Introduction

It has often been suggested that Banite scaling - the idea that each of Darth Bane's successors became successively more powerful each generation - is too vague to have anything beyond "X > Bane" concluded from it. This is far from the truth, as is revealed when one examines the empirical data, as well as the individual cases we have available for study.

Firstly, let us establish the groundwork from which the concept itself is founded. Each member of the Order of the Sith Lords grew more powerful than their predecessor.

Gallery

"That it is why we must seek out radical separatist groups, identify the ones that have the potential to become true threats, then encourage them to strike before they are ready. We must exploit them, playing them off against the Republic. We must let our enemies weaken one another while we stay hidden and grow strong."

Darth Bane: Rule of Two

--Darth Bane

Of all the Sith Masters, only Bane had understood the inescapable futility of this cycle. And only he had been strong enough to break it. Under his leadership the Sith had been reborn. Now they numbered only two - one Master and one apprentice; one to embody the power of the dark side, the other to crave it.

Thus would the Sith line always flow from the strongest, the one most worthy. Bane's Rule of Two ensured that the power of both Master and apprentice would grow from generation to generation until the Sith were finally able to exterminate the Jedi and usher in a new galactic age.

That was why Bane had chosen Zannah as his apprentice: she had the potential to one day surpass even his own abilities. On that day she would usurp him as the Dark Lord of the Sith and choose an apprentice of her own. Bane would die, but the Sith would live on.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

"The Jedi believe the Sith are extinct," she began. "But you can plainly see by my presence that the Jedi are wrong. The Sith still exist, but now we number only two: one Master, and one apprentice. One to embody the power of the dark side, the other to crave it."

"So you want to increase your numbers," Set reasoned. "You're seeking recruits to join your cause and rebuild the Sith armies."

"That is the path to failure," Zannah replied. "The history of the Sith has proven that in greater numbers the Sith will always turn their hatred against one another. It is inevitable; it is the way of the dark side.

"The only way we can survive is by following the Rule of Two. Our numbers can never grow beyond this. The Master will train his apprentice in the ways of the Sith, until one day she must challenge him. If she proves unworthy, the Master will destroy her and choose a new apprentice. If she proves the stronger, the Master will fall and she will become the new Dark Lord of the Sith, and choose an apprentice of her own."

Set felt like things were becoming clearer now. "You are the apprentice. You think it's time to challenge your Master. And you want me to help you defeat him."

"No!" she snapped, causing Set to flinch in his bed. "That is the old way. Lesser followers would unite their inferior skills to bring down a strong leader, weakening the Order. This goes against everything the Rule of Two stands for.

"If I am to become the Dark Lord of the Sith, I must prove myself by facing my Master alone. If I am unworthy, then I will fall:but the Order will remain strong under his leadership.

"Do you understand?"

Set understood all too well. "The Rule of Two guarantees that each Master will be more powerful than the one who came before. It culls the weak." Good for the Sith as a whole, but not so great if you're the one getting culled.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

"With patience and cunning, we are laying the seeds of our ultimate victory. Generation after generation our power and influence will grow until one day we will destroy the Jedi, and the Sith will rule the galaxy."

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

--Darth Zannah

The missions to Lianna, Saleucami, and Abraxin were still fresh in his thoughts. On a philosophical level he understood why the generations of Sith Lords that had preceded him had trained apprentices, to whom they had bequeathed their knowledge of the dark side of the Force in anticipation of an eventual challenge for superiority.

Darth Plagueis

"How often you said that the old order of Bane had ended with the death of your Master. An apprentice no longer needs to be stronger, you told me, merely more clever. The era of keeping score, suspicion and betrayal was over. Strength lies not in the flesh but in the Force."

Darth Plagueis

--Darth Sidious

He sometimes wondered: Was he a level behind? Two levels behind? Such questions were precisely what had driven generations of Sith apprentices ultimately to challenge their Masters. The uncertainty about who was the more powerful. The need to test themselves, to face the definitive trial.

Darth Plagueis

The Banite line contained 30 individuals as of Darth Plagueis' time.

“Descended from Darth Bane, we are the select few who refuse to be carried by the Force and who carry it instead - thirty in a millennium rather than the tens of thousands fit to be Jedi.”

Darth Plagueis

--Darth Plagueis

Notable individuals from the Banite line include Darth Bane, Darth Zannah, Darth Cognus, Darth Vectivus, Darth Gravid, Darth Gean, Darth Ramage, Darth Tenebrous’ Master, Darth Tenebrous, Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious.

The task before him was at once invigorating and daunting, and in the eye of that cycloning storm he could hear the faraway voices of all those who had laid the groundwork of the Sith imperative - the Grand Plan; those who had enlivened the hurricane with their breath and lives: Darths Bane and Zannah, and on down through the generations that had included Cognus, Vectivus, Ramage, and Tenebrous.

Darth Plagueis

Contrary to the opinions of some, the Banites’ generational power increase did not stop at Darth Gravid’s rampage. His apprentice Darth Gean still overpowered his Force barriers and defeated him with her bare hands despite her being far his inferior in Force knowledge, proving that the Banite Sith did not stop growing after Darth Gravid.

Barricaded within the walls of a bastion he and his Twi’lek apprentice, Gean, had constructed on Jaguada, he had attempted as much, and was thought to have destroyed more than half the repository of artifacts before Gean, demonstrating consummate will and courage, had managed to penetrate the Force fields Gravid had raised around their stronghold and intercede, killing her Master with her bare hands, though at the cost of her arm, shoulder, and the entire left side of her face and chest.

[...]

“Your thoughts betray you,” Plagueis said. “Do you think that Malak’s powers were weakened by Revan’s lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you think Gravid’s young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?”

Darth Plagueis

Method of Quantification

According to Darth Sidious, the last Banite master, Bane's power passed from master to apprentice throughout the generations:

While it would be a straightforward and simple interpretation to conclude this conferring of power happened during the apprentice's training - after all, for the apprentices to equal and defeat their masters they would have had to have Bane's power - the source material itself implies something different. We can witness this phenomenon of Bane's power being transferred to the apprentice at the time of their masters' deaths on three separate occasions:

Even from a distance, she had sensed an incredible burst of power - the same power she had sensed in Bane himself. She didn’t know how it was possible, but it almost seemed as if the Dark Lord’s life energy had burst free of his physical form in one glorious instant, releasing itself upon the material world. Then, as suddenly as she had sensed the presence, it was gone, vanishing like an animal gone to ground.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Awake in the oppressive heat, he replayed the events of the previous day, still somewhat astounded by what he had done. The Force had whispered to him: Your moment has come. Claim your stake to the dark side. Act now and be done with this. But the Force had only advised; it had neither dictated his actions nor guided his hands. That had been his doing alone. He knew from his travels with and without Tenebrous that he wasn't the galaxy's sole practitioner of the dark side - nor Sith for that matter, since the galaxy was rife with pretenders - but he was now the only Sith Lord descended from the Bane line. A true Sith, and that realization roused the raw power coiled inside him.

[…]

With 11-4D deep in processing mode, Plagueis withdrew a vial of his own blood and subjected it to analysis. Despite the recent amplification of his powers he sensed that his midi-chlorian count had not increased since the events on Bal'demnic, and the analysis of the blood sample confirmed his suspicions.

Darth Plagueis

A tremor took hold of the planet.

Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world's core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake's epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn't constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification - a gravitic shift.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.

[…]

The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.

Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.

Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?

Sidious had never learned how Plagueis's own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis's hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?

Darth Plagueis

While this sort of apotheosis is not confirmed to have happened every time, these three instances nonetheless do lend credence to the idea that Bane's power would have seeped forth from the Master to their pupil at their deaths - to confer the mantle of Dark Lord. Once is a fluke and twice is a coincidence but thrice is a pattern; it's not like the quote specifies Bane's power was passed down during the training either - in fact there's zero evidence of this. Even the catchphrase of the Rule of Two implies the opposite: "Always two there are: a master and an apprentice. One to embody the power, the other to crave it." Perhaps even more literally than symbolically, the master does indeed embody the power; the power of the power of the Sith Master; the power of Darth Bane. When the master dies at the hands of the apprentice, the latter the becomes the embodiment of that power by having it transferred to them, after which they select their own apprentice to crave it in turn, and the cycle continues.

So with this, we have an obvious method of quantification: the apprentice already equals their master during their fateful confrontation, and after the deed is done they gain a Bane of power (Bane being a unit of measurement I devised to more conveniently ascertain the Banite Sith's power; the definition of the unit being that a single Bane is equivalent to the power wielded by Darth Bane at his peak in Dynasty of Evil) on top of their current level. This would have happened every time, to the result of, at the bare minimum, Tenebrous having 29 Banes, Plagueis 30, and Sidious 31 Banes of power at their command. The method is solid, simple, and exact.

Individual Instances

Beyond quantitative methods, we have individual instances to demonstrate the vastness in between the beginning and the end of the line.

Darth Cognus

Before even beginning her apprenticeship under Darth Zannah, the Huntress - as she was known then - was already strong in the Force. So strong in fact, that she was able to threaten the reigning champion of the dark side Darth Bane with just her inborn talent with the Force. Indeed, she had no training, no prior knowledge of the Force, yet she was rivalling Bane with just her raw, instinctive use of the Force:

As he did so, he felt something fighting him. Some power was trying to block his ability to call upon the Force to shield himself. It wasn't strong enough to stop him, but it did hinder his efforts just enough so that a flicker of energy passed through the barrier.

[...]

He sprang back to his feet, simultaneously drawing his lightsaber with his right hand as he sent a blast of lightning out from the fingertips of his left hand. The violet bots should have incinerated all four of his targets on the balcony, yet again the strange power interfering with his ability to draw upon the Force hindered his efforts.

[...]

He came down with a heavy thud, the inexplicable power that still impeded his connection to the Force robbing him of a graceful landing.

[...]

The soldiers were nothing to him; it was the Iktotchi he was interested in now. She was the only opponent who posed any real threat.

[...]

Her achievements were even more impressive when one considered that she had never been given any formal training in the ways of the Force. Everything she did came from natural ability. Pure instinct. Raw power.

[...]

Her ability to disrupt the Force in others only gave further testament to her strength. She had never been trained in this rare and difficult technique; she simply unleashed it against her enemies through sheer force of will: crude but effective.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Given how each successive member would have more potential than Cognus, it should then not be a stretch to suggest some of the later Sith would have been Bane's superiors even while children and untrained neophytes. 17-year-old Sheev might in fact one-shot Bane.

Darth Gean

Gean overpowered the Force barrier her Master Darth Gravid had raised around their stronghold, proving herself his better in the Force, after which immediately besting him in single combat with just her bare hands, while he was armed with a lightsaber. This happened while she was still in training, not having learned even half of what her Master had to teach, yet she still demonstrated herself to be significantly more powerful and combatively able than Gravid. If she had learned all the Sith Archives had to offer at the time, the gap between her and her Master might have been outright enormous.

Barricaded within the walls of a bastion he and his Twi’lek apprentice, Gean, had constructed on Jaguada, he had attempted as much, and was thought to have destroyed more than half the repository of artifacts before Gean, demonstrating consummate will and courage, had managed to penetrate the Force fields Gravid had raised around their stronghold and intercede, killing her Master with her bare hands, though at the cost of her arm, shoulder, and the entire left side of her face and chest.

[...]

“Your thoughts betray you,” Plagueis said. “Do you think that Malak’s powers were weakened by Revan’s lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you think Gravid’s young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?”

Darth Plagueis

If a less-than-half-trained Gean can murk Gravid unarmed, then one can only imagine what those with even superior potential and superior actualized power and knowledge could do to Gravid. Granted how big even a generational increase is, most likely the likes of Tenebrous and Plagueis would already be capable of one-shotting Gravid, who himself could probably one-shot Bane.

Darth Tenebrous

While merely an apprentice, Tenebrous went far beyond the Force studies his own Master imposed on him, deeming them as "simplistic." If Tenebrous thought his Master's command of the Force was "simplistic" compared to his own before even taking the title of Sith Master, then it kind of boggles the mind how powerful he would become after disposing of his Master, an act that, by the way, Tenebrous carried out with his "customary efficiency," implying no great deal of difficulty:

More than a century before, when Tenebrous had been but a Sith apprentice himself, the magnificent computational power of his Bith brain had led him far beyond the simplistic Force studies imposed on him by his Master.

[...]

He had exterminated his doddering Master with his customary efficiency, and had embarked immediately on a decades-spanning quest for an apprentice of his own.

The Tenebrous Way

It does not end here, however. Tenebrous continued to grow for more than a century after the deed. In fact, he would probably only have been 20 years old or less given how most Biths aren't known to live past 85, yet Tenebrous had been the Sith Master for over a hundred years at the time of his death, which isn't factoring in the time he would have spend as an apprentice. Anything more than two decades is rather unbelievable considering Tenebrous would even then be over 120 at the time of his death, a bonafide statistical anomaly among his people. Given this, we can now factor in him far surpassing his Master in just two decades and multiply that by five to get the amount of growth he would have undergone as a Sith Master, and I honestly find it very, very hard to believe he would not one-shot his Master at his peak.

We have even more evidence, though. During the years of his apprenticeship, Tenebrous and his Master experimented to create a virus that would sever the Force connections of Jedi upon infection, although the project ended in failure. Decades later, Tenebrous would revisit the idea, and actually succeed in developing said virus with the same effect of cutting off Force users from the Force. He would take it even further, however, by limiting the severance to specific Force abilities, and by transforming the midi-chlorians into undying maxi-chlorians, and finally by coding the virus with his own consciousness. In a nutshell, apprentice Tenebrous and his Master fail at creating a far more simple virus than what peak Tenebrous creates solo. The implication here is that Tenebrous in his prime eclipses the power of his apprentice self and his Master combined.

But his apprentice carried the imperative forward, and each successive Sith Lord improved on it, Tenebrous and his Master most of all, though they wasted years attempting to create a targeted virus that could be deployed against the Jedi, separating them from the Force.

Darth Plagueis

As though midi-chlorians somehow embodied the principle of life itself, they vanished as life fled. Plagueis had more than once speculated that they somehow migrated from dying cells and returned to rejoin the Force from which they had sprung - more evidence of the apprentice's muddy thinking and pathetically romanticized mysticism, but no matter. The delusion of the student had proven an inspiration to the teacher, and the concept of midi-chlorian migration - flawed though it was - became the key to Tenebrous’ master stroke.

Amidst the billions upon billions of individual midi-chlorian deaths in Tenebrous' cells were a tiny fraction of midi-chlorians that were not dying.

That would not die so long as they inhabited a living host. These especially tenacious midi-chlorians - Tenebrous had privately labeled them with the jesting sobriquet maxi-chlorians - had been altered. Improved. It would not be an overstatement, in Tenebrous' opinion, to use the word perfected. These maxi-chlorians would indeed migrate, but not into the Force.

They would migrate into Plagueis.

To detect this infinitesimal percentage would require the precision of a Bith; it was far beyond his apprentice's limited perceptions - and indeed, Tenebrous had gone to considerable trouble to ensure it would always remain so.

Instead of actually training his doltish apprentice, Tenebrous had flattered Plagueis' mysticism while pricking his insecurities, sending him off on one useless, doomed-to-fail mission after another. In turn, Tenebrous had invested every available second of the freedom this afforded into designing, creating, and deploying the one weapon that Plagueis would never suspect.

Could never suspect. His own prejudices about the Force ensured Plagueis wouldn't believe such a thing was possible.

Tenebrous created a retrovirus that could infect midi-chlorians.

Midi-chlorians were, after all, merely symbiotic organelles that contribute to the organic processes of the living cells they inhabit. Due to their role in Force interactions, altering them was singularly challenging - they had an unsettling tendency to spontaneously express unexpected and unfortunate side effects - but by applying the full analytic prowess of his vast Bith brain and the preternatural power of his Bith senses to detect and resolve sub-microscopic structure, he eventually succeeded in creating a retrovirus that would transform normal midi-chlorians into long-lived maxi-chlorians.

But that was only the beginning.

With the patient, painstaking attention to the slightest, most insignificant detail that was his hallmark, Tenebrous had encoded his custom retrovirus with his most potent weapon: his own consciousness.

Once completed, Tenebrous had released the virus into his own bloodstream. It had spread throughout his body, infecting midi-chlorians in every one of his cells with gratifying alacrity. Not all his midi-chlorians, though, as the infected maxi-chlorians no longer fully functioned; to infect them all would have cut off his own connection to the Force. A partial severance of this connection was a necessary sacrifice, however, and through an extended process of trial and error, he was able to fine-tune the effect and confine it to the one sector of his Force powers he no longer needed - his ability to sense the motion of the future.

Of what possible use was the ability to see a future he already knew?

The Tenebrous Way

At this point I find it very unrealistic to suggest that Tenebrous would not be capable of one-shotting his Master. The former already considered the latter a troglodyte before going on to quintuple in power in the decades leading up to his prime. The evidence is there, and it's just very obvious to me. Tenebrous one-shots his Master, who could probably one-shot Gravid honestly, who in turn would one-shot Bane.

Darth Plagueis

Tenebrous disposed of his mortal shell when he entered his maxi-chlorians, existing only as an intangible consciousness afterwards. As a side-effect he found his connection to the Force to have increased to levels "more intimate than he had ever believed possible," and that his power had "multiplied":

Now, dead at last, he could begin to enjoy the fruits of his lifelong labor. In the Force, he could feel that his body had already suffered irreversible brain-death, yet his consciousness remained, fully aware, fully functional, and connected to the Force in a manner more intimate than he had ever believed possible. Freed now of the crude biological processes that mark the passage of time, Tenebrous found he could perceive the measured tick of each individual nanosecond while simultaneously comprehending the entire sweep of galactic eons.

[...]

With all his multiplied power, he yanked his maxi-chlorians back out from Plagueis' body in a spray of Force energy from his eyes, his mouth, the wound and every other cell.

The Tenebrous Way

The reason I do not believe this is Tenebrous' combative prime is because I see no evidence he could have sustained his spirit without an earthly tether to attach it to (the only Sith to have pulled this off was Emperor Palpatine, the strongest of them all), and most likely he would always end up trapped in a time loop since he was bound to his maxi-chlorians, so I don't think his spirit state could be used in a versus scenario. It does, however, open a new door for Plagueis, who as per Banite scaling grew more powerful than Tenebrous had. And seeing as Tenebrous' spirit is still Tenebrous, I see no reason not to take his incorporeal power levels into account when gauging Plagueis. By all accounts, they should elevate Plagueis to far greater heights than physical Tenebrous was capable of - Plagueis' power is literally Tenebrous' power "multiplied" to a grander level than Tenebrous "had ever believed possible." He might not one-shot Tenebrous, but the gap is very vast nonetheless. He definitely one-shots Tenebrous' Master, though, who in turn one-shots Gravid, who one-shots Bane.

Closing Words

I could have done a subsection explaining Sidious too, but he has a vast abundance of material beyond any other Banite covering his growth, so it would needlessly extend this blog when the point is clear enough as it is. Not to mention he doesn't really need Banite scaling to be universally respected, wanked, and loved; his own feats do that for him, and while that is true for some of the others here too, Sidious is the most self-sufficient of the bunch by a countrymile.

But regardless, I feel like I have done my duty here. The Banite gap is ginormous, and the benefits granted by the scaling equally so. There's little denying it. The Banites are supreme.

For one Dark Lord being twice as powerful as the previous is absurd. You're assuming that the master improves at the same rate for 30 years as the apprentice.

@emperor_jar_jar: No; I'm assuming the master improves at half the speed as the apprentice.

@azronger: Not that it's needed anyway. A merely significant gap within a single generation is still more than enough to suggest Bane is an insect next to a middle generation Sith like Gravid. After all, it's 13-14 significant gaps we are talking about.

By they time the student challenged the teacher, the former would have 30 years of power growth under their belt while the latter would have 60. In essence, what this means is that the apprentice has to catch up to and equal their master in half the time the master grew in power, meaning their potential and rate of growth would be twice as big.

I am not exactly sure that's the case, tbh. The apprentice would have a higher growth rate as an apprentice than he would as a master, by common sense.

No doubt that the apprentice/new master would grow highly for the next few decades, but at a growth rate "equal" to his growth rate as an apprentice? Doubtful.

1.5 seems like a pretty good option rather than two. If we are looking generally.

I'm not so keen on the exponential growth of the apprentices because we're not sure of time spans for each master-apprentice relationship, but the foundation of your argument is solid, overall. There were setbacks, which need to be accounted for, and we know this from the novel Darth Plagueis. There were apprentices who were not as strong as their masters, and the Sith also had a setback that Gravid created by destroying so many Sith artifacts.

Ultimately, the Rule of Two did work, and the overall scaling you show was proven to be effective.

@redheathen: I addressed the Gravid issue in my post; it's irrelevant. Also, just because there were a few failures doesn't take away from the successes whatsoever; again, irrelevant.

But I appreciate the compliments, however.

@lordofthelight: Have we got actual examples of people hitting diminishing returns as time went by?

Very nice, very nice.

@wollfmyth209: Thanks

Sure thing, and I did say that overall (or ultimately) your scaling (RoT) worked.

It isn't stated that they stopped growing in power if that's what you mean, so getting a precise answer for anybody isn't easy. I guess Yoda would be the easiest option. Kyp Durron? Probably Dooku?

Great blog by the way. I just feel that the ratio should be 1.5, or close to it rather than 2. Gravid still ends up being more than 400 times more powerful than Bane and Tenebrous, close to 90000 times more powerful.

@wollfmyth209: @redheathen: @zapan871: @emperor_jar_jar: I removed the portion discussing the mathematical method, as the controversy spawned by it overshadowed the rest of the content in the blog. Perhaps that might be more solid and to your liking?

I liked the concept for the mathematical method. It seemed the most logical. The only thing I disagreed with was the ratio being 2 instead of 1.5( roughly), which seems to be the most accurate to me.

I have repeatedly argued that the above is the best way for quantifying Banite scaling.

Assuming a linear growth rate across a Sith's career is ridiculous. Age, and dark side decay, weaken Sith as they age, for one.

Darth Gravid was crazy/torn to the Light side of the Force when he was killed, his apprentice killing him in such a state is not proof she was superior to him in his prime.

The abilities and styles of different Force users are different, they all have different natural aptitudes and capabilities. There is such a thing as a rock-paper-scissors relationship, so the apprentice ultimately surpassing the Master doesn't prove they can beat all previous Banite Sith. It's basically ABC logic, which doesn't work in Star Wars. The only real certain thing is that the Banite Sith accumulated knowledge, which one source claims is what was allowing them to grow.

Also, Zannah was nowhere near Bane's level early in her apprenticeship but saying that all Apprentices had the same position relative to their Masters as she did initially is a massive and baseless assumption. It would be statistically incredible that the Masters were somehow finding people much more powerful, thirty times in a row. I could believe they found someone with higher raw potential each time but believing they were massively ahead is a bit preposterous considering we don't know the selection methods of each Master or the candidates available. Some, like Tenebrous, actually thought very poorly of their Apprentice. It also seems weird to me to suggest the 17 year old Palpatine could one-shot Bane when during his Apprentice phase he was pushed to the limits of his speed, agility and accuracy fighting hundreds of savages, which took hours to complete, when he used a Force pike. Honestly that civilization of savages that the Banite Sith used to challenge martially as their weaponry improved is a better way of scaling their growth across the generations - each Master and Apprentice pair finds each generation of savages a worthy challenge as their civilization gets more advanced.

@alphaq

Assuming a linear growth rate across a Sith's career is ridiculous. Age, and dark side decay, weaken Sith as they age, for one.

Care to provide examples? I haven't seen age be a hinderance to such powerful Force wielders like the Banite Sith who can augment their physical stats with the Force to compensate. And dark side decay in itself is brought about by immersion in the dark side, which would make them more powerful in the Force, not weaker. And greater strength in the Force is a gateway to superior augmentation, which makes up for any physical impairments dark side degradation might have caused.

Darth Gravid was crazy/torn to the Light side of the Force when he was killed, his apprentice killing him in such a state is not proof she was superior to him in his prime.

If there is evidence the alteration in Gravid's philosophical perspective hindered his combative capabilities, you have yet to provide it.

The abilities and styles of different Force users are different, they all have different natural aptitudes and capabilities. There is such a thing as a rock-paper-scissors relationship, so the apprentice ultimately surpassing the Master doesn't prove they can beat all previous Banite Sith. It's basically ABC logic, which doesn't work in Star Wars. The only real certain thing is that the Banite Sith accumulated knowledge, which one source claims is what was allowing them to grow.

I don't recall ever claiming every Banite Sith would beat the last. However, what I have claimed - and the source material agrees with me here - is that they...

• Become more powerful in the Force
• Become more skilled with a lightsaber
• Most of the time learn all their Master knew

...with every generation. All of those things being rather major factors in duels between Force wielders, keep in mind. So while it isn't exactly fact they would automatically beat all their predecessors in combat, the probability is heavily on their side.

Also, Zannah was nowhere near Bane's level early in her apprenticeship but saying that all Apprentices had the same position relative to their Masters as she did initially is a massive and baseless assumption. It would be statistically incredible that the Masters were somehow finding people much more powerful, thirty times in a row. I could believe they found someone with higher raw potential each time but believing they were massively ahead is a bit preposterous considering we don't know the selection methods of each Master or the candidates available.

Sorry, you have lost me. Are you saying the apprentices were fodder to their masters or relativistic to them when they were initiated? Your sentences contradict themselves.

Some, like Tenebrous, actually thought very poorly of their Apprentice. It also seems weird to me to suggest the 17 year old Palpatine could one-shot Bane when during his Apprentice phase he was pushed to the limits of his speed, agility and accuracy fighting hundreds of savages, which took hours to complete, when he used a Force pike.

Mind quoting me the passage the says Palpatine was pushed to his limits there? I don't recall it ever being stated.

Honestly that civilization of savages that the Banite Sith used to challenge martially as their weaponry improved is a better way of scaling their growth across the generations - each Master and Apprentice pair finds each generation of savages a worthy challenge as their civilization gets more advanced.

The Kursid rite was just a glorified training exercise for the Sith. There no indication it was some big challenge to overcome to my memory. Scaling from it is extremely sketchy and ineffectual compared to the methods I have outlined above.

One little thing: you forgot Darth Guile in the list of Banite Sith Lords between Sidious and Bane.

@necromancer76: Guile has not been classified as a Banite Sith to my knowledge.

@azronger:

Care to provide examples? I haven't seen age be a hinderance to such powerful Force wielders like the Banite Sith who can augment their physical stats with the Force to compensate. And dark side decay in itself is brought about by immersion in the dark side, which would make them more powerful in the Force, not weaker. And greater strength in the Force is a gateway to superior augmentation, which makes up for any physical impairments dark side degradation might have caused.

I don't have the quote handy but I remember reading Bane's musings that he would have to confront Zannah before age robbed him of his strength, which would defeat the purpose of his Rule of Two forcing her to actually surpass him.

Right, but there are Dark Side users who have their body literally falling apart due to the wasting effects of the Dark Side. King Ommin couldn't move or survive with cybernetic assistance. Darth Zash also developed a terminal condition, from what I hear. Saying that the degradation cannot hinder is just incorrect.

Regardless, there is still the matter of a linear growth pattern. What evidence do you have that strength in the Force grows linearly at the same rate across a Force user's development?

If there is evidence the alteration in Gravid's philosophical perspective hindered his combative capabilities, you have yet to provide it.

We know that confliction between the Light and Dark renders Jedi or Sith weaker, Anakin being the example that stands out the most.

I don't recall ever claiming every Banite Sith would beat the last. However, what I have claimed - and the source material agrees with me here - is that they...

• Become more powerful in the Force
• Become more skilled with a lightsaber
• Most of the time learn all their Master knew

...with every generation. All of those things being rather major factors in duels between Force wielders, keep in mind. So while it isn't exactly fact they would automatically beat all their predecessors in combat, the probability is heavily on their side.

I could believe they became more powerful in the sense their connection to the Force was stronger, not necessarily that they become better in every area of the Force though.

Where was it stated that every one became more skilled with a lightsaber? There's also the fact that lightsaber skills also don't obey any kind of ABC logic, due to differences in styles, physicals, strategy, etc.

Sorry, you have lost me. Are you saying the apprentices were fodder to their masters or relativistic to them when they were initiated? Your sentences contradict themselves.

I should've broken that up a bit better. I don't think Zannah was a rival to Bane early on, that came later. But I also think that if one were to believe that she was a rival early on, one can't assume that was a consistent thing across the initiation of all the Apprentices. Because it is statistically incredible and we have no evidence for it, and contradicting evidence like Tenebrous's appraisal of Plagueis.

Mind quoting me the passage the says Palpatine was pushed to his limits there? I don't recall it ever being stated.

I saw the quote in one of your threads, actually.

@azronger: I’m fairly certain Guile is between Gean and Ramage. His beliefs were recounted by Plagueis to Sidious.

@necromancer76: He was mentioned in the novel, but it was never confirmed whether he was part of the Banite line.

@alphaq

I don't have the quote handy but I remember reading Bane's musings that he would have to confront Zannah before age robbed him of his strength, which would defeat the purpose of his Rule of Two forcing her to actually surpass him.

Right, but there are Dark Side users who have their body literally falling apart due to the wasting effects of the Dark Side. King Ommin couldn't move or survive with cybernetic assistance. Darth Zash also developed a terminal condition, from what I hear. Saying that the degradation cannot hinder is just incorrect.

I feel like Bane isn't the best example to cite, mostly because he had been encrusted in orbalisks for a decade, which may have had a permanent effect on his physical condition. I haven't read the Bane books in years so I don't have quotes either, but I recall it being stated that he was all messed up physically after the parasites were removed. Even then, he was faster, stronger and overall a more physically intimidating adversary in Dynasty of Evil than he had ever been, despite in that book being the oldest we've seen him - 46 years old - through his command of the Force.

As another counterexample, we have Count Dooku, who was "fitter than most men half his age" according to Yoda: Dark Rendezvous and whose Force powers would "keep him going for as long as he needed" as per the Revenge of the Sith junior novelization in spite of the fact that the Count was 83 years old. As I said, staving off the detrimental effects age will have on your physical condition can be done through the Force, and your success depends upon your connection to the it. Someone on Count Dooku's level was completely unaffected, as were the likes of Darth Sidious and Yoda (the former being severely affected by dark side degradation to boot). Even the later generations of Banite Sith in Tenebrous and Plagueis were in "robust health" according to Darth Plagueis despite the former being downright ancient compared to his people's standard lifespan, and the latter was also in his senior years.

All in all, you don't have any real proof that the Banite Sith would have been weaker in their old age when confronted by their students. You may argue it for the earlier generations, but you fall short on proof there, and the later generations had clearly superseded the problem of dark side degradation and age hampering physical capabilities. For the earlier generations, we can also look to other old Force wielders even weaker than Bane who were not hindered by their age - the one example that immediately comes to mind would be Darth Malgus, who was in his sixties by the time of his death and clearly severely gripped by the necrosis of the dark side, yet a dominating physical combatant nonetheless. You have no real evidence for your case here.

Regardless, there is still the matter of a linear growth pattern. What evidence do you have that strength in the Force grows linearly at the same rate across a Force user's development?

I removed the mathematical scaling, as I said. It wasn't solidly backed up by evidence.

We know that confliction between the Light and Dark renders Jedi or Sith weaker, Anakin being the example that stands out the most.

The problem being that we don't know if Gravid was conflicted at all during his actions. We know he was drawn to the light side and destroyed half of the Sith archives, but that's it. However, the fact that the did do the latter and tried to stop his apprentice from intervening and attempted to kill her suggests that he wasn't conflicted at all but very determined in fact. I'll say it once more: you have no evidence for any of your claims.

I could believe they became more powerful in the sense their connection to the Force was stronger, not necessarily that they become better in every area of the Force though.

A stronger Force connection allows one to master Force powers more easily and absorb knowledge quicker. Thus, a stronger Force connection kinda suggests they did become better at almost everything, especially when the Master did impart all they knew to the apprentice before their demise. What's even more revealing, though, is the fact that the apprentice did defeat the Master in combat, which suggests they were able to deal with every Force ability that was thrown at them, and that the Master wasn't able to cope with what the apprentice was packing, which does indeed imply they did improve in every relevant facet of combat.

Where was it stated that every one became more skilled with a lightsaber? There's also the fact that lightsaber skills also don't obey any kind of ABC logic, due to differences in styles, physicals, strategy, etc.

You're right about the ABC thing though, which is why I even admitted it's not 100% fact every Banite Sith would defeat all their predecessors just because they defeated their own Master. But once again, they are superior in all relevant aspects of combat regardless, so the chances that they would are rather high.

I should've broken that up a bit better. I don't think Zannah was a rival to Bane early on, that came later. But I also think that if one were to believe that she was a rival early on, one can't assume that was a consistent thing across the initiation of all the Apprentices. Because it is statistically incredible and we have no evidence for it, and contradicting evidence like Tenebrous's appraisal of Plagueis.

Um, I never claimed Zannah was a rival to Bane when they first met :/. Nor have I presented such an idea as a statistically consistent thing across all generations.

I saw the quote in one of your threads, actually.

I thought you would cite that. Plagueis isn't saying that the task at hand will be difficult for Sidious. He's merely stating the obvious: that it is a test of his physical capabilities. It can still be a test and be easy at once; those two notions aren't mutually exclusive.

This is a great idea for a thread. Explaining systems of comparison between the generations of Sith Lords opens a world of potential ideas. Good write-up and execution.

Preface: Since you chose to focus more on individual members than the line as a whole and left off describing Plagueis and Sidious almost altogether, I want to add this comment as a kind of continuation to the thread with the stipulation that this will take a different method of comparison than the OP. There are several means of showing growth in the Banite line, particularly when you single out its beginning as contrasted with its end. For that reason, let’s examine the development of the Sith Lords by their long-awaited champion: Palpatine.

The Force Storm

Before Bane decided with finality to destroy the Brotherhood of Darkness for their ineffectiveness, he convinced Kaan and the other leading Brotherhood members to pool their powers for one attack against the Jedi armies on Ruusan, an attack Bane hoped would be their last one. This ritual unleashed devastation over the forests of Ruusan and killed Jedi and Sith warriors indiscriminately. The power of this ritual could have spread even farther had Kaan and his underlings persisted in the effort with Bane, but nonetheless, it consumed a forest and thinned the ranks of the Army of Light.

Kaan, Githany, and the rest of the Dark Lords had gathered atop a barren plateau overlooking the vast forests where Hoth and his army were hiding. They had come on their fliers: short-range, single-person, airborne vehicles front-mounted with heavy blaster guns. The fliers were parked at the edge of the plateau, fifty meters away from where the Sith sat in a loose circle. The ritual had begun.

They were communing with the Force, all of them slipping into a meditative trance as one. Their minds drifted deeper and deeper into the well of power contained within each individual, drawing on their strength and combining it through a single conduit. Bane stood in the center of the circle, urging them on.

"Touch the dark side. The dark side is one. Indivisible."

The night sky filled with dark clouds and a fierce wind swirled across the plateau, tearing at the cloaks and capes of the Sith. The air shook with the thunder and crackle of a mounting electrical storm. Bolts of blue-white lightning arced through the air, and the temperature suddenly dropped.

"Give yourself over to the dark side. Let it surround you. Engulf you. Devour you."

The Brotherhood slipped deeper into the collective trance, barely even aware of the storm now raging about their physical selves. Bane stood at the eye of the storm, drawing the bolts of lightning into himself, feeding on them. He felt his strength surge as he channeled and focused the dark side from the others.

This is how it should be! All the power of the Brotherhood in one body! The only way to unleash the full potential of the dark side!

"Do you feel invincible? Invulnerable? Immortal?"

He had to shout to be heard above the howling wind and thunder. A web of lightning spiraled out from his body, connecting him to each of the other Sith. He shivered then suddenly went stiff, arms spread out at his sides. Slowly, his rigid body began to rise into the air.

"Can you feel it?" he screamed, feeling as if the raw power of the Force roaring through him might rip his very flesh asunder. "Are you ready to kill a world?"

The storm rolled down from the plateau and rumbled across the forest. Hundreds of forks of searing lightning shot down from the sky—and the forest erupted. Trees burst into flames, the blaze racing through the branches and spreading out in all directions. The underbrush smoldered, smoked, and ignited; and a wall of fire swept across the planet's surface.

The inferno consumed everything in its path.

Heat and fire. There was nothing else in Bane's world. It was as if he had become the storm itself: he could see the world before him, swallowed up in red and orange and reduced in seconds to ash and embers by the unchained fury of the dark side.

It was glorious. And then suddenly it was gone.

There was a jarring thump as his body dropped from where it had been hovering five meters above the ground. For several seconds he was completely disoriented, unable to figure out what happened. Then he understood: the connection had been broken.

He rose to his feet slowly, uncertain of his balance. All around him were the forms of the Sith, no longer kneeling in meditation but collapsed or rolling on the ground, their minds reeling from the sudden end to the joining ritual. One by one they also regained their composure and stood, most looking as confused as Bane had been only seconds before.

Then he noticed Lord Kaan standing off to the side, over by the fliers.

"What happened?" Bane demanded angrily. "Why did you stop?"

"Your plan worked," Kaan replied curtly. "The forest is destroyed, the Jedi have fled to open ground. They are exposed, vulnerable. Now we go to finish them off."

--Path of Destruction

Darth Bane brought the self-proclaimed Sith Lords together, showing them how to focus their dark side energy into a lethal blast of power that scoured the surface of Ruusan, leaving vast tracts of land barren and lifeless.

Most of the Sith, Jedi and allies on both sides were utterly destroyed, yet still the wave of fire and destruction pushed onwards.

--The Official Star Wars Fact File #134

The combined power of the senior leaders of the Brotherhood channeled through their superior Darth Bane unleashed a wave forceful enough to devastate forests and armies, potentially even significant portions of the planet given time and dedication. This is impressive, but Bane believed the dark side would be stronger in a universe with fewer Sith diluting its power, leaving it in the possession of one single Sith Lord.

In fact, it was the Brotherhood’s ineptitude specifically that Bane grew so disenchanted with. After discovering the historical pattern of Sith infighting costing them lives, resources, and victories, the frequent blunders of the uneducated leaders of the Brotherhood culminated with Bane replacing them with his new dictum. It wasn’t just Sith throughout history that Bane wanted to succeed; he had a special enmity towards Kaan and the Brotherhood. The power they funneled into him during the ritual he hoped one would day be under the control of a single individual.

As we all know, Palpatine became the Sith Lord the Banite generations had been waiting for. After the formal establishment of the Empire he began perfecting the Force Storm technique, and its effects are described as follows:

Vast energy storms that connect wildly disparate spots across the galaxy, hyperspace wormholes are unpredictable and devastating. It was to the Rebel Alliance’s detriment that Emperor Palpatine was able to not only control these storms, but to create them.

--Dark Empire Handbook

"The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touches, for at its eye is pure hate. Just as a black hole devours a star, this storm can swallow armies and fold space."

--Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

Over Da Soocha V, Palpatine summoned a Force Storm that obliterated a fleet of New Republic capital ships orbiting the moon, as well threaten to destroy the surface of the entire moon. The New Essential Chronology tells us that this Storm was also more powerful than the one the Emperor sent to Coruscant to collect Luke, and that Storm wreaked such cataclysm on the planet that its western sea was in a state of recovery six years later (Before the Storm). In the end, the wormhole over Da Soocha destroyed the Eclipse, a multi-kilometer long capital vessel.

Gallery

Luke: He's created another energy storm.

Leia: It’s descending on Pinnacle Base, consuming all the ships in its path. (Sound of comlink activating.) Mon Mothma, can you hear me?

Mon Mothma: Princess Leia. There’s an energy storm. It’s suddenly taken over the planet! We have twelve ships lost already. All our hands are being lost. We’re being wiped out!

Han: Leia, Leia! (Sound of comlink deactivating.)

Leia: You’re going to slaughter all those people.

Palpatine: Yes. Did I not warn you? I’ve played along with your Jedi dueling games long enough. Now, you will experience my full potency. I live as energy. I am the dark side!

--Dark Empire Audio Drama

"One of the Emperor's Force Storms destroyed the Alliance base on the moon of Da Soocha and the entire fleet above it. Every day I'm reminded how lucky we are that Palpatine is lost to Chaos forever."

—Luke

--Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

When Bane theorized that the dark side concentrated in a single vessel would become more potent than the rabble he learned from, he was right. What took Bane in his youth a company of Sith Lords to do, Palpatine did and more by himself. He could annihilate armies and level worlds of his own power bereft of external aid. This shows the climax of Bane’s line and vision to produce absolute power unfettered by a host of weaker subordinates and “equals.” The completion of Bane’s dynasty satisfied his goal almost to the letter: the power of a single Sith Lord outweighed the distributed might of an army of Sith.

Concealment From the Jedi

The power of the Sith Lords can be measured by their capacity for deception and camouflage, which is exactly what Bane envisioned when he founded his order. He knew that tools of discretion were of supreme importance, not just tools of destruction. When we turn to the rise of the Empire, one of the most thematically integral measurements of Palpatine’s power was his concealment from the Jedi; indeed, his nebulous presence in the Force was even the way his powers initially manifested themselves before his Sith induction, as he made his Force signature amorphous to Darth Plagueis. Therefore, according to Bane’s own doctrine, if the Sith advanced in their ability to hide in plain sight, then the magnitude of their generational leaps can be seen very clearly.

For that reason he understood just how dangerous this new Sith Lord was. He hadn't had a sense of that danger until he had fought Dooku on Geonosis. Then he understood. In self-exile for a thousand years, the Sith had not merely been waiting for an appropriate time to reemerge and exact revenge, but for the birth of one strong enough to embrace the dark side fully and become its dedicated instrument.

This was Sidious: powerful enough to hide in plain sight. Powerful enough to instruct his apprentice, Dooku, to expose him, and still remain hidden from the Jedi. And as arrogant as the Jedi. Convinced that his way was the one and only way.

--Labyrinth of Evil

To provide an example of the Sith’s talent for disguise, after some ten years of apprenticeship to Bane, Darth Zannah once infiltrated the Jedi Temple to peruse their Archives for information on the orbalisks, specifically how to remove them from a host without killing the host. To do this, she cast a spell that concealed her Sith nature behind a veneer of light energy in the Force. She encountered a few Jedi closely during this enterprise, most notably the Archive’s chief librarian, but she also kept to herself.

The only way the plan would work was if she could use the power of Sith sorcery to mask her strength while simultaneously projecting an aura of light-side energy. It was a complicated spell, one she had never tried before. It required a balance of strength and delicacy, and she had practiced it continuously in the weeks leading up to her departure. Yet despite her best efforts, there were still moments when her concentration slipped and her true nature showed through.

"How long do you expect to remain here on Coruscant?" he asked.

"A few days at most," she answered. She doubted she could maintain the illusion that shielded her dark side powers from detection any longer than that. "Master Anno is anxious to continue his research. He wants me to return as soon as I have the information he needs."

She knew she was running out of time, but as she made her way down the first hall toward the rotunda, she was determined to find what she had come for.

There were always a number of other scholars in the Archives, but the primary aisles of each hall were wide, and the stacks were so numerous and deep that Zannah never felt crowded. This allowed her to work without fear of anyone accidentally discovering what she was investigating. However, she still felt a flash of apprehension whenever another of the Archive patrons passed her by, always worried that her projected aura of light-side power would falter.

It was the rumbling in her stomach that told her it was time to take a break. If she became distracted—too tired or too hungry—her spell might falter, exposing Zannah's true nature to those around her. It had happened once before, on the first day when she pushed herself too hard and worked long into the night. It had lasted only an instant, a momentary lapse, but that could have been enough to doom her. Fortunately, at that late hour the Archives had been mostly deserted, and nobody had been close enough to notice the Sith in their midst. Since then, however, Zannah had been much more careful.

She had found it. She had found it! Zannah leapt to her feet, pumping a clenched fist in a quiet victory celebration, barely able to contain a fierce shout of triumph. And in her moment of elation, the spell concealing her true identity slipped.

--Rule of Two

Now to show how far the Sith had come since Zannah’s time, I want to add examples of Darth Sidious concealing his nature from Jedi. It should be noted that Zannah had not yet acquired Sith Mastery when she infiltrated the Temple, and her illusion of light side devotion is of course a different kind of concealment than Palpatine’s, who made his Force sensitivity disappear. But to keep the comparison fair, I will also use examples of Sidious before his own Mastery. More than once he hid his presence in the Force from many Jedi even face to face with little strain and with no apparent limitations; among the Jedi he cloaked his powers from included such legendary and acclaimed masters as Dooku.

In concealing yourself, you will not be able to rely on your dark gifts, Plagueis said. Instead you must be yourself, submerged in the unified pattern to which the Jedi are attuned; visible in the Force, but not as a Sith. Since you cannot allow yourself to be seen, you must make certain that you are taken for granted. Disguised in the profane; camouflaged in the routine—in those same realms from which you can attack without warning when necessary.

Elsewhere on the broad avenue—at key intersections, taxi stops, and mag-lev exits—stood groups of Jedi, a few with the hilts of their lightsabers conspicuously visible. For Palpatine the sight of so many of them in one place was at once exhilarating and sobering. Though thoroughly cloaked in the everyday, he could feel their collective pride trickle into him through the Force.

The contingent of Senators had scarcely left when Palpatine heard his name called; turning, he saw Ronhar Kim in the company of two older human Jedi. Quietly he pulled his powers deeper into himself and adopted a mask of cordiality.

"Jedi Ronhar," he said, inclining his head in greeting.

The black-haired Jedi returned the nod. "Senator Palpatine, may I introduce Masters Dooku and Sifo-Dyas."

Palpatine was familiar with the former, but only by reputation. "A great honor, Masters."

Dooku appraised him openly, then arched his eyebrow. "Excuse me for staring, Senator, but Ronhar's descriptions of you led me to expect someone older."

"I disguise myself well, Master Dooku. My age, that is."

--Darth Plagueis

Now of course, Zannah entered the Temple itself undetected, which I think is a more momentous feat. To offset that, Maul recalled a time early in his apprenticeship when he and Sidious sat outside the Jedi Temple, and Sidious obscured their presence from their collective order as well as any Jedi passerby. Sidious could only achieve this from outside the Temple, but his efforts hid both himself and Maul.

One of his earliest memories was that of being taken to the Jedi Temple. Both he and Sidious had been disguised as tourists. His master's command of the dark side had been sufficient to cloak them from being sensed by their enemies, as long as they did not enter the building. That had been unlikely anyway—the Jedi Temple was not open for tourism. They had stood there for the better part of the day, Darth Sidious pointing out to him the various faces of their foes as the latter came and went. It had been thrilling to Maul to realize that he could stand in the presence of the Jedi, could listen to his master whisper to him of their ultimate downfall, without the having any inkling of the fate that ultimately awaited them.

--Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

And to solidify just how much successive skill the Sith accumulated through the centuries, after ascending to Mastery Palpatine not only entered the Jedi Temple, but with their own invitation he traveled through the Temple to stand in the spire of the Jedi Council chamber amidst the wisest and most tested Jedi Masters of the time, completely unexposed.

Gallery

The scans from Jedi Quest do a great deal to stress the impunity and effortlessness of the Sith’s invisibility to the Jedi. The Sith had arrived at a place where their most powerful member can stand not just before the Jedi Masters but in their own Temple, in their own Council chamber, and still not be scrutinized. Once again, the flawless success of Bane’s tenets displays itself in their fulfillment.

Concealment From the Sith

Tracking along the vein of Force Concealment, we know that the purpose of the Sith’s induced Force-imbalance towards the dark side was to inhibit the vision of the Jedi and to suffuse the galaxy with their own power. But actually the Jedi themselves were not the only victims of the Force-blindness Palpatine caused; the Sith were as well.

Darth Sidious shrouded himself with the dark side so thoroughly that even his fellow Sith Lords were affected by it, none truly sensing the full import of his intentions or Force presence. Before he was even born, the essence of Darth Tenebrous inspected Plagueis’ Force vision to peer into the future, only to find that the future was drowned in darkness by ”the shadow,” Darth Sidious.

Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice's powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment, Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time—to Plagueis' own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself only visible as a smear of darkness...

A shadow!

For an instant, Tenebrous felt the death anguish of Plagueis....and felt the searing agony Plagueis felt....at his failure to have ever created the Force-user Tenebrous was to become! He would allow his own apprentice to kill him too soon....

This could not be. It could not be contemplated, much less allowed to come to pass. Fury competed with panic as Tenebrous threw his mind at the future, seeking to understand how it was Plagueis could be so complacent, so foolish....

So blind.

The searing truth was driven home by the gathering darkness that clouded his borrowed foresight. Soon all he could see of the future was a hazy smear of shadow....as the retrovirus he had become infected Plagueis' every cell. The retrovirus he had allowed to sacrifice his ability to gaze forward in time....and had thus robbed his apprentice of his power to sense the future.

Which would seal his own doom as well.

His single-minded pursuit of eternal life and supreme power had accomplished only this. He would be destroyed by his own triumph.

Now wholly giving himself over to panic, Tenebrous turned his will upon undoing the damage he had done. With all his multiplied power, he yanked his maxi-chlorians back out from Plagueis' body in a spray of Force energy from his eyes, his mouth, the wound and every other cell.

--The Tenebrous Way

When Tenebrous looks into the future through Plagueis’ foresight, his vision is soon swallowed by “a hazy smear of shadow,” which is Palpatine’s darkness permeating the Force. The future imbalance stopped Tenebrous from seeing too far forward, and the only glimpse he could catch of Palpatine's person was as a silhouetted figure. That his retrovirus then quelled Plagueis’ vision was the reason he concluded Plagueis would fail to predict his own death, but even before the retrovirus infects all of Plagueis’ midi-chlorians, Palpatine’s darkness in the Force already impedes Tenebrous’ vision. So even preceding the imbalance of the Force to the dark side, not to mention Palpatine's birth, Sidious’ mere future darkness robbed a Sith Lord two generations behind him of his ability to perceive the future with any clarity.

Then we have Plagueis. Plagueis finds a teenage Palpatine unreadable in the Force, ultimately sensing the Force in him only once his powers exerted themselves. Already the young Palpatine can mask himself in the Force from one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time. But as Sidious told Plagueis on the day that he finally killed him, he had been “clouding” the Muun’s mind for some years. How much truth precisely there is in all of Palpatine’s claims is arguable, but his demonstrated habit of deceiving his master does lend credibility to his otherwise very passion-fueled lambasting.

It’s also interesting to point out that while Tenebrous’ retrovirus may have initially robbed Plagueis of his foresight, the text of The Tenebrous Way says that when Tenebrous separated his consciousness and his maxi-chlorians from Plagueis, this was to “undo the damage he had done.” In other words, it seems that with Tenebrous’ retrovirus out of Plagueis’ system, his midi-chlorians could resume their normal function and permit his usual foresight. This would mean that Sidious betraying Plagueis would owe more to Plagueis’ trust in his apprentice coupled with Sidious’ duplicity toward his master. It would appear then that even Plagueis, one of Palpatine’s most intimate partners, cannot fully ascertain Palpatine’s intentions.

They got up from the bench and began to amble back toward the university complex. Plagueis submergedhimself deeply in the Force to study Palpatine, but he was unable to glean very much.

Again he tried to see deeper into Palpatine, but without success. The psychic walls the youth had raised were impenetrable, which made the young human something rare indeed. Had Palpatine somehow learned to corral the Force within himself, as Plagueis had concealed his own powers as a youth?

Palpatine’s fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted, as well, wobbling on its feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?

"You may be wondering: when did he begin to change? The truth is that I haven’t changed. As we have clouded the minds of the Jedi, I clouded yours. Never once did I have any intention of sharing power with you. I needed to learn from you; no more, no less. To learn all of your secrets, which I trusted you would eventually reveal. But what made you think that I would need you after that? Vanity, perhaps; your sense of self-importance. You’ve been nothing more than a pawn in a game played by a genuine Master.

“The Sith’ari.”

--Darth Plagueis

Touching on Palpatine’s apprentices, during the Clone Wars Darth Maul tells Savage that the master who trained him was “cloaked in the dark side so thickly he was unknowable.” Sith Hunters also once again reinforces that Sidious’ power can be measured by his inscrutability in the Force: Maul says that his master is the most powerful being he ever met in tandem with the description of his mystique.

Gallery

During the Battle of Coruscant, Dooku is confronted by Anakin and Obi-Wan aboard the Invisible Hand. When his perception dips into the Force, he observes the men present: Obi-Wan a bright meadow, Anakin a rolling storm, and Palpatine a black hole, entirely unreadable, “show[ing] nothing of what might be within.” When Palpatine begins to galvanize Anakin’s murderous passion, Dooku wonders who his master’s loyalties truly rest with. Of course, Dooku never learned until the end that Palpatine had lied to him and facilitated his death at Anakin’s hands. The Count couldn’t uncover Sidious’ true intentions. This is also yet another source that extols Palpatine’s powers through the filter of his opaque Force presence.

Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.

Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.

Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado.

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.

A black hole of the Force.

Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.

"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given?

Whose side was he on, anyway?

And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question.

Treachery is the way of the Sith.

--Revenge of the Sith

At the tail-end we have Vader. In addition to deceiving Anakin during his Jedi-hood, Palpatine has many times fogged Vader’s senses during his Sith tenure as well. This scan from Darth Vader and the Ninth Assassin is just one instance.

Gallery

In summary, the Emperor diminished the minds and sensory powers of Jedi and Sith alike through the dissemination of the dark side. His influence was far more pervasive than Sith before him.

Gradation of Imbalance

To bring this to a close, I thought it would be an effective scaling method to show the gradual steps of influence the late Banite Sith Lords had on the Force. We learned from Darth Plagueis that the Jedi of the time had saturated the galaxy with the light side in attempt to extinguish the dark. Around two centuries before the Galactic Empire, Tenebrous’ master had breached this light side aura, and although he didn’t remove it, he did pierce it enough for the dark side to be felt again and possibly shrank the light side “bubble.”

One hundred years earlier, Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened a small rend in the fabric of the Force, allowing the dark side to be felt by the Jedi Order for the first time in more than eight hundred years. That had been the inauguration, the commencement of the revenge of the Sith. And now the time had come to enlarge that rend into a gaping hole, a gaping wound, into which the Republic and the Jedi Order would to their own hazard be drawn.

In a sense, the Jedi Order had done the same on a galactic scale, Plagueis believed, by bathing the galaxy in the energy of the light side of the Force; or more accurately by fashioning a Force bubble that had prevented infiltration by the dark side, until Tenebrous's Master had succeeded in bursting the bubble, or at least shrinking it. How the Order's actions could be thought of as balancing the Force had baffled generations of Sith, who harbored no delusions regarding the Force's ability to self-regulate.

--Darth Plagueis

Over one hundred years later, Plagueis and Sidious’ grandstanding saw them push the Force out of alignment entirely. Where Tenebrous’ master had simply weakened the “bubble,” Plagueis and Sidious actually replaced it with a dark side climate across the galaxy, a definite improvement from their predecessors.

All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.

--Darth Plagueis

Upon Plaguis’ death, Palpatine’s sovereignty over the dark side multiplied such that the novel states “the power of the dark side anoint[ed] him” and “the dark side had made him its property, and now he had made the dark side his.” The dark side became focused and unified within him, and the imbalance of the Force only deepened with Sidious as the sole reigning Dark Lord. This intensification is described much more vividly and dramatically than when Plagueis supplanted his master, and the lengths that the novel goes to to punctuate Sidious’ power is almost unequaled in this timeframe, using such embroidered descriptors as “apotheosis” at the end of the novel and a fear of possibly fading into the Force itself.

At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.

Confident that the will of the dark side had been done, he returned to the suite’s window wall. Two beings in a galaxy of countless trillions, but what had transpired in the suite would affect the lives of all of them. Already the galaxy had been shaped by the birth of one, and henceforth would be reshaped by the death of the other. But had the change been felt and recognized elsewhere? Were his sworn enemies aware that the Force had shifted irrevocably?

In his mouth, Sidious tasted the tang of blood; in his chest, he felt the monster rising, emerging from shadowy depths and contorting his aspect into something fearsome just short of revealing itself to the world.

The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.

Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.

Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?

--Darth Plagueis

His powers continued to increase until Attack of the Clones when the shroud of the dark side at last fell and the Clone Wars began, sinking the Force more into darkness. It was only at this time that the Jedi as a whole began to experience the cumbersome effects of the dark side.

"Master Yoda, what do you sense?" Mace Windu prompted.

"Impossible to see, the future is," the small Jedi Master replied, his great orbs still looking inward. "The dark side clouds everything. But this I am sure of..." He popped open his eyes and stared hard at Palpatine. "Do their duty, the Jedi will."

"Why couldn't we see this attack on the Senator?" Mace pondered, shaking his head. "This should have been no surprise to the wary, and easy for us to predict."

"Masking the future is this disturbance in the Force," Yoda replied. The diminutive Jedi seemed tired.

Mace understood well the source of that weariness. "The prophecy is coming true. The dark side is growing."

"The dark side, I feel," he said. "And all is cloudy."

Mace nodded and turned a grim expression on the others.

"Master Obi-Wan, not victory," Yoda went on. "The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun, this Clone War has!"

--Attack of the Clones

This was Mace's particular gift: to see how people and situations fit together in the Force, to find the shear planes that can cause them to break in useful ways, and to intuit what sort of strike would best make the cut. Though he could not consistently determine the significance of the structures he perceived—the darkening cloud upon the Force that had risen with the rebirth of the Sith made that harder and harder with each passing day—the presence of shatterpoints was always clear.

Anakin was somehow a pivot point, the fulcrum of a lever with Obi-Wan on one side, Palpatine on the other, and the galaxy in the balance, but the dark cloud on the Force prevented his perception from reaching into the future for so much as a hint of where this might lead.

The Coruscant nightfall was spreading through the galaxy. The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception.

War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception.

--Revenge of the Sith

The Dark Empire Sourcebook says that Palpatine alone has spread his darkness across the galaxy; while that comment may not bear all the same connotations that the prequel era would have it due to publication dates, the same sourcebook does describe balance and imbalance in the Force and the rise of the dark side in recent times. So I think it’s retroactive use in this context is fitting. Without getting too far afield, the Emperor’s objective to subdue the galaxy was only a launching point according to DES; after that his plan was to darken other galaxies under his Force-driven Empire as well, which presupposes the capacity of his powers to expand beyond the galactic range.

He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.

Only Palpatine has been able to spread his darkness completely and totally over an entire galaxy.

--Dark Empire Sourcebook

What’s probably the most impressive part about the Banite Sith’s reshaping of the fabric of the Force is their paltry number as opposed to the many thousands of Jedi. The Jedi Order blanketing the galaxy in light can almost be understood considering their numbers, influence, and prestige, but the Sith Lords overturned their light side “bubble” in secret with only a handful of members. Each one built on the foundation of the former and preponderated their late confederate’s work. Tenebrous’ master merely reduced the excess light, Plagueis and Sidious brought the dark side out of suppression, and Sidious finally suppressed the light. Their growth is precisely what the line was intended for.

For the sake of brevity, the primary points of the above essay are:

• Bane wanted the diffused power of the Brotherhood of the Darkness to be harnessed by a single individual. Palpatine’s destructive power eclipsed that of the whole Brotherhood, just as Bane wanted.
• The early Sith such as Zannah managed to clandestinely infiltrate the Jedi Order but with some struggle. Late Sith Lords such as Plagueis and Sidious could calmly engage Jedi in conversation and even later stroll about the Jedi Council Chamber casually.
• Darth Sidious could vanish from the perception of both the Jedi and Sith, again surpassing previous generations.
• The procession of the dark side’s ascendancy spanned a few generations of Sith Lords and climbed to new heights each time. Tenebrous master broke through the light side “bubble,” Plagueis and Sidious tipped the balance towards the dark side, and Sidious personally deepened the darkness in the Force over the years and caused the “shroud of the dark side” phenomenon during the Clone Wars.

All thing considered, the Banite Sith are the consummate dark side masters. Their continual development is underscored by a myriad of sources and direct comparisons, and their achievements rose to staggering heights eclipsing other Sith factions before them.

@silver2467:

Bane wanted the diffused power of the Brotherhood of the Darkness to be harnessed by a single individual. Palpatine’s destructive power eclipsed that of the whole Brotherhood, just as Bane wanted

Actually, Bane himself could be argued (as Az did on KMC) to have achieved that goal, given that he felt more powerful with just two Orbalisks than he ever was before.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t650476.html

And the most impressive part is that Sidious, even as of TPM, would one-shot people infinitely above prime Bane (e.g. Tenebrous' master).

@zapan871: I was about to bring that up, yeah.

@silver2467: Thank you for your praise. Yours was a brilliant post as well. My intention for this thread was more to hype up the likes of Tenebrous and other Banites rather than Sidious, however, as I mentioned in the blog itself, the Galactic Emperor doesn't need Banite scaling to be considered King of the Hill, so making a section for him would be superfluous at best. Your post can stay, since as I already proclaimed, it is truly excellent, but it may have better been served here:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/darth-sidioussheev-palpatine-super-respect-thread-1877280/

You can also post other sources there if you have any.

@darthskywalker0 said:

Okay. I'll try to clarify.

I'm aware of all this. Maybe it just went over my head, but I don't really see how the space-time anatomy of the storms takes anything away from my point.

While it may be true that Palpatine's death did not close the wormhole forthwith, the short-term effect was the end of the Storm. So immediate or not, his personal participation does have an impact on its cohesion, as your quote from the DE sourcebook says.

I'm addressing these lines together because they form a unified point.

Concerning the creation of the hyperspace wormholes, it absolutely is a demonstration of personal power. We know this from several sources, including The Book of Anger. Palpatine describes how summoning the dark side by the synthesis of anger and will in the "vital center" of the body releases "tremendous energies."

And anger that becomes rage, when channeled through the “vital gate” in the center of the body, can unleash absolutely unstoppable potency through the body.

I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released—the energies of the dark side of the Force.

Using this knowledge, I can unleash the dark side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms.

--Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

--Dark Empire Endnotes

Creation of a Force Storm demands fine control, deep emotion, and a vast reservoir of energies. It's not a power that any master of the Force can summon without a tremendous amount of Force energies at their disposal; the Dark Side Adepts, for instance, manipulated the wormholes but as far as I know couldn't trigger them on the fly. Therefore, it is a manifestation of Palpatine's personal power as the endnotes say, "...the Emperor...has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that...burst open the fabric of space." This is even stated in Dark Empire through the Emperor's dialog and through the narration: "...But utter imbecile that you are, you have still failed to understand my power," "...Luke and Leia watch the Emperor's rage take form, as a great storm of raw energy rends the fabric of space itself," "Now you will experience my full potency." It's obviously something only an extremely powerful individual with enormous Force reserves can accomplish.

Just like any other Force technique, the Force Storm is limited to the control and energy of the individual. This is corroborated by the fact that not every wormhole is equal to another. The New Essential Chronology states that the Force Storm over Da Soocha was "far more powerful" than that over Coruscant, defining a disparity. Then we have Palpatine's written aspiration in The Book of Anger:

In time, the channeled anger of the dark side will prove just as destructive as the Death Star. There will no longer be a need for costly constructions.

--Book of Sith

Not certain that's really feasible, but wishful thinking or not, it's clear that the Emperor's practice of meditating anger and will can increase to more and more powerful applications of the Force as his mastery is refined and his energies are consolidated.

So overall, yes, the wormholes are a manifestation of Sidious' personal power.

That's fine, and I probably could've articulated my point better. The bottom line is that the entire Brotherhood of Darkness could lay waste to entire battlefields and forest landscapes, but Palpatine can do better by himself. That he does so by a different means than they did isn't the point; that much is obvious, since their energies seamed together into a fiery wave while Palpatine's shatter space-time. The point is about the what, not the how; the what is the area of effect of their destructive force.

Hey, Zapan. Good to see you around.

Emperordmb made a similar case in a debate I had with him a while back, although he hearkened back to the example of Cognus' postcognition on Ambria, and it's a pretty sound case. Bane is more powerful than the flood of energies that razed Ambria. However, I don't believe that bit of scaling denotes that Bane himself could destroy the surface of a planet, because the specific iteration of Bane that Cognus saw through the past was the one who searched for Caleb on Ambria, that is, PoD Bane; if PoD Bane could destroy planetary surfaces, he wouldn't have needed the Brotherhood's collective power for the ritual on Ruusan. Not sure about RoT or DoE Bane, but I feel like if RoT Bane with orbalisks could single-handedly summon a wave of power like the ritual on Ruusan, his outburst on his camp would've looked more like a natural disaster on the whole region, not just a futile Force-powered head-banging on his belongings.

I understand that sometimes scaling methods are used to imply parity in usable power, but practically speaking, it doesn't necessarily mean that "A is stronger than B, so A can do whatever B can." Palpatine is stronger than Plagueis, but we know for certain that he couldn't quite duplicate all of his master's feats with midi-chlorian manipulation. Tenebrous is stronger than Zannah, but he didn't benefit from her sorcery. So on and so on. There's a difference between acquired power and acquired technique.

If it was a shared power like telekinesis where two characters have a recorded history of mastering that ability, you could reasonably conclude that one character's feats would be translatable to another, but where more arcane powers are being discussed, I don't think one character's accrued powers can automatically be replicated by a more powerful Force user.

I realize that may fly in the face of some people's use of power scaling, but to me, there are enough idiosyncrasies among Force sensitives that mark definite parameters to their list of usable techniques, regardless of who is stronger than who on paper. That said, I do think there are a number of abilities that could be implicit for one character by comparison with another, especially where two characters learned the same power or profit from the same knowledge base. So this is certainly debatable, possibly even a case-by-case subject. I haven't really nailed down a scaling method that feels sure-fire across the board.

Thanks. And yeah, maybe I should've posted this elsewhere. I've been away from activity for a while; so whatever progress you guys have made in character analyses is beyond me, with the exception of what few blogs I've read recently. For all I know, every point in my post has already been accepted into the general consensus, or it might be completely new material. If you say it's superfluous, you're probably right.

I realize too that my comment shifted gears in the emphasis of the thread a bit, but I still felt like it was relevant for the purpose of showing just how far the Order had come by the end.

I don't think there's anything for me to contribute to your thread, unless what I posted here is of some value there; if that is the case, you can take whatever you want here and post it in your OP there at your leisure.

Fair enough. Like you said, this might just be a question of semantics then, but let's talk about it anyway. It's good discussion.

No, the summoner definitely generates the power initially, but you could argue that the wormhole becomes somewhat self-sustaining upon its completion. That still doesn't undermine what the Dark Empire Sourcebook said though, that "if the user is destroyed, the storm dissipates within minutes." If the wormhole were totally independent of its maker, the user's death would be totally inconsequential. There's clearly more of a middle ground here.

Frankly, this seems like trying to split hairs where the hairs don't split. The wormhole itself is generated by Sidious' personal power; therefore the energies of the wormhole are a result of his personal power. I think that's pretty self-explanatory.

Not sure I understand the relevance of this. Under what circumstances and with what success can Nadd and other ancient Sith create wormholes, no one knows. Nadd and other ancient Sith could also use telekinesis and lightning, but that doesn't mean they can do so as resourcefully or as powerfully as the Emperor can. Even Plagueis' midi-chlorian manipulation was implied to be known by ancient Sith like Exar Kun, but no one can question that Plagueis is the cardinal master of the art. Likewise, the ability to use the Force Storm is impressive but still well shy of Palpatine, who has definitely been decorated with more mastery and feats with them than anyone else. In fact, the only other character known to have created a wormhole did so with an artifact, as opposed to Palpatine who can do so unassisted "with mere thought and inclination."

My view comes from both as well as the ability to operate it with accuracy, but I guess that's just a matter of perspective. Regardless, the size of the destruction is all my first post in this thread made reference to anyway. I was simply comparing the scale of destruction that Palpatine unleashed with that of the Brotherhood of Darkness. That's all.

Unless your condition is procedural specificity, I still don't see the difference between saying "Palpatine's powers can ravage worlds" and "Palpatine's powers can create a wormhole that ravages worlds." One is the twin of the other.

:)

Yeah, that'd be pretty par for the course for me. LOL.

I think mostly, yes, with one or two minor misgivings, but this might just be a choice of words more than substance.

@darthskywalker0 said:

I disagree in light of the citations already posted that identify the energy and power of the user to be the source of the storm and the fact that there really isn't anything in the source material that distinguishes the energy storm from the rip in space-time, but fair enough.

"Other friends have flown before. On the morrow, he will leave me, as my Hopes have flown before."

Serious answer, can't really say. Depends on my priorities and time.

Exceptional work!

@dawn_of_ages: Thank you, my apprentice.

The text doesn't rigidly constrain us to take the interpretation you derived from it. It's certainly a valid point of view, but it does no violence to the text or to the English language to prefer the far simpler and more straightforward interpretation that I've advocated heretofore, that interpretation being that the power of the wormhole is a manifestation of the power of the maker and that the energies of the wormhole spring from the maker.

To supply you a counterexample:

Suddenly, before their eyes, a Force storm of dark side energy ripped open space itself.

--The Official Star Wars Fact File #98

Luke and Leia barely made it off the Eclipse and to the safety of a Republic ship. From there, brother and sister watched the dark side energy destroy the Emperor's ship before it faded and vanished.

--The Official Star Wars Fact File #105

The first quote says that the Force storm rips open the fabric of space, which either reverses the sequence of the wormhole's creation according to your quotes or doesn't distinguish the rend in space-time from the "storm" proper. The second says in no uncertain terms that the wormhole is "dark side energy" which devoured the Eclipse. That the storm's composition is specifically "dark side energy" compromises your argument that the destructive power of the wormhole is merely the natural by-product of a space-time anomaly and not a manifestation of the maker's personal energies. This was substantiated much earlier in our discussion with the quotes from The Book of Anger, which dissect the process of releasing "dark side energies" through emotion and will from the "vital gate" of the body.

None of the quotes you've provided are nearly as binding as you suggest. Your interpretation more require us to read them with your conclusion being preconceived as the filter for interpreting them, but the conclusion is not obligatory for the text and is almost absent from the collective evidence.

That's a rather spurious objection given that we've seen many Force sensitives failing to control the power they release, even when employing powers which according to you stem more immediately from the user.

Githany nodded. "It's a remarkable sensation," she agreed. "But you must be careful not to lose yourself in it." She was parroting the words of Master Qordis, who had taught her how to summon Force lightning only a few days earlier. However, she had never conjured anything even approaching the majesty of what Bane had just unleashed.

"You must maintain control, or you could find yourself swept up in the storm along with your enemies," she told him, trying to mimic the calm, slightly condescending tone the Masters used with their apprentices.

--Path of Destruction

Death field: An unstoppable concentration of dark side energy projected from your physical animus in the shape of a sphere. Any living being entering the field will wither into a dry husk. It is sustained by your will, but it will try to consume you as well.

--Book of Sith

When reading the passages from Githany on Force Lightning and Bane on Death Field, I see warnings tantamount to the ones faced by a learner of the Force Storm: the peril that awaits those without the conditioned mastery to control it. Most importantly and most contrary to your assertion, lightning and Death Field are powers which are generated from the user's immediate person and individual reserves, and yet they still pose a threat to the user.

Evidently, there is reason for the Jedi not to have control over their own power. Just like everything else, the Force Storm requires training to master; that isn't a repudiation of the power demanded of the user to create it.

Once again, this seems like forcing an interpretation onto the text that isn't to be found in the text itself. As I supplied quotes for, the Force Storm is channeled "dark side energy" that rends space-time. Palpatine's entry in Book of Sith more favors this interpretation as well.

It must be understood that anger can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the "vital gate." The destruction that can be unleashed by this method is immense. Thousands of enemies can be annihilated in a single act of malice.

In time, the channeled anger of the dark side will prove just as destructive as the Death Star. There will no longer be a need for costly constructions. Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning.

This technique can be increased into a Force Storm. The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touches, for at its eye is pure hate. Just as a black hole devours a star, this storm can swallow armies and fold space. It may take decades to master this art, but once I have perfected it, I will be invincible.

Anger has more uses than personal strength. A strong ruler knows that fear can keep commoners in line, but anger can weaken enemies.

--Book of Sith

According to the Emperor, the principle by which he manifests the Force Storm is the same as that which manifests the Force Maelstrom. Force Maelstrom combines three powers which are undoubtedly evidence of the user's individual energies: telekinesis, lightning, and barrier. He then expands on that thought to the Force Storm, which is an "increase" from the former; ergo, just as a user's anger and will command vast energies for the Force Maelstrom, it does the same for the Force Storm. He also says that a Force Storm can either eradicate foes or "fold space," which again reverses the developmental sequence of the quotes you posted. Finally, he concludes that section by saying, "Anger has more uses than personal strength." In context of what preceded it, this one sentence is unequivocal proof that the Force Storm and its much lauded destructive power are indeed nothing other than a grandiose demonstration of personal strength.

To repeat from earlier: if the wormhole were entirely independent of the maker, then the maker's death would have entirely no effect on its preservation, but the DE sourcebook states clearly that it does. Like I said, there's clearly more of a middle ground to be reached on that point.

The "aftershock," as you put it, is most certainly created by Palpatine. This is the full quote:

The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexusof dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

--Dark Empire Endnotes

Palpatine has become, not merely creates, a nexus of dark side energies, and these energies which form him burst open space-time and "tear apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine." This is perhaps the single most unambiguous of the quotes posted, and its meaning is plain: Palpatine's personal energies tear apart space-time, flesh, and inanimate objects.

There's really no reason to insert a gap between two phrases separated by a comma and fill that gap with a foregone conclusion about the fundamental makeup of a relatively transparent phenomenon. The basic and most obvious interpretation is that Palpatine's powers can destroy fleets of ships and ravage worlds.

That said, I do understand your side, and I can respect your interpretation. If nothing else, we can agree to disagree.

Likewise, my friend.

@silver2467: @darthskywalker0: If either of you don't mind me interjecting, I would argue that neither interpretation has to cancel each other out. The actual Dark Empire comic itself presents us with an interesting idea:

Gallery

In the first scan, Luke notes how "a vast evil is approaching," foretelling the arrival of the Emperor's Force Storm seen in the second scan, and that "it is beginning now... out there somewhere." After that, in the latter scan he states "it is coming out of hyperspace," immediately after which the Force Storm appears, and the narration tells us "a hyperspace wormhole has opened in the night... and a mighty energy storm emerges!" The most important thing to note is that the "hyperspace wormhole" and the "energy storm" are treated as two separate phenomena. Luke sensed that the energy storm was travelling through hyperspace, and the narration stated the energy storm emerged from the wormhole. So just from this alone one might conclude that the Emperor requires a prior rend in space-time for an actual Force Storm to form, but the comic continues:

Gallery

Here we see that another wormhole exists within the energy storm, which would coincide with the interpretation that the Storm can bend space-time on its own, which Palpatine notes in Book of the Sith. To further support this, we have two scans from the final battle of Dark Empire:

Gallery

The narration notes that "a great storm of raw energy rends the fabric of space itself," which clearly aligns with the idea that the Force Storm itself rends reality. Furthermore, there is no prior wormhole or rend in space-time from which the energy storm would emerge to be seen, indicating that the Emperor created it independently of any such reality-warping.

So the same comic depicts the creation of Force Storms in two entirely separate ways. What does this mean, then? Well, essentially, that both of your interpretations are correct: there is no single way in which a Force Storm can be created; there are two, and the Emperor has mastered both of them, per his own words. In Book of the Sith, he describes how a Force Storm can be created in the same way any other relatively rudimentary ability such as lightning or telekinesis as Silver so neatly explained. In the Dark Empire Audio Drama, he states how a Force Storm is formed as a consequence of ripping apart the fabric of space. Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force combines these two explanations beautifully, in which Palpatine states he can achieve a Force Storm either through shattering space-time first or by simply willing it to form on its own:

I hope this proved insightful.

@azronger: Good post. Agreed completely.

@silver2467: Thanks

@azronger: Another, very simple, method that should make the Banite scaling rock solid is Zannah's growth from Rot to Doe. You might already be aware of it, but I think it's worth adding because it makes the case for later Banite Sith extremely difficult to oppose at worst.

At the end of Rot, she was much weaker than Bane, enough that the latter could snap her neck with the Force:

He was still unconscious, lying on his back on the gurney as she had left him. She stepped forward to check his vitals and his eyes flew open, burning with rage.

His hand snapped out and seized her wrist, clenching it with the strength of an iron claw. "Where are the Jedi?" he asked in a fierce whisper, fixing her with a look of pure hatred as he lifted himself up onto one elbow. His grip on her wrist tightened, making her wince. "They're gone " she said, trying to stay calm. "They've gone back to Coruscant." She could feel Bane's power-whole once more-coursing through his veins. She could feel the heat of his anger, and she knew one wrong word and he'd snap her neck in two with the Force.

-- Darth Bane: Rule Of Two

This being Bane without his Orbalisk armor.

Yet, by Doe, she was too powerful for him, in spite of the fact that Bane would also have grown stronger since the end of Rot, even if you don't believe he surpassed his Orbalisk armor iteration:

-- Star Wars Fact File 64 (Relaunched)

This clearly indicates vast growth on her part, and it all happened in just a decade, as opposed to the time she and her successors (all of whom would grow at a faster rate than her due to greater potential) had after killing their masters, i.e. roughly 30 years on average.

@zapan871: That's a pretty good point actually. If we can measure the level of growth of the apprentice relative to the master, we can surely measure how far apart the later iterations of the Banite line are from Bane.

@zapan871: Good point.

@zapan871: Great find.

So I'm curious. There's a quote for Darth Bane from a recent Fact File I saw a while back which says something to the effect that Bane acquired knowledge and power above and beyond any Sith before him, not just his immediate predecessors in the Brotherhood. I'm fairly certain Emperordmb has it in his respect thread. Does anyone take this at face value and rank Bane above every Old Republic Sith Lord? If so, why? If not, why not?

@silver2467: The Fact File in question is Canon, unfortunately.

@silver2467:

Does anyone take this at face value and rank Bane above every Old Republic Sith Lord?

We had to get author confirmation that it was Canon only. So for a solid two months last year Bane was > Valk

Twas crazy.

@silver2467: Not really, but the resources he had at his disposal do place him above a number of Ancient Sith (e.g. Sadow and Nadd) in terms of sheer knowledge (not necessarily mastery, though), given that he had all of their secrets and then some. At the same time, he clearly isn't more knowledgeable than, say, Valkorion, or even his equal.

@azronger said:

I see.

If more Legends characters from the Old Republic era are canonized though, this accolade might be useful for you guys in the future.

I missed a lot, didn't I? That sounds like it would set the whole SW debating community into a pandemonium. LOL.

My thoughts as well.