My main gripe with TWA

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#1 Edited by Spambot (9404 posts) - - Show Bio

is that none of the characters really made a big impression on me. I can semi forgive the remaking of ANH if ep 8 can go in a new direction but after watching TFA none of the characters really had me feeling like I can't wait to see them in ep 8 other than Luke who spoke no words and only appears in the final minute of the movie. Kylo Ren is a so so villain. Conflicted between the light and dark. Not that intimidating or powerful. Finn is like a poor man's Han basically. Poe seems like a guy stolen off of a sit com as the resident one liner guy and thrown in as a bad ass pilot. Phasma was a complete waste of a character. Snoke is mysterious but we really know next to nothing about him. Rey is ok but just the whole going from scavenger on some backwater world barely surviving to awesome pilot who can fix anything and pick up a lightsaber and beat a dark jedi/Sith who's had over a decade of practice to her running away from the lightsaber in the first place made her a bit unbearable. So that's my main gripe with TWA. I would have also liked to get a better sense of what the galaxy really felt like. It seemed like we got a very small taste of what life 30 years after the ot is really like. It felt sort of confined for a series that is set in an entire galaxy.

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#2 Posted by TheBrownPowerRanger (147 posts) - - Show Bio

@spambot: I agree. Also, the way they kinda replaced Han with rey after he died and the way he died pissed me off. Han deserved to die in a grand/heroic way; not being killed by a nobody character. I care about the old characters, not really too much for rey because her role/development with the force felt forced (no pun intended). Where was Lando? Also, we only got 10 seconds of luke.

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#3 Edited by Spambot (9404 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebrownpowerranger: I agree that Han deserved better but they prob thought it was the only way to make Ren seem like a true villain. Lando is too old to be making SW movies and its not like there would be any easy way to just plug him into the movie. I'm ok with Luke only appearing at the end since his presence would have kind of overwhelmed everyone else I think. I see it as Han got this one and Luke gets the next one. Plus it makes more sense for him to appear after Rey discovers some of her powers and is ready to begin real training in the force. Too much serendipity also. Such as the Falcon just happens to be sitting there ready to be stolen by Rey and then Han and Chewie just happen to come across them right after they get away with it. It was too much.

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#4 Posted by TheBrownPowerRanger (147 posts) - - Show Bio

@spambot: I can understand if Billy Dee Williams cant play lando anymore since he is 78 now. However, they still need to give an explanation for the absence of one of the major characters. Also, it feels like they are trying to force the new characters on to us. I dont mind fin, as i like the idea of a defective storm trooper that gained a conscience. However, Rey seemed bland to me.

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#5 Edited by Spambot (9404 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebrownpowerranger: I'm not sure an explanation is required for Lando. I think it can be sort of assumed he is just dead or off in some other quadrant of the galaxy. My main beef with Finn is he just didn't behave like someone trained to be a ss from birth. Asking Rey for instance almost right after he meets her if she has a boyfriend. There's too many wise guys in the movie for my tastes. In the original trilogy it was basically just Han cracking jokes and everyone else treating it like a semi serious drama. In TFA it was rare to find a character who wasn't cracking jokes at every opportunity. Even the droids.

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebrownpowerranger: Actually, I kind of liked Han's death. Han was never into the big heroics or really putting himself out there for the glory. Throughout New Hope and Empire he was trying to find a way out, and he had no problem defying orders like going to look for Luke on Hoth. He was never a true Rebel. After his son abandoned him and Leia, he fell back into smuggling because it's what he knows and is good at. He may have been with Luke and Leia throughout their adventures, but he's a fundamentally different person than either. He died as he lived: that guy in the background who wasn't in it for the heroics, but just to do what he felt was the right thing.

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#7 Edited by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio

@spambot:

Can totally relate to this thread.

The first 1/3 of the movie was great. The second 1/3 came down to good, and the final 1/3 destroyed the movie.

The main mistake in this movie, and I believe any true hardcore fan, can see this, was the absence of Luke Skywalker.

If in the last 1/3 of the movie had Luke in it, then the movie might have been saved.

To me this is how the final 1/3 should've been.

-When Rey is imprisoned, she would hear a voice of a man, telling her that he wanted to help her, and then he'd follow to instructing her in how to mind trick the Stormtrooper.

-When Rey was escaping Luke would be guiding her.

-After Han was impaled by Ren lightsaber, we'd see Han being pulled back by a unseen Force until he reached a hooded figure. The hooded figure would then use the Force to heal Han wounds. And then he'd reveal his face.

-Luke would then Force grab Ren and throw him outside. And he'd tell all the others to get back to the ship.

-Luke would then fight Ren in a true episode 4 style when Vader and Obi-Wan faced off, but with the fighting style of when Yoda faced Dooku.

-Luke would let Ren severely injured. And in a true Skywalker style with one or more limbs cut off.

-In the end we'd see Luke talking with both Leia and Han. Until the time came that he'd go to Rey and ask her if she wanted to learn the ways of the Force. To which she'd say that she did. We'd see them leave.

-We could see Finn looking at Rey leaving, Han would come up to him and offer to help him out to find his place in the Resistance, and guide/teach him the best he could.

-We'd see Luke and Rey arriving at the planet Luke had disappeared all those years. We'd see a huge structure to which Luke would tell Rey that that was the first Jedi Temple, the ship would land and when both Luke and Rey exit the ship, Luke would be welcomed by other Jedi Masters, Knights and padawans. Revealing that Luke had managed to rebuild the Jedi Order just like Yoda hoped he would, and Rey would join him and Luke could say something like this "A new age is beginning. And you'll play a major role in it. Your true path begins now." And the movie would end here.

At least this way, not only would the movie would've been saved, but it would show that that was really just the beginning. That a lot more things were gonna be explored and explained in the next movies.

A true new interesting saga would've started.

Not this movie we got, that's in no way a worthy successor to Return of the Jedi.

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#8 Edited by Spambot (9404 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon: At least your idea would have been something new. Abrams problem is he is too sure in his own ideas imo. He thinks he is making a truly great movie by just rehashing ANH and having things like the Millennium Falcon just sitting there waiting to be used because 'omg, its the Millennium Falcon'. It seems like he actually concerned himself with the story last when making this movie. Definitely would have been nice to establish Luke more in the first movie. It seemed like once he decided that Han would die that he wanted to get him into the movie as much as possible.

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#9 Posted by SpideyIvyDaredevilFan26 (7222 posts) - - Show Bio

Kylo Ren was an awesome character acted PHENOMENALLY. Really mysterious and intimidating, I just want to know more about this guy; who he is, why he fell, e.t.c. Finn was extremely likable and I thought his backstory was unique and creative. Plus, I'm a huge John Boyega fan so that helps, :P. Rey...Yeah, she sucks. I'm sorry, she really, really does. I have never seen a character be THAT much of a Mary Sue possibly EVER. She is perfect at everything she tries, is instantly trusted by Han, has NO noticeable character flaws and worst of all, beats a FORCE USER TRAINED BY LUKE SKYWALKER AND SNOKE IN A LIGHTSABER BATTLE DESPITE JUST PICKING UP A LIGHTSABER THAT DAY!! That is bad fan-fic writing and makes Rey totally unrelatable to me.

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#10 Posted by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio

@spambot:

J.J seems to have gone into it, with the same strategy he used with the Star Trek reboot. Only problem being that he wasn't handling a reboot but a sequel.

That or he went like Brian Singer with Superman Returns, that instead of creating something new, simply took pieces from the first two movies and made a kind of tribute instead of a movie.

And you're right. Maybe J.J has had too much sucess for his own good. Honestly what made me less concerned about a movie payed by Disney was the fact that J.J would be at the helm of the ship, but after seeing the end result I also wonder if he really had total control or if had to work within certain rules. After all J.J has said he's been a long time Star Wars fan, and I can't see a true SW fan doing such a poor work as he did.

Has far as I'm concern Episode 8 and 9 aren't even in my list of movies to wait for.

Maybe if they did a prequel movie depicting the Old Republic, and the final years of fight between the Jedi and Sith, before the Sith went apparently extinct for a thousand years, that would peak my curiosity.

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#11 Posted by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by OrangeBat (960 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

@spambot:

Can totally relate to this thread.

The first 1/3 of the movie was great. The second 1/3 came down to good, and the final 1/3 destroyed the movie.

The main mistake in this movie, and I believe any true hardcore fan, can see this, was the absence of Luke Skywalker.

If in the last 1/3 of the movie had Luke in it, then the movie might have been saved.

To me this is how the final 1/3 should've been.

-When Rey is imprisoned, she would hear a voice of a man, telling her that he wanted to help her, and then he'd follow to instructing her in how to mind trick the Stormtrooper.

-When Rey was escaping Luke would be guiding her.

-After Han was impaled by Ren lightsaber, we'd see Han being pulled back by a unseen Force until he reached a hooded figure. The hooded figure would then use the Force to heal Han wounds. And then he'd reveal his face.

-Luke would then Force grab Ren and throw him outside. And he'd tell all the others to get back to the ship.

-Luke would then fight Ren in a true episode 4 style when Vader and Obi-Wan faced off, but with the fighting style of when Yoda faced Dooku.

-Luke would let Ren severely injured. And in a true Skywalker style with one or more limbs cut off.

-In the end we'd see Luke talking with both Leia and Han. Until the time came that he'd go to Rey and ask her if she wanted to learn the ways of the Force. To which she'd say that she did. We'd see them leave.

-We could see Finn looking at Rey leaving, Han would come up to him and offer to help him out to find his place in the Resistance, and guide/teach him the best he could.

-We'd see Luke and Rey arriving at the planet Luke had disappeared all those years. We'd see a huge structure to which Luke would tell Rey that that was the first Jedi Temple, the ship would land and when both Luke and Rey exit the ship, Luke would be welcomed by other Jedi Masters, Knights and padawans. Revealing that Luke had managed to rebuild the Jedi Order just like Yoda hoped he would, and Rey would join him and Luke could say something like this "A new age is beginning. And you'll play a major role in it. Your true path begins now." And the movie would end here.

At least this way, not only would the movie would've been saved, but it would show that that was really just the beginning. That a lot more things were gonna be explored and explained in the next movies.

A true new interesting saga would've started.

Not this movie we got, that's in no way a worthy successor to Return of the Jedi.

That's actually worse than what we got. Now instead of Rey Sue, we'd have Luke Ex Machina.

The entire movie needed to be reworked from the ground up, starting from the fact that they illogically forced galactic events so that the movie would start more or less the same as A New Hope did, from Finn's wonky character, to Rey's crappy character, to plot device Poe, to I'm-just-here-for-my-paycheck Harrison Ford, to Death Star 3.0 and the illogical way in which it breaks the rules of reality, to Luke's lightsaber which he lost at Bespin, and which previously belonged to his father, somehow showing up and giving Rey flashbacks to events which said lightsaber should have no connection to. If we were talking about Luke's newer, GREEN lightsaber, I could have swallowed that rubbish more easily.

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#13 Posted by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

@spambot:

Can totally relate to this thread.

The first 1/3 of the movie was great. The second 1/3 came down to good, and the final 1/3 destroyed the movie.

The main mistake in this movie, and I believe any true hardcore fan, can see this, was the absence of Luke Skywalker.

If in the last 1/3 of the movie had Luke in it, then the movie might have been saved.

To me this is how the final 1/3 should've been.

-When Rey is imprisoned, she would hear a voice of a man, telling her that he wanted to help her, and then he'd follow to instructing her in how to mind trick the Stormtrooper.

-When Rey was escaping Luke would be guiding her.

-After Han was impaled by Ren lightsaber, we'd see Han being pulled back by a unseen Force until he reached a hooded figure. The hooded figure would then use the Force to heal Han wounds. And then he'd reveal his face.

-Luke would then Force grab Ren and throw him outside. And he'd tell all the others to get back to the ship.

-Luke would then fight Ren in a true episode 4 style when Vader and Obi-Wan faced off, but with the fighting style of when Yoda faced Dooku.

-Luke would let Ren severely injured. And in a true Skywalker style with one or more limbs cut off.

-In the end we'd see Luke talking with both Leia and Han. Until the time came that he'd go to Rey and ask her if she wanted to learn the ways of the Force. To which she'd say that she did. We'd see them leave.

-We could see Finn looking at Rey leaving, Han would come up to him and offer to help him out to find his place in the Resistance, and guide/teach him the best he could.

-We'd see Luke and Rey arriving at the planet Luke had disappeared all those years. We'd see a huge structure to which Luke would tell Rey that that was the first Jedi Temple, the ship would land and when both Luke and Rey exit the ship, Luke would be welcomed by other Jedi Masters, Knights and padawans. Revealing that Luke had managed to rebuild the Jedi Order just like Yoda hoped he would, and Rey would join him and Luke could say something like this "A new age is beginning. And you'll play a major role in it. Your true path begins now." And the movie would end here.

At least this way, not only would the movie would've been saved, but it would show that that was really just the beginning. That a lot more things were gonna be explored and explained in the next movies.

A true new interesting saga would've started.

Not this movie we got, that's in no way a worthy successor to Return of the Jedi.

That's actually worse than what we got. Now instead of Rey Sue, we'd have Luke Ex Machina.

The entire movie needed to be reworked from the ground up, starting from the fact that they illogically forced galactic events so that the movie would start more or less the same as A New Hope did, from Finn's wonky character, to Rey's crappy character, to plot device Poe, to I'm-just-here-for-my-paycheck Harrison Ford, to Death Star 3.0 and the illogical way in which it breaks the rules of reality, to Luke's lightsaber which he lost at Bespin, and which previously belonged to his father, somehow showing up and giving Rey flashbacks to events which said lightsaber should have no connection to. If we were talking about Luke's newer, GREEN lightsaber, I could have swallowed that rubbish more easily.

Worst...?! Nothing could be worst than what we got.

As for how Luke gets his father lightsaber back. In the EU it was explained quite well. But seeing that's non-canon material now, it doesn't count nor does it fit this movie story.

You'll just have to believe in J.J. explanation, that it magically found its way to the hands of the one person that would deliver it to the other person (Rey) that would eventually bring it back to Luke.

Now that's poor story telling, anyplace in the planet.

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#14 Posted by OrangeBat (960 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

@orangebat said:

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

@spambot:

Can totally relate to this thread.

The first 1/3 of the movie was great. The second 1/3 came down to good, and the final 1/3 destroyed the movie.

The main mistake in this movie, and I believe any true hardcore fan, can see this, was the absence of Luke Skywalker.

If in the last 1/3 of the movie had Luke in it, then the movie might have been saved.

To me this is how the final 1/3 should've been.

-When Rey is imprisoned, she would hear a voice of a man, telling her that he wanted to help her, and then he'd follow to instructing her in how to mind trick the Stormtrooper.

-When Rey was escaping Luke would be guiding her.

-After Han was impaled by Ren lightsaber, we'd see Han being pulled back by a unseen Force until he reached a hooded figure. The hooded figure would then use the Force to heal Han wounds. And then he'd reveal his face.

-Luke would then Force grab Ren and throw him outside. And he'd tell all the others to get back to the ship.

-Luke would then fight Ren in a true episode 4 style when Vader and Obi-Wan faced off, but with the fighting style of when Yoda faced Dooku.

-Luke would let Ren severely injured. And in a true Skywalker style with one or more limbs cut off.

-In the end we'd see Luke talking with both Leia and Han. Until the time came that he'd go to Rey and ask her if she wanted to learn the ways of the Force. To which she'd say that she did. We'd see them leave.

-We could see Finn looking at Rey leaving, Han would come up to him and offer to help him out to find his place in the Resistance, and guide/teach him the best he could.

-We'd see Luke and Rey arriving at the planet Luke had disappeared all those years. We'd see a huge structure to which Luke would tell Rey that that was the first Jedi Temple, the ship would land and when both Luke and Rey exit the ship, Luke would be welcomed by other Jedi Masters, Knights and padawans. Revealing that Luke had managed to rebuild the Jedi Order just like Yoda hoped he would, and Rey would join him and Luke could say something like this "A new age is beginning. And you'll play a major role in it. Your true path begins now." And the movie would end here.

At least this way, not only would the movie would've been saved, but it would show that that was really just the beginning. That a lot more things were gonna be explored and explained in the next movies.

A true new interesting saga would've started.

Not this movie we got, that's in no way a worthy successor to Return of the Jedi.

That's actually worse than what we got. Now instead of Rey Sue, we'd have Luke Ex Machina.

The entire movie needed to be reworked from the ground up, starting from the fact that they illogically forced galactic events so that the movie would start more or less the same as A New Hope did, from Finn's wonky character, to Rey's crappy character, to plot device Poe, to I'm-just-here-for-my-paycheck Harrison Ford, to Death Star 3.0 and the illogical way in which it breaks the rules of reality, to Luke's lightsaber which he lost at Bespin, and which previously belonged to his father, somehow showing up and giving Rey flashbacks to events which said lightsaber should have no connection to. If we were talking about Luke's newer, GREEN lightsaber, I could have swallowed that rubbish more easily.

Worst...?! Nothing could be worst than what we got.

As for how Luke gets his father lightsaber back. In the EU it was explained quite well. But seeing that's non-canon material now, it doesn't count nor does it fit this movie story.

You'll just have to believe in J.J. explanation, that it magically found its way to the hands of the one person that would deliver it to the other person (Rey) that would eventually bring it back to Luke.

Now that's poor story telling, anyplace in the planet.

That is poor storytelling, but your revision does virtually nothing to fix it, and instead merely adds Luke to the end of the tale in the form of a Deus Ex Machina that shows up to save our heroes and humiliate the bad guys. I like Luke well enough, but not enough to have him show up out of nowhere and save the day by making the villains look even more incompetent that they already were.

I also never understood the need for Luke to get Anakin's lightsaber back beyond plain old sentimentality. He already has one, it's not like he's ever going to use it. I have a horrible feeling it's going to end up being used as some lame MacGuffin.

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#15 Posted by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio

@orangebat:

Well. In the EU there wasn't that need. It just happened.

After Luke lost his hand and lightsaber with it. The hand and lightsaber found its way to the garbage disposal facility. A droid noticed the lightsaber and gave it to Vader.

Vader kept the lightsaber, after all it was his lightsaber, and after Vader and Sidious death, the Empire took possession of it, and they cloned Luke, they gave the lightsaber to Luke clone. When Mara Jade defeated and killed Luke's clone, she later gave the lightsaber back to Luke. Which he in turn didn't accepted it, and asked Mara to keep it. That it was her lightsaber now.

Sure the story was way longer than this. It took a lot of books to close the cycle, but it was a interesting story nevertheless.

Now in Force Awakens, the lightsaber is simply there. No explanation why. It was there to be found by Rey. To now hint that she might be a Skywalker because of her connection to the weapon.

Honestly Rey sudden development, Ren lack of talent, Finn being basically thrown around from one bad situation to another, Snoke, the First Order, even the Starkiller weapon... Nothing new. Just a bunch of stuff pulled together from the previous movies, add some more recent CGI, and I've explained the entire movie in a nutshell.

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#16 Posted by joshmightbe (27562 posts) - - Show Bio

Kylo Ren was an awesome character acted PHENOMENALLY. Really mysterious and intimidating, I just want to know more about this guy; who he is, why he fell, e.t.c. Finn was extremely likable and I thought his backstory was unique and creative. Plus, I'm a huge John Boyega fan so that helps, :P. Rey...Yeah, she sucks. I'm sorry, she really, really does. I have never seen a character be THAT much of a Mary Sue possibly EVER. She is perfect at everything she tries, is instantly trusted by Han, has NO noticeable character flaws and worst of all, beats a FORCE USER TRAINED BY LUKE SKYWALKER AND SNOKE IN A LIGHTSABER BATTLE DESPITE JUST PICKING UP A LIGHTSABER THAT DAY!! That is bad fan-fic writing and makes Rey totally unrelatable to me.

Why does everyone forget that Kylo had just been shot by Chewie's suped up bow caster right before the fight. That damn thing was hurling storm troopers across a field like they were nothing. The fact that Ren could stand, let alone have a light saber fight was a miracle.

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#17 Edited by Hungry_Sharky (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

Disagree with OP.

Kylo Ren was an outstanding villain. He wasn't supposed to be the most powerful or intimidating villain in the movie, Hux and Snoke filled those roles. Kylo Ren was a young Jedi who is struggling with being seduced to the Dark Side... It was awesome.

Poe Dameron was a complete badass! Not very often in films do I think to myself "Yeah! He's freaking brave!" but Poe made me do that. It was just so cool when out of nowhere this pilot flies to the rescue and says something like "Don't let these thugs scare you." Complete badass. And he didn't have cheesy one-liners. Oscar Isaac is just awesome.

Finn was pretty dang likable. He had an interesting backstory. Although I do find it hard to believe that he is so radically different from all of the other Stormtroopers, despite being raised from birth to be this cold killing machine.

Rey... Ehh, I'm neutral. She's aright.

And the old cast was phenomenal. It is a sequel to RotJ after all, so they are allowed to rely on and use these characters. Han and Chewie, in particular, were awesome. And the last scene of TFA was pretty much the best acting Mark Hamill has ever done, and he didn't even have any lines.

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#18 Edited by Spambot (9404 posts) - - Show Bio

@hungry_sharky: To each their own and that's fine if you thought Poe and Kylo were great characters but my own impression of them was what I wrote in the op. General redhead didn't even seem to really respect Kylo or his authority. He treated him like a kid basically. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with me but nothing anyone says will change my own impression of those characters. Finn just didn't act like someone who was raised from birth to obey orders and kill. Poe treated everything more or less like he was on a sitcom in terms of how he spoke. He wasn't a bad character I just would have liked to seen him be a bit more serious.

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