chest, sending him off balance long enough to create distance between them.

Before the Awakening

Speed

Finn dodges blaster fire by tumbling and rolling forward, then proceeds to shoot down two enemies:

Just as the soldier opened fire, FN-2187 dove forward, tumbled into a freshly made crater, and lay flat for a second before popping up on his elbows. He fired twice before dropping down again, then rolled to his right and repeated, firing three times. He was pleased to see that he'd taken out two of the enemy.

Before the Awakening

Finn manages to roll to the ground and throw a grenade before Republic soldiers could get a shot off:

Just before they had their shot, he dropped low, sliding feetfirst toward the edge of the bunker-one hand holding his rifle against his chest, the other going for one of the grenades on his belt. He rolled at the last moment, thumbing the activator hard as he collided sideways with the bunker wall and then, in one smooth motion, bringing his hand up and tossing the grenade through the opening into the bunker. Almost instantly there was the sound and the flash of the explosive detonating. He felt it echo, the vibration running through his armor.

Before the Awakening

Finn speedblitzes two First Order Stormtroopers, albeit he did surprise them by wielding a lightsaber:

It made an excellent target for the stormtroopers who opened fire on them. Taking cover, Han and Chewbacca returned fire. No one noticed the troopers who had come up behind them-except Finn. Charging, he surprised one trooper with the glowing blade of the lightsaber, then another.

The Force Awakens novelisation

The troopers were as startled as Finn when he sliced through armor, bone, and flesh. Two he cut down immediately.

The Force Awakens junior novelisation

Finn dodges blaster bolts:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
The Force Awakens Graphic novelisation

Marksmanship

Captain Phasma notes Finn's targeting is exemplary:

At last she said, "FN-2187, your targeting was exemplary."

Before the Awakening

Finn shoots down two Republic soldiers while dodging their blaster fire:

Just as the soldier opened fire, FN-2187 dove forward, tumbled into a freshly made crater, and lay flat for a second before popping up on his elbows. He fired twice before dropping down again, then rolled to his right and repeated, firing three times. He was pleased to see that he'd taken out two of the enemy.

Before the Awakening

Finn shoots down several Republic soldiers, firing three times until the last of the enemy soldiers dropped:

Now 2187 could take his time. He sighted carefully, then stroked the trigger on his blaster rifle three times in succession. The last of the enemy soldiers dropped.

Before the Awakening

Finn shot down 35 Republic Soldiers with 36 shots:

"According to the simulation, you fired your weapon only thirty-six times, scoring kills with thirty-five ofthose."

Before the Awakening

Training/Knowledge

The training of First Order Stormtroopers is a more well-rounded combat education than the training of the past, i.e. Clone and Stormtroopers:

Out of necessity, the First Order enforces a far more regimented approach to training to ensure excellence across its reduced stormtrooper ranks. First Order stormtrooper training emphasizes improvisation and counter-insurgency operations, as well as guerrilla tactics. No longer tasked with ensuring loyalty to a dominant galactic goverment, these soldiers instead need to know how to claw their way back to power. This mind-set has created a more well-rounded combat education than training in the past.

Star Wars The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

Finn was trained from birth:

FN-2187 was trained since birth to serve the First Order as a stormtrooper, but a skirmish on Jakku awakened his conscience and drove him down a different path, one that proved both heroic and dangerous.

StarWars.com Databank: Finn

Finn is trained to be a super soldier:

Finn grew up known only as FN-2187, a product of the First Order’s quest to create super-soldiers by training them from birth.

StarWars.com Databank: Finn

Finn and other fellow First Order Stormtroopers studied older, historical fights(in particular the Clone Wars) to gain greater tactical ability:

For the better part of a week, they studied and were repeatedly tested on different historical battles, many from the Clone Wars, some even earlier.

Before the Awakening

THE FOOT SOLDIERS of the First Order draw upon the heritage of the armored infantry units that blazed across the battlefields of the Clone Wars, in the final years of the Old Republic.

Star Wars The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

Finn and his squad took part in 2 or 3 training simulations per day, and this was described as a game that Finn played well:

Whatever the reasons for it, whether Zeroes could be believed or not, their training did accelerate. They were in the simulators two, three times a day, sometimes running combat missions as a single fire-team, sometimes working in concert with the other members of a larger squad. Twice they participated in multiforce battles, base assaults where their simulator was tied to the action in fifty others, all of them running at the same time. They were massive engagements, with full air support, advancing armor, even orbital bombardment from capital ships. TIEs screamed overhead, engaging Republic X-wings in dogfights that streaked through the simulated skies.

FN-2187 found himself actually enjoying those simulations, so much so it almost surprised him. The simulations were simple. The stormtroopers had a clear objective, they knew who the enemy was, and honestly, as serious as the simulations could be, they were ultimately just games, ones he knew he played well.

Before the Awakening

Finn is trained in unarmed combat:

Previously, FN-2187 and the others had trained in hand-to-hand combat, working in close quarters with fists and feet.

Before the Awakening

Finn is trained to use a resornator mace and a shield, and learns quite quickly:

They began drills, basic moves-stance, attack, parry-and then repeated, over and over again, until FN-2187 could feel perspiration running down his back inside the bodysuit he wore beneath his armor. When they'd finished, his arms ached from the effort of maintaining the mace and shield, but there was a sense of pleasure, too, the delight of learning something new and learning it quickly and well.

Before the Awakening

These weapons are made out of phrik alloy and are lightsaber resistant:

The instructors demonstrated the use of each weapon, the vibro-axes and shock staffs and force pikes and resonator maces, elaborating at length on the respective strengths and weaknesses of each and when and how to employ them to best effect. They explained the composite alloys used to make the weapons, how some of the equipment was strong enough to block even a lightsaber.

Before the Awakening

Combative skil/Tactical ability

Finn manages to stomp Zeroes, one of the best of the First Order Stormtroopers who had defeated all enemies prior, in a spar:

The person who remained longest on the floor was Zeroes. He went four bouts without falling, and then FN-2187 was called and ended his run. The force pike gave Zeroes reach and he went in strong, but FN-2187 had his shield and he quickly discovered that, when he angled it properly, he could redirect a jab in almost any direction he wanted. Zeroes tried attacking four times-low, low, low, and then high, driving the pike with both hands toward FN-2187's heart.

FN-2187 blocked, angling the shield to his right so that when the blow glanced off, Zeroes was off balance and overextended. FN-2187 spun on his toes in the opposite direction, brought the mace in his other hand around low, and caught Zeroes just above the knee, sending him sprawling.

"Win!" shouted one of the instructors.

Before the Awakening

Finn humiliates another Stormtrooper from the FO group in three seconds:

It was the start of FN-2187's own streak, however. The next trainee to go at him was from a different cadre, the FO group, also armed with a mace and shield. The fight lasted three seconds. FN-2187 feinted an overhead blow with the mace, and when his opponent brought his shield up to parry it, he hit him instead with his own shield and knocked him flat.

Before the Awakening

Finn defeats two other Stormtroopers from the FO designation in less than a minute, despite just prior taking part in two other spars:

His next two opponents were also FO designations, another with a force pike and one with a shield and sword. The second of those took the longest, almost a full minute, before FN-2187 managed to knock away his opponent's shield, and then it was a simple matter of waiting for an opening and striking at the right time.

Before the Awakening

Finn, despite taking part in several spars prior, manages to defeat an enraged Nines, who was a highly skilled First Order Stormtrooper:

Then it was Nines's turn, with his vibro-axe and shield, and if FN-2187 had thought Zeroes was angry when he'd lost, Nines seemed to start out that way. Nines began with a swipe straight at FN-2187's head, and the next thing 2187 knew Nines had rammed into him, body to body, their armor clattering as he was pushed back along the training floor. It took all his strength to keep his feet, to keep from giving Nines another opening with his axe, and finally FN-2187 dropped his shield altogether and used his free hand to take control of Nines's wrist. They spun in place, and FN-2187 slammed his shoulder into Nines's chest, sending him off balance long enough to create distance between them. Before he could recover his discarded shield, though, Nines was launching at him again, and FN-2187 was using his mace with both hands, knocking away Nines's attacks as quickly as they came. He could feel his heart pounding inside the armor, the echo of his breathing as it grew labored. The thought occurred to him, unexpected and shocking, that Nines thought this was real, not an exercise, not training.

The vibro-axe fell again, slashing at his arm, and FN-2187 skipped back. The two of them began to circle. Nines feinted with the axe, then swung the shield and nearly caught him in the side, but FN-2187 managed to get the mace up to parry just in time. He saw the follow-up coming before Nines launched it, knew the axe was slashing in again, and that time, instead of stepping away from it, FN-2187 stepped forward and under Nines's guard. The mace was in the wrong position, its heavy head toward the floor, so FN-2187 used its pommel instead, smashing it into Nines's helmet. The other trooper went sailing onto his back. He laid still, dazed for a moment.

Before the Awakening

Finn casually defeats Slip, although Slip was somewhat injured from a prior spar:

Slip lunged, and FN-2187 blocked him easily, sending the tip of the pike off his shield and to the left. Slip followed, unable to stop himself in time, almost at full reach and obviously off balance. FN-2187 stepped back, giving him room to recover. Again he glanced at the instructors. One of them, he thought, was frowning.

FN-2187 swung his mace in an easy arc, putting no real power behind it, all but telegraphing the move. Slip barely got his parry in place in time and failed entirely to launch a riposte. They circled. Another glance at the instructors, and both were frowning. Slip tried to flip his grip on the pike and made a staff-end swing that FN-2187 ducked before he'd even thought about it. He had another opening and almost took it but for some reason found himself unable to.

It struck him, then, that if he were to lose, Slip would be left to face whoever went next.

It struck him, too, that whoever Slip fought next wouldn't care that he was already hurt, that another injury might be too much for him.

You're one of us, FN-2187 thought.

He attacked with the mace, an upswing that Slip blocked but without any strength behind it. The parry blew through Slip's guard and sent his hands and the pike high, almost over his head, leaving his middle exposed. FN-2187 stepped forward, leading with his shield, pressing rather than striking while at the same time bringing his left leg forward, behind Slip's right. It took almost no discernible pressure; suddenly, Slip was on his back and FN-2187 was standing over him, and the instructor was shouting.

"Win!"

Before the Awakening

Finn manages to briefly contend with Kylo Ren, although Kylo was emotionally hindered, physically injured and was mostly toying. Despite this, Finn actually manages to faint weakness to land a hit on Kylo:

Despite his fear, Finn raised the beam to defend himself. Ren lunged, struck-and Finn parried. Shards of light flew, illuminating the snow and the surrounding vegetation. Drawing back slightly, Ren considered his unexpectedly determined opponent, then resumed his assault with a vengeance.

Finn blocked him again and again, once letting the other man's beam slide against his own and harmlessly off to one side. He counterattacked, to no avail. The longer the contest continued, the stronger Ren seemed to become. It was as if he was enjoying the challenge. Feeding upon it.

At least, it appeared so until Finn parried, swung, and unexpectedly stabbed, the tip of his lightsaber beam grazing Ren's arm. That made it more than a challenge. Taking a step back, Ren reconsidered his opponent. When he closed the distance between them anew, it was with a purpose that had been previously lacking. Expecting an execution, he had found a contest. Now he had been touched. It was time for play to end.

Advancing relentlessly, he was driven by something that Finn could not even sense, far less counter. Still the ex-trooper fought back, until Ren landed a blow that cut across Finn's chest and sent the lightsaber flying from his hand. It landed in the snow six meters distant.

It was over.

The Force Awakens novelisation

Finn blocked and parried the first flurry of Ren's attacks. Ground snow melted as the tips of their blades swooshed low. Finn could not find an opening in Ren's defenses, despite the man's injury. Ren drove Finn back, seeming to draw strength from Finn's frustration. Training had taught Finn to bait an opponent into thinking he had the advantage. Finn parried weakly, then disengaged and stabbed. His blade tip sheared Ren's arm. It didn't do much more than sizzle his opponent's skin. But Ren backpedaled, reassessing Finn.

Holding the blue blade in front of him, Finn stared at Kylo Ren, ready for anything.

But he was not ready for the fury of the attack Ren launched at him. It was as if the previous back and forth had been child's play. Ren's swings flew at Finn fast and strong, pushing him back.

Ren's blade gashed open Finn's chest. Finn fell back, and the momentum of his last swing threw the lightsaber of Luke Skywalker well away from him. He saw the blue blade dissolve back into the hilt, and then his universe turned dark.

The Force Awakens junior novelisation

https://youtu.be/FjEtMRZ-cH0?t=46

-- The Force Awakens

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The Force Awakens Graphic novel

Thanks for reading
Thanks for reading

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#1 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2 Posted by i_like_swords (26198 posts) - - Show Bio

Fantastic job, Wollf. Interested in seeing this grow.

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#3 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Thanks, 'Swords. It's about time TFA characters start getting some respect, tbh.

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#4 Posted by ricochicomalico (253 posts) - - Show Bio

Fantastic work, love Finn. Looking forward to what else this guys shows us.

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#5 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

Amazing work!

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#6 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Fallschirmjager (23432 posts) - - Show Bio

I like how all of this is almost entirely left out in the movies where Finn is never mentioned being special whatsoever, defected after his first battle in which he never fired a shot, was previously said to have sanitation duties and got his butt whopped by another storm troopers

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#8 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager:

The movie itself didn't make note of Finn that much, but the novel of TFA and Before the Awakening clearly build him up as highly capable. He only lost to another Stromtrooper of the First Order because he was wielding an unfamiliar weapon he himself admitted he didn't know how to use. Otherwise, he's bested the top of the First Order when he had weapons he's familiar with, i.e. a blaster or a mace.

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#9 Posted by kgb725 (18728 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish they said he was this good in the film

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#10 Posted by deactivated-5c508820920c0 (887 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice to see more and more non-force wielders get some RT's within the CV SW community. Enjoyed Finn as a character and it's great to see that he is also a capable combatant as well. Nice work!

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#11 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

Have you seen this accolade for Finn?

"He was, as far as the training cadre and his peers were concerned, one of the best stormtroopers anyone had ever seen."

Seems a bit hyperbolic but it shows how other people think about him

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#13 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: Is that from the novel? I think it might've been hyperbolic, but it's worth an add.

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#14 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: It's from "Before the awakening", should have added the source :)

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#15 Posted by Soup95 (277 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice work my friend

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#16 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@soup95: Thanks.

It's from "Before the awakening", should have added the source :)

Huh. Must've missed it. I'll add it in ASAP.

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#17 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Brightsteel (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

Good job!

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#20 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by AmethystGravity (2314 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice work!

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#23 Posted by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't possibly see how getting a lightsaber run across your back (or chest) is a feat of durability when he showed no more resistance to it than any other person.

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#24 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice work!

Thanks.

I can't possibly see how getting a lightsaber run across your back (or chest) is a feat of durability when he showed no more resistance to it than any other person.

Because slashes like that can usually kill people, whereas Finn survived.

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#25 Posted by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

@amethystgravity said:

Nice work!

Thanks.

@erik_soong said:

I can't possibly see how getting a lightsaber run across your back (or chest) is a feat of durability when he showed no more resistance to it than any other person.

Because slashes like that can usually kill people, whereas Finn survived.

He didn't survive because of anything he did or because of his durability. He survived because it wasn't a killing blow...

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#26 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio
@wollfmyth209 said:
@amethystgravity said:

Nice work!

Thanks.

@erik_soong said:

I can't possibly see how getting a lightsaber run across your back (or chest) is a feat of durability when he showed no more resistance to it than any other person.

Because slashes like that can usually kill people, whereas Finn survived.

He didn't survive because of anything he did or because of his durability. He survived because it wasn't a killing blow...

It actually was, given that Kylo expressed the wish to kill him. Granted, the blow wasn't as deep as a usual lightsaber cut, but it was enough for lesser beings to die from it.

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#27 Posted by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong said:
@wollfmyth209 said:
@amethystgravity said:

Nice work!

Thanks.

@erik_soong said:

I can't possibly see how getting a lightsaber run across your back (or chest) is a feat of durability when he showed no more resistance to it than any other person.

Because slashes like that can usually kill people, whereas Finn survived.

He didn't survive because of anything he did or because of his durability. He survived because it wasn't a killing blow...

It actually was, given that Kylo expressed the wish to kill him. Granted, the blow wasn't as deep as a usual lightsaber cut, but it was enough for lesser beings to die from it.

No. Finn is no super human. He doesn't have an enlarged vertebral column like a Klingon. When two people get hit by a car and one of them dies, we don't assume the other has super human durability. The durability that Finn would need to resist a lightsaber cut is absurd, much like the reasoning that he didn't die and therefore has some level of enhanced durability is absurd. Where was it stated that he should be dead or that any lesser man would be dead?

You are just putting every action scene he has in this thread and calling it a feat. You are flirting with fanboyism with that kind of logic and run the risk of costing yourself credibility where it concerns Finn. I encourage you to use rational thought here.

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#28 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong: No. Finn is no super human. He doesn't have an enlarged vertebral column like a Klingon. When two people get hit by a car and one of them dies, we don't assume the other has super human durability.

I never argued he's superhuman(although, he was trained from birth to be a super soldier), but he's at least peak human.

And your example is, well, ridiculous. The second person may have been in a more favourable position during the crash, may have been hit by less force, may have been hit so just some of his bones break, but nothing more, may have been given treatment in time, etc. But if he does survive a similar hit with less injuries, it's safe to say he's more durable, since not every person has the same amount of durability.

The durability that Finn would need to resist a lightsaber cut is absurd, much like the reasoning that he didn't die and therefore has some level of enhanced durability is absurd. Where was it stated that he should be dead or that any lesser man would be dead?

Ah, well, you're not understanding me. I'm not saying Finn can resist a lightsaber cut because that is absurd, just that him enduring that when similar cuts have killed people before(well, in the EU anyways) is impressive. I mean, the cut clearly wasn't superficial, hence the term "gash", which means "long, deep cut".

You are just putting every action scene he has in this thread and calling it a feat. You are flirting with fanboyism with that kind of logic and run the risk of costing yourself credibility where it concerns Finn. I encourage you to use rational thought here.

That... isn't even an action scene, though. But point taken. I'll take it out when the last issue of the TFA comic comes out and I make the last addition to this RT(until Episode VIII).

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#29 Posted by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

I never argued he's superhuman(although, he was trained from birth to be a super soldier), but he's at least peak human.

Where was it stated that he was peak anything? Are you so enamored with Finn that you jettison all logic?

And your example is, well, ridiculous. The second person may have been in a more favourable position during the crash, may have been hit by less force, may have been hit so just some of his bones break, but nothing more, may have been given treatment in time, etc. But if he does survive a similar hit with less injuries, it's safe to say he's more durable, since not every person has the same amount of durability.

What is ridiculous is how you can't see how my example highlights the absurdity in your logical reasoning. When it comes to a car crash, you seem fully capable of making logical assumptions; the second person may have been in a better position, experienced less force, etc. But when it comes to Finn and the fact that he managed to not die from having a lightsaber run across his back, you logical reasoning is reduced to, "AH MY GURD SO MUCH DURABILITY!". Literally the same reasoning used in the car crash can be applied here; Finn could have been far enough away, it wasn't actually a killing blow, etc. There are no vital organs on the back. None. If his spinal cord was severed, he would be paralyzed. Period. If the cut was deep enough to affect his heart or lungs, he would be simply dead. This isn't a durability feat.

Ah, well, you're not understanding me. I'm not saying Finn can resist a lightsaber cut because that is absurd, just that him enduring that when similar cuts have killed people before(well, in the EU anyways) is impressive. I mean, the cut clearly wasn't superficial, hence the term "gash", which means "long, deep cut".

Enduring? He was out cold when the lightsaber hit him. This is neither a durability feat (which you have it listed under in the OP), nor is it an endurance feat, because he was instantly rendered unconscious from the pain. The cut he received was not fatal. It's a cut along the back which was superficial enough that his spinal cord remains intact. No one would die from a cut like that except perhaps from infection or dehydration. He was recovered and treated, so neither are possible and therefore neither can be measured.

That... isn't even an action scene, though.

You don't think a fight with Ren is an action scene? I'm at a loss for words.

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#30 Posted by Hyperion_X (366 posts) - - Show Bio

I just wanna know if Finn is force-sensitive or not. Several scenes seem to play upon that conclusion

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#31 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong: I have no idea why you're leading me down a useless tangent when I said I'll remove it when I update this.

And yeah, Finn is anywhere from peak to superhuman. His feats, his accolades and his hype support that notion. Just arguing he's a run-of-the-mill guy is ludicrous and jettison of all logic.

You don't think a fight with Ren is an action scene? I'm at a loss for words.

The fight, yeah. The one second of Finn getting gashed by a lightsaber? No. Maybe work on that reading comprehension. :up:

@hyperion_x said:

I just wanna know if Finn is force-sensitive or not. Several scenes seem to play upon that conclusion

No, he isn't. No scene plays upon that.

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#32 Posted by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

I have no idea why you're leading me down a useless tangent when I said I'll remove it when I update this.

It isn't a useless tangent. You are saying something about a character that is factually incorrect. I am correcting you flawed understanding of the character. That is the exact opposite of useless.

And yeah, Finn is anywhere from peak to superhuman.

No, he isn't.

His feats, his accolades and his hype support that notion. Just arguing he's a run-of-the-mill guy is ludicrous and jettison of all logic.

No, his feats are decidedly average. You are exaggerating the quality of feats because you are overly impressed with him. Which is exactly why you have to make an edit to your OP now, by your very own admission.

The fight, yeah. The one second of Finn getting gashed by a lightsaber? No. Maybe work on that reading comprehension. :up:

I think I have illustrated that my reading comprehension far exceeds your own. Maybe that is why you are so clearly threatened and have started to lash out. Your understanding of what an action scene is also critically erroneous. A fight is an action scene. The final stroke of a blade that happens at the conclusion of the fight is still part of that same action scene. But even if that was not the case and I was the one who misunderstood, you would still be the cause of that error, not my reading comprehension. You gave me a sentence fragment. How is it my fault that I failed to understand your incomplete thought? The obvious answer is that it isn't and you are behaving like a slighted child. My feedback was done to help your thread be a reliable source for the character. You are choosing to take that feedback as a personal affront. You should be willing to accept feedback from sources that have no bias because you clearly have bias and it is impacting your ability to think rationally.

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#33 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong: Calm down buddy. Nobody's "lashing out" like a "slighted child". I think you may have taken this a bit too seriously. I'm not taking anything as "personal affront". And I already accepted your feedback when I said I'll remove the actual feat.

Also, I fail to see how Finn is average... Maybe in Star Wars, compared to Jedi(actually, he's below average in that case), but he's endured close range explosions while exhausted and was among the absolute top of an Order of supersoldiers trained from birth in melee and battlefield combat. Doesn't sound average to me.

And I was referring to this "discussion" being a useless tangent after I said I'll remove the lightsaber slash from the OP. It's kinda pointless to discuss these things when the core of the debate has already been conceded.

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#34 Posted by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

Calm down buddy. Nobody's "lashing out" like a "slighted child". I think you may have taken this a bit too seriously. I'm not taking anything as "personal affront". And I already accepted your feedback when I said I'll remove the actual feat.

It is unfortunate that your own posts run contrary to these claims. You attacked my reading comprehension because you are a lashing out like a slighted child who takes a challenge to your ideas as a personal attack on you. How seriously I take this conservation is completely irrelevant. How you are taking this conversation is relevant.

Also, I fail to see how Finn is average... Maybe in Star Wars, compared to Jedi(actually, he's below average in that case), but he's endured close range explosions while exhausted and was among the absolute top of an Order of supersoldiers trained from birth in melee and battlefield combat. Doesn't sound average to me.

Daredevil has endured explosions and he is only Olympic. Moon Knight has endured explosions and he isn't even that. I can give you character after character who have endured explosions and not been critically injured. And Finn was within a group of people who were all trained to be "super soldiers" sure. But he and their group were their first attempt at that and nothing that they have done has illustrated super anything.

And I was referring to this "discussion" being a useless tangent after I said I'll remove the lightsaber slash from the OP.

If it is so useless, why do you insist on continuing it? I continued it because you continued to post erroneous information. You only posted the concession after you tried to argue your point in the same post. So it isn't a useless tangent as it was both useful as well as being directly relevant to the conversation. You're just trying to save face.

It's kinda pointless to discuss these things when the core of the debate has already been conceded.

Sure but you brought up other incorrect points that need to be addressed. I am here to make sure that it gets corrected. If these corrections fail to be made, I will continue to argue against your fallacious claims.

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#35 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong: :Sigh:

I really don't have the time to argue over this; it's a bit trivial.

And BTW, the reading comprehension thing wasn't me lashing out so much it was as me noting you obviously misinterpreted what I said. If you took it as a personal attack, then I apologize, but I never once took the things you said as personal. This is just an internet debate about a fictional random. No real reason to take it so seriously, tbh.

Also, Daredevil and Moon Knight are both peak human, so...

EDIT: Anyways, I took the feat out. And again, I apologize if you took my "reading comprehension" comment as a personal attack.

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#36 Posted by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

:Sigh:

I really don't have the time to argue over this; it's a bit trivial.

Yet you insist on continuing it. I imagine, because you feel like failing to get the last word means you lost.

And BTW, the reading comprehension thing wasn't me lashing out so much it was as me noting you obviously misinterpreted what I said.

Which I explained was not true and even if it was, the fault is with you, not me.

If you took it as a personal attack, then I apologize, but I never once took the things you said as personal. This is just an internet debate about a fictional random. No real reason to take it so seriously, tbh.

I'm glad that you have had a change of heart. I'm still going to be a skeptical presence here.

Also, Daredevil and Moon Knight are both peak human, so...

Heh. No, they are not. Daredevil is consistently stated to be Olympic level. Moon Knight is not even as physically impressive as Daredevil, so while he could be Olympic, he is not quite as Olympic level as Daredevil. Daredevil may be peak by your personal standards, but not by Marvel's standards and certainly not by comic book standards.

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#37 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong: Yet you insist on continuing it. I imagine, because you feel like failing to get the last word means you lost.

I guess on a subconscious level? I guess the whole forum "not getting last word = concession" thing has gotten to me.

IDK. I try not to debate, so much as just randomly discuss stuff nowadays. More fun than spamming peeps with feats and statements.

Tell you what: you're pretty intelligent. I'll follow ya. :)

Which I explained was not true and even if it was, the fault is with you, not me.

Whatever. Think what you will.

I'm glad that you have had a change of heart. I'm still going to be a skeptical presence here.

Aight.

Heh. No, they are not. Daredevil is consistently stated to be Olympic level. Moon Knight is not even as physically impressive as Daredevil, so while he could be Olympic, he is not quite as Olympic level as Daredevil. Daredevil may be peak by your personal standards, but not by Marvel's standards and certainly not by comic book standards.

:mmm: Fair enough. Though my main point is Finn isn't an average human, he's far from that.

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#38 Posted by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

Though my main point is Finn isn't an average human, he's far from that.

I agree that he isn't an average human. But I my acknowledgement is that he is not an average human much in the same way that a highly trained soldier in real life is far from average. He has training to be an effective soldier but so does a Navy Seal. I am an average human and I would never get into a fight with a highly trained Navy Seal because I know that relative to him, I am nothing.

I have yet to see anything from Finn to suggest that he is beyond anything that a human being can attain with some measure of training. You don't train durability. His durability is human. You can train endurance but I haven't seen anything to suggest that he is above average in that either. His ability to perform as a soldier isn't being questioned here but then again, he has been trained since birth to perform as a soldier. Aside from some remarks to his ability though, we have seen nothing to suggest that Finn is actually an overly competent soldier. He may be a remarkable soldier but by what standard, general Stormtroopers? That's not a hard set of criteria to surpass.

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#39 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong: Eh, that depends. The fact that Finn was the MVP in all the training simulations he took part in, and stomped any FO Stormtrooper that challenged him in melee combat suggests he's definitely an overtly competent soldier. Now how good are general Stormtroopers? Well, if we're dwelling into the EU, they're actually extremely impressive.

If canon, well it's unknown, but we do know their training should logically be more advanced than the ones human soldiers go through. :mmm:

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#40 Posted by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong: Eh, that depends. The fact that Finn was the MVP in all the training simulations he took part in, and stomped any FO Stormtrooper that challenged him in melee combat suggests he's definitely an overtly competent soldier. Now how good are general Stormtroopers? Well, if we're dwelling into the EU, they're actually extremely impressive.

If canon, well it's unknown, but we do know their training should logically be more advanced than the ones human soldiers go through. :mmm:

In the EU, only some were extremely impressive. All the impressive ones would have been in a state of advanced age by the time Finn would have reached his maximum potential. Most Stormtroopers in existence by the time of Episode IV, V, and VI were a bunch of randoms that were thrown into combat without any training at all.

If we are going by canon, well that currently is only the movies and a few comics. All of which have decidedly unimpressive showings for regular Stormtroopers, who mostly employ an 'overwhelm with numbers' form of strategy.

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#42 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong: In the EU, only some were extremely impressive. All the impressive ones would have been in a state of advanced age by the time Finn would have reached his maximum potential. Most Stormtroopers in existence by the time of Episode IV, V, and VI were a bunch of randoms that were thrown into combat without any training at all.

Actually, that isn't the case. To be a Stormtrooper at all, in the EU, you have to go through at least 3 years of brutal training on every terrain possible on a planet with higher gravity than standard. So it's hardly "being thrown into combat without any training at all".

Also, not all of them were in an advanced age, and Finn was beating Troopers older than him in Before the Awakening. He just seems more talented than most, if not all, Stormies of the First Order.

If we are going by canon, well that currently is only the movies and a few comics. All of which have decidedly unimpressive showings for regular Stormtroopers, who mostly employ an 'overwhelm with numbers' form of strategy.

Eh, Vader's Fist is pretty damn impressive, but then again I doubt Finn would've been in Vader's Fist if he served during the events of the OT timeline, so point taken.

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#43 Edited by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually, that isn't the case. To be a Stormtrooper at all, in the EU, you have to go through at least 3 years of brutal training on every terrain possible on a planet with higher gravity than standard. So it's hardly "being thrown into combat without any training at all".

What source is that from? Battlefront 2, The Force Unleashed, and Heir to the Empire corroborate my statement, as the Fett clones have nothing but contempt for the future recruits and widely regard as complete buffoons. It was also for this reason that a band of indigenous cavemen were able to defeat an army reputed as the most powerful in the galaxy.

Also, not all of them were in an advanced age, and Finn was beating Troopers older than him in Before the Awakening. He just seems more talented than most, if not all, Stormies of the First Order.

The Kamino Generation 1 clones (the Fett clones) were the clones that were known for being experts and were aged to adults by 22 BBY. From the introduction of the Spaarti clones in 19 BBY onward, the clones were barely trained to do more than pull a trigger. They mindlessly ran into gunfire. This is not rigorous training. A New Hope took place 19 years after that. Already the original clones, the ones who were highly trained, would be well in to their late 40s or early 50s. Fast forward to The Force Awakens. That is 34 years after A New Hope. I don't know what you would call advanced age, but by my estimate, the original clones had the equivalent of someone in their late 70s to early 80s by this time. The Troopers that Finn was beating at this time were unlikely to be the original clones. They may have been better trained clones or human recruits, but I highly doubt that they were generation 1 Kamino clones. However, you are trying to use current canon to disprove EU statements. I see that as inherently flawed.

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#44 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong: What source is that from?

Here you go:

The Imperial Academy Carida drew the best and bravest Army cadets, with its 2 year long Stormtrooper training program legendary for its brutality. Stormtrooper training not only included grueling physical tests but also extensive indoctrination, which produced unswerving loyalty to the Empire. Very few attempts to bribe, blackmail or seduce a Stormtrooper succeeded.

The Essential Guide to Warfare

Note that they only drew from the best of the Imperial Army Troopers, which already have one year of expert training in every single field of combat. The world of Carida has very high gravity and every possible terrain:

One of the several planets in the Caridan system, it was a large high gravity world with a wide variety of terrain. It was the site of the Empire's most important training center.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

It should also be noted that a cadet with only one year of training on Carida noted she's now capable of doing the work of ten load lifters:

"But I'm strong; if I wasn't, I wouldn't be here. Look at it this way -- someday I'll come back to the farm, and I'll be able to do the work of ten binary load lifters."

Carida: Heavy Duty

This is noteworthy as the binary load lifters have the capability to lift several tons:

The Droid's lifting arms are equally powerful and able to lift several tonnes without straining their hydraulic pivots.

The Official Star Wars Fact File #30

Granted, Myretta was speaking hyperbolically, but it does suggest she's insanely strong(a 1-tonner, perhaps) and talented and she's only been a cadet at Carida for a single year.

All the Stormtroopers-in-training need to combat the vicious predator arachnoids that are so good at combat, Jabba the Hutt buys them to train his rancor:

Future Stormtroopers trekked across burning deserts, slogged through dense rain forests, trained on heaving oceans and endured frostbite on the polar ice caps. Carida's life forms included the combat arachnids. Creatures so renowned for their fighting prowess, Jabba the Hutt purchased several to battle his pet rancor.

The Essential Guide to Planets and Moons

In the EU, Stormtroopers are damn good.

Battlefront 2, The Force Unleashed, and Heir to the Empire corroborate my statement, as the Fett clones have nothing but contempt for the future recruits and widely regard as complete buffoons.

Battlefront 2 has only subjective thoughts of the Clones, but in reality I'd take objective sources over a begrugded Clone Trooper. The TFU Databank speaks highly of Stormtroopers and their commanders, and doesn't note anything about lacking training. And Heir to the Empire is at a time where the Empire was completely scrambled, a fraction of what it was, led by Thrawn. Not only does it not apply to the Empire at its peak, but you can just count the Essential Guide to Warfare as retconning it.

It was also for this reason that a band of indigenous cavemen were able to defeat an army reputed as the most powerful in the galaxy.

When, and how?

The Kamino Generation 1 clones (the Fett clones) were the clones that were known for being experts and were aged to adults by 22 BBY. From the introduction of the Spaarti clones in 19 BBY onward, the clones were barely trained to do more than pull a trigger. They mindlessly ran into gunfire. This is not rigorous training. A New Hope took place 19 years after that. Already the original clones, the ones who were highly trained, would be well in to their late 40s or early 50s. Fast forward to The Force Awakens. That is 34 years after A New Hope. I don't know what you would call advanced age, but by my estimate, the original clones had the equivalent of someone in their late 70s to early 80s by this time. The Troopers that Finn was beating at this time were unlikely to be the original clones. They may have been better trained clones or human recruits, but I highly doubt that they were generation 1 Kamino clones. However, you are trying to use current canon to disprove EU statements. I see that as inherently flawed.

Oh, I'm not talking about the actual Clone Troopers, I'm referring to the First Order Troopers who had more training and experience than Finn, since they were older, and Finn still proved he was a more talented fighter when he bested them. He's stomping beings who are far ahead of standard Stormies, which are obviously meant to be well-trained soldiers. The Episode VII Visual Dictionary sheds light on this as their First Order Stormtroopers are trained similarly to Clones during the Clone Wars:

THE FOOT SOLDIERS of the First Order draw upon the heritage of the armored infantry units that blazed across the battlefields of the Clone Wars, in the final years of the Old Republic.

Star Wars The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

These Stormtroopers of the First Order are also noted as being better than the original Stormtroopers of the Galactic Empire and Clone Wars, due to their more regimented training that always ensures excellence across their ranks:

Out of necessity, the First Order enforces a far more regimented approach to training to ensure excellence across its reduced stormtrooper ranks. First Order stormtrooper training emphasizes improvisation and counter-insurgency operations, as well as guerrilla tactics. No longer tasked with ensuring loyalty to a dominant galactic goverment, these soldiers instead need to know how to claw their way back to power. This mind-set has created a more well-rounded combat education than training in the past.

Star Wars The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

Finn is essentially at the very top of an Order of supersoldiers who's training surpasses that of the Clones and Stormtroopers from the days of the Old Republic and Galactic Empire.

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#45 Edited by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

Here you go:

The Imperial Academy Carida drew the best and bravest Army cadets, with its 2 year long Stormtrooper training program legendary for its brutality. Stormtrooper training not only included grueling physical tests but also extensive indoctrination, which produced unswerving loyalty to the Empire. Very few attempts to bribe, blackmail or seduce a Stormtrooper succeeded.

The Essential Guide to Warfare

This says nothing of training in how to soldier. This speaks only of the training in loyalty and some vague reference to physical testing. The emphasis is that it is a 2 year indoctrination program.

Note that they only drew from the best of the Imperial Army Troopers, which already have one year of expert training in every single field of combat. The world of Carida has very high gravity and every possible terrain:

Okay but that still doesn't speak to their ability. 1 year of training isn't really that much, even by real world standards.

It should also be noted that a cadet with only one year of training on Carida noted she's now capable of doing the work of ten load lifters:

"But I'm strong; if I wasn't, I wouldn't be here. Look at it this way -- someday I'll come back to the farm, and I'll be able to do the work of ten binary load lifters."

Carida: Heavy Duty

This is clear posturing. I don't even need to know the context that was not offered in your quote to see that.

This is noteworthy as the binary load lifters have the capability to lift several tons:

The Droid's lifting arms are equally powerful and able to lift several tonnes without straining their hydraulic pivots.

The Official Star Wars Fact File #30

This is exactly my point. You honestly don't question a statement from (an apparent human) who claims that they will be able to lift several dozen tons? That really doesn't make you cock an eyebrow? Creating a respect thread requires a critical eye in order to prevent the spread of misinformation. I am here because I am not seeing that critical eye from you.

Granted, Myretta was speaking hyperbolically, but it does suggest she's insanely strong(a 1-tonner, perhaps) and talented and she's only been a cadet at Carida for a single year.

It suggests nothing of the sort. You are trying to infer that based on a statement that you admit is hyperbole. Will you assume that I am in the 100 ton range because I claim that I can bench press the Earth? How about at least the 1 ton range?

All the Stormtroopers-in-training need to combat the vicious predator arachnoids that are so good at combat, Jabba the Hutt buys them to train his rancor:

Future Stormtroopers trekked across burning deserts, slogged through dense rain forests, trained on heaving oceans and endured frostbite on the polar ice caps. Carida's life forms included the combat arachnids. Creatures so renowned for their fighting prowess, Jabba the Hutt purchased several to battle his pet rancor.

The Essential Guide to Planets and Moons

This does not speak to their combat abilities at all. I don't know the capabilities of these arachnoids based on this statement. A rancor can be brought down any number of ways that do not include any fighting prowess at all, and the best I can assume of the arachnoids are that they are worse than the rancor.

Battlefront 2 has only subjective thoughts of the Clones, but in reality I'd take objective sources over a begrugded Clone Trooper.

Sure. An opinion from the soldiers who you had yourself, called experts. That carries more weight than an "official" guide that runs contrary to actual canon.

The TFU Databank speaks highly of Stormtroopers and their commanders, and doesn't note anything about lacking training. And Heir to the Empire is at a time where the Empire was completely scrambled, a fraction of what it was, led by Thrawn. Not only does it not apply to the Empire at its peak, but you can just count the Essential Guide to Warfare as retconning it.

Heir to the Empire was referencing past clones... It doesn't matter what state of affairs the Empire was in at the time. Either way, your Essential Guide doesn't align with on screen/panel feats from the Stormtroopers while the references I gave do.

When, and how?

Ewoks?

Oh, I'm not talking about the actual Clone Troopers, I'm referring to the First Order Troopers who had more training and experience than Finn, since they were older, and Finn still proved he was a more talented fighter when he bested them.

So what?! You are trying to make an argument that Finn is super human (or now that you have gotten some pressure on the topic, "well above average") because he beats some featless soldiers that we know nothing about and who may have had more training?

He's stomping beings who are far ahead of standard Stormies, which are obviously meant to be well-trained soldiers. The Episode VII Visual Dictionary sheds light on this as their First Order Stormtroopers are trained similarly to Clones during the Clone Wars:

THE FOOT SOLDIERS of the First Order draw upon the heritage of the armored infantry units that blazed across the battlefields of the Clone Wars, in the final years of the Old Republic.

Star Wars The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

This says nothing of their training. Heritage means inheritance. It doesn't mean they trained the same. It can mean as little as that they wear armor that honors them. You are making far too many assumptions and providing far too little concrete evidence to support these assumptions.

These Stormtroopers of the First Order are also noted as being better than the original Stormtroopers of the Galactic Empire and Clone Wars, due to their more regimented training that always ensures excellence across their ranks:

Out of necessity, the First Order enforces a far more regimented approach to training to ensure excellence across its reduced stormtrooper ranks. First Order stormtrooper training emphasizes improvisation and counter-insurgency operations, as well as guerrilla tactics. No longer tasked with ensuring loyalty to a dominant galactic goverment, these soldiers instead need to know how to claw their way back to power. This mind-set has created a more well-rounded combat education than training in the past.

Star Wars The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

Finn is essentially at the very top of an Order of supersoldiers who's training surpasses that of the Clones and Stormtroopers from the days of the Old Republic and Galactic Empire.

This is exactly what I was talking about though. The combat training for Stormtroopers from A New Hope to Return of the Jedi was worthless and little more than training necessary to shoot in the correct general direction and not much more. Having a more regimented approach to training is nice but when the bar they are trying to raise is the training of the Stormtroopers of the referenced time period, you are not giving me anything that would impress me.

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#46 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16489 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik_soong: This says nothing of training in how to soldier. This speaks only of the training in loyalty and some vague reference to physical testing. The emphasis is that it is a 2 year indoctrination program.

Yeah, but it isn't just an indoctrination program; it's also a program noted for it's brutality and insane physical testing on a world with far higher gravity, where Stormtroopers need to kill 5 each other just to begin their training so only the best of the best can be hand-picked for the 2-year-long brutal, physical regime.

You need to be the best of the best of the Imperial Agents and recruits to even begin Stormtrooper training:

Only the top Imperial recruits even began stormtrooper training, and these three hundred had excelled in every way.

Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice

This is clear posturing. I don't even need to know the context that was not offered in your quote to see that.

This is exactly my point. You honestly don't question a statement from (an apparent human) who claims that they will be able to lift several dozen tons? That really doesn't make you cock an eyebrow? Creating a respect thread requires a critical eye in order to prevent the spread of misinformation. I am here because I am not seeing that critical eye from you.

Oh, I obviously don't think she's being legitimate, and I doubt she's going to be a several-dozen tonner after just a year of training. But it's obviously noting the sheer strength and brutality of the training, given how Myretta(the cadet in question) lacked pretty much any self-confidence and belittled herself until she started training and her strength grew.

This does not speak to their combat abilities at all. I don't know the capabilities of these arachnoids based on this statement. A rancor can be brought down any number of ways that do not include any fighting prowess at all, and the best I can assume of the arachnoids are that they are worse than the rancor.

Really? Killing vicious predators that are used to test rancors -- one of the greatest beasts in the galaxy -- isn't a good skill feat? I also question how they would kill rancors since they aren't poisonous beings, and they're animals so they don't have access to technology.

It's probably through their claws and teeth, tbh.

Sure. An opinion from the soldiers who you had yourself, called experts. That carries more weight than an "official" guide that runs contrary to actual canon.

I'd take a statement from the objective sourcebook that refers to the Empire at its peak over a subjective statement from a begrudged character at the beginning of the Empire's reign.

Heir to the Empire was referencing past clones... It doesn't matter what state of affairs the Empire was in at the time.

The Empire didn't even use Clones. Most of them went out of comission. Also, quote for this? I never recall such a thing being noted in novelisations or the graphic novels of Timothy Zahn's trilogy? In fact, in the novels, people were sh!tting themselves at the thought of only a few Stormtrooper boarding a ship and they were displaying impressive millitary prowess and power.

Either way, your Essential Guide doesn't align with on screen/panel feats from the Stormtroopers while the references I gave do.

Ah, you're one of those "feats only" people, I take it? And the Essential Guide actually does align with their on-screen feats when you take a closer look into newer sources. For example, Rebel Force I: Target has two Stormtroopers besting Luke Skywalker(pre-ESB, but at this point he still contended with one of Vader's elite Inquisitors, Kharys, and someone capable of going contending with Darth Krayt, Celeste Morne) and Han Solo.

In Wookie Annihilation, 50 Stormtroopers manage to fight off over a hundred Wookies that ambushed them. A single, standard Scout Trooper took on one of the elite Rebels in H2H for 45 minutes and held the edge. Sources that outdate, and thus retcon, Heir to the Empire like the Jedi Academy novels note only the best of the best can be trained as Stormtroopers.

Heck, even in the movies, we can see Stormtroopers(or rather Scout Troopers, but that's just Stormies suited for the jungle) being accurate enough to shoot down speeders that operate at anywhere from 300 to 500 kilometers an hour.

Ewoks?

Which is honestly PIS. And Ewoks are actually damn impressive in the EU.

So what?! You are trying to make an argument that Finn is super human (or now that you have gotten some pressure on the topic, 'well above average") because he beats some featless soldiers that we know nothing about and who may have had more training?

Um, no. I'm arguing Finn doesn't need to peak at a later age to surpass being average as a Stormtrooper, since he's already besting beings with more training and experience than him. He's obviously extremely talented, and moreso than any other Stormtrooper within the ranks of the First Order.

This is exactly what I was talking about though. The combat training for Stormtroopers from A New Hope to Return of the Jedi was worthless and little more than training necessary to shoot in the correct general direction and not much more. Having a more regimented approach to training is nice but when the bar they are trying to raise is the training of the Stormtroopers of the referenced time period, you are not giving me anything that would impress me.

It also refers to Clone Troopers during the Clone Wars, and again: that isn't how the Stormtroopers were trained at all. It wasn't just shooting at a general direction, otherwise sources wouldn't call them the greatest galactic army of all time.

Also, in Star Wars Rebels, teenagers training to be Stormtroopers go through some intense training. I'll watch the episode of the show and then come back and describe what happens.

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#47 Edited by Erik_Soong (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, but it isn't just an indoctrination program; it's also a program noted for it's brutality and insane physical testing on a world with far higher gravity, where Stormtroopers need to kill 5 each other just to begin their training so only the best of the best can be hand-picked for the 2-year-long brutal, physical regime.

I didn't say it was only an indoctrination program. The emphasis is on indoctrination though and the brutal characteristic can just as easily be attributed to that indoctrination as it can be to any physical standards. The point is that without specifics, you are forced to draw conclusions from nearly nothing. That is not deductive reasoning at work. That is a series of hopes and dreams that you want to make claims of fact on.

You need to be the best of the best of the Imperial Agents and recruits to even begin Stormtrooper training:

Top Imperial recruits who became top recruits by some unsubstantiated standard? We already know that the standards for becoming a Stormtrooper were finite at best. That is apparent in other EU references as well as the movies themselves. So why should I be impressed by the standards that need to be met just to gain access to their indoctrination program?

Oh, I obviously don't think she's being legitimate, and I doubt she's going to be a several-dozen tonner after just a year of training. But it's obviously noting the sheer strength and brutality of the training, given how Myretta(the cadet in question) lacked pretty much any self-confidence and belittled herself until she started training and her strength grew.

That doesn't tell us anything at all though. The point of military training is to break down the person you were and rebuild you into the person the military wants you to be. Why would you think that it would be any different in a military organization that literally brainwashes you into a uniform mentality?

Really? Killing vicious predators that are used to test rancors -- one of the greatest beasts in the galaxy -- isn't a good skill feat?

Yes really. Rancors are not one of the greatests beasts in the galaxy by any measure of the word. That is obvious exaggeration on your part to give credibility to the feat.

I also question how they would kill rancors since they aren't poisonous beings, and they're animals so they don't have access to technology.

Why don't you make some more assumptions? Whatever tests were done using the arachnoids, it wasn't very effective because Jabba's rancor showed itself to be nothing but a lumbering, mindless beast who literally walked into its own death.

It's probably through their claws and teeth, tbh.

Another assumption. We don't know why because near as I can tell, there is no substantial information on them in the first place.

I'd take a statement from the objective sourcebook that refers to the Empire at its peak over a subjective statement from a begrudged character at the beginning of the Empire's reign.

So you are saying he was wrong? How can you explain literally every Stormtrooper showing that corroborates his statement then? You need to apply critical thinking here. Obviously the source you are using is questionable, no matter how much you want it to be true.

The Empire didn't even use Clones. Most of them went out of comission. Also, quote for this? I never recall such a thing being noted in novelisations or the graphic novels of Timothy Zahn's trilogy?

I don't own the books. You can disregard it if you feel like it improves your position. There are still other sources that support it.

In fact, in the novels, people were sh!tting themselves at the thought of only a few Stormtrooper boarding a ship and they were displaying impressive millitary prowess and power.

Yeah shitting themselves because of reputation. You don't need brains to enforce the might of the empire, as is clearly illustrated in both the EU and canon.

Ah, you're one of those "feats only" people, I take it?

No, I am someone who uses critical thinking and doesn't just drone on about "official sources", however suspect they may be.

And the Essential Guide actually does align with their on-screen feats when you take a closer look into newer sources. For example, Rebel Force I: Target has two Stormtroopers besting Luke Skywalker(pre-ESB, but at this point he still contended with one of Vader's elite Inquisitors, Kharys, and someone capable of going contending with Darth Krayt, Celeste Morne) and Han Solo.

An untrained Luke who was relying on no small amount of luck to get through his adventures at the time? You are far too easily impressed. You assume you can take a character who eventually reaches nigh incalculable power and at any point in his life, he has these same godlike abilities. It's nonsense.

In Wookie Annihilation, 50 Stormtroopers manage to fight off over a hundred Wookies that ambushed them. A single, standard Scout Trooper took on one of the elite Rebels in H2H for 45 minutes and held the edge. Sources that outdate, and thus retcon, Heir to the Empire like the Jedi Academy novels note

Heck, even in the movies, we can see Stormtroopers(or rather Scout Troopers, but that's just Stormies suited for the jungle) being accurate enough to shoot down speeders that operate at anywhere from 300 to 500 kilometers an hour.

We also saw Scout Troopers miss several shots against a target who could not evade them and eventually accidentally kill himself on a tree stump. So yeah...

Which is honestly PIS. And Ewoks are actually damn impressive in the EU.

Or maybe the Stormtroopers don't deserve the wank you are giving them and multiple sources support what is seen in the movies. The Ewoks are not impressive as a species. There are a few of note who get off their world and do some adventures of some note but that doesn't represent them as a species anymore than Usain Bolt speaks to your running abilities.

Um, no. I'm arguing Finn doesn't need to peak at a later age to surpass being average as a Stormtrooper, since he's already besting beings with more training and experience than him.

Which... obviously lends support to my claim and supporting evidence that Stormtroopers are not nearly as impressive as you want them to be. A new batch of untested and barely trained recruits are besting the soldiers who you are touting as experts but providing absolutely no evidence for.

He's obviously extremely talented, and moreso than any other Stormtrooper within the ranks of the First Order.

Which isn't hard to accomplish, apparently.

It also refers to Clone Troopers during the Clone Wars, and again: that isn't how the Stormtroopers were trained at all. It wasn't just shooting at a general direction, otherwise sources wouldn't call them the greatest galactic army of all time.

Yes they can. They can call them the greatest when they qualify for the phrase. You don't need skill to be a great army. Having the numbers is also a qualifier for great and that is obviously the meaning that the Empire chose to employ.

Also, in Star Wars Rebels, teenagers training to be Stormtroopers go through some intense training. I'll watch the episode of the show and then come back and describe what happens.

Rebels takes place after Revenge of the Sith and before A New Hope. Whatever training that Stormtroopers go through during this period, it is clearly not in place by the time A New Hope comes about. From what I have seen of the series, nothing they do requires superhuman capabilities or even peak human performance. In fact, most of the training seen here is pretty basic stuff, aside from some unsportsmanlike conduct among the cadets. Furthermore, the training was incredibly short.

Cadets, you enter this facility as children, and in a few short weeks, you will leave as soldiers." Cumberlayne Aresko

Why should I find anything they do impressive when teenage, non-peak X-Men have far more rigorous training than Stormtroopers do?

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#48 Posted by rick014292 (70 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly I don't know why people keep saying Finn is equal to Jar Jar Binks. I mean honestly was he born to be a natural idiot like Jar Jar and give power to the most evil being in Star Wars such as Palpatine? No he's not lol Finn is actually a very interesting character!

I mean sure he wasn't a born prodigy and genius like Luke Skywalker, or good with the blaster like Han Solo, or good leadership like Leia Organa, or even a simple Jedi like Rey lol.

But you see that's what makes him such an interesting character he wasn't born with any talent but look what he's done for the Republic already.

People need to give the guy a break. I personally think he's an important character in the series and I'm interested to see what Disney has more in store for him.

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#49 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Finn deserved this RT. Stormtroopers are underrated. 👍 Good job.

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