Kylo Ren: Good or Bad Villain

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Posted by Batman3000 (5652 posts) 3 years, 3 months ago

Poll: Kylo Ren: Good or Bad Villain (64 votes)

Good 67%
Bad 33%

I know a lot of people kinda sorta hate him for killing Han. But I also know a lot of people who really liked him as a villain. So my question is did you enjoy him as a villain?

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#1 Edited by Life_Without_Progress (24223 posts) - - Show Bio

Think of him like Prince Zuko, a good character but a terrible villain. His character background and traits are rather interesting and relatable but he's not an intimidating and very skilled villain.

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#2 Posted by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio

Calling him a villain is almost a insult to every villain in the SW universe.

But I'll bite. Let's call him that.

First and foremost, his main problem seemed to be anger management control issues.

Secondly, his adoration for Vader and saying he'd finish what Vader started. Well Vader didn't started anything. Sidious did. If anything Vader failed at becoming a true Sith. For a true Sith has to surpass his master, and Vader never did so. Vader failed has a Sith and failed has a Jedi when he was a Jedi.

Third... He was so split apart about what he was doing, that from the exception of the first time he appears he never felt like a villain to me. More like a kid angry at the world, lashing out at everything and everyone.

Four. He got owned by Rey. A newbie Force user with no training whatsoever.

Five. Killing his father didn't make him anymore of a villain, it only served to make him look even more pathetic.

So here it is. Five reasons why he's not a good villain.

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#3 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

Bad. Really bad. Why did disney go for parody here i will nevet know. He reminds me of some of the geeky guy cosplays i have seen

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#4 Posted by Batman3000 (5652 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Great villain :D he's way more human than those pieces of wood in the prequels and has way more development to him in one movie than Vader had in three. Plus, not being the most powerful dude ever leaves room for him to grow in later films

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#6 Posted by kgb725 (18715 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Fallschirmjager (23432 posts) - - Show Bio

Still not sure tbh. He has good moments, but some really bad ones too.

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#8 Edited by Uncanny_Doom (845 posts) - - Show Bio

Great villain. It surprises me how many complaints we see about static, boring, one-note villains in movies these days, and then Kylo Ren has depth and people complain.

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#9 Edited by Arinya (509 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

Five. Killing his father didn't make him anymore of a villain, it only served to make him look even more pathetic.

Yikes! So killing your father doesn't make you a bad character? During the movie we saw an immature and very unhinged Jedi pushing the light out of his heart. He wants to be dark so bad he even kills his father to prove it! You need to think a bit more about the character to realize he's a complex villain. And if you don't think killing your father makes you bad you got problems son. =P

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#10 Posted by Hungry_Sharky (1394 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by TheExile285 (4353 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh. He wasn't fleshed out very well in TFA. I'm curious to see how they'll deal with him in the next movie though.

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#12 Edited by Stefano (2525 posts) - - Show Bio

Great villain :D he's way more human than those pieces of wood in the prequels and has way more development to him in one movie than Vader had in three. Plus, not being the most powerful dude ever leaves room for him to grow in later films

Agree!

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#13 Posted by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio

Good villain for that bridge scene.

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#15 Posted by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon

Calling him a villain is almost a insult to every villain in the SW universe.

Oh please.

But I'll bite. Let's call him that.

First and foremost, his main problem seemed to be anger management control issues.

He's a sith. A sith apprentice at that. They follow their rage, their intense emotions. And all the Skywalkers have anger issues. Anakin had it. Luke had it (his fight with Vader). Kylo has it.

Secondly, his adoration for Vader and saying he'd finish what Vader started. Well Vader didn't started anything. Sidious did. If anything Vader failed at becoming a true Sith. For a true Sith has to surpass his master, and Vader never did so. Vader failed has a Sith and failed has a Jedi when he was a Jedi.

Nigga. Vader was out hunting Jedi and the rebels. He killed off most of the remaining ones and dealt a great blow to the rebels while leading the Stromtroopers. Vader spent years retooling himself despite his disadvantages. He never surpassed Sidious but to say he never started anything is asinine. In the end he was able to renounce his darkness so saying he failed as a Jedi is objectively wrong. He ended up bringing balance to the forced again. Kylo helped kill off the new Jedi that were being trained and he's on his way to becoming even more powerful. He's definitely finishing what Vader started.

Third... He was so split apart about what he was doing, that from the exception of the first time he appears he never felt like a villain to me. More like a kid angry at the world, lashing out at everything and everyone.

Well. That's why he's still an apprentice. He's still learning and seeking my power from the dark side. Him being split is what gave him depth and gives room for a ton of character development. Anger comes with being a sith.

Four. He got owned by Rey. A newbie Force user with no training whatsoever.

Plot force saved Rey. While injured and emotionally frustrated he still one shotted her. At the beginning of their fight, he had her on the run but as I said before, plot force set in. If getting owned by the protagonist in the final conflict makes you a bad villain....literally every villain in history is bad at some point.

Five. Killing his father didn't make him anymore of a villain, it only served to make him look even more pathetic.

That's more than what Vader did. Despite the call to the light, for more power, he sank further to the Dark Side by killing one of the two people who actually loved him. If killing your own father to become more in touch with the dark side is pathetic, I don't know what to tell you.

So here it is. Five reasons why he's not a good villain.

Five really poor reasons.

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#16 Edited by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

Calling him a villain is almost a insult to every villain in the SW universe.

But I'll bite. Let's call him that.

First and foremost, his main problem seemed to be anger management control issues.

Secondly, his adoration for Vader and saying he'd finish what Vader started. Well Vader didn't started anything. Sidious did. If anything Vader failed at becoming a true Sith. For a true Sith has to surpass his master, and Vader never did so. Vader failed has a Sith and failed has a Jedi when he was a Jedi.

Third... He was so split apart about what he was doing, that from the exception of the first time he appears he never felt like a villain to me. More like a kid angry at the world, lashing out at everything and everyone.

Four. He got owned by Rey. A newbie Force user with no training whatsoever.

Five. Killing his father didn't make him anymore of a villain, it only served to make him look even more pathetic.

So here it is. Five reasons why he's not a good villain.

This man deserves a title of the Galactic Mastermind.

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#17 Posted by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon

Calling him a villain is almost a insult to every villain in the SW universe.

Oh please.

But I'll bite. Let's call him that.

First and foremost, his main problem seemed to be anger management control issues.

He's a sith. A sith apprentice at that. They follow their rage, their intense emotions. And all the Skywalkers have anger issues. Anakin had it. Luke had it (his fight with Vader). Kylo has it.

Secondly, his adoration for Vader and saying he'd finish what Vader started. Well Vader didn't started anything. Sidious did. If anything Vader failed at becoming a true Sith. For a true Sith has to surpass his master, and Vader never did so. Vader failed has a Sith and failed has a Jedi when he was a Jedi.

Nigga. Vader was out hunting Jedi and the rebels. He killed off most of the remaining ones and dealt a great blow to the rebels while leading the Stromtroopers. Vader spent years retooling himself despite his disadvantages. He never surpassed Sidious but to say he never started anything is asinine. In the end he was able to renounce his darkness so saying he failed as a Jedi is objectively wrong. He ended up bringing balance to the forced again. Kylo helped kill off the new Jedi that were being trained and he's on his way to becoming even more powerful. He's definitely finishing what Vader started.

Third... He was so split apart about what he was doing, that from the exception of the first time he appears he never felt like a villain to me. More like a kid angry at the world, lashing out at everything and everyone.

Well. That's why he's still an apprentice. He's still learning and seeking my power from the dark side. Him being split is what gave him depth and gives room for a ton of character development. Anger comes with being a sith.

Four. He got owned by Rey. A newbie Force user with no training whatsoever.

Plot force saved Rey. While injured and emotionally frustrated he still one shotted her. At the beginning of their fight, he had her on the run but as I said before, plot force set in. If getting owned by the protagonist in the final conflict makes you a bad villain....literally every villain in history is bad at some point.

Five. Killing his father didn't make him anymore of a villain, it only served to make him look even more pathetic.

That's more than what Vader did. Despite the call to the light, for more power, he sank further to the Dark Side by killing one of the two people who actually loved him. If killing your own father to become more in touch with the dark side is pathetic, I don't know what to tell you.

So here it is. Five reasons why he's not a good villain.

Five really poor reasons.

First of all the use of the 'N' word speaks volumes about why anyone shouldn't take you seriously.

And now point by point:

1. First of all Luke was the least enraged person. Even in moments when he should've been really angry he didn't went anywhere near using his lightsaber to cut stuff off, like a whining little punk. Anakin greatest problem wasn't anger, but greed. Anakin wanted to be the best, he wanted to be recognized as the greatest Jedi, he wanted Padmé... Basically he wanted everything.

Kylo Ren had little to almost no control over his emotions. Even for a Sith that's pathetic. Only someone that doesn't know anything about Jedi's and Sith's can't see this.

2. By your own words Vader was nothing more than a lackey. Sidious trained dog, that only got the balls to act against him, because Sidious was focused trying to kill Luke and he got him from the back, like a coward. That's what your words transmits.

Also he didn't brought balance to anything. The Force itself is always in balance, something you'd know if you read the books, it's the Force users that create imbalance, either by creating too much Order and to little Chaos or vice versa. So Anakin in the end was the one to help Sidious to actually create true imbalance and he undid the same imbalance by killing Sidious at the cost of his own life.

So in the end he fixed a problem he helped create. Now I don't know about you but that's the same as doing a 360. He started out well, went down the wrong road and ended well. Full cycle stuff.

3. A weak apprentice you mean. And your views of a Sith... Sorry man, but you don't understand a thing about the Sith. Being a Sith is much more than using anger and hate, or anyother negative emotions. It's about controlling that hate, focusing it in the most effective way. Read the three Darth Bane books and you'll learn something.

The Sith code itself says it so.

Peace is a lie, there's only passion

Through passion I gain strength

Through strength I gain power

Through power I gain victory

Through victory my chains are broken

The Force shall set me free

Kylo passion if anything was all over the place. Has for strength and power goes, Rey put him in his place in the end. Call it plot convenience all you want. It doesn't change anything.

"My chains are broken" Kylo is nothing more than Snoke puppet so has chains go he's more chained now than before. Before he still had the chance to redeem himself, but after killing his father he's more chained than ever.

"The Force shall set me free"... Same as before. With the addition of him being so dependent of Snoke.

Vader stayed with Sidious, because he knew there was a lot Sidious kept hidden from him. So it was more of a convenience connection. That's why in episode 5 he wanted Luke to join him. Vader was smart, and had his own agenda he kept from Sidious. Kylo obviously has no desire, no passion. Even his main objective was to copy Vader. That alone shown how much of a failure he is.

4. Already explained this. Not gonna repeat myself.

5. It was pathetic because Kylo actually thought that by killing his father he'd become more powerful. And he obviously didn't. In fact killing his father only heightened his instability.

He's nowhere near the great Sith, like Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos, Revan (when he was a Sith), Bane, Andeddu, Freedon Nadd. If he and Dooku faced off, Dooku would most likely kill Kylo with little trouble, and Dooku in the end was nothing more than a puppet also.

Has for my five reasons. They're my reasons. Reasons that you found no way to disprove. You either had your own opinions or you used your own perceptions of a given moment. With the exception of Rey clear plot convenience use of Force, that was clear as water by the way, you didn't used a single fact to prove my points were wrong.

My opinions doesn't match your opinions. Too bad.

Not gonna lose sleep because of it.

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#18 Posted by Doctor_Vader (219 posts) - - Show Bio

@life_without_progress:

Really like the comparison. There is obviously an inter turmoil inside him and he is a character in construction still. He is in conflict and is affecting him in a lot of ways. A lot of people were expecting a Vader 2.0 and were dissapointed.

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#19 Posted by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon: Oh look a huge wall ofor text thay I'm not going to bother to read! You may not lose sleep over it but you went out of your way to type all that lmao

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#20 Edited by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthaznable:

First of all your english sucks.

Second, I didn't write it for you, 2Pac. Not really. But for anyone reading what we both wrote.

Now that that's clear. You can got back to recording your demo tape.

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#21 Posted by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthaznable:

First of all your english sucks.

Second, I didn't write it for you, Einstein. Not really. But for anyone reading what we both wrote.

Now that that's clear. You can got back to recording your demo tape.

Oh no I made typos on mobile that I was too lazy to correct. Demo tape? Lol resorting to racial insults, what a brave man you are! If you're trying to be racist at least get it right, it's a mixtape. You're behind the times. You didn't write it for me but you tagged me and directly replied trying to refute what I said as if your opinion is more valid. Now shouldn't you get back to NOT losing sleep over this?

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#22 Posted by Speedster101 (2984 posts) - - Show Bio

Good character, definitely. But he's too weak to be a good villain ATM.

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#23 Posted by Kundelar (524 posts) - - Show Bio

Great villain :D he's way more human than those pieces of wood in the prequels and has way more development to him in one movie than Vader had in three. Plus, not being the most powerful dude ever leaves room for him to grow in later films

You just said Kylo Ren was a better character than Vader...didn't you *closes eyes and swallows cyanide*.

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#24 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
@nicksmi56 said:

Great villain :D he's way more human than those pieces of wood in the prequels and has way more development to him in one movie than Vader had in three. Plus, not being the most powerful dude ever leaves room for him to grow in later films

You just said Kylo Ren was a better character than Vader...didn't you *closes eyes and swallows cyanide*.

He certainly has more going for him story wise than Vader did in the original trilogy. We didn't get any character for Vader until Empire, and we didn't get any development until Jedi. Kylo, in contrast, not only has a fleshed out backstory with everything besides his motives, but some clear seeds of conflict in his psyche and the chance to grow in future films.

Vader was cool because of his awesome factor, not because of how deep his character was. So in terms of being a better character, yeah, Kylo takes it.

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#25 Posted by the_stegman (40186 posts) - - Show Bio

He's like Loki. Interesting rational , but he gets his butt kicked too much.

Moderator
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#26 Edited by Fallschirmjager (23432 posts) - - Show Bio

I still think people are being blind to the fact that the only difference between Anakin in the prequels and Kylo in 7 is Driver is a much better actor than Christiansin.

Seriously. Sith Lords = young adults with parental issues. Nothing more, apparently.

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#27 Posted by TifaLockhart (21107 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone else think he looks like Paul from the Wonder Years?

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#28 Posted by Batman3000 (5652 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#29 Posted by Spambot (9387 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm really split between good and bad for him but I think there is still a chance for him to develop into a good villain in the next movie.

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#30 Posted by BatWatch (5487 posts) - - Show Bio

Mostly, I think he's interesting, and I guess that makes him good. I found myself a little disappointed in all the recycled elements of force awakens, but I really liked the new elements. Kylo is fresh. I'm interested in seeing how he develops.

However, his attitude and skill level makes him less intimidating than Vader, so if you want someone who is an unquestioned badass, Kylo isn't your guy.

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#31 Posted by Batman3000 (5652 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#32 Posted by linsanel_Doctor (8630 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Bat_SAINT (959 posts) - - Show Bio

The only reason why people don't like him is because he lost to Rey, which she is probably Luke's daughter so yea. Also isn't star wars known for its villains losing due to PIS. Ren was shot in the stomach by chewbaccas gun that caused explosion and launched people like 30 feet backwards and also just killed his father that he obviously still loved. Rey only won when she had her PIS force amp. That being said Kylo Ren was an awesome villain and will continue to be one. Especially after he finishes his training.

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#34 Posted by acer51 (2695 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't respect a villain who throws a tantrum every-time something doesn't go his way, it completely destroys the illusion that he's a bad-ass and kind of just makes him look like the pathetic, weak, petulant brat that he actually is.

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#35 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

The big problem about the Sith, is when he isn't self confident about what he's doing.

Maul, Dooku, Sidious, Vader all believed in the Dark Side.

Kilo Rey doesn't even know what he wants.

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#36 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon: even in the 2 bad Star Wars movies, the villains were still great, but this guy is really a terrible villian for a good movie, he is not intimidating at all, his motivation makes no sense, he does realize that anakin redeemed himself, killed the most powerful with of all time and is making dark siders suck his immortal ghostly balls? Kyle ren's voice sounds like a guy on SNL, and when he's "conflicted", he really just looks constipated, the Ben solo from the eu was much better(though he never was a bad guy). This guy's Eu counter part jacen was much better. The only star villian I can think off who was worse was Harris offee

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#37 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

This has inspired me to make a blog about the worst SW villians(surprisingly there's very few)

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#38 Edited by HeavenlyDarkDragon (2219 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Kylo Ren was pathetic. I guess this sums it all up quite well.

Of all Star Wars villains he is by far the worst. He had no feeling in him, no real purpose. He was just a pawn. At least Vader, no matter how messed up he was physically at least he stayed with Sidious for the simple reason, that he knew he wasn't powerful enough to defeat him, and that Sidious held back many of his knowledge.

It was only when Luke appeard that he saw his chance. Anyone that read Return Of The Jedi book knows that unlike in the movie, Vader wasn't so easily defeated by Luke, that he did some holding back of his own. It was only when it became clear to him that Luke was far more powerful that even he anticipated, that he really took things seriously, even though in the end it was clearly not enough.

But still he was able to redeem himself.

Kylo doesn't even has that. After killing Han, he pretty much lost all interest right there. Kylo as a character no longer has anything to surprise people. Snoke will most likely just use him up and try to turn Rey instead to the dark side.

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#39 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@heavenlydarkdragon: I have no problem with him being a pawn, dooku worked great as a pawn, my problem is being a pawn shouldn't make you so weak, a sympathetic villian is not the same as a pathetic one

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#40 Posted by MakkyD (6989 posts) - - Show Bio

He's pretty complex for a star wars villain.

I mean people forget the Emperor in the original trilogy is probably one of the most generic bad guys out there but he's still popular.

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#41 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@makkyd: being complex doesn't make a character good, good characterization makes a character good regardless of whether it's simple or complex. Kylo ren's motivation is pretty weak, his whimpering does not make him conflicted, it makes him a bad Star Wars villian, Rotj Vader was conflicted, he didn't whimper every other line

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