Why the final duel in The Force Awakens makes sense

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#1 Edited by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's take a look at Luke Skywalker:

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Luke leaves with Obi-Wan, Han, Chewie, R2-D2 and C-3PO for Alderaan. He gets like half an hour of lightsaber training consisting of deflecting blaster bolts.

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Then they're captured by the Death Star and Obi-Wan dies. Then Luke blows up the Death Star and three years pass before Empire where Luke is busy doing Rebel stuff.

Cut to Empire.

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Luke has gotten a little bit better with the Force (despite having no one to train him) since he can call his lightsaber to him. He's still really clumsy with a lightsaber, only using it to cut things rather than having any finesse. He goes and meets Yoda.

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Yoda trains him on using the Force, teaching him to levitate objects and such, but notice how there is absolutely no training with lightsabers. In fact, when he enters the cave, Yoda specifically tells him to leave his weapons behind.

Yoda didn't give a crap about lightsabers. He was trying to teach Luke something greater. He was teaching about the Force being more important than physical strength. "Wars make not one great."

Then Luke leaves, gets the crap beaten out of him by Vader, and a year passes. During this time, Luke constructs his own lightsaber, but does not go back to Yoda for training, nor does he have anyone to train with.

Cue Jedi.

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Luke rescues Han, and goes back to Yoda to complete his training. Sadly, he's too late, and Yoda dies from old age. Before he dies, Yoda tells Luke that he doesn't need more training, andconfronting Vader will make him a Jedi.

Apparently Luke will become a Jedi due to the will of the Force and when it deems himworthy, not due to how many hours of training he put in.

Luke then goes and beats Vader by tapping into the dark side, but ultimately rejects it.

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So to summarize: The most lightsaber training Luke had throughout the original trilogy was a quick half hour session deflecting blaster bolts.

Yet he still managed to defeat the Dark Lord of the Sith, who had years of experience.

Why?

Because he was strong in the Force!

His usage of the Force to guide his actions was ultimately what allowed him to triumph over Vader, not lightsaber training or fancy form usage.

So why on earth is everyone throwing a big stink over Rey doing the exact same thing?

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We even explicitly see her stop, calm her mind, and open herself up to the Force!

Apparently this is enough to take out Vader, but not Kylo Ren, who was:

  • extremely conflicted throughout the film, even more so after killing his father
  • badly wounded from Chewbacca's bowcaster
  • extremely out of practice in lightsaber fighting given he was the only one carrying one for quite a while

The whole point of the Force is that it has a will, and that tapping into it is what gives a Jedi their power, not how many level-ups they've gotten or how good they are with a lightsaber.

So why is this a problem?

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#2 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (4701 posts) - - Show Bio

Not a problem for me. I used to practice kendo (Japanese swords), and I studied medieval weapons so I know a thing or two about the use of these tools. Rey had a style that showed natural talent for fighting, as well as her inexperience wielding a lightsaber so it makes sense to me:

we had seen that she could fight off attackers and defend herself, and we also see that she adapts to her environment very well. Her whole style consists of evasion, and retreat, when she forced Kylo back, and then we even see her probe for a weak point by baiting him into attacking when she thrusts the lightsaber forward towards him to draw him into attacking - she had no fancy moves with the lightsaber, with most of her attacks consisting of thrusting, and slashing counterattacks. The Force was obviously with her, but I think she knew how to read Kylo Ren from the knowledge of his motivations she gained in the interrogation scene, and to a certain extent, she knew that he was a) hurt, and b) easily goaded into attacking, so all she had to do was lead him to make mistakes, and then punish him severely once he stepped into her trap.

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#3 Posted by CitizenSentry (12121 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe you should add something called spoiler blocks over everything that is a spoiler, and also edit the OP since people may not have seen the movie.

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#4 Posted by kgb725 (18773 posts) - - Show Bio

Edit the first part about Kylo.... but yes he was obviously weakened and would've killed them both had he fought at full health and killed off the story

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#5 Posted by dan12456 (3006 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah I thought that too. Anyone who had an issue with Rey's fight should be WAY more bothered with Luke's.

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#6 Edited by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@kgb725: @citizensentry: Done. Sorry guys, kind of just assumed everyone that was going to see it had done so already

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#7 Edited by EyeDCyou (7512 posts) - - Show Bio

The reason it makes sense is because:

1. Kylo was shot in the stomach by Chewie's bowcaster

2. Rey is obviously more naturally powerful with the force

3. Control over your emotions is very important when using a light saber and the force. Kylo is about the farthest thing from emotionally stable.

Oh, and hi.

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#8 Posted by LpnQ (3954 posts) - - Show Bio

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Not a problem for me. I used to practice kendo (Japanese swords), and I studied medieval weapons so I know a thing or two about the use of these tools.

this you?

lol jk just good humor :)

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#9 Posted by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

The reason that this thread exists is because the scene doesn't work, although you can take moments from the film and say because of these doesn't always work.

From a storytelling point of view the big bad was beaten by the protagonist suddenly powering up, the big bad was established as powerful with TK and deflecting laser bolts, the protagonist was not. You can say but what about these things but the film failed to make them feel relevant and as I said that's why threads like these will be common.

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#10 Posted by THEOCITYLEGEND (1582 posts) - - Show Bio

@kgb725 said:

Edit the first part about Kylo.... but yes he was obviously weakened and would've killed them both had he fought at full health and killed off the story

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#11 Edited by Asgaard (4378 posts) - - Show Bio

If that was the case you wouldn't need to make this thread!

This big franchises always have the capacity to make some people prisoners of the moment, and Rey was likable but also a total Mary Sue, (and that is OK too), but should be acknowledged, personally i think that any storytelling works better and becomes more rich with characters that have a lot to overcome!

Online
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#12 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (4701 posts) - - Show Bio

@lpnq said:
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@phoenixofthetides said:

Not a problem for me. I used to practice kendo (Japanese swords), and I studied medieval weapons so I know a thing or two about the use of these tools.

this you?

lol jk just good humor :)

Bwahahaha!

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#13 Posted by those_eyes (17291 posts) - - Show Bio

I wondered why kylo didnt just force push her into a tree like he did fin? He somehow forgot he had tk force powers in the middle of the fight and decided to use his lightsaber only to try to beat her. Thats the main problem i had.

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#14 Edited by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56: because trained Jedi/Sith got rekt by a stormtrooper and scavenger.

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#15 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor: Because an semi-trained Sith who is severely out of practice and dealing with other stuff at the moment got beat by a prodigy who was getting help from a supernatural force*

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#16 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56: Wow you actually knows the spoilers for another Episode? Finn os Force sensitive too?

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#17 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor: The prodigy being Rey. Pretty obvious she's strong in the Force, just like Luke was

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#18 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

I wondered why kylo didnt just force push her into a tree like he did fin? He somehow forgot he had tk force powers in the middle of the fight and decided to use his lightsaber only to try to beat her. Thats the main problem i had.

IIRC, he did push her into the tree, which is why Finn picked up the saber and got destroyed. She just woke up during the fight.

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#19 Posted by those_eyes (17291 posts) - - Show Bio

@those_eyes said:

I wondered why kylo didnt just force push her into a tree like he did fin? He somehow forgot he had tk force powers in the middle of the fight and decided to use his lightsaber only to try to beat her. Thats the main problem i had.

IIRC, he did push her into the tree, which is why Finn picked up the saber and got destroyed. She just woke up during the fight.

Well why did he not do it again during the fight with her when she picked up the lightsaber? He got beat mainly because he decided not to use it again during the light saber duel.

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#21 Edited by MakkyD (6989 posts) - - Show Bio

It's hinted that she's done Jedi training when she was younger and Kylo's interrogation seemed to open up (presumably) blocked memories of it. Also the main purpose of the scene where she fends off the scavengers with her staff is to show she's skilled with melee weapons even without the force.

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#22 Posted by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio

How can anyone seriously defend that last battle, is beyond me.

If lightsaber training was so useless, then why in Attack Of The Clones do we see Yoda training younglings with them!? If lightsaber training was so useless, then why did the Jedi's created so many styles of lightsaber usage!?

Luke failed in his first fight with Vader, because he was simply mentally unprepared. Lightsaber duel is defined by the users knowledge and most of all the ability to stay connected to the Force while fighting.

Luke in Empire Strikes Back, was clouded by his desire to save his friends and also the chance of defeating the man that betrayed his father. Something made quite clear for anyone that bothered to read the books of the movies and not just watch the movies.

And Luke evolution in Return Of The Jedi, was mainly due to the fact that he was more centered more connected to the Force. Another thing made quite clear in the book. And when Luke fought Vader, unlike in the movie that seemed that Luke had for the most part the upper hand, in the book we see that Vader at first was not giving it all he had. His goal was to turn Luke to the dark side, not kill him. Not at first. It was only when he saw Luke was much stronger than he had anticipated, and that he could lose to Luke that Vader decided to take things seriously. And still Vader lost.

But still if he wanted, he could've used Luke moment of defiance toward the Emperor to get him off guard, but he did nothing.

So Luke had training. Even if not proper training, he had something.

Rey had what!? Nothing that's what she had. Even her ability to mind trick the Stormtrooper was already stretching it too far. Even with Ren injured, Rey should've lost. Period!

She didn't lost because, then there wouldn't be a reason to make anymore movies. That's why she won. Plot convenience.

If Force connection alone was all that it took to become a strong Jedi or Sith, then Luke wouldn't have needed any training whatsoever. No need for Obi-Wan to do those training sessions with Luke, no reason for Obi-Wan to send him to Yoda. He would've gotten there on his own.

Being a Jedi and Sith requires knowledge and the training of said knowledge in order to master it. Knowledge doesn't come from thin air.

So this so called fight was for the most part an insult to everything Star Wars related.

That's one of the many things the EU did much better. The EU showed Luke's journey to recover all the lost knowledge he could, and then the training he had to take to master it. Luke evolved through training like any other Jedi or Sith. And that's how it should be.

Not simply close one's eyes, focus on the Force, while the villain lets you do it, and then the villain somehow loses.

Instead of defending that lame excuse for a SW fight, people should be tearing it apart.

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#23 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

How can anyone seriously defend that last battle, is beyond me.

If lightsaber training was so useless, then why in Attack Of The Clones do we see Yoda training younglings with them!? If lightsaber training was so useless, then why did the Jedi's created so many styles of lightsaber usage!?

Luke failed in his first fight with Vader, because he was simply mentally unprepared. Lightsaber duel is defined by the users knowledge and most of all the ability to stay connected to the Force while fighting.

Luke in Empire Strikes Back, was clouded by his desire to save his friends and also the chance of defeating the man that betrayed his father. Something made quite clear for anyone that bothered to read the books of the movies and not just watch the movies.

And Luke evolution in Return Of The Jedi, was mainly due to the fact that he was more centered more connected to the Force. Another thing made quite clear in the book. And when Luke fought Vader, unlike in the movie that seemed that Luke had for the most part the upper hand, in the book we see that Vader at first was not giving it all he had. His goal was to turn Luke to the dark side, not kill him. Not at first. It was only when he saw Luke was much stronger than he had anticipated, and that he could lose to Luke that Vader decided to take things seriously. And still Vader lost.

But still if he wanted, he could've used Luke moment of defiance toward the Emperor to get him off guard, but he did nothing.

So Luke had training. Even if not proper training, he had something.

Rey had what!? Nothing that's what she had. Even her ability to mind trick the Stormtrooper was already stretching it too far. Even with Ren injured, Rey should've lost. Period!

She didn't lost because, then there wouldn't be a reason to make anymore movies. That's why she won. Plot convenience.

If Force connection alone was all that it took to become a strong Jedi or Sith, then Luke wouldn't have needed any training whatsoever. No need for Obi-Wan to do those training sessions with Luke, no reason for Obi-Wan to send him to Yoda. He would've gotten there on his own.

Being a Jedi and Sith requires knowledge and the training of said knowledge in order to master it. Knowledge doesn't come from thin air.

So this so called fight was for the most part an insult to everything Star Wars related.

That's one of the many things the EU did much better. The EU showed Luke's journey to recover all the lost knowledge he could, and then the training he had to take to master it. Luke evolved through training like any other Jedi or Sith. And that's how it should be.

Not simply close one's eyes, focus on the Force, while the villain lets you do it, and then the villain somehow loses.

Instead of defending that lame excuse for a SW fight, people should be tearing it apart.

Except that I can't go to someone who watched the movie and point them toward a book for them to understand something. That's flat out ridiculous and should never be necessary for a film series. The movies are a separate entity, and take precedence over the novels. And the entire EU is non-canon now. Like it or not, those things simply don't apply here.

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#24 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56 said:
@those_eyes said:

I wondered why kylo didnt just force push her into a tree like he did fin? He somehow forgot he had tk force powers in the middle of the fight and decided to use his lightsaber only to try to beat her. Thats the main problem i had.

IIRC, he did push her into the tree, which is why Finn picked up the saber and got destroyed. She just woke up during the fight.

Well why did he not do it again during the fight with her when she picked up the lightsaber? He got beat mainly because he decided not to use it again during the light saber duel.

Good point. Best defense I can offer is that Ren was never established as much of a thinker. Maybe he wanted the satisfaction of hacking her to death? XD

Or it could just be movie logic. My main point was that this logic isn't different from the original trilogy's. Vader could've force choked Luke to just stop him cold during their duel. At some point, it's all for the sake of plot

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#25 Posted by kiba (3731 posts) - - Show Bio

Just because we didn't see Yoda training Luke with a lightsaber doesn't mean he didn't. I think the novelization even states he did but regardless I think we can just assume Yoda was teaching Luke everything that he knew but given the restrictions in technology at the time we couldn't get a good fight scene between Luke and Yoda. As far as Rey winning against Ren it kinda works as he was wounded but falls apart when we remember he could have force pushed her off a cliff or something. The fight could have worked much better with very little tinkering but they got lazy.

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#26 Posted by Stefano (2525 posts) - - Show Bio

@eyedcyou said:

The reason it makes sense is because:

1. Kylo was shot in the stomach by Chewie's bowcaster

2. Rey is obviously more naturally powerful with the force

3. Control over your emotions is very important when using a light saber and the force. Kylo is about the farthest thing from emotionally stable.

Oh, and hi.

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#27 Posted by Uncanny_Doom (845 posts) - - Show Bio

It's also important to note that Kylo was toying with Finn and paid for it by being struck, and Rey was backpedaling the whole time. People act like Rey grabbed the saber, started doing backflips, and made Ren look like shit.

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#28 Posted by silkyballfro94 (8674 posts) - - Show Bio

That final battle was terrible and kinda ruined the movie for me. It just didn't make sense. At no point, was it hinted that Rey was at all skilled in the force or even had any sense of the force in her regular everyday life on Jakku. It would've been cool if there was some scenes that did this, but there wasn't. All we got prior to the Kylo and Rey interrogation scene was the lightsaber vision in the cantina or whatever. But that was a simple vision. And then all of a sudden, Rey is a badass force user. Just lol. And then her first time picking up and turning a lightsaber on, she defeats Kylo. A dude who is very skilled. Yes he was badly injured, but it still didn't make sense. The whole battle just seemed like PIS in order to make Rey seem like the hero.

The Luke comparison doesn't work at all either.

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#29 Posted by Doctor_Vader (219 posts) - - Show Bio

Completely agree. People just love to nitpick all and everything that gets crittically acllaimed, that's all.

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#30 Posted by redwingx (1359 posts) - - Show Bio

The final battle was dumb. Rey should not have been able to touch Kylo whatsoever. A great villain taken down by someone who isn't even a newbie, she literally discovered her force power at the same day.

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#31 Posted by comic_bruh777 (1695 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with this. But, it's also safe to assume that Luke was practicing with the force on his own for the years that were in between the movie. Hell what's to say it is so far fetched as to say obi wan in ghost form wasn't there along the way? Vader is always saying obi wan has taught you well

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#33 Edited by darthdeadpool (1278 posts) - - Show Bio

Finn must be really strong with the force. It took him less that a minute to use a lightsaber.

And the best part, he already showed to be able to just freeze her in place but it doesn't matter. GIRL POWER. But it's not that big of deal. Any intellectually honest person would admit it was plot induced bullshit

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#34 Posted by Jonez_ (11445 posts) - - Show Bio

It's safe to assume that Luke had practice between the films. But other than that, OP is right.

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#35 Edited by Jonez_ (11445 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact that he got shot with a freaking Bowcaster is waaay too overlooked.

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#36 Posted by Spidey_Jackson (6359 posts) - - Show Bio

The final fight was buns.

Luke beating Vader was entertaining regardless of how much sense it made.

Beata

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#37 Posted by SilverPool (4562 posts) - - Show Bio

I think you're just looking for a reason to like this fight because it's Star Wars. It's fine if you like it for that reason, but don't argue its nonexistent merits. I liked the Bane fights in Dark Knight Rises, but I'm not going to argue that they had good choreography because they didn't. Just like this fight didn't make any sense.

It's not just that Rey took on Kylo without experience with a lightsaber and PIS force abilities, but Finn actually stood a chance. Can anyone explain that? It makes no sense that Finn would be able to take him. This guy who was trained by Luke can't beat an untrained scavenger and can barely beat a stormtrooper? Wtf.

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#38 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@silverpool: But Finn didn't have a chance. The moment he scratched Ren, he got annihilated pretty quickly

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#39 Posted by RaunJisto (480 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get how people didn't like that fight honestly. I thought it was great and there's obviously more to Rey's use of the force that hasn't been revealed yet. Kylo was also clearly not in the right state of mind and was all over the place and he was also shot by the bow caster and Finn did damage too. Rey was also familiar using weapons and fighting in general so I really don't see the problems. It's not like she was doing crazy force acrobatics or ripping trees from the ground.

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#40 Edited by Omanlew (89 posts) - - Show Bio

Kylo wanted Rey to join him so it was obvious his intent wasn't trying to kill her. Being able to wield a light-saber and knowledge of the force are obviously two different things. Mace Windu manages to beat Sidious in a light-saber duel yet Yoda is more or less equal to Dooku and Sidious when they duel but displays far more knowledge of the force. Also, can't it just be possible that Rey could potentially be the strongest force-sensitive user we'll ever see? Leia had no training but she was able to use the force in hearing Luke's cry for help at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. IMO the new movie was fine, we've yet to see the other 2 so we don't exactly know all the details of how or why things happened the way they did.

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#41 Edited by acer51 (2695 posts) - - Show Bio

Years of knowing about and training with the force as well as intense training with Master Jedi Yoda and then LOSING against Darth Vader vs Three days with Harrison Ford and then beating Kylo Ren with no training whatsoever.

Don't take a dump on the original trilogy to justify this trash.

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#42 Posted by linsanel_Doctor (8630 posts) - - Show Bio

My favorite part was when Rey used jedi mind trick on that stormtrooper.

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#43 Posted by redleader1 (845 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel that it makes sense cause Rey has been shown to be great with melee combat while ren relies on pure strength and power. Rey's skill is why Ren lost. He is all about pure strength which would leave him at a disadvantage against a person who is not trained in the force but it very skilled with melee combat. That and as everyone has mentioned Ren was shot already and was over emotional.

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