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    Power in fiof Yoda... Decreasing ?

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    xolthol

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    #1  Edited By xolthol

    I find this quote in the jedi path...

    "For control, visit the Temple’s Kuddaka chamber, where the Muntuur Stones are kept. Each stone weighs several tons, so merely jostling one can be marked as a success. Master Fae, it should be noted, can levitate all six after entering a state of deep meditation.

    —The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

    “Impressive! While size matters not, only five can I lift since I passed 700.”

    —Yoda"->before he can lift 6...

    After reading lots on CV this surprise me.... I remember lots of debaters explaining that the aging process is counter by the augmentation of the link with the force. Is this an incoherence of the SW EU or the reality...

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    xolthol

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    #2  Edited By xolthol

    Some callout : @azronger, @I_like_sword, @decaf_wizzard, @redheaten

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    silvanus

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    That would put Fae Coven above RoTS Yoda in terms of force. Doesn't seem consistent.

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    xolthol

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    #4  Edited By xolthol

    @silvanus: only on a TK level... But even with that give me proof (other than just your thought) of Yoda not decreasing in the force .

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    silvanus

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    I haven't read or heard anything that supports Yoda not becoming weaker. Perhaps he is. However I do have difficulty to take Fae's superiority even if it is in TK over the one who knocked the strongest sith lord ever with a force push without a pinch of salt.

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    xolthol

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    @silvanus: Yes seems surprising also for me but if I haven't any counter proof I'm obliged to considered this as the reality.

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    KeenCraft

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    @silvanus: Why would this be so difficult to believe, there is pure power and then there is combat efficiency. There could have been bountiful amounts of force users that have surpassed Yoda and Sidious in certain respective abilities.

    Fae was a scholar and a sage, a powerful one, but there is no way to judge whether she could apply these levels of power in a combative sense however. We dont see evidence of her being the same level of fighter as Yoda; who is the most well-roundedly powerful Jedi of all time (by his era).

    I can be much stronger than someone but if I do not know how to apply my strength properly in combat, then I will not win against the almost comparably strong but skilled fighter every time. This is just a tangible, physical, earthly example but if I have bad form then my hits will be weaker despite my strength.

    We see feats with Vitiate(valk) and Nihilus that are equal and sometimes greater to what Sidious can do. Both certainly seem to surpass his draining abilities. Vitiate seems to rival Sidious with lightning to some extent. Dooku's skill with a lightsaber may rival Sidious's own.

    This doesnt make any of these characters comparable to the most well-roundedly powerful sith of all time. Vitiate can hardly battle with a lightsaber and he is MUCH MUCH slower than Sidious. Nihilus is inferior to both and can't even seem to replicate his showings on a whim. Nihilus may have some TK accomplishment (depending on how many grains of salt you attribute to him moving the Ravager). He is still inferior to Sidious in combative TK force use. Dooku is also slower in speed and is outmatched by the force in every way.

    All of these characters probably get speedblitzed or destroyed with TK despite powers rivalling or even surpassing Sidious in a singular form.

    Rivalling or excelling against another character in a single aspect means nothing to power. I wish more people would realize this instead of lowballing feats to di**ride top tier contenders. (Not saying thats what you did of course. Im talking in general when I see debates lol).

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    silvanus

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    @keencraft: That makes sense. Sidious does have a bunch of crazy force feats. But yeah, I get your point.

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    deactivated-6034d0d6dcbf4

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    That is the proof aging is not automatically a way to increase force power as someone stubbornly believes

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    dark-sith123

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    Well, maybe there is such a thing as "Prime Yoda", and that RotS Yoda is indeed post prime.

    A notion supported by this quote too:

    Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

    Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
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    xolthol

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    @killbilly:

    I will try to explain more deeply why I think that Yoda power in force decrease.

    First of all the quotes from Mace saying that Yoda decrease is from : Darth Maul Shadow Hunter.

    I-Honing of abilities because of war ?

    I think the explanation is rather simple. A life of meditation and pacifism isn't going to allow you to hone your abilities.

    It seems pretty unfair to say that before the clone wars itself, Jedi in general and Yoda in particular weren't in some conflict and fighting which force them to use the force and their lightsaber skills. Just as an exemple the jedi take part into the war of kaleesh and were the main reason for Grievous defeat.

    Moreover on a more intellectual point of view, the fact that you aren't in war isn't equals to do nothing particularly in the way of the force. You will try to have a deeper understanding of it, you will try to open yourself more than before on it. All of this will allow you to become more powerful in the way of the force. I can agree that you will not too often use your power in real situation but you will train yourself to be ready to this potential situation. Moreover, you will also studied more and being able to learn new power by working hard on precise subject because you have the time to do it.

    Having to prepare to use them in life or death situations and actually direct them towards an important purpose would.

    Here I higly disagree with you. Situation of permanent war, at least for a brief period of time (like it was during the CW), will just increase your experince of this situation, you will be able to understand things faster because you have learn the things by the hard way. During the time of war you have absolutely no choice either learn quick and efficiently to survive or fail and die. This will be obviously a way to select people.

    However I can agree that wartime is a period where some extraordinary things can happend but they are so circumstancial and so particular that we cannot take them as the normal way of war and they absolutely not transfer as a substantial growth. To my point the best exemple of this idea is that:

    No Caption Provided

    And she successfully hold it enought time for ki-adi-mundi and the clones to ga far enought not to be damaged by the explosion. But this is a feat which is clearly due to huge circumstances and no one will argue that under normal situation she would be able to do this.

    When is an athlete going to be at their best? During the off season or during the time leading up to the events they'll be participating in?

    First of all I think that the way you use the comparison is pretty bad then the comparison itself isn't the best.

    You compare the time before TPM as a off-season period. This isn't right, Jedi keep training themself during this peace time. This is far more similar to the period just before a competition, you are training yourself with a good regularity in order to be ready for the next competition that you know will come one day or another. And this is something that I want to point out, Jedi of this era know that Sith will comeback one day or another. Just remember that Darth Tenebrous' master have been able to tears the force itself to allow the darkside to be feel by the jedi in the galaxy, and because of this they begin to have a sort of slow down. So they know that Sith are coming back, so they will keep training themselves.

    Now a better comparison to my point of view is the military one in the real world. The soldiers keep training themself durin peace era in order to be ready when the next war will come. During this time period, they learn some technics and work themselfs to improve their physical capacity. When the war come, they can continue to work on their technics learn and can even increase their efficiencity to use them but they won't increase their physical capacity, at most they will keep it and at worse loose it because during war time you don't need the best physical capacity but way more the most efficient use of your capacity.

    On this point my last argument will be based on the force itself. As I have already point out, Tenebrous' master have begin the comeback of the darkside on the galaxy. Because of this jedi were weakened:

    One hundred years earlier, Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened a small rend in the fabric of the Force, allowing the dark side to be felt by the Jedi Order for the first time in more than eight hundred years. That had been the inauguration, the commencement of the revenge of the Sith. And now the time had come to enlarge that rend into a gaping hole, a gaping wound, into which the Republic and the Jedi Order would to their own hazard be drawn.

    The rend that Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened in the fabric of the Force had been felt by the Jedi, and already the Order was beginning to show signs of circumspection and languor.

    When Plagueis and Sidious shift the balance of the force this has been way more than what Tenebrous master have done

    All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

    And this disbalanced in the force will increase even in the CW itself:

    "Impossible to see, the future is," the small Jedi Master replied, his great orbs still looking inward. "The dark side clouds everything. But this I am sure of..." He popped open his eyes and stared hard at Palpatine. "Do their duty, the Jedi will."

    "Why couldn't we see this attack on the Senator?" Mace pondered, shaking his head. "This should have been no surprise to the wary, and easy for us to predict."

    "Masking the future is this disturbance in the Force," Yoda replied. The diminutive Jedi seemed tired.

    As you can see, the dark side have just grew to an unreach proportion before (at least during Yoda's life). So because of this I think this is pretty unlikely in this dark time where the DS cloud everything and where the future is unpredictable to a jedi like Yoda who have decrease for around 200 years to suddenly increase up to a point never reach just because of the fact that he fight in a war.

    II-The Muuntur stones

    No Caption Provided

    A famous grouping of seven stones once held aloft by Ferleen Snee using only the Force. Each of the Muntuur stones weighed at least 5 metric tons.

    - Taken from Complete Encyclopedia

    This is nearly all information that we have about the Muuntur stones. So first of all:

    But the heaviest of the stones is stated to weigh "little more" then 5 tons... They canonically cannot weigh "way more." :/

    As you can read here, they weighted "at least" 5 metrics tons, not little more than 5 metrics tons, so they could canonically weighted way more. Now the interresting point here is that Yoda is impressed by the feat of master Fae which have been able to levitate all the six stones when in deep meditation. And Yoda isn't the only guy impress by this feat because it have been recorded in the book also.

    To be clear we have several feat from all the star wars timeline before AOTC which are way more impressive than being able to lift around 35 metric tons, and this feat weren't done in deep meditation state. And we know that Master Yoda is by accolade the most powerful jedi who have walk in the temple:

    Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

    I will give you a little list of TK feat that are bigger than lifting 35 meter tons, coming from people who are canonically inferior to Yoda:

    -Aryn Leener was able to TK-thrown th six cars of a cargo

    Aryn gestured at a cargo tram near the three men shooting at them from behind. The six cars of the tram rushed toward the men, propelled by Aryn’s power. They scrambled aside, and Aryn and Zeerid dashed for Fatman.

    From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived)

    -Satele shan crushed dozen of hex droid in matter of second (the description showes that she transform them into balls so she ust have lift them for at least some moments

    "The Grand Master possessed prodigious Force powers. A gesture crushed hexes into balls or blew them apart from the inside. A look stilled them in mid-lunge while Ax rushed in to finish them off. In a matter of moments, the dozen were dealt with and Ax was looking around for more."

    ―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Fatal Alliance

    -The outlander lift the Gravestone out of the mud with the little help of Lana Beniko and Senya but this two have so little TK feats under their belt that we can assume that the Outlander mostely done this by himself.

    Loading Video...

    7:22-8:11

    Vaylin while countless time before her prime moove an platform which is just insanely huge:

    Loading Video...

    7:13- 7:26

    Malgus while severly injuried and vastly pre-prime hold severals tons of metallic rubble.

    Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.

    He'd been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he'd failed to properly evaluate the Jedi's power. He'd surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash into the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi's eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged.

    Source: The Third Lesson

    I think that I have provided enough exemple of feats which are far more impressive than lifting 35 tons while in intense meditation.

    So now you have two possibilities:

    1. Claiming that the Muuntur stones only weight 5 metrics tons and then explaining that clearly Yoda is a poor jedi before AOTC (which seems really strange knowing that he is grandmaster) and that the jedi order sage who write the books was unaware of far more impressive feat.
    2. Agreeing with me and thinking that whether Muuntur stones weight way more than 5 metric tons or have a "spiritual weight" which could explain why it have been so impressive from Yoda point of view to be able to lift the six.

    I think that the hypothesis provided by ILS and shootingnova is pretty interresting knowing that there have a precedent on particular places where the stones have some strange properties.

    The Blue Stone (from darthbane77 debunking Yoda mountain feat)

    The blue stones seen in the comic are unique, it's not normal rock. The stone is stated as being "alive" in the Force by Yoda.

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-6079778

    It's also seen that consuming the stones increases ones' own power in the Force. Yoda states again that the stone is strong in the Force.

    https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_medium/11122/111229949/6079597-2.jpg

    The stones are alive in the Force to an extent the Jedi had never before seen.

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-6079782

    It's evident that the stone is not normal, based on these two scans, and so the conventional laws of Telekinesis shouldn't be applied to it.

    Conclusion:

    To sumarize my point:

    • it's seems really unlikely for Yoda to have increase so hugely just because of a war.
    • the muuntur stones must weight way more than 5 metric tons each ( they could physically weight more or have a "spiritual weight")

    If we take into account we can easily agree that Yoda wasn't in his prime during the event of the prequels. He was on a decreasing slope since (at least) his 700. So he is past prime by a huge margin when he fight Sidious.

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    xolthol

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    #12  Edited By xolthol

    @redheathen@rgr

    I'm not sure what to make of age affecting power. In Legends you have quotes that seem to imply Yoda decreasing in TK and speed with age or that Qui-Gon was past his prime in TPM, and then you have Sidious being vastly more powerful by RotJ (and DE) than he was in RotS, or Dooku growing in power troughout the Clone Wars.

    Yeah, I have the same thoughts as you. @xolthol, this is the biggest issue for me in regards to yoda getting weaker with age. ^^^

    Well this two exemple can be explained but first let me say that I didn't think that: aging =>weakening in the force. To explain clearly myself: I think that when you are aging you are forced to compensate with the force in order to stay as powerful as before, but you also increase your connection to the force so you can become more powerful. Just that after a certain age you will decrease in power because your body is dying and even with the force this won't be enough (remember that Midi-chlorian are in living cells).

    Now for Dooku, his grow was during a pretty little period (the clone war) so the aging process shouldn't be take into account here, compare to the life of a man the clone war was pretty short (Count Dooku live 83 years and the clone war was during 3 years ). This isn't a clear contradiction to this theory.

    For Sidious some other aspect must be take into account for RotJ being above RotS:

    1. First of all the dissepearing of the jedi and the growth of the sith order (through sith accolytes and so on) increase the disbalance of the force. So the dark-side is stronger in the galaxy so all DS user are more powerfull (during all the empire time, the number of jedi have decrease).
    2. He was draining over Byss for a pretty long period of time
    3. When he died, like count dooku he stay relatively young (keep in the mind that the SW universe is way more technologicaly advance than our so it seems reasonable to agree on the fact that 86 years isn't so old)

    For DE sidious this isn't the same: Sidious have a clone body so clearly his body wasn't old at all. The fact that he became stronger in DE can clearly seen as the proof that the aging process have an impact on force users.

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    redheathen

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    @xolthol said:

    @redheathen@rgr

    I'm not sure what to make of age affecting power. In Legends you have quotes that seem to imply Yoda decreasing in TK and speed with age or that Qui-Gon was past his prime in TPM, and then you have Sidious being vastly more powerful by RotJ (and DE) than he was in RotS, or Dooku growing in power troughout the Clone Wars.

    Yeah, I have the same thoughts as you. @xolthol, this is the biggest issue for me in regards to yoda getting weaker with age. ^^^

    Well this two exemple can be explained but first let me say that I didn't think that: aging =>weakening in the force. To explain clearly myself: I think that when you are aging you are forced to compensate with the force in order to stay as powerful as before, but you also increase your connection to the force so you can become more powerful. Just that after a certain age you will decrease in power because your body is dying and even with the force this won't be enough (remember that Midi-chlorian are in living cells).

    Now for Dooku, his grow was during a pretty little period (the clone war) so the aging process shouldn't be take into account here, compare to the life of a man the clone war was pretty short (Count Dooku live 83 years and the clone war was during 3 years ). This isn't a clear contradiction to this theory.

    For Sidious some other aspect must be take into account for RotJ being above RotS:

    1. First of all the dissepearing of the jedi and the growth of the sith order (through sith accolytes and so on) increase the disbalance of the force. So the dark-side is stronger in the galaxy so all DS user are more powerfull (during all the empire time, the number of jedi have decrease).
    2. He was draining over Byss for a pretty long period of time
    3. When he died, like count dooku he stay relatively young (keep in the mind that the SW universe is way more technologicaly advance than our so it seems reasonable to agree on the fact that 86 years isn't so old)

    For DE sidious this isn't the same: Sidious have a clone body so clearly his body wasn't old at all. The fact that he became stronger in DE can clearly seen as the proof that the aging process have an impact on force users.

    Granted, having clones of yourself doesn't hurt...

    You have really put a lot of thought into this. Thanks again for sharing. I need to think about it for a bit-digest it.

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