The Sentry vs Molecule Man: Is he Multiversal?

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BlessedbyHorus

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#1  Edited By BlessedbyHorus
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I'm going to get A LOT of hate from this thread especially from someone I consider a friend on here, but as a devout Sentry fan I think I have to clear things up. Because honestly things are getting really chaotic for the Sentry. And I do not want the character I like a lot to be embedded in fan wanking. Yes I know this isn't technically a battle, but I really want a lot of people, especially those on the battle board to see this thread.

And yes I know there is already a thread similar to this already, BUT in this thread I will be giving a full analysis on WHY the Sentry is not multiversal; since Tom Brevoort gave a indirect answer and people are losing their heads about it. With this thread you will get a direct answer.

Anyways lets address the fight...

Sentry vs Molecule Man

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The fight has caused a lot of controversy. With many people labeling it PIS or coming up with their own theories. We do know the Sentry was killed twice by Molecule Man before realizing how to use his powers, when he does have Molecule Man on the ropes he has to ask Molecule Man to return everything back to normal, which shows the Sentry was a novice at using this type of power. So was the fight PIS? No, because there is a lot of forgotten context behind it. We'll get to that later.

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Like I said Tom gave a very vague answer(as always), but what he did say that was interesting is that transitive property should not be applied to super heros and I agree 100%. Because again there is a lot of context behind a fight. The Sentry beating Molecule Man should not be used as a benchmark to prove that he is multiversal.

But I'll give the people who argue for the Sentry being multiversal a bone...Here post-retcon Molecule Man fights Post-Retcon Beyonder and the two are obviously impacting the multiverse.

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I'll throw them a second bone, the Sentry's creator Paul Jenkin's did intend for the Sentry to have reality warping powers.

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And I'll give them a third bone with Tom yet again giving another vague answer about MM not being depowered....

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But King... All of this OBVIOUSLY proves that the Sentry is multiversal! No it doesn't... Tom said it was "regular" Molecule Man. He didn't answer if he was weakened or not weakened.

There is a BIG difference between being depowered and being weakened. Many writers state Molecule Man was not depowered, but they do not state he was not weakened. During Dark Avengers Molecule Man was weakened. But King HOW was he weakened? Seems like you're making stuff up! Well like the Sentry, Owen's powers revolve around the state of his mind!

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We know during arc of Dark Avengers that he was feeling lonely and what not.

Also we have to connect the dots because it is said when Molecule Man was imprisoned in the Raft(the SAMEstory under Bendis) that his mental state has fractured since then...

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But more importantly the Sentry was also in the Raft and it was stated, that the only reason he was staying there, was because he himself wanted to stay there. He could have broken out of he wanted to, because they were not capable of holding someone as powerful as him in there.

Now Molecule Man on the othe hand one would expect that a Molecule Man on multiversal level would EASILY be able of busting out of the Raft, no matter if he can affect organic molecules or not... But he only got out, when Electro destroyed the Raft and many metahumans managed to escape. Molecule Man was later defeated by the Sentry. The bio states his current power level was unknown since his break out. But people lets be reasonable... He obviously wasn't operating at this level...

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Conclusion

Even though the Sentry did not beat a Molecule Man at multiversal level, I still consider the feat of the Sentry beating Molecule Man impressive. Why? Owen was not only soleing the Hammer, Dark Avengers(Sentry included) and Molecule warped a whole city and people, but he created his own versions of the Beyonder, Zarathos, and other powerful beings. Sentry was the only one capable of beating him due to being immortal(he kept reforming) and having Molecule Manipulation abilities to defeat him only. And after the fight the destruction of his powers were compared to House of M Wanda(of COURSE HE IS NOT ON HER LEVEL and I can prove that). But again did the Sentry defeat a multiverse level Molecule Man? No.. Hell no... People of the Battleforums please stop acting like it was ever shown or stated that the Sentry is multiversal level. Stop acting like its surprising what Tom said.

But King where does a full potential Sentry stand??? That's a good question. The Sentry is an odd character. A very odd and complex character. Some people have him around Superman level or people much higher. Like I always said we havent seen the Sentry's full potential, we never have. But FOR NOW me personally(and his writer) have slightly above the Silver Surfer. There are good arguments(with supported evidence) that the Sentry using his full potential is a transcendence character like Thanos. Trans characters are pretty much more powerful than high heralds like Silver Surfer, but less powerful than skyfathers like Odin. Thanos for example is such a character and probably the prime example for the trans level tier. IMO Lord Mar-Vell from Thanos Imperative is a good example of what a full potential Sentry would look like. But do I believe the Sentry is really trans level? We need more feats, but there is good argument. But I do believe Deathseed Sentry is trans or at least close to it.

But we for sure know the Sentry is NOT multiversal level... Would Sentry beat Molecule Man again? That's for you to decide. :)

Note: I'll move this thread to the Sentry forums. Just want a lot of people to see this thread first to get the right idea...

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Khael

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Dark Avenger Molecule man is nowhere near Multiversal level, even Daken and Bullseye manage to resist his molecular manipulation so i don't understand why Sentry beat MM get overhyped

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Claymore1998

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Very nice write up as always , dear friend.

Keep up the good work

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TheDEMON!

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this thread solved everything

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BlessedbyHorus

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Luda12331

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One the Vine, you don't go by low showings. So it doesn't matter if a couple of people beat MM back in the day. Heck, he couldn't even control organic molecules back then.

Post-Retcon MM still has multiversal feats.

Sentry still beat this guy. He didn't just trick MM for a win (the the people Brevoot is talking about), he beat him by controlling his own molecules. A feat that no one else in all of Marvel has been able to match.

This is a massive feat on its own. Plus showing the durability to come back from MM's attack 3-4 times is an immensely feat on it's own.

Very high end feat.

However, Sentry is not multiversal.

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SirFizzWhizz

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The Sentry Wank is still strong, and all ABC logic rather feats.

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RealityWarper

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The regular Molecule Man is... regular.

regular

1. usual; normal; customary:

to put something in its regular place.

Molecule Man was normal = not weakened, not depowered.

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BlessedbyHorus

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One the Vine, you don't go by low showings. So it doesn't matter if a couple of people beat MM back in the day. Heck, he couldn't even control organic molecules back then.

Post-Retcon MM still has multiversal feats.

Sentry still beat this guy. He didn't just trick MM for a win (the the people Brevoot is talking about), he beat him by controlling his own molecules. A feat that no one else in all of Marvel has been able to match.

This is a massive feat on its own. Plus showing the durability to come back from MM's attack 3-4 times is an immensely feat on it's own.

Very high end feat.

However, Sentry is not multiversal.

Indeed. The bolded is especially true. I think what Brevoot means like I meant is that there is ALWAYS context behind a fight. And that this isn't DBZ where ABC logic(no offense to DBZ :P but their power levels kinda work like that!) is the deal.

So yes the Sentry beating Molecule Man is still a very good feat and adds to the characters resume. But wasn't a Nobel prize winning feat like Molecule Man being able to take on the Beyonder.

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BlessedbyHorus

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@sirfizzwhizz

Are you referring to me and my thread with that? I hope not.

@realitywarper

But his mental state like the Sentry's are apart of his "regular" power abilities. Which is what Tom most likely meant.

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Newblood2333

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Sentry beating MM, even Post Retcon MM, is a huge feat on it's own. Molecule Man losing to those people back in the day adds nothing to this argument.

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BullPR

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#13  Edited By BullPR

@king_stranglehold_da_first: I thought it would be another "hate thread". I was wrong.

@realitywarper: The discussion seems more mature here.

I agree with this analysis and with @luda12331 opinion.

I write again what I wrote in other threads:

-The fight against MM is a great feat, no denial, but not the definitive proof of Sentry being at a multiversal level

-Sentry should win against SS in character, not sure about a bloodlusted SS

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Cream_God

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#14  Edited By Cream_God

Fabio Mans divine buttery reality warping spread is omniversal

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PrinceAragorn1

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lol. The sad part is it actually needs two threads with support debunking the overestimation it caused.

If you don't jump on the hype wagon, there's no reason to throw the bones in the first place. Multiversal sentry is about as legit as loki's multiversal kaguya.

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RealityWarper

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@bullpr: That's because King is a good man. :)

@sirfizzwhizz

Are you referring to me and my thread with that? I hope not.

@realitywarper

But his mental state like the Sentry's are apart of his "regular" power abilities. Which is what Tom most likely meant.

Yep but all of his bios state that's only his mental inhibitions that affect his powers.

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BlessedbyHorus

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Also another thing refuting the myth that the Sentry operates at "multiveral level" is that(and I could be wrong) with multiversal beings there is ussually ONE BEING take the Phoenix Force, Living Tribunal, House of M Wanda, Chaos King, Pre-Retcon Beyonder, HoTu Thanos and hell god Doom I think. They are all multiversal level, but there is only ONE version of them overseeing the multiple universes. We do know there has been multiple versions of the Sentry/Void. Like the What If Void/Sentry.

If the Sentry/Void multiversal there wouldn't a version for them for each universe.

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BlessedbyHorus

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@realitywarper

Thanks! :)

This is just my opinion, but I believe there is zero proof that shows the Sentry is multiversal. I say we just be safe and bury that argument, because it does not for the character and make people hate him more. I just want people to take the character seriously because the character has suffered a lot due to people misunderstanding him and other things.

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RealityWarper

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@realitywarper

Thanks! :)

This is just my opinion, but I believe there is zero proof that shows the Sentry is multiversal. I say we just be safe and bury that argument, because it does not for the character and make people hate him more. I just want people to take the character seriously because the character has suffered a lot due to people misunderstanding him and other things.

You are welcome.

I don't fear the hate man.

The problem is that people wants ABSOLUTELY to see Molecule Man weakened / depowered even that's not the case.

My claim of Sentry being Multiversal is just because, as Sentry is untrained with his powers, he had no other mean than being in the same weight class than Owen Reece (or above).

That's why the clues that Bendis let all over the comics are here to make us understand that Sentry is THAT POWERFUL.

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Cpt_FacePuncher

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@king_stranglehold_da_first: There is another Scarlet Witch, though; she just had different powers levels during the House of M arc than usual. House of M Wanda isn't some other character, she's still 616 Wanda Maximmoff and there exists multiple versions of Wanda Maximmoff.

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BlessedbyHorus

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@realitywarper

But again if we connect the dots we do know that Molecule Man prior to Dark Avengers was not operating at multiversal level, especially when he was in the Raft.

And again we don't know the Sentry's true potential and so I think its a bold claim to state he is a multiverse level being without any significant evidence backing it up. The Sentry compared to many Marvel characters is fairly new and doesn't have many feats compared to most. I say we wait and see for more feats to see where he really stands. Maybe Paul Jenkin's will write him again. I mean he did say he wanted to do a third volume iirc.

@cpt_facepuncher

Could have sworn there was only one version of Wanda during that arc. Guess I was wrong.

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RealityWarper

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But again if we connect the dots we do know that Molecule Man prior to Dark Avengers was not operating at multiversal level, especially when he was in the Raft.

That was just after he tried to conquer Volcana again as he was dumped.

I guess that he simply let the SHIELD incarcerate him.

Don't forget that the bio from the New Avengers Most Wanted Files is written from the point of view of an Agent Of Shield.

The assessment are here to show that Owen was reticent to use his powers and that he was back at his normal state in Colorado, with no beliefs on his abilities as his talks contradicts the previous assessments.

And again we don't know the Sentry's true potential and so I think its a bold claim to state he is a multiverse level being without any significant evidence backing it up. The Sentry compared to many Marvel characters is fairly new and doesn't have many feats compared to most. I say we wait and see for more feats to see where he really stands. Maybe Paul Jenkin's will write him again. I mean he did say he wanted to do a third volume iirc.

Yep.

But there is no way he beat this Owen Reece without being at least as powerful as him.

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BlessedbyHorus

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@realitywarper:

That was just after he tried to conquer Volcana again as he was dumped.

I guess that he simply let the SHIELD incarcerate him.

Don't forget that the bio from the New Avengers Most Wanted Files is written from the point of view of an Agent Of Shield.

The assessment are here to show that Owen was reticent to use his powers and that he was back at his normal state in Colorado, with no beliefs on his abilities as his talks contradicts the previous assessments.

Yet this doesn't dismiss the fact that his mental state impacts his powers and the Shield even states such.

Yep.

But there is no way he beat this Owen Reece without being at least as powerful as him.

Again his powers waver just like the Sentry's due to it being linked to his mental state. We have no evidence that the Sentry was taking on the Molecule Man that fought the Beyonder in a fight that effected the Multiverse. But more importantly we see hints of Molecule Man being mentally unstable during the Dark Avengers arc. His mind was playing tricks on him. Molecule Man created his versions of the Beyonder, Dormammu, Mephisto, etc , who were all giving him adviceon what to do.

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Doesn't sound like someone who is sane to me. Doesn't look like the Molecule Man that fought the Beyonder...

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GrandSymbiote94

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Irrelevant post here. Does anyone think a cool name for Sentry Fandom would be "The Exploding Sons"? I think it's cool. :D

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mysticmedivh

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Irrelevant post here. Does anyone think a cool name for Sentry Fandom would be "The Exploding Sons"? I think it's cool. :D

Not gonna lie here. I laughed.

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BlessedbyHorus

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Irrelevant post here. Does anyone think a cool name for Sentry Fandom would be "The Exploding Sons"? I think it's cool. :D

This is for serious discussions. Don't ruin it. Please.

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GrandSymbiote94

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@king_stranglehold_da_first: You're just jealous because you didn't think of it first. :P...

Seriously though I apologize and I'll stop.

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BlessedbyHorus

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EmperorxHadesx420

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Sentry is a beast and does beast things.Beating MM at his own game says Sentry is multiversal and can stop anyone below Herald Level.

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lettsplay10

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mmmhhh

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Newblood2333

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Sentry is either at Skyfather level, or Cosmic Cube IMO. More so Skyfather though.

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BlessedbyHorus

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Sentry is either at Skyfather level, or Cosmic Cube IMO. More so Skyfather though.

Do you have proof?

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LoveLessNHK

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Irrelevant post here. Does anyone think a cool name for Sentry Fandom would be "The Exploding Sons"? I think it's cool. :D

I really, really do.

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Newblood2333

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@newblood2333 said:

Sentry is either at Skyfather level, or Cosmic Cube IMO. More so Skyfather though.

Do you have proof?

I am and always have been a big Sentry fan, so alot of my posts might be a little biased towards him. I just wanted to put that out there. However, there are some instances where Sentry has shined.

Of course, he beat MM, who does have some Multiversal feats. At the very least though, MM is Cosmic Cube level. Even CC level beings have shown Multiversal feats.

He has contained a Cosmic Cube before.

Absorbing Man wasn't able to absorb the Sentrys powers without exploding. However, this Absorbing Man was able to absorb a Cosmic Cube once, and all of Asgard (including Odin's powers) a different time.

Super Adaptoid was over powered by The Sentry's powers (mainly due to the Void). However, this same Super Adaptoid was able to absorb Kubik (a Cosmic Cube being) just fine.

He wiped his existance out of the minds of billions and billions of people, twice. He did it once with a machine and another time under his own powers.These people included the strongest telepaths like Xavier, Emma Frost, etc.

He has casually walked through Doom's shields, the same shield that lasted a little bit against the Infinity Gauntlet.

Just a memory of the Void was beating Marvel earth (Avenger, X-Men, Inhumans including Black Bolt, Fantastic Four, Dr. Strange, Namor, Spiderman, and Shield, combined.

Plus, to me, he has better feats than any Skyfather, besides Odin. King Thor and Zeus are inferior to him IMO.

Loki himself has called him "All-Powerful" which is a term Asgardians use for Odin.

Strange admitted to seeing a future where the Sentry/Void caused the destruction of the universe. He even said that he fears the Void more than God, himself.

His immortality is on a whole different level than most people in Marvel. Bringing himself back from dead, instantly, three times, against the MM, was just insane.

Plus the Void has never been solo'd in all of his existance, and the only times he does lose is by the Sentry himself.

So these are just a few things that popped into my head.

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Chazz85

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Iam not gonna lie i think the battle fourms is actually in need of banning of certain characters. Like right now you just proved sentry ain't multiversal and at best be on thanos level. Yet theres many,many people saying otherwise it's like kaguya multiversal by statements alone.

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Noone301994

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Tom didn't help at all in his answer...

"The Fantastic Four, Iron Man, and Man-Thing beat him once too! That doesn't make them reality warpers does it??"

It's not exactly the same... None of them used their own natural power set to manipulate molecules and overpower Owen with said power like the Sentry did...

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RealityWarper

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Yet this doesn't dismiss the fact that his mental state impacts his powers and the Shield even states such.

Only if he chosen not to use his powers like he did just before the retcon against Dr Doom;

This Molecule Man just didn't want to fight the SHIELD.

At least the writer just needed that to put him at the place he wanted.


Again his powers waver just like the Sentry's due to it being linked to his mental state. We have no evidence that the Sentry was taking on the Molecule Man that fought the Beyonder in a fight that effected the Multiverse. But more importantly we see hints of Molecule Man being mentally unstable during the Dark Avengers arc. His mind was playing tricks on him. Molecule Man created his versions of the Beyonder, Dormammu, Mephisto, etc , who were all giving him adviceon what to do.

Molecule Man had some identity problems and met Doc Samson to fix that.

The Molecule Man who fought Beyonder (above Cosmic Cube but less powerful) :

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

1) Beat The Beyonder after a long fight.

2 & 3) Kubik state that the crazy Molecule Man is more powerful than him and why.

The Molecule Man who fought The Sentry (above his crazy self)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

1) MM explains that he let his crazy side sort out in a moment of weakness and that he is part of his subconcious again.

2)Kubik explains that the sane Molecule Man is more powerful than the crazy one.

"It was always your will, your moral center, from wich the limitations on your evil self sprang"

I let you look at ALL the dialogues as everything is important.

Kubik say that the sane Molecule Man owns the true power, etc...

3) Molecule Man say that even if he is omnipotent is heart can be broken :

Heartbroken Molecule Man

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So as we established previously here : we have the heartbroken Molecule Man in control as he felt bad because Volcana dumped him and tried to fight his new loneliness by creating constructs of friends.

Doesn't sound like someone who is sane to me. Doesn't look like the Molecule Man that fought the Beyonder...

That's more the Molecule Man in control himself but in a depressed mood.

By the way THIS Molecule Man is more powerful than the one who fight the Beyonder.

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sentry4

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As far as I'm concerned, this feat only shows two things. That Sentry has extreme control of his molecules, and the molecules of one other person. Defeating MM by manipulating his molecules speaks to the potency of his manipulation, which is shown to be above whatever MMs was at the time. How strong of a warper somebody is can only really be shown by going against another warper, so imo THE DEBATE CONTINUES!!!

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BlueHope

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I just don't get it how Thor could hold his own against him if Sentry have overpowered Molecule Man and split Ares in half with his bare hands easily in the same story

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LoveLessNHK

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So, I like The Sentry, and I've only grown more and more enamored with him as I've learned about him. Question is, do I like him enough to fork over almost 200 dollars to purchase all (a lot?) of the comics he's appeared in from Ebay?

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DeathpooltheT1000

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Cena takes both of them down.
Cena takes both of them down.

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MasterKungFu

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idk if he's multiversal or not but his matter manipulation is stronger than molecule man's.

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AgentofChaos1

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Agreed

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MaZeRaIII

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#44  Edited By MaZeRaIII

@bluehope said:

I just don't get it how Thor could hold his own against him if Sentry have overpowered Molecule Man and split Ares in half with his bare hands easily in the same story

Thor didn't,Bendis in interview said that Sentry allowed himself to be killed by Thor.
And if you read Uncanny Avengers,Sentry curbstomped Thor two times.

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RealityWarper

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@sentry4 said:

As far as I'm concerned, this feat only shows two things. That Sentry has extreme control of his molecules, and the molecules of one other person. Defeating MM by manipulating his molecules speaks to the potency of his manipulation, which is shown to be above whatever MMs was at the time. How strong of a warper somebody is can only really be shown by going against another warper, so imo THE DEBATE CONTINUES!!!

1) Bendis implied in an interview it wasn't Molecule Manipulation.

2) The RAW power of Molecule Man allows him to affect the Multiverse.

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BlueHope

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@bluehope said:

I just don't get it how Thor could hold his own against him if Sentry have overpowered Molecule Man and split Ares in half with his bare hands easily in the same story

Thor didn't,Bendis in interview said that Sentry allowed himself to be killed by Thor.

And if you read Uncanny Avengers,Sentry curbstomped Thor two times.

oh ok thanks,I get it now

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Eternal_Night71

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#48  Edited By Eternal_Night71

Sentry is not Universal or Multiversal level, not even close, and he does not operate at those levels

Sentry beating molecule man was PIS, that does not mean Sentry is Universal or Multiversal

Spiderman has beaten Firelord who is a planet buster and planetary level, does that mean Spiderman is also planetary level ?

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Eternal_Night71

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Also the Sentry multiversal wank has been debunked, from the words of his writer

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BlessedbyHorus

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Also the Sentry multiversal wank has been debunked, from the words of his writer

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1. I already posted that.

2. That's not his writer...

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