Rey is a Mary Sue and a bad character

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#1 Posted by BulletTimer (1090 posts) - - Show Bio

Name one character trait of hers that isn't "good at everything". Seriously, try.

She mastered flight, Jedi Force skills, lightsaber forms, how to operate and repair antique ships, and beat trained Jedi-types at lightsaber and Force combat by the time she was 5 and dumped on jakkoff.

Is she an anime character?

She doesn't have a character arc, has no presence in the movie, is completely flat yet is also perfect in every way. Oh, and not to mention that everyone loves her, and the Resistance trusts her with a sensitive mission and details within 5 minutes of meeting her.

I hope we see less of her and more of Kylo or Finn

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#2 Posted by SpideyIvyDaredevilFan26 (7222 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought this was common knowledge.

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#3 Posted by Prospero_Locke (1081 posts) - - Show Bio

im going to shoot in the dark here and assume you've heard the name Max Landis.......

but really, I agree with you (and him)

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#4 Edited by jayc1324 (26422 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Rey is a good character but not great. She was very fun and entertaining to watch which is what matters the most. I do agree that she was a bit too good though. Ren doesn't even feel relevant anymore. He really needs a power boost.

Repairing ships and lightsaber combat are the only two things she should be good at since she made a living off of taking apart ships and had to defend herself with a staff a lot.

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#5 Posted by HercuThor (270 posts) - - Show Bio

This movie was so overrated it's actually funny. It was more or less a scene for scene remake of A New Hope. Rey and Finn both were not believable characters the villian was a tantrum throwing child and if I was reminded one more time that that one dude was the "best pilot" I was gonna pimp smack the kid sitting in front of me

Also the First Orders super weapon.....really...a bigger, dumber, less efficient Death Star....again....bravo you Saturday morning cartoon villains

All in all it wasn't a terrible movie but to think it's anything other than mediocre or "entertaining" is lying to yourself

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#6 Posted by Spambot (9408 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree in that to me the essence of a Mary Sue is a character is that it forces suspension of disbelief to the point that you are pretty much asking your audience to become idiots in order to believe what they are watching. Rey felt like a character out of a book written for 13 yr olds, not an audience that was probably equal amounts teens and people who grew up watching the ot or prequels. It at least made sense that Luke was a pretty good pilot given he had actual experience flying and shooting swamprats or w/e it it was he mentioned doing leading up to the death star assault. With Rey we are given no explanation whatsoever other than the plot requires her to do these things.

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#7 Edited by deactivated-5c901e667a76c (36557 posts) - - Show Bio

She mastered flight

According to Before the Awakening, she had a flight simulator in her AT-AT house.

lightsaber forms

For at least half her fight with Kylo (up until she "calls upon the Force"), it looked to me like she barely knew what she was doing.

how to operate and repair antique ships

She'd been doing that for years.

not to mention that everyone loves her

You must have forgotten her first meeting with Finn. Or for that matter, Han.

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#8 Posted by McGuffin (42 posts) - - Show Bio

I know a few people like her in real life--someone who is just really good at nearly everything she tries.

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#9 Posted by Spambot (9408 posts) - - Show Bio

@xwraith: How about when she escapes her shackles by suddenly out of the blue knowing that she might have the power to get people to do what she wants them to and succeeds in getting the stormtrooper to release her and give her his weapon? This is literally only a few hours after she even finds out what the force is.

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#10 Posted by Incursion (1510 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont get where all the complaints about Rey are coming from, I mean good grief their are still 2 movies left in this new saga for crying out loud, its not supposed to answer all the questions about all the characters. Rey imo was a great character, there is something mysterious about her history that is yet unexplained

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#11 Posted by deactivated-57af58bda2d61 (5409 posts) - - Show Bio

Spaghetti

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#12 Posted by Pharoh_Atem (44280 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by deactivated-57af58bda2d61 (5409 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by BulletTimer (1090 posts) - - Show Bio

@xwraith said:

She mastered flight

According to Before the Awakening, she had a flight simulator in her AT-AT house.

lightsaber forms

For at least half her fight with Kylo (up until she "calls upon the Force"), it looked to me like she barely knew what she was doing.

how to operate and repair antique ships

She'd been doing that for years.

not to mention that everyone loves her

You must have forgotten her first meeting with Finn. Or for that matter, Han.

Having her be an expert on a few things is fine; but after a while, it doesn't matter what reasons you give for it, having a character be perfect at absolutely everything removes tension, interest in the character and also stunts development.

Also, you shouldn't need a prequel novel to flesh out a movie character.

For at least half her fight with Kylo (up until she "calls upon the Force"), it looked to me like she barely knew what she was doing.

Right, but then she turns the fight around with ease and disarms him. Up to a point Kylo was going easy on her, I'll give you that. But the minute she started to get the upper hand he should've whooped her.

She'd been doing that for years.

All we've seen her do is scavenge parts off ships and random vehicles. How that translates to outpiloting a pair of TIE fighters and beating some videogame-style obstacle course in the exhaust pipe of a Star Destroyer in a ship whose controls are totally new to her, I do not know. And knowing the Falcon better than Han? Come on.

You must have forgotten her first meeting with Finn. Or for that matter, Han.

Her first meeting with Finn is her hitting him in the face and screaming at him then two seconds later he is holding her hand and running to protection with her. His desire to impress and charm her is basically a running joke in the movie. Han knows her for ten seconds before letting her copilot the Falcon instead of Chewie.

@spambot said:

@xwraith: How about when she escapes her shackles by suddenly out of the blue knowing that she might have the power to get people to do what she wants them to and succeeds in getting the stormtrooper to release her and give her his weapon? This is literally only a few hours after she even finds out what the force is.

Also what this guy says. Fine, she's "gifted". But not only resisting the telepathy of a trained Force user, but turning it right back and reading his own mind? Bull.

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#15 Posted by Pharoh_Atem (44280 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by deactivated-57af58bda2d61 (5409 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Edited by deactivated-5c901e667a76c (36557 posts) - - Show Bio

@spambot: Are you sure it was only hours? I assumed it was a matter of days.

@bullettimer said:

Also, you shouldn't need a prequel novel to flesh out a movie character.

There are a lot of things that the movie doesn't explain clearly (e.g. the relationship between the Resistance and the Republic), but the tie-in books do. Part of me thinks Disney intentionally did that.

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#18 Edited by Spambot (9408 posts) - - Show Bio

@xwraith: I don't think it had been that long. Even so, she barely learned anything about the force at all. She just had little person in the bar try to instruct her despite not actually being force sensitive then had a vision in the basement. That was literally all of her training up until she was captured. She was like a step below where Luke was at when they went into the Deathstar. At least he had gotten a few hours to chat with an actual jedi master and some actual training with a lightsaber.

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#19 Posted by HighAccuser (9696 posts) - - Show Bio

She really is, and when you state it, people argue otherwise attacking you as a hater or being chivalrous for Daisy Ridley. I mean, I get that some people are good with the force, unstable, or potentially powerful even without training or focus or refinement from Jedi/Sith and various degrees of force-users. But everything she did for 99% of the film had better not be explained as some luck of the draw coincidence of tapping into the force, when you consider age and the fact of surviving on a harsh planet with no parents. Only thing I'd buy is some hand to hand training, since a young girl on a harsh and probably no jurisdiction planet, would be at risk from other factors.

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#20 Posted by Kundelar (524 posts) - - Show Bio

Rey has a lot of emotional issues that she struggles with and isn't good at "everything", but she is good at Star Warsy things like flying ships and fighting. She is NOT skilled at making money, as she was living in a ruined AT AT and barely making enough to survive at the start of the movie. She struggled with fear constantly and even refused to take Luke's lightsaber after her vision she had while touching it. This shows she has a pretty significant self-confidence problem, but she overcame that when she had to fight Kylo Ren. I think Rey is the best character in TFA, and I think you are digging deep for reasons to dislike a perfectly good character.

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#21 Posted by Spambot (9408 posts) - - Show Bio

@bannyhaha: Just a few points regarding what you said. a. She chose to be stuck on Jocku or w/e it was called because she was expecting someone to come back for her and there is no money to be made on that planet. b. She doesn't struggle that much with fear in tfa. We see her fight the one guy in order to free BB-8 right away without hesitation and fights all sorts of other people without showing any fear. The only time we see fear kind of come into play is when she runs away from the saber and tries to hide from Kylo but that was also immediately after she has a crazy vision and no one is going to go out of their way to fight a trained force user who is wielding a lightsaber. She would have been stupid to do so. I feel like you are greatly exaggerating the issues you see her as having in the movie due to liking her character(which is fine if you do) just to make her seem less Mary Sueish. Its not like she was a terrible character, its just that they are trying too hard to make everyone like her via bad writing. She will prob be teaching gm Luke about the force in ep 8.

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#22 Posted by silkyballfro94 (8674 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed. It seems like she didn't have any flaws left by the end of the movie. At least Anakin and Luke had theirs and each film left room for character development.

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#23 Posted by Tazirai (320 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys would not be saying any of the tripe youre saying if her name was Ray, and she had a male appendage.

You also don't seem to know what a Mary Sue is.

Its amazing that people that have seen the movie, and simply did not pay attention to the words said in the film.

If Tom Cruise can hang outside a moving transport plane, and have his arms remain attached, with no force powers, why is Rey a Mary Sue? Oh Yeah she has a vagina. Obviously women cannot do the things a male can do even if she has force powers. Because that would make her a Mary Sue, and a Bad character. The circular reasoning is astounding.

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#24 Edited by silent_bomber (4932 posts) - - Show Bio

@tazirai said:

You guys would not be saying any of the tripe you're saying if her name was Ray, and she had a male appendage.

You know that a considerable amount of people on here call Batman a Mary Sue right?

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#25 Edited by acer51 (2695 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing to like about Rey is the uniquely and amazingly beautiful actress who portrays her, there are truly few women who compare.

This is the strong shield that keeps people from seeing how two dimensional her character is.

@tazirai Tom Cruise is a crazy person who worships aliens and while it is impressive he did that stunt there's no way he could become an expert marksman in 10 second and beat a supposedly powerful Sith or "Knight of Ren" after three days chilling with Harrison Ford.

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#26 Edited by Overmonitor (1515 posts) - - Show Bio

People who are like that exist.

Sometimes people have just known how to do something very well without having done it before. It's because they have a solid and varied base of skills and knowledge and they are good at critical thinking, empathy, and problem solving.

For instance, say you can destroy most people in CoD, even professionals. A new game comes out like Destiny, you will probably be able to murder most people on your first try (not everyone obviously, but well over 80% of the general population) due to your learning experience with prior games and your reflexes and hand-eye coordination being fine-tuned over the years to make you a better player than most people. Most people worldwide haven't played an FPS extensively at all.

Tons if examples like that. Computer programmers learn new software easily. Professional athletes are generally very good at most sports. Skilled shooters can do well with a new gun.

I see most of what she did as having a basis in her background. She was very flat though. Boring at best.

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#27 Posted by Spambot (9408 posts) - - Show Bio

@overmonitor: What you said would make more sense if she were limited just to fixing starships and sabotaging planet destroying weapons which is not the case with Rey. Not only is she expert with pretty much anything relating to technology, but she is also an expert pilot despite seemingly having lived almost her entire life on this backwater planet, she out dueled a dark jedi/sith the first time after picking up a lightsaber and she mastered other force related powers literally within a few hours of finding out the force existed and mostly on a whim. Altogether, its just overboard and makes her character seem like something a 14 yr old boy or girl wrote up.

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#28 Edited by silent_bomber (4932 posts) - - Show Bio

@spambot: She also understood Droid and Wookie fluently. lol

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#29 Posted by silkyballfro94 (8674 posts) - - Show Bio

@tazirai: Way to use the vagina card here. Maybe you should read people's responses and you'd see their reasons for their dislike of her. There have been plenty of female heros in movies who didn't have a penis that people liked and loved. For example, Sigourney Weaver in Alien and Trinity in the Matrix Trilogy or Scarlett Johansson in Lucy most recently.

It's amazing that everyone here is stating their reasons for their support or dislike of this character, yet you're the one who brings nonsense into the thread.

And the Tom Cruise comparison is absolutely ridiculous. It's actually not even comparable. Tom Cruise does a lot of his stunts and ridiculous stunts like that are expected in a spy movie like that. The spy movie genre and the sci-fi Star Wars genre are completely different. The force does not exist in the Mission Impossible franchise and it only exists in the Star Wars franchise. The force is completely fictional.

Why not compare Rey to hmmm I don't know, Anakin or Luke who are in the same fictional universe? Instead of Tom Cruise. How does that comparison make any sense at all.

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#30 Posted by Doctor_Vader (219 posts) - - Show Bio

Mary Sue is one those terms that is used so damn much that pretty much lost the entirety of its meaning. If it ever had a consensual meaning to begin with. But in my opinion, no. She is far from a Mary Sue.

To me a Mary Sue is something like a black hole on the space-continuum of the story. People act differently around her, everything is always about her, she is better than everyone at everything... And the list goes on.

Because lets be honest. Fantastic pilot + naturally skilled in the Force/lightsaber is a trait from both Luke and Anakin, the main characters from the previous trilogies. And it was thoroughly explained trought the movie why she knew so much about fixing ships and its inner workings. So that's bull.

Plus that's the first movie of the saga. It was from the very beggining of the script to have the character development go trought the three movies. Luke began as a whinning immature young man to a true jedi in the span of the three movies. Give Rey a break.

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#31 Posted by catofellow (390 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem for me isn't that Rey has no room to develop as a character, the problem for me is that she has no challenges left to overcome. I don't buy Kylo Ren as a credible threat any longer even though his character is infinitely more interesting. I think he is going to have to be redeemed because she is already so much more powerful than him.

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#32 Edited by Spambot (9408 posts) - - Show Bio

@doctor_vader: People act like Anakin was a well liked character in the prequels when in fact people generally hated him much more than they do Rey but since you brought him up let's compare a few things about them. Comparing ep 1 Anakin to Rey, when we first see Anakin he is given a midichlorian test which says his innate force ability is the highest ever tested and his mother claims his father is essentially the force. We also know he has an innate tech ability which is seen in him being a slave who does almost nothing but work on droids and that he has already built a speeder and C3PO and is the only human who can race speeders. So while yes it is a bit much for an 8 yr old to be able to do we can sort of suspend disbelief due to him being the chosen one and the fact that he literally repairs droids and such things on a daily basis. Also, his pilot skills make sense since its already established he has insane reflexes and has practiced flying speeders at extreme speeds. Its also worth noting that in TPM the ship he flies actually does much of the flying/fighting by itself and much of what he does is just luck. By ep 2 he has already been a padawan for like 10 years so its expected he would have force powers.

Rey on the other hand is just living on a giant desert planet and scavenges for parts. Nothing whatsoever is shown or really alluded to regarding her really having a talent for using or building with said parts. Just that she seems to know what to look for in order to eat. Nothing about her having any experience flying(like was established with Luke for instance in ep4). So while I am perfectly ok with her being semi tech savvy I feel the movie took it to an extreme which made no real logical sense given what we are told about her. She just seems to intuitively know how to use any tech and how to disable it, fix it or w/e the plot requires basically despite what seems like no real training or experience doing such things. Then, we have her just figuring out completely intuitively that she has force powers and that one of them is the ability to control other people's minds which she is able to semi master in a matter of about 2 minutes. When writers do things which force us to suspend disbelief to this degree its what makes a character a Mary Sue to me. Its an example of bad writing that is only justified because the writer wants it to be that way for their own reasons or for plot reasons.

Having said all this, I actually liked her character better than Finn or Poe. I just hope they tone it down a bit in ep8 and actually try to flesh her character out rather than her hiding behind vague nonsense and plot induced powers.

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#33 Posted by linsanel_Doctor (8630 posts) - - Show Bio

And still people will love Rey.

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#34 Posted by AlphaQ (6225 posts) - - Show Bio

Well she did run off from responsibility and had psychological hindrances at first.

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#35 Edited by Rubear (4643 posts) - - Show Bio

@hercuthor said:

Also the First Orders super weapon.....really...a bigger, dumber, less efficient Death Star....again....bravo you Saturday morning cartoon villains

This bigger, dumber, less efficient Death Star detonated whole system in one strike. Cool story about "less efficient".

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#36 Posted by HercuThor (270 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear: It took much longer to "charge" and it required consuming a star all while needing a planet sized base to operate. The Death Star was completely self powered, so yeah less efficient , not less destructive. Cool story indeed

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#37 Posted by judasnixon (12663 posts) - - Show Bio

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#38 Posted by Drmagic (1632 posts) - - Show Bio

Well the entire series is bad with bad characters besides Darth vader

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#39 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio

@spambot said:

@doctor_vader: People act like Anakin was a well liked character in the prequels when in fact people generally hated him much more than they do Rey but since you brought him up let's compare a few things about them. Comparing ep 1 Anakin to Rey, when we first see Anakin he is given a midichlorian test which says his innate force ability is the highest ever tested and his mother claims his father is essentially the force. We also know he has an innate tech ability which is seen in him being a slave who does almost nothing but work on droids and that he has already built a speeder and C3PO and is the only human who can race speeders. So while yes it is a bit much for an 8 yr old to be able to do we can sort of suspend disbelief due to him being the chosen one and the fact that he literally repairs droids and such things on a daily basis. Also, his pilot skills make sense since its already established he has insane reflexes and has practiced flying speeders at extreme speeds. Its also worth noting that in TPM the ship he flies actually does much of the flying/fighting by itself and much of what he does is just luck. By ep 2 he has already been a padawan for like 10 years so its expected he would have force powers.

Rey on the other hand is just living on a giant desert planet and scavenges for parts. Nothing whatsoever is shown or really alluded to regarding her really having a talent for using or building with said parts. Just that she seems to know what to look for in order to eat. Nothing about her having any experience flying(like was established with Luke for instance in ep4). So while I am perfectly ok with her being semi tech savvy I feel the movie took it to an extreme which made no real logical sense given what we are told about her. She just seems to intuitively know how to use any tech and how to disable it, fix it or w/e the plot requires basically despite what seems like no real training or experience doing such things. Then, we have her just figuring out completely intuitively that she has force powers and that one of them is the ability to control other people's minds which she is able to semi master in a matter of about 2 minutes. When writers do things which force us to suspend disbelief to this degree its what makes a character a Mary Sue to me. Its an example of bad writing that is only justified because the writer wants it to be that way for their own reasons or for plot reasons.

Having said all this, I actually liked her character better than Finn or Poe. I just hope they tone it down a bit in ep8 and actually try to flesh her character out rather than her hiding behind vague nonsense and plot induced powers.

Also Anakin is very clearly an extremely flawed human being. in fact the entire series is pretty much about these flaws. Rey on the other hand doesn't seem to have any and if she does she overcomes them in about half an hour.

@rubear At least the Death Star could move.

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#40 Posted by deactivated-5c901e667a76c (36557 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio

@xwraith: It's a planet, it can only orbit.

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#42 Posted by deactivated-5c901e667a76c (36557 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio

@xwraith: Huh that would cause some pretty nuts gravimetric disturbances. Oh well Star Wars I guess.

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#44 Posted by linsanel_Doctor (8630 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm surprised the rebels managed to destroy Starkiller base so easily

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#45 Posted by deactivated-5c901e667a76c (36557 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonny_anonymous: I think it's more accurate to call it a planet converted into a battle station.

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#46 Posted by The Impersonator (8477 posts) - - Show Bio

She was really hot.

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#47 Posted by Tazirai (320 posts) - - Show Bio

@tazirai: Way to use the vagina card here. Maybe you should read people's responses and you'd see their reasons for their dislike of her. There have been plenty of female heros in movies who didn't have a penis that people liked and loved. For example, Sigourney Weaver in Alien and Trinity in the Matrix Trilogy or Scarlett Johansson in Lucy most recently.

It's amazing that everyone here is stating their reasons for their support or dislike of this character, yet you're the one who brings nonsense into the thread.

And the Tom Cruise comparison is absolutely ridiculous. It's actually not even comparable. Tom Cruise does a lot of his stunts and ridiculous stunts like that are expected in a spy movie like that. The spy movie genre and the sci-fi Star Wars genre are completely different. The force does not exist in the Mission Impossible franchise and it only exists in the Star Wars franchise. The force is completely fictional.

Why not compare Rey to hmmm I don't know, Anakin or Luke who are in the same fictional universe? Instead of Tom Cruise. How does that comparison make any sense at all.

Definitely used the Vagina card, and it's Definitely not silly. Women get crapped on for being strong, it's like men can't exist beside a strong woman for some reason. Like Rey i'm one of those people who just has natural talent at many things. It happens. there are people like that. Even Ellen Ripley was far more capable without having to detail every single thing she could do. She just did them, and people accepted it.

But add Lightsaber, and men lose their friggin minds. There are even women out ther, thinking Rey is kinda butch for being able to defend herself. WTF?

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#48 Edited by Spambot (9408 posts) - - Show Bio

@tazirai: I personally feel you are over generalizing and that you are simplifying what is being said in this thread to suit your own narrative regarding Rey. I am perfectly ok with a female lead in a sw movie who wields a lightsaber and can kick some ass. Its fine and prob even overdue. I even sort of liked her character in spite of the criticisms I have made of her character in this thread. Its actually similar to a comic I am currently reading which is the original Star Lord series which features a male character but who like Rey is just written as too much of a Mary Sue. In the instance of Peter Quill/Starlord, he acts like a complete idiot/hothead but still gets chosen to become Starlord, is given a badass gun/outfit and a spaceship which is pretty much unstoppable and also sentient then on top of that when he rescues the king of a galactic empire he also finds out that its his long lost dad. Its just too much and kind of ruins the character for me though I'll prob finish reading it anyhow since I bought it as a trade. Rey is very similar and it has nothing to do with her being female. Its just bad writing.

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#49 Posted by RecreationalDoc (31 posts) - - Show Bio

@linsanel_doctor: Its Star wars. In over half of the movies there is one little thing that can explode the whole base

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#50 Edited by linsanel_Doctor (8630 posts) - - Show Bio

@recreationaldoc: in TFA, we saw like 5-6 planets destroyed, and no one gives a crap lol

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