Batman: Endgame is half way over. We’re now in the second part or the arc. The Joker has returned and isn’t too happy with Batman. With some big developments so far and revelations as to what Joker knows, Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo are pulling out all the stops with this arc.

We spoke with Snyder about the story and the new status quo between Batman and Joker. With a two-month break happening during Convergence, we even get some hints as to what’s coming after Endgame.

There may be some tiny spoilers for BATMAN #38.

COMIC VINE: So Joker knows Batman’s identity now?

SCOTT SNYDER: He does. He knows it, so it’s only going to go downhill from here. For Bruce, I mean. It really is something where we wanted to make this story feel like there is nothing off limits. We’re not leaving a thing off the table. I want this to be the story, for me, that I’m like, anyone else is free to use the Joker at any point, should he survive. Ultimately this has to be the last time I use him. That means, nothing is sacred without doing anything to the character that’s disrespectful. There isn’t anything that I’ll leave this story thinking, “I wish I tried that,” or “I was afraid to try that.”

CV: How does Batman remain so calm about it. Is this something he’s prepared for even though he figured years ago Joker didn’t know or care?

SS: You’ll see him start to crack at the end where he’s like, “It can’t end this way,” in this issue. Next issue and the issue after, he really starts to let it get to him. Not only does Joker know his identity but what I think Bruce focuses on, as a way of sort of blocking that out, is the larger issue that everyone in the city is going to die in less than 24 hours if he doesn’t do something. For him, it’s almost a way of deflecting the problem that Joker knows who he is because, there is a bigger problem. That bigger problem is saving the city, as it always is for him. He hasn’t really even had time to process it. He’s so focused on saving everybody so it’s a way for me to really kick it down the field until it really comes to bear when the two come face to face.

CV: Is there any chance that all of this isn’t really happening? Maybe a fear toxin or something has been released on everyone?

SS: [laughs] There’s absolutely no chance of that. 100%, I can tell you unequivocally everything is real and is happening. It’s just a really bad day for them. It is not a dream in any way.

CV: Last issue the scene between Joker and Jim was pretty scary. What’s your process is writing a scene like that to make it really creepy for readers?

SS: For me, the thing with the Joker that’s so scary about him is he reads you very quickly. He’s someone who is not crazy, he’s just evil. His madness is almost an excuse for him to get to do the evil things he wants. Meaning, it’s fine if people think he’s crazy. It’s almost a guise he wears, in my opinion. It’s a way for him to be able to do the horrible things he does where if he wasn’t actually crazy, people would say, “That guy is so crazy,” because they don’t want to admit that there’s somebody that evil. That is him. He knows he’s evil and he’s not pretending to be crazy. He just is who he is.

The key to make him really terrifying is getting him in close in your life where he looks at you, and you’re alone with him, and suddenly it’s not the hoopla and the pageantry of the Joker. It’s not this person with absolutely no empathy and nothing in their eyes but evil glee looking at you saying, “I am now going to dismantle you.” And not just kill you because he could pull out his big bang gun and just kill you whenever he wants. He wants to hurt you in a way where everything you believe gets destroyed before he does that. Then he laughs as he’s taking you down.

He’s really in a lot of ways, for me, a devil figure. That’s the way I like to think of him and that’s part of the scary thing here. He’s saying to Batman, “Not only do I know who you are, but you don’t know me. I know you but you don’t know me and you’ve never known me. I’m much older than you thought I was and I’m a bigger figure in Gotham than you ever imagined.

CV: What about the scene with Joker swimming? Even that was creepy.

SS: Yes. I think that’s actually my favorite page in the issue. I was like, “Greg. Old-timey bathing suit, please.” I sent him pictures of the Coney Island bathing suits, like the ones with the stripes. It’s because when you don’t know what he’s up to, and he’s coming at you, it’s so scary. With Death of the Family, even though he surprised Batman with his return, there was a real sort of sense of leading Batman by the nose saying, “This is where you need to go to next.” In this one, he doesn’t care if you figure out what he’s doing. He’s coming at you from all angles. He has nothing left, in terms of affection or in terms of friendship or mercy in this. The whole point here is to make Joker scarier and to make him colder. So a page like that where he’s swimming and you have no idea where he’s going or what he’s doing, that’s why it’s perfect for this story and also unsettling in a new way.

CV: What made you decided to use Paul Dekker?

SS: Every time I ask people, at a con or somewhere, what villa would you like to see? There’s a big contingent that names these super Z-listers like Condiment King. But Crazy Quilt comes up over and over. Everybody’s like, “Crazy Quilt!”

Part of it was just the fun of using him. But the thing is, what I want to make really clear with this story is as grim as it is, and it is, this story is about the death of Batman and the Joker in a big way. It’s the end of that relationship as far as I will write it so it has humongous consequences at the end. It has a huge effect on the status quo. I mean, I won’t mince words about that, it’s not about a death or something like that. It’s about changing the landscape in this story so it really ends things and burns certain things down and starts something new afterwards.

So it has this gravitas but the thing I want to make clear is, it’s also fun. Death of the Family was really dark and very very horror driven. This story has lots of scares but I want it to have a sort of celebratory quality and a zaniness that I wasn’t able to do in that story because it was so grim. This is one is like Joker’s birthday. The way it went from Batman’s birthday to Joker’s birthday in this last year from 2014 to 2015, it’s the 75th birthday of the Joker. It’s almost a birthday party kind of nuttiness.

Using a character like Crazy Quilt, that scene is deeply serious and important. I wrote him so he’s all about this quilt of life and this stitching that he invented that made him one of the three doctors, the Doctors Three, which has kind of the ring of the Three Fates in the sense of the sisters, the three witches. I wrote him making an unnatural kind of medicine. Crazy Quilt was perfect for that because stitching has this Frankenstein-ian quality. He even looks a little bit like Vincent Price in the old days. I told Greg, “Don’t make him look too much like Vincent Price so that it’s super Vincent Price,” but that was kind of what I wanted. I wanted this old movie kind of quality where this guy stitches flesh together and it stays. It heals in ways it shouldn’t. Batman deeply believes he created something Joker could use for this virus and to pretend he’s ancient and immortal. Instead, what Crazy Quilt tells him is, “No. I didn’t give it to him. He had it when I met him. I got it from him.” So he even deepens the nightmare in that way. He was a lot of fun to use. I like being like, when people challenge me that stuff. They’re like, “Can you reinvent this character,” and they think you never will. I’m like, “Alright, I’ll see you and raise.”

CV: Joker wants to make Batman suffer. Is the worst still to come?

SS: Oh, 100%. This issue, to me, was almost like the “calm before the storm” issue even though there’s a tank and it’s shooting at Batman. It’s not that calm but, that said, the next issue is so out of control…I’m not hyping it. It just is. It’s everybody…everybody’s a part of it. It gets completely nutty. It’s the beginning of the end. Issue 6, meaning issue 40, is a thirty page, me and Greg, kind of over the top finale that will really really end on a note that, I think, people will be talking about and, ultimately, when we come back in June, after Convergence, we’ll have some very big surprises.

Here’s the thing, dude. Bottom line, with the fans, they might love the idea or they might hate the idea of the direction in which we’re headed with Endgame. Honestly, I love it. For me, I got so energized with the story, and Greg is too. I’m pretty sure the exuberance reads on the page. If you count DETECTIVE COMICS [pre-New 52], I started DETECTIVE in 2010, I’m entering my sixth year in Gotham. If I don’t try stuff and no one’s tried that in 75 years and I just thought of something so crazy it shouldn’t work, but I think I can make it work in a way that’s really personal, if I don’t do those things then I might as well just get off the book. What’s the point?

It’s become an internal joke actually at DC. After every story since Court of Owls, I was like, “I think I’m just going to do some small mysteries after this.” Just take it down a notch and do some small mysteries and I do want to do those at some point. Every time I get there I get an idea and I know the idea like for Death of the Family as part one of a two-part Joker story, like this, or Zero Year, I’m like, “If I don’t try that, I might never get the chance.” It’s a bigger, more personal idea than doing those small things. This thing, this story, Endgame, is exactly that and the thing it leads to and creates is doubly so. Doubly so out there. You’ve got to try it if you think of it.

I’m very excited. It’s very nutty.

How will Endgame end? What could be so nutty about what's next? We'll obviously have to keep reading. BATMAN #38 is on sale now.

I've yet to start reading this arc yet. Is there any explanation as to how the Joker got his face put back on?

@shazam117: If it's dealt with, it's probably going to come up at the end... right now the big thing appears to be if the Joker is immortal or not.

I dont really like all snyder stories in new 52(unchained and court of owls included) ,but after i red First part of this 'endgame', i started to like it

Thank goodness this is a real event. when some users suggested this was fear-toxin induced nightmare for Batman i got worried. im also glad to know that the series will continue after Convergence cause im hoping Endgame will leave an impact on Batman that is felt for a long time.

Hmmm....interesting..

I've heard that being discussed by a few. I suppose his face and "immortality" is all connected and to be unveiled at the arcs climax or end.

@shazam117: yes, and if you read previous issues, including the second annual there is a twist to it.

I never grabbed the 2nd Annual, I'll have to check it out...thanks

@vandinejd_1991: That's why I asked. I didn't think he'd go that route but after seeing a couple people suggest or complain about that, I figured, why not get confirmation if he'd answer?

This story arc is overrated. It's not even as good as people are trying to make it out to be.

More big, crazy arcs please Scott!

If only he'd leave that bit about the League out of it, it would have been fine. Now we have to imagine you can counter the most powerful characters on DC earth by visiting ebay or amazon.

What issue does this arc start on?

I love Snyders writing of Batman, but in my opinion....nobody does a better job of creating hype about his book than himself.

He tends to say the same things about the storylines about holding nothing back, game changing stuff, blow your mind etc etc.....and when I finish reading the arcs....I'm usually slightly let down.

I love his writing, and haven't enjoyed Batman this much in years.....but the arcs tend to be anitclimatic for me.

The only good part of this arc so far was giving Batman feats to show how he can stand up against the league.

The nonsense with Joker being immortal or supernatural in some way isn't interesting to me, and I really wish he would leave the character alone.

I am actually a fan of Snyder's recent Batman work, up until the latest Year 0 stuff, however I have not purchased a single piece of material with his name on it, since San Diego Comic Con 2014, where he stood up a bunch of fans who waited for hours to see him, for not 1, but 2 scheduled sessions. You can then imagine my dismay when I read a tweet from a guy who was sitting in a bar having drinks with him at the time he left his fans holding the bag with no notice. For that you suck Mr. Snyder. You truly suck. There were people who waited for hours for the guy to show up and I recall one fan who only had a single day ticket and his only goal was to meet Snyder to autograph his copy of American Vampire. The poor fellow actually went out and bought like $100 worth of Snyder merch for him to sign only for him to not show up.

@muyjingo: That was the most boring part to me, I mean come on. A lasso of lies? Mini red suns? Kryptonite gum?

How does batman even know about the lasso of lies without wonder woman knowing.

And wasn't all kryptonite except that 1 Firestorm made for SHADE destroyed during Forever Evil?

It's called being the World's Greatest Detective. Guy's a genius and thinks about things that most others wouldn't. It's not anything new or surprising.

Beyond all that, is it really so hard to believe there might be an item in the DCU to counter the Lasso? If you and I can think of that possibility, certainly Batman can. Then it's simply a matter of Batman doing what he does best - using logic, deduction, and a wealth of resources to find out where this item might be kept. Again, not that far-fetched.

@farkam: Issue#35

@2cool4fun: Warning for language. No swearing.

@2cool4fun: It's wasnt particulary well done, but I still found it better than Snyder's wasting time keeping people guessing if the Joker is something other than Human. He likely isn't, since it's just too big a departure fro the character, making the journey to find the answer a waste of time (in my eyes). Of course, if he does turn out to be supernatural than Snyder has just shown he doesn't understand the characters, to resort to something lame like that.

I'll admit there were some good parts, I liked Joker playing with an identity and Snyder is good at writing Joker at being creepy, but all in all this seems like it's going to be a forgettable arc. The only way it isn't will be due to Snyder's attempt to permanently change continuity in some way, something he tends to do in all of his stories. It always feels contrived to me, a crutch if you will.

Can anyone clarify? Issue 38 page 1- "barely anything older than 50 years remains standing." & "Every building is more than 200 years old." Those two statements about the oldest part of Gotham City are contradictory. Am I reading it right?

@supe78: I think Snyder was stating the Lower East Side has barely any buildings older than 50 years aside from Foundry Square, a neighborhood in the Lower East Side, where the people protected the historic buildings/landmarks.

@mrshway88: thanks for that. I seriously read and re-read that page 100 times and couldn't figure it out. PS- how great is the last page?

I'm loving this arc so far!

That page with joker swimming was probably the creepiest thing I've seen in a long while. Its so random!

@muyjingo: Fair enough.

Yep!

Also immensely boring

@jonny_anonymous: I thought it was kind of clever. But to each his own.

So far, from the last few interviews of Snyder, he hasn't disappointed me even slightly. I really hope he contines with the great work and that the conclusion of the story isn't as mediocre and disappointing as Death of the Family. I hope for the best to come out from this story!

I'm absolutely loving the arc but do we need an interview for each issue? There's no point asking him about the future because I'm sure you'll just so happen to catch up with him again next month. Seems redundant.

@omnicrono: Okay I'm gonna try and be expressive again, since I wrote a reply already but thanks to CV it got deleted when I wanted to edit it >________>

1. He's a detective and not a mystical artifacts/treasure hunter. This is a completely different kind of search that goes over to legends and mythical books.

2. I find it very hard to believe that no one in the DC universe except Batman knew about this, especially Wonder Woman. And what I find even harder to believe is that he found & took it so easily. Shouldn't it be hidden in some magical place where no human would find it, and then protected by mystical beings? I mean there is no way the gods we know from WW's series would make such a powerful item and just leave it unguarded.

3. Geoff Johns made it clear that Bats had no plan for WW if she went rogue, and that Superman was his only option. And that was probably a plot line that would matter later on. Snyder basically just pissed on all of that & pulled some magic thingy out of his ass.

Also I just didn't like this fight in general, they could have used any other people Batman associates with for "friend turns foe" metaphor. I mean this fight was basically pointless bat-wanking so that Bruce can have more feats. At this point it's like the fight never even happened, as Batman is only worried about saving the city, not even thinking about his JL friends, So yeah in my opinion it was as pointless as that time when Lobdel made Superman bench press the earth for 5 days, and then forgot about it 3 pages later.

Also, how the did joker even jokerize them? Let alone get in contact with WW, Sups, the fastest man in the world & the king of the sea.

@jonny_anonymous: hmm?

I agree with a lot of things said here, and I hope that they will eventually be addressed but honestly....F*ck Johns's continuity with Batman, he doesn't get the character. There is no way in hell Batman wouldn't have some plan for Wonder Woman, I read the issue and it annoyed the sh*t out of me when he said that Superman was his contingency plan.

@_nox_: Why did that annoy you? Batman obviously used everyone's weaknesses as his plan. And WW was the only one of them that does not have a weakness, at least not anymore.

Cause that 40's weakness of losing powers when she is tied up was quite stupid.

Johns doesn't get Batman. Those plans were exceptionally idiotic. His plan for Hal was using an uncharged ring which he didn't have any experience with, a mother box for Cyborg he didn't know how to use and his "contingency" for a rogue WW was Superman, seriously? You really think those are better than what Snyder did?
And what's so far fetched about one of the smartest people in the DC Universe making a super powered suit or finding out about a mystical artifact?
I personally thought the way he took out Diana was smart. If someone should be complaining, it should be Aquaman fans.

@2cool4fun:

"He's a detective and not a mystical artifacts/treasure hunter. This is a completely different kind of search that goes over to legends and mythical books."

Yes, because logic and deduction, not to mention the abilities to research and find things (all things detectives do), do not apply when it's a "mystical artifact." Sure thing. Seriously though, Batman is now somehow incapable of researching legends and mythical books? Where did you get that idea?

"I find it very hard to believe that no one in the DC universe except Batman knew about this, especially Wonder Woman. And what I find even harder to believe is that he found & took it so easily. Shouldn't it be hidden in some magical place where no human would find it, and then protected by mystical beings? I mean there is no way the gods we know from WW's series would make such a powerful item and just leave it unguarded."

How do you know that no one else in the DCU knew about it? I'm not sure why you are operating under the presumption that every mystical/ancient artifact is supposed to be hidden in a magical place where no human can find it and mystical beings protect it. Look, fact is that sometimes a lack of knowledge about something is all the protection it needs. Sometimes the value of a great artifact goes completely unrecognized, even by avid collectors, simply because they aren't trained enough or studied enough to recognize the value in it, or simply because they didn't think such an item could possibly exist to begin with.

"Geoff Johns made it clear that Bats had no plan for WW if she went rogue, and that Superman was his only option. And that was probably a plot line that would matter later on. Snyder basically just pissed on all of that..."

Geoff Johns made it clear, did he? Oh my goodness gracious... Look, besides the fact that Johns' own "contingency plans" for the League were about as unimaginative as they come... seriously, his masterstroke answer to Wonder Woman was "Go get Superman" (lol... what if he's off planet, or busy helping out somewhere else, or has also gone rogue?)... this is also the same man who generally has had very literal regard for Batman as a character since the New 52 started and often writes him as some half-witted Mr. Magoo. Snyder didn't disregard anything where Johns' plans for Diana were concerned. Why? Because there was nothing to disregard. Johns literally had nothing... just an empty box... because he wouldn't be bothered to think of anything more creative at the time. And we've had absolutely no indication whatsoever from Johns', whether by means of personal interview or from within the pages of his Justice League book, that he was intentionally setting something up for later.

...........................................

As for exactly how Joker's new virus was able to affect characters like Superman and Wonder Woman... I would like to know that too. Endgame isn't over yet though. Still two issues to go.

Lots of Snyder interviews....
You sure are friendly with the man.

I enjoy this arc much more than I thought I would. Each issue brings some moment that leave me perplexed. I think the thing that makes the Joker such a great character is that he is so multi-sided and complex that every writer can completely give his own spin on him. Snyder has done exactly that and while it is by far not my favorite Joker interpretation or story (I prefer crazy Joker who can be funny and portrays chaos opposed to Batman's order to Snyder's pure evil and immortal version) I do like it. I also like how Snyder gives you his take but then sort of gives you a way out if you don't like what he's saying - e.g. Red Hood may NOT be the Joker and the historical Joker pictures MAY be tempered with.

@shazam117: Yes, it has already sort of explained it among all the other explanations and action. The reason for his immortality would restore his face very easily. He simply grew it back.