In the darth bane books it is mentioned that force users always have a force shield up when facing another force user in battle, which makes perfect sense since otherwise one could just pull the opponent's lightsaber and automatically win the duel, or just force push him to the wall or something.
In the movies however, we can see numerous times where force push is being used successfully (like darth maul vs obi-wan), which could only happen if one of the combatants is vastly stronger in the force than the opponent and destroys his shield. So is that the case in the movies, or is the force shield non-canon?
I’m pretty sure it was mentioned in TLJ novel? That there are passive Force shields. Far as your TPM example I don’t think it was because Maul was stronger in the Force, but because he pushed Obi back in the blade lock which gave an opportunity for it since he wouldn’t be focusing within that moment.
Tutaminis is still canon as it was used in the movies by yoda so I guess that’s a force shield. If you mean stuff like passive force defenses I think they are kinda canon just never really said by name.
Passive full-on Force shields don't exist in canon. It they existed, then all successful telekinetic attacks that ever happened would imply vast superiority and would be replicable at will. But there are countless examples to the contrary:
It's possible to push/grip superior Force users, if they're caught off guard.
That said, I think Yoda implies it's more difficult to move an inanimate object than a Force-sensitive:
@eredin12: Based on what? When has anyone failed to Force push/grip a superior Force user without the latter gesturing to block? If something isn't shown to exist, then the default assumption is that it doesn't exist.
I think the stronger someone is in the force the harder they are to move, but unless they are actively raising their defense, they can still be pushed around.
Just think about it like this. A huge swole guy is harder to push than a small skinny guy. If he sees you coming the swole guy will almost be impossible to move, but if you catch him off guard you can still push him over.
Also I don't know why no is winning when we see Palpainte visually use a force shield on panel.
Force shields are canon, but they arent passive. Someone strong in the force will be harder to move, but its still possible if you catch them off guard. Same as how I could push a person whose unguarded compaired to someone whose bracing, which would be similar to a force shield.
If they were passive, people like Vader would never get pushed by Kanan/Ezra or Ahsoka.
Passive force barriers are iffy but how I’ve always reconciled them is that a passive force barrier is not a pure representation of force power like a power level but a relatively small amount of force protection that doesn’t require attention . Similar to Force Sense . Jedi always have their senses up but it gets stronger with more concentration and power pushed into it
Naturally differences in the amount of passive power alotted to said task are going to differ from user to user but that ergo Vader’s passive force wall will be stronger than some rando Jedi but that’s not to say it can’t be overcome by said rando pumping a bunch of force power into a push.Passive barriers probably amount to about like 2% of a force users total power but the value of that percentage goes up the more powerful you are
Based on what? When has anyone failed to Force push/grip a superior Force user without the latter gesturing to block? If something isn't shown to exist, then the default assumption is that it doesn't exist.
Did you ever play fallen order? It is impossible to use force on Vader because he is just far above you, not to mention it would contradict logic and lore if you could, why would Vader not just break Palpatiens neck from behind and be done with it? Because he could not
Yes, and that's because Vader visibly blocks you in the game. He wouldn't break Palpatine's neck because he fears Palpatine would anticipate the move, just like he wouldn't try to stab him in the back with his lightsaber (a move for which Palpatine woudn't have any passive shield either).
I think the stronger someone is in the force the harder they are to move, but unless they are actively raising their defense, they can still be pushed around.
Not really, unless you are comperable to them you cannot, now there are many PIS moments, inconsistencies especially in clone wars where Dave Filoni is director, a guy who is Bendis of star wars so that is to be suspected if you could affect somone like that Vader would just break Palpatiens neck and become emperor, but he could not do that because he was not strong enaugh
For the Vader-Palpatine argument, see my other post right above this one.
Again, you are assuming the existence of something that hasn't ever been shown to exist. Not once has that hypothetical passive barrier repelled a Force attack. Not once has it been mentioned. There is literally nothing that points to its existence, and many to the contrary: see Ahsoka pushing Ventress, Kanan and Ezra pushing Vader, Kanan ragdolling the Grand Inquisitor (who is stated to be much more powerful than him at that point), Maul gripping Sidious in the deleted scene (which shows that the creators didn't believe in passive barriers when they made every episode before that one), etc. Not that it needs to be proven that passive barriers don't exist.
If there is no sign at all of something existing, then we should assume it doesn't.
Not really Vader does not block you, you just cannot use force on him because of his force barrier
Vader visibly moves his hand to block your attacks. It's not his passive Force barrier.
That logic is stupid, Palpatine can block saber with force, with speed, but he cannot do anything about this while cuaght of gourd, if he could do this he would
Not sure what you mean. If Vader could catch Palpatine off guard, he could do it with his lightsaber too. He just has to point it to Palpatine's back and ignite it. It's much swifter and safer than attacking him with the Force, but he doesn't do it because Palpatine would see it coming.
It was shown like i said above
Never has a stronger character repelled a Force attack without gesturing to block.
Comperable force users can push each other
Non-comparable Force users can too. Kanan and Ezra pushed Vader. They are not comparable to him.
Yeah that was one PIS, it was made by Dave Filoni, Bendis of star wars, if you do not know who is Bendis that is a guy that makes mid-tiers hurt 616 Thanos who no sells things from high tiers
So when showings don't fit your baseless theory, you call them PIS, instead of reassessing your theory.
That is a oblem you see, feats >statments, Jango Fett was said to be most dengerous man in galaxy, Odin was siad to be omnipotnet, but by feats Kanan did not just push him but stomped him, so yeah that is legit feat, now we can discuss was it PIS or not but he did
So when statements don't fit your baseless theory, you also call them PIS. If Kanan could do that to the Grand Inquisitor without needing to catch him off guard, he would have done it in every fight they had, but he never replicated it.
It does because it was shown to exist if it did not many would just kill each other by breaking their neck
No, they would get blocked or leave themselves vulnerable.
Thing is there is here
Again, every time weaker Force users have tried to push/grip stronger ones (that were not actively blocking), they have succeeded. Ezra & Kanan pushing Vader is a good example.
Not really, unless you are comperable to them you cannot, now there are many PIS moments, inconsistencies especially in clone wars where Dave Filoni is director, a guy who is Bendis of star wars so that is to be suspected if you could affect somone like that Vader would just break Palpatiens neck and become emperor, but he could not do that because he was not strong enaugh
Palpatine can see the future, can sense danger, and would always be careful around Vader.
Using real-life analogy when talking about force is wrong, force is nothing like that
Using a real life analogy is fine. Obviously they aren't exactly the same thing, I'm just using an easy to understand example to get across how I think it kind of works.
Not quite, Vader moving arm like that in no way proves he did that to block force push
You really outdid yourself here. Kudos.
That example is so wrong and uncomparable I really do not understand how you do not get it, Palpatine would eaisly hear him grabbing saber and moving it to him to do it, he would stop him with force even if he was caught off guard, but he cannot stop him from just flicking his fingers and breaking his neck when he is caught off guard
Why wouldn't Vader do the saber move quietly? The thing is that Palpatine can sense things before they happen. Regardless, Force choke is not an insta-kill. We saw Kirak Infil'a break one with a Force push after a little while.
Vader and other strong force users did in FO and thing is just because of their strength
Again, no. Vader moved his hand to block, as did everyone else.
Yeah, mid-tiers can hurt 616 Thanos, he is such weakling, his durabiltiy must be mid tier at best, oh and Spiderman also hurt some high tiers he mist be at least country level or 616 Hulk must be only room level if Peter could hurt him right? DCEU Superman got knocked out by bullet he must be street leveler comperable to Super Soldiers in durability right? Lets just ignore PIS when it does not fit our view, and pretend it does not exist. You do realize how wrong your logic is? By your logic, if Namor hurts Thanos we can just use that to say he gets destroyed by the country-level attacks and if somone calls it PIS then we will scream "you just say that because it does not fit your view, no that cannot be PIS, it clearly proves Thanos is mid tier", you see that is logic you are using right now
None of those examples belong in Star Wars. Until you prove Ezra & Kanan Force pushing Vader is PIS, it's a feat that has to be considered and that proves your theory wrong. As it's the fact that many Force users have to fight others in order to find an opening to ragdoll them (Maul to Obi-Wan, Dooku to Ventress, Kanan to GI) and can't do it from the get-go.
1. It is not about fitting my view or not, no it is just simple fact, feats>statements if we are going o use statements then i can argue that Odin is omnipotent which he was said multiple time to be and say he stomps Molecule Man, something which is just ridiculous reasoning but that is what you are using right now, Kanan not only has far better quantifiable feats than GI but he also just stomped him here, and i believe in clear feat more than in some statements like i siad we can argue is it PIS or not and clone wars has tons of inconsistency but he at this moment was far above him and did stomp him with a force
2. Are you really going to deny the existence of PIS? I tried to explain to you above just how wrong doing that is
Feats only trump statements when they are irreconcilable. But we can easily reconcile the statement that GI > Kanan with the feat of Kanan ragdolling GI, simply by acknowledging that Kanan caught GI off guard.
They would not, how many times did we see force user push each other? Many times, they did not block it so if they could do the same to just kill somone they would, but they could not because of force barrier
If a character doesn't try to use the Force on another, it's because they think it would be blocked or because trying to do it would leave them vulnerable. But when they do try it, sometimes they can catch others off guard.
Mostly we have seen comperable force user doing it which is logical and something i do not denay, the only exception really is Vader example and that is not a good example but PIS and like i siad there are examples of passive force shields in canon
For the nth time, no. Your only "example" is Vader in FO and he did move his hand to block, so it's not a passive shield.
How him doing that does not prove it, we have seen how you need to move your hand to block it and this is not even close to it
You are in denial at this point.
Because he cannot take out his saber and move it so that Palpatine does not hear it like that
Baseless claim. It works in real life and nothing indicates it wouldn't work here.
Who said anything about force choke? I said neck snap, snapping someone's neck, instant death, something very difirnet than choking
That's not a thing.
He did move his hand but he did not block it
So what was he doing with it?
1. That is completely irelvant, its not my fault, if you are so short, minded that you did not hear about Thanos or marvel comics, but that proves why your example is wrong , PIS happends, them pushing him is PIS just like Namor hurting Thanos is, that is the only example of somone that much weaker like that pushing somone that strong to that extent
2. I think that is wrong and i will explain why but if anything that proves my point if they did not have passive shield they could just do it from the get-go, you know to snap each other neck by silently moving their hand behind their beck so that their opponent does not see it and try force shield, but no your example is wrong because they do not need to go in fight to ragdoll somone, they just prefer to fight somone with sabers than use force, even in canon Vader first tried to fight Momin with saber and when he failed he used force, some just prefer sabers than force but there is no evidence that they cannot do it from get-go
You still haven't proved this was an instance of PIS. Vader used the Force as a surprise attack on Momin, that doesn't prove anything. Answer these questions: Why would Maul fight Obi-Wan if he can ragdoll him from the get-go? Why would Dooku fight Ventress if he can ragdoll her from the get-go? Why would Kanan fight GI if he can ragdoll him from the get-go?
Sure if their power is comperable they can push each other and caught each off gourd, but where there is great power difference then no
Provide evidence for this claim.
That is not my only example and is not really my example, that was just meant to show that he did not block it, Vader did move his hand, but did not block it, just moving your hand does not mean you blocked something, that was a passive shield
That did not prevent him from geting ragdolled by rage amped Vader,
He didn't get ragdolled, he just got knocked back, and his defense must have been slightly up considering his body bent the metal behind him and he didn't die, or was even injured at all.
if you watch Last Jedi we see Kylo specifically using and needing saber to kill Snoke, why did he not just snap his neck? Kylo knew he cannot sense anything, he did not even snese him turning saber to him, so why not just flick his fingers and kill him? Because he knew he could not and needed saber for that, for somone like you who likes to talk about writers intnetion so much i think this is prety obvious, could you just imagine Kylo snaping Snokes neck? Somone who crub stomped Rey with ease and toyed with her moment earlier, somone who was portrayed to be so far above them they where fodders to him geting his neck snapped by Kylo or Rey and we know he can be caught off guard and he was, that is really impossible to imagine, it would ruin his character completly, it is clear that they needed trickery, that was their only way to kill him
I don't understand why you are saying this like it's an argument against what I'm saying. I voted for yes, and this is in line with what I said. Snoke is powerful in the force, so he is harder to use the force on.
I understand your point but my point is force does not work like that, if it did entire star wars would turn into billions of plot holes and complete chaos
What plot holes? Like the one you said above? Like I said, that is in line with my example. A large man's neck would be a lot harder to snap than a small woman's neck, even if he is off guard.
Snapping a Force user's neck is not a thing. You can't do that instantly because it's more difficult to TK a Force-sensitive being than a normal stormtrooper, for the reason I pointed out in my first post and @alextheboss has been repeating to you, but it doesn't mean you can't ragdoll a superior Force user, as Kanan did to the Grand Inquisitor.
The rest of your points don't even need addressing.
Of course he knew. He knew Momin's past and that he was reborn.
Your first post says nothing about any of that and Alex says taht he does believe passive shields exist, that using force on powerful force users is harder, which debunks any notion about there not being passive shield, and yes, of course, it is a thing, their bones are normal, obviously, their durabiltiy is higher but nowhere near high enough to sugest TK from another force user cannot break their neck, only reason it is more difficult is passive force shield, but somone like Palpatine can easily snap neck of Maul if he wanted to, but yeah without passive shield there is simply no reason why you could not easily do that
Yes, my first post explains how Yoda implies something alive in the Force is more difficult to TK. Alex is not saying that passive shields exist (in the sense that they would prevent a Force user from being pushed or gripped). He's saying (unless he corrects me) that it's more difficult to TK a powerful Force user, but an inferior one can still do it if the superior doesn't actively block.
Your Kanan example is wrong, you just cannot ragdoll superior force user, it makes no snese, even Alex is against that, he thinks simply pushing somone is not ragdolling, and i prety much agree, but freezing somone pinning them aginst wall like fodder without them being able to do anything is stomping somone with force, and does prove superiority, great one, only somone who really is in denial would say what Vader did to Cal does not prove he is far above him for example, same is here, at that moment Kanan was just much stronger, now question is why like i siad fact that he needed to save life of Erza means that there is great chance he was amped which is why that example is wrong one
Yes, you can ragdoll a superior Force user if you catch him off-guard, as demonstrated by Kanan ragdolling someone who is said to be far more powerful than him. And you still haven't provided a single piece of evidence showing that it's impossible to do.
Well then concession accepted
No, your interpretation on all those instances is so far-fetched that I'm certain no one could believe it.
He did know his past but he believed that in his current state he cannot use force
His current state was his original state, and Momin told Vader that it was.
1. Even non-force sensitives are alive in force which is why your first post says nothing about it like i mentioned above, he is not talking about force users, but about this alive/ sentinet objects in force,
They are alive in the Force, but not to the same degree.
That does not show weaker users can ragdoll stronger, Kanan did stomp him at that moment and was far strogner than him, you cannot use that to say that weaker ones can do same to stronger, no, in that moment we have stronger force user stomping weaker one, freezing him, pinning him against celling and holding him for good amount of time without him being able to do anything to break free, that is stomping, that is not just pushing somone, no that is stomping, to sugest that this does not show superiority is to be in denial
You haven't proved that a weaker being can't do that to a stronger one. In other words, you haven't proved that it's a sign of immense superiority. And we have a statement saying GI >> Kanan.
Agian like i said statement means nothing when contradicted by feats, you have that problem like some star wars fans you are being to short-minded and ignoring clear feat in favor of one statement which is completly wrong logic like i explained above, and that statment says he was more powerful not that he is in that moment in which they fought, not only are feats more important but there is another likely option which you constantly ignore because it debunks your theory, Kanan was amped at that moment, he needed to save life of Erza, which respect both clear feat of him stomping him and that statment as well
The statement would be contradicted by the feat if there was some proof that a weaker being can't do that to a stronger one that is not actively blocking. But you have provided no such proof.
Prety arrogant thing to say given how many wrong things you said, or clear evidence you ignored, but there is nothing far fetched about them, if what you said was ture we would have many instant TK neck snaps, that is fact if what you said is true Vader and Kylo would easily kill Emperor and Snoke, that is fact, there is nothing far fetched about many star wars force users preferring to sue saber than force when they fight another force user, that is just fact, there is nothing far fetched about fact that Vaders arm movment is nothing even similar to force barrier
No, there wouldn't be instant TK neck snaps, because it's difficult to do that to characters who are particularly "alive in the Force". Ventress choked both Obi-Wan and Anakin, but she couldn't snap their necks. Yes, it is far-fetched to think that Maul would let his brother get his arm chopped just because he didn't want to ragdoll Obi-Wan again after doing it just seconds before. But anyone can see it, so I will not argue it further.
@eredin12: This is my last response to you and I will only address two points, the others I think sensible people will not buy.
Not quite, Momin was a mask, a mask that possessed body and crushing mask killed him, that was not his original state, he was human, and he said that he cannot use force in that state, and Vader believed him
That's before he was reborn and before he fought Vader.
Agian i am still not sure that you understand what you are saying, ragdolling is stomping somone with force, what you are saying is prove to me that somone weaker cannot stomp somone strogner, which is self-contradictory, it is basic logic, there is no need to prove that, agian that statment was true at that moment but does not say anything about moment when they fought and Kanan was amped
You haven't provided any proof that at that moment Kanan was far more powerful than usual. In a circular argument, you will likely say that it's basic logic, but it really isn't.
@redshift_bacon: pis is never used as a last resort. It’s the go to whenever writers want to tell a story involving characters with powers in any medium. For example superman and the flash getting hit by characters with reaction times that are literally millions of times slower than them, spiderman’s spider sense that operates and sometimes doesn’t. Here is some things directly related to star wars...killing a main dark side force character somehow turns a jedi to the dark side despite the jedi murdering countless people before and no one even freaking sensing palpatine was a sith lord despite spending countless hours with him. Also, palpatine’s plan was dumb from the start. He already was the leader of the sith and jedi. He would have been better off if he had done nothing. He was already the most powerful person in the galaxy.
@christianrapper: I mean PIS is only used by fans when other options are exhausted. Superman lets himself get hit, spider sense can be overcome, and Anakin was falling to the Dark side ever since before the Clone Wars started. Also, Palpatine was using a force technique+The dark-side presence already on Coruscant to hide himself from the Jedi, and his plan was to Eliminate the Jedi, which he did. He didnt become Supreme Chancellor until the Republic was losing the War, that was the point.
@redshift_bacon: PIS isn’t used by fans at all. It’s used by writers so they can tell a story. Palpatine wasn’t using anything. They never mentioned it in the movies. His plan was still stupid since he already controlled everything anyway. Superman allows himself to get hit because it would be pretty boring if he just used his super speed and beat everyone in a nanosecond. It’s the same thing for spiderman. Peter’s spider sense and reflexes allows him to see the world in slow motion and he can legit dodge bullets AFTER they have been fired. He isn’t like batman or nifhtwing who aim dodge. Writers choose to ignore a character’s powers to tell a story. I hate PIS but the only solution is to have characters like Superman and such constantly fight stronger and stronger characters. It would be like dragonball z.
As far as I’m concerned it’s Non canon, you don’t see it in the movies or tv shows. I think force push isnt an example of a shield and neither is stopping objects from hitting you like Yoda did in the Attack of the Clones. a shield to me is a physical barrier that prevents objects passing through. I’ve seen nothing like this.
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