Is It Good That Homecoming Lacks Emotional Weight?

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#1 Edited by ZhangThong12 (237 posts) - - Show Bio

As some have pointed out, Spider-Man Homecoming was a fun movie, but some of them found it to be weightless in the emotional department. I do agree with that sentiment. It is a very straightforward film that doesn't take itself seriously and relies on humour more than on heartfelt emotions. But that begs the question: was it a good idea? Spider-Man comics always - Aways! - have been known for being overly dramatic and character-driven, and the humour was mostly there as an accompanying aspect that most of the time gets unnoticed. Now, that's not to say as if Spider-Man didn't have comics that were pure comedies, but, the most iconic stories with the character - The Night Gwen Stacy Died, The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man, Spider Man: Blue - are all very heartfelt stories. So was it a good idea to kick-start the brand new Spider-Man in the MCU in such way?

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#2 Edited by Royal_Warrior (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

In all the MCU movies it probably has one of the highest emotional weight in my opinion

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#3 Posted by ZhangThong12 (237 posts) - - Show Bio

@royal_warrior: I disagree with that. Outside the homage scene to Spider-Man #33, there wasn't anything truly emotional in the movie. Iron Man and Winter Soldier felt far more emotional to me.

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#4 Posted by g2_ (11974 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by clonesaga2099 (229 posts) - - Show Bio

Well probably. It made it more appealing to kids, and it made it simpler for casual audiences.

That being said, for me it didn't work. Too much comedy made it difficult to form any emotional connection to the character of Peter Parker/Spider-Man. I had no reason to care about him and so his problems didn't matter to me.

Peter was kind of boring the whole time.

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#6 Posted by ZhangThong12 (237 posts) - - Show Bio

@g2_: it was kind of emotional, but then kind of wasn't. I think there should've been more emphasis on their relationships, so that their breakup would be more heartfelt. If the movie would cut the character of Ned and Michele out of the movie and instead only focus on Peter and Liz, that may have made the movie stronger. But that's just me.

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#7 Posted by g2_ (11974 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by Robert2928 (154 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm all for fun super hero movies. I wanted to like Spider-Man Homecoming but alas I just couldn't similarly to how I want to like the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon. The target audience is clear and it alienates me as a result (just as with all the new Spider-Man animated series) I liked Homecoming more than the Amazing Spider-Man but that was a low bar for me (very low)

I was ultimately left underwhelmed by the movie. I have little to no desire to watch it again or really add it to my collection of dvds/blurays. Then again that's how I feel about 90% of MCU movies so yeah...maybe it did need more emotional weight. It felt more like a Disney Channel show...maybe it should have been one.

This is the exact reason why I dropped Spider-Man for Deadpool. Spider-Man is beloved by people of all ages however that reduces the chance for a "serious" Spider-Man tale. I think the mistake is that homecoming was pretty much "Avengers Jr." and was kind of a joke as a result. It rode the coattails of Ironman (arguably MCU's most popular character) so Peter never really got to grow into his own so we never really seen "Spider-Man" as a result. We seen the Peter/Spider-Man from the ultimate Spider-Man cartoon and that's probably why, in my opinion, it did not resonate with older fans and definitely contributed to the box office drop. It felt like a kids movie because it is one and that's probably why I, and others, didn't like it. I will say Homecoming definitely reflects the times as the younger generation rely on their phone for everything just like peter relied on his suit for everything. Motivated less by "responsibility" and more so "popularity"

I personally would have enjoyed it MUCH more if in Civil War they introduced the Iron Spider suit with all the tech and peter gets comfortable with the technology at his disposal. He's recently graduated high school so he's trying to figure out "how to adult" and makes a mistake somehow that makes the Avengers look bad and Ironman takes the suit from Peter as a result (Maybe this is when the whole "Spider-Man is a menace" starts.) Peter then has to go back to basics with his original cloth suit. Relearn how to be a hero without all the conveniences of the Iron Spider tech. Peter struggles. The media paints him as a menace. Relationship drama. Life starts to suck. You know? "Parker luck" happens. Spider-man defeats whatever villain and then Ironman returns to offer the suit and a permanent spot on the team and Peter's all "Naw I'm good but if you need me you know where to find me" and classic swinging outro talking about "how it would be awesome to be an avenger but he would rather continuing to be the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man"

I'm no professional writer or anything but something like that can appeal both the kids and adults alike similar to how Spider-Man TAS appealed to kids and adults alike. That's just my opinion on it.

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#9 Posted by infantfinite128 (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

No, I think it was a big turn off. My family just tried to watch the film, and they shut if off after 10 minutes because they hated Peter. I just saw the movie, and I checked out before it was done.

None of the movies have gotten Peter down how I'd like, but I think the first two Raimi Spider-man movies did a really good job at presenting the character compared to most superhero adaptations. He wasn't as intelligent or quippy, but those movies had emotional weight.

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#10 Edited by deactivated-5a17443203429 (28 posts) - - Show Bio

How does the movie not have emotional weight? You have Peter who desperately wants to prove himself to Tony, and eventually he has the fight his crush's dad, who almost kills himself, only for Peter to save him. Then you have Peter grow up and turn down the offer to become an Avenger, to just do his own thing for a while.

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#11 Posted by g2_ (11974 posts) - - Show Bio

@infantfinite128: I understand what you're saying, but if your family didn't like Holland's Peter Parker, then they don't like Peter Parker. Holland was the perfect representation of the character.

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#12 Edited by infantfinite128 (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

@g2_: Someone who I really respect and is knowledgeable of the comics agrees with you. He said he liked it better than the comics.

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#13 Posted by g2_ (11974 posts) - - Show Bio

@g2_: Someone who I really respect and is knowledgeable of the comics agrees with you. He said he liked it better than the comics.

Now don't get me wrong, Tobey's Spidey has a special place in my heart, but Holland is just the best representation of Spider-Man.

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#14 Posted by Crazyspideyfan (175 posts) - - Show Bio

@g2_: I disagree. Peter is very mature in 616 when he is the same age as MCU, and he has a very different more serious personality compared to MCU, and is much less careless.

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#15 Posted by g2_ (11974 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by christianrapper (6402 posts) - - Show Bio

@g2_ said:

@crazyspideyfan: MCU is careless?

peter basically caused all of the problems in the movie except the climax. it was his fault the boat almost sank and it was his fault the elevator almost crashed. he spent the whole movie just cleaning up his own messes.

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#17 Posted by Wilkins17 (385 posts) - - Show Bio

Spiderman Homecoming is the best MCU movie so far only matched by Guradians of the Galaxy 1 & 2, and Captain Amarica: Cilver War.

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#18 Posted by g2_ (11974 posts) - - Show Bio

@christianrapper: No it wasn't, it was the Vulture's fault, he carried the weapon. The elevator was Ned's fault.

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#19 Posted by BJParks (592 posts) - - Show Bio

@g2_ said:

@christianrapper: No it wasn't, it was the Vulture's fault, he carried the weapon. The elevator was Ned's fault.

A good portion of this movie would not have existed if the characters acted a little more reasonably, e.g. Ned not listening, and Spidey not webbing Vulture's hands. Granted, there could have been other paths to these events, but some of the paths they chose made me cringe.

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#20 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17219 posts) - - Show Bio

"Come on Spider-Man" was a pretty good scene.

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#21 Posted by g2_ (11974 posts) - - Show Bio

@bjparks said:
@g2_ said:

@christianrapper: No it wasn't, it was the Vulture's fault, he carried the weapon. The elevator was Ned's fault.

A good portion of this movie would not have existed if the characters acted a little more reasonably, e.g. Ned not listening, and Spidey not webbing Vulture's hands. Granted, there could have been other paths to these events, but some of the paths they chose made me cringe.

Well, Spider-Man is still learning to be a hero.

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#22 Posted by BJParks (592 posts) - - Show Bio

@g2_ said:
@bjparks said:
@g2_ said:

@christianrapper: No it wasn't, it was the Vulture's fault, he carried the weapon. The elevator was Ned's fault.

A good portion of this movie would not have existed if the characters acted a little more reasonably, e.g. Ned not listening, and Spidey not webbing Vulture's hands. Granted, there could have been other paths to these events, but some of the paths they chose made me cringe.

Well, Spider-Man is still learning to be a hero.

Fair enough. I hope in future though that the script portrays Spidey at full capacity, as well as his villain. A lot of the lacking emotional weight I felt was due to these fairly reasonable, but almost completely avoidable situations (plus the anti-climactic ending).

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#23 Posted by g2_ (11974 posts) - - Show Bio

@bjparks: anti-climactic ending? How was that anti climactic?

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#24 Posted by magnetic_eye (1739 posts) - - Show Bio

"Spider-Man Homecoming" wasn't a genuine adaptation of 616 Spiderman at all. Everybody knows it was really a Miles Morales movie but with Peter Parker as the substitute lead. By all means, make a proper Miles Morales film, but a mature, sophisticated, melodramatic, action packed adult Spider-Man film is long overdue.

In the mainstream Amazing Spider-Man 616 continuity, Peter Parker has been a mature (not under Dan Slott) adult for forty plus years. All attempts to making a Spider-Man film have been a throwback to the High School years which only lasted for approximately fours years in the original comics.

IMO, Homecoming was a joke and the over the top comedy-centric MCU is becoming predictable and boring.

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#25 Posted by BJParks (592 posts) - - Show Bio

@g2_ said:

@bjparks: anti-climactic ending? How was that anti climactic?

I didn't realize it until I watched the movie a second time, but I felt like there wasn't enough action in the final fight scene. I was hoping that at the end Peter would lay Toomes out, but that didn't happen. That may be partially due to Tom's vision of not having Spider-Man throw any punches in this first movie, which I respect. But I would still have liked some more action.

"Spider-Man Homecoming" wasn't a genuine adaptation of 616 Spiderman at all. Everybody knows it was really a Miles Morales movie but with Peter Parker as the substitute lead. By all means, make a proper Miles Morales film, but a mature, sophisticated, melodramatic, action packed adult Spider-Man film is long overdue.

In the mainstream Amazing Spider-Man 616 continuity, Peter Parker has been a mature (not under Dan Slott) adult for forty plus years. All attempts to making a Spider-Man film have been a throwback to the High School years which only lasted for approximately fours years in the original comics.

IMO, Homecoming was a joke and the over the top comedy-centric MCU is becoming predictable and boring.

Honest question, what would a sequel have to do to win you over (considering he'll still be in high school)? Something like Spectacular Spider-Man?

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#26 Posted by g2_ (11974 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by magnetic_eye (1739 posts) - - Show Bio

@bjparks said:
@g2_ said:

@bjparks: anti-climactic ending? How was that anti climactic?

I didn't realize it until I watched the movie a second time, but I felt like there wasn't enough action in the final fight scene. I was hoping that at the end Peter would lay Toomes out, but that didn't happen. That may be partially due to Tom's vision of not having Spider-Man throw any punches in this first movie, which I respect. But I would still have liked some more action.

@magnetic_eye said:

"Spider-Man Homecoming" wasn't a genuine adaptation of 616 Spiderman at all. Everybody knows it was really a Miles Morales movie but with Peter Parker as the substitute lead. By all means, make a proper Miles Morales film, but a mature, sophisticated, melodramatic, action packed adult Spider-Man film is long overdue.

In the mainstream Amazing Spider-Man 616 continuity, Peter Parker has been a mature (not under Dan Slott) adult for forty plus years. All attempts to making a Spider-Man film have been a throwback to the High School years which only lasted for approximately fours years in the original comics.

IMO, Homecoming was a joke and the over the top comedy-centric MCU is becoming predictable and boring.

Honest question, what would a sequel have to do to win you over (considering he'll still be in high school)? Something like Spectacular Spider-Man?

Honestly, I get why the MCU are starting fresh with the High School years again, but as I said in my previous post, this only lasted a very short time in the original mainstream comic books, before Peter graduated and by the early 70's was a mature adult. The "Amazing Spider-Man" title popularized Peter Parker / Spider-Man for over forty years and is the one I grew up. That's the Peter Parker / Spider-Man I eventually would like to see on screen.

So the current throwback to the High School years is kind of baffling and annoying. In terms of animations I prefer Spider-Man - The Animated Series from the 90's.

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#28 Posted by BJParks (592 posts) - - Show Bio

@bjparks said:
@g2_ said:

@bjparks: anti-climactic ending? How was that anti climactic?

I didn't realize it until I watched the movie a second time, but I felt like there wasn't enough action in the final fight scene. I was hoping that at the end Peter would lay Toomes out, but that didn't happen. That may be partially due to Tom's vision of not having Spider-Man throw any punches in this first movie, which I respect. But I would still have liked some more action.

@magnetic_eye said:

"Spider-Man Homecoming" wasn't a genuine adaptation of 616 Spiderman at all. Everybody knows it was really a Miles Morales movie but with Peter Parker as the substitute lead. By all means, make a proper Miles Morales film, but a mature, sophisticated, melodramatic, action packed adult Spider-Man film is long overdue.

In the mainstream Amazing Spider-Man 616 continuity, Peter Parker has been a mature (not under Dan Slott) adult for forty plus years. All attempts to making a Spider-Man film have been a throwback to the High School years which only lasted for approximately fours years in the original comics.

IMO, Homecoming was a joke and the over the top comedy-centric MCU is becoming predictable and boring.

Honest question, what would a sequel have to do to win you over (considering he'll still be in high school)? Something like Spectacular Spider-Man?

Honestly, I get why the MCU are starting fresh with the High School years again, but as I said in my previous post, this only lasted a very short time in the original mainstream comic books, before Peter graduated and by the early 70's was a mature adult. The "Amazing Spider-Man" title popularized Peter Parker / Spider-Man for over forty years and is the one I grew up. That's the Peter Parker / Spider-Man I eventually would like to see on screen.

So the current throwback to the High School years is kind of baffling and annoying. In terms of animations I prefer Spider-Man - The Animated Series from the 90's.

Gotcha. Probably be a couple years until he graduates (maybe even a decade?) though. I hope we can get some really dark stories in that time.

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#29 Edited by The_Hajduk (6519 posts) - - Show Bio

It wasn't the overly dramatic soap opera that Lee and Ditko wrote (and I mean that in the most positive, complimentary way possible) but I didn't necessarily feel a deficiency of emotional weight. Overall it was fine, and the lifting scene is GOAT.

EDIT: Actually the Raimi movies nailed that overly dramatic soap opera tone. Fiege, Sony, and the director of homecoming deserve credit for not retreading that. It would have been very easy.

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#30 Edited by RogueDeWolff (602 posts) - - Show Bio

I have a feeling that Feige is going to skip on most of the emotional stories from Spidey's history. Demon in the Bottle and Tony's alcoholic problem - or the lack there of in Iron Man 2 - along with many changes in MCU movies to make the story more light-hearted and straying away from heavy subjects, just give me the sense that we're not going to see something like Kraven's Last Hunt, or Jean DeWolff's spoilerific storyline with the Sin Eater, Sins Past, and especially not The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man. I love that little story, but I just couldn't picture Feige putting something as on-the-nose as Spidey visiting a cancer kid in the MCU. It's too sappy, like Hajduk said, and would have probably been something you'd only find in Raimi's sappier movies.

I mean, how many weighty and "heavy" MCU movies can you count on one hand? Civil War, Winter Soldier, and Black Panther. The rest are chalked full of humor and comedy, even the ironically named Thor: The Dark World.

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#31 Posted by SpideyIvyDaredevilFan26 (7222 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact that this is even a question truly speaks to how much Homecoming butchered everything that made Spider-Man a great character.

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#32 Posted by njchrispatrick (327 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff: That's a big problem in the MCU. I had been a bit nervous to see their adaptation of Spider-Man and, seeing the result, I am even more nervous to see what they do with the X-Men and Fantastic Four. The FF could survive as a kid-friendly series, but the X-Men? Once I would've said it's impossible to do that but now it's happened to Spider-Man so....

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#33 Posted by Mike_Fowler (5174 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff: don’t see why the kid who collects spider man can’t be adapted

The very first scene of guardians of the galaxy has a young peter visit his cancer-ridden mother as he watched her breathe her last breath (and he refused to hold her hand in the end because of what he saw).

Honestly I think it’s just a case of waiting and seeing as this peter grows up

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#34 Edited by RogueDeWolff (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@mike_fowler said:

@roguedewolff: don’t see why the kid who collects spider man can’t be adapted

The very first scene of guardians of the galaxy has a young peter visit his cancer-ridden mother as he watched her breathe her last breath (and he refused to hold her hand in the end because of what he saw).

Oh yeah, you're right. I just felt that @the_hajduk had a point when he mentioned sappiness in Raimi's movies, but you're right about Guardians there. Maybe we could see that story after all.

@mike_fowler said:

@roguedewolff: Honestly I think it’s just a case of waiting and seeing as this peter grows up

Yeah, I know. There's no telling what might happen in 5 or 6 years, or even 10. Maybe after Tom Holland grow older, things might change in the MCU, along with X-Men movies after they are introduced to the universe. But as of now, I doubt we're going to see Kraven's Last Hunt any time soon. The content in that storyline is pretty disturbing for young audiences (a suicidal hunter with an existential crisis).

And I also highly doubt Logan is going to go all hack-and-slash the way he did in the "Logan" movie, or Deadpool for that matter with his crass methods - not unless all of them are Netflix'ed like The Punisher. That could be where the mutants might be heading next for all we know. But that's for another topic.

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#35 Edited by Mike_Fowler (5174 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff:

A) Bob Iger already said that they ain’t changing Deadpool. I feel like people underestimate Disney in regards to that. They owned Miramax around the time Pulp Fiction was made. Heck, they created Touchstone Pictures for the sole purpose of having more adult-oriented content

B) I wouldn’t expect to see Kraven’s last hunt anytime soon not because of the content, but because of the fact that it happened later on in his life. Give this peter a chance to grow into a full-grown man where he’ll have even more material to go off of.

Just gotta have a little bit of faith, we’ll see in the end.

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#36 Posted by njchrispatrick (327 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff: I am both excited and nervous to see how everything changes. I'd love to see Tom's Spidey get older and come into his own--as good as he was in Homecoming, I wish he hadn't been so sidekick-y--and I really hope they branch out more with him. Kraven would be fun to see, although I'm holding out hope for Mysterio. Honestly what I want most is for them to drop the "high-tech suit" angle, but I doubt that'll happen even after RDJ is gone.

I think the best thing Marvel can do--both with Spider-Man and now that they have their A-Listers back--is branch out from the Avengers. It'd be nice to have superhero groups with zero affiliation to them and who don't need to be connected like Spidey was.

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#37 Edited by RogueDeWolff (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@njchrispatrick said:

@roguedewolff: Honestly what I want most is for them to drop the "high-tech suit" angle, but I doubt that'll happen even after RDJ is gone.

Yeah, I really don't like the high-tech upgrade either - both in the comics and in the movies. Spidey isn't Iron Man (and vice versa; why are Tony -- and Dr. Strange for that matter -- wise-cracking with a snarky attitude like Spidey? That's his shtick), and the great thing about the webslinger is that he's always won his battles due to (largely) his skills alone. His powers might have helped, but more often than not, he relied on his instincts and judgement. He's one of the most intelligent Marvel characters, after all, standing shoulder to shoulder with the elites like Reed Richards, so a powered suit would just take away opportunities for him to flex his brain muscles or to show off his combat skills as a fighter using improvisation (like his first encounter with Sandman) or just his surroundings.

Backing up to the whole "Tony and Strange being snarky" annoyance, I hate how Spidey's sense of humor had to be altered into a more family-friendly type of humor because Tony and Strange are already snarky, so Spidey can't be snarky like he is in the comics. Three's a crowd. And if Mike Fowler is right about Deadpool not changing, that means everyone else will be snarky except for Spidey, whose humor came off as weird and awkward in Homecoming. It just didn't feel like Spidey's brand of comedy, where he often mocks his villains in the most insulting ways and infuriating them.

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#38 Posted by njchrispatrick (327 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff: That's it exactly. Although MCU die-hards will never admit it, Marvel Studies changed a lot about their characters when they first started the MCU--largely because they were largely unknown characters and they could. I honestly don't think they ever imagined how big the MCU would grow, or that eventually it would get back all its properties. Now they're suffering for that because, although few people care about Iron Man or Star-Lord getting upgrades, doing it to Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, or the X-Men will not go over well. And I honestly don't know if there is any way to fit those teams in without compromising them in some way.

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#39 Posted by RogueDeWolff (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff: That's it exactly. Although MCU die-hards will never admit it, Marvel Studies changed a lot about their characters when they first started the MCU--largely because they were largely unknown characters and they could. I honestly don't think they ever imagined how big the MCU would grow, or that eventually it would get back all its properties. Now they're suffering for that because, although few people care about Iron Man or Star-Lord getting upgrades, doing it to Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, or the X-Men will not go over well. And I honestly don't know if there is any way to fit those teams in without compromising them in some way.

I'm still bugged about Tony's alcoholism not being a significant subject in Iron Man 2, which was supposed to be based on the "Demon in the Bottle" arc where Tony has an alcoholic breakdown not unlike Robert Downey Jr.'s. Perhaps it hit too close to home for the actor, but that's something that could have been fixed with a different actor (or it could have been a nice opportunity for RDJ to face his demons, not to mention the increased PR). Maybe not, but I'm still bugged by this absence even after so many years. The Mandarin was the least of my annoyance.

As for compromising the newer characters yet to be integrated in the MCU, I expect that there will definitely be compromises, especially with the X-Men. I mean, how is Quicksilver going to fit? Nope, he isn't. And Magneto no longer has two children named Wanda and Pietro. That's a far bigger change than just Mandarin being some paid actor, or The Ancient One being white. That's literally wiping out the connection of three characters. What's next? Norman Osborn won't be Harry's dad? Gwen Stacy won't be Peter's girlfriend, and will be just some random classmate? How far will the compromises go to suit the convenience of Feige and the MCU? I think it's fair to say it's quite a troubling concern.

On the other hand, I think the Fantastic Four will largely stay the same. There might be superficial aesthetic changes like race and gender (maybe a female Human Torch for all we know) to pander to the whole "diversity" politics, but outside of that, I don't see much about the FF that can be changed since they (and their origin) are quite straightforward - a family of supers, emphasis on "family". Anything regarding Richards' aggressive wife-beater personality, however, is up for debate. I mean, Hank was supposed to be a wife-beater, but Michael Douglas (and Paul Rudd) turned out to be a gentleman. All controversial themes like that, forget about it. It's not gonna happen. It's Disney's Marvel now. No alcoholism, no domestic abuse. All family-friendly. Sigh.

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#40 Posted by njchrispatrick (327 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff: And that was only just after Disney bought Marvel, so I am not even sure how much hand they had in that. Now it is becoming downright painful.

The biggest problem is that the MCU currently revolves around the Avengers only, which has never been Marvel's theme. DC makes a lot of ties to the Justice League but Marvel tends to let groups like the X-Men and Fantastic Four and even the Defenders work pretty much solo. But I have a nagging feeling that the X-Men will end up as like some sort of subsidiary training group, like how Spider-Man had to be a junior Avenger and couldn't just be a new solo hero. Will they really let these other groups eclipse the Avengers or will they fight to keep the "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" on top even when all records say that both the FF and the X-Men blow them out of the water?

That is true. And I don't even expect any major changes to the FF given how badly the Johnny change went. Maybe Ben, since he ends up rock anyway. My problem isn't a race change, it is when they change the character as well and take away what made them special. The good thing is that the FF are already super family-friendly. I will just miss Fox's darker X-Universe; although it had a myriad of problems they really nailed the tone. Marvel will probably make the X-Men movies into light-hearted action with a small skimming of prejudice, not the hard-hitting violent racism present in the Fox movies and classic comics.

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#41 Posted by RogueDeWolff (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff: Marvel will probably make the X-Men movies into light-hearted action with a small skimming of prejudice, not the hard-hitting violent racism present in the Fox movies and classic comics.

I think they are going to lose a lot of audience if they do that. The "hard-hitting racism"? That's a core concept of the X-Men, of what their story is about - being prejudiced against because of how they look like. Chickening out of the subject matter isn't like dismissing Tony's alcoholic problem since prejudice and racism are major and significant characteristics of the X-Men stories. It's like toning down Punisher's murder-spree.

Then again, Marvel hasn't really disappointed to that kind of level so far. There were disappointments, but not to that level. I think they know how to handle the X-Men -- I want to trust that they do. I mean, Punisher and Daredevil turned out pretty well, even though they had to be Netflix'd. I don't really mind, actually, if X-Men gets Netflix'd too because of the subject matter. And besides, there were quite a few topics in MCU movies that were almost as heavy as racism (specifically Winter Soldier and Black Panther). I think they wouldn't call it outright "racism", but I don't think they would "skim" it either or tone down the prejudice. Black Panther especially makes me feel hopeful about the X-Men's future. I was utterly impressed by how many controversial points that movie touched on regarding tribalism and the current political climate.

@roguedewolff: The biggest problem is that the MCU currently revolves around the Avengers only, which has never been Marvel's theme. DC makes a lot of ties to the Justice League but Marvel tends to let groups like the X-Men and Fantastic Four and even the Defenders work pretty much solo. But I have a nagging feeling that the X-Men will end up as like some sort of subsidiary training group, like how Spider-Man had to be a junior Avenger and couldn't just be a new solo hero. Will they really let these other groups eclipse the Avengers or will they fight to keep the "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" on top even when all records say that both the FF and the X-Men blow them out of the water?

Yeah, it's gonna be weird, especially with how long mutants existed long before Avengers were a thing. I think they could pull something like "The First Avenger" with the X-Men though, like set up their past as a prelude to the main story. Captain Marvel will be set in the '90s anyway, so X-Men won't be the only one requiring some form of prelude. They can just say that the mutants have been in hiding for a long time or something, even when the Avengers announced themselves. If anyone's identity requires hiding, it's the mutants.

On a related note, I don't like how almost all of the heroes know Peter's identity now (especially when you see the clips and trailers of Infinity War). I mean, the Guardians of the Galaxy and Dr. Strange already know he's Peter now? Why? I could understand why Strange would've known anyway, but why the Guardians? I hope they don't pull another OMD in the MCU because they regret this decision later. lol

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#42 Posted by FantasyConnect (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff: Yeah, apart from the fact that Hank isn't supposed to be a wife beater.

It was a mistake on the artists part that stuck for decades.

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Is Spider-Man a wife beater for accidentally hitting Mary Jane now?

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#43 Edited by RogueDeWolff (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@fantasyconnect said:

@roguedewolff: Yeah, apart from the fact that Hank isn't supposed to be a wife beater.

It was a mistake on the artists part that stuck for decades.

Is Spider-Man a wife beater for accidentally hitting Mary Jane now?

Yeah, I read something about how it was a mistake. To be fair though, Peter hitting MJ wasn't made into such a big deal of the official lore -- Hank spraying Janet with bug spray coming to mind, and Cap beating Hank up for doing so. On the other hand, that was from the Ultimate version of Hank, so it might not matter (like Ultimate Cap being a dick and saying nasty stuff about Frenchies).

But that wasn't really the point I was trying to make though. Whether Hank is a wife beater or not, it's still a fact that important storylines that catered to the more mature subjects like Tony's alcoholism were being snuffed out. That's my point.

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#44 Edited by Mike_Fowler (5174 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff: eh, I wouldn’t really say that magneto and the twins is that much of a change, they initially STARTED as not being Magneto’s children until they were retconned (which is something I think a LOT of people forget)

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#45 Posted by RogueDeWolff (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@mike_fowler said:

@roguedewolff: eh, I wouldn’t really say that magneto and the twins is that much of a change, they initially STARTED as not being Magneto’s children until they were retconned (which is something I think a LOT of people forget)

Thanks for that info. That's pretty interesting.

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#46 Posted by Mike_Fowler (5174 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff:

Yeah, that’s why I didn’t really have much of a problem when they got retconned again to not being his kids while others did. They started off as being unrelated to him for a while before the retcon, so the movies (fox and marvel) doing both interpretations isn’t really a change.

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#47 Posted by RogueDeWolff (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@roguedewolff:

Yeah, that’s why I didn’t really have much of a problem when they got retconned again to not being his kids while others did. They started off as being unrelated to him for a while before the retcon, so the movies (fox and marvel) doing both interpretations isn’t really a change.

Was there any important plot development related to their father and children relationship, though? I haven't read X-Men, so my knowledge on them is a little thin.

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