The Flash #5 - The Flash

Its undeniable that the art in the Flash has been top notch, the layouts are especially mind blowing. But I havent really been into the stories. But with this issue I really liked it all the way around. Maybe its because Mob Rule is on his way out (for now) and we got so much focus on other more interesting characters. Really liked the ending as well. Anxious to see what comes of this mess.

Can't wait to see the redesigns of the rogues in the next arc.

Manuel and Mob Rule were more interesting than Barry Allen by far.

Bring back Wally.

Flash is a fun book amongst all the other more serious and darker books from DC. I keep it on my list for the awesome art and promises of great future stories.

@fodigg said:

Manuel and Mob Rule were more interesting than Barry Allen by far.

Bring back Wally.

Very excited to see the rogues next arc, especially with the amount of stuff Captain Cold has frozen.

@fodigg: Dude. No. Truth is, I grew up preferring Wally because he was on the Justice League TV show, but honestly, this run (and Geoff Johns' before this one) have completely changed my mind. I think Barry has several qualities that make him a more interesting character than Wally. Wally likes to joke and throw out one-liners, but IMO that makes just like a Spider-Man clone. I used to like that immaturity in the character, but honestly, its grown a little old. Barry is more mature and grounded and the thing is, his personality seems to be out-of-sync with his powers. He's careful and meticulous while his powers seem to demand speed. While many see that as a flaw, I praise it as a virtue. It makes him more interesting and defines him as someone outside of his abilities.

Also, Barry's powers could be seen as a metaphor for him finally moving forward after running in place for so long, being stuck in the past investigating his mom's murder. I love that about the character. Also, you already have the immature flyboy attitude in Hal Jordan, so to have Wally West instead of Barry Allen on the League would just be character redundancy. And before anybody says I'm bashing Hal Jordan, I have to say, I'm the biggest Hal Jordan fan out there. I love that fact that his hatred of being restrained or confined makes him come into conflict with authority. And as a member of an intergalactic, paramilitary organization under the authority of the Guardians, that makes for some great stories.

@Zeeguy91 said:

@fodigg: Dude. No. Truth is, I grew up preferring Wally because he was on the Justice League TV show, but honestly, this run (and Geoff Johns' before this one) have completely changed my mind. I think Barry has several qualities that make him a more interesting character than Wally. Wally likes to joke and throw out one-liners, but IMO that makes just like a Spider-Man clone. I used to like that immaturity in the character, but honestly, its grown a little old. Barry is more mature and grounded and the thing is, his personality seems to be out-of-sync with his powers. He's careful and meticulous while his powers seem to demand speed. While many see that as a flaw, I praise it as a virtue. It makes him more interesting and defines him as someone outside of his abilities.

Also, Barry's powers could be seen as a metaphor for him finally moving forward after running in place for so long, being stuck in the past investigating his mom's murder. I love that about the character. Also, you already have the immature flyboy attitude in Hal Jordan, so to have Wally West instead of Barry Allen on the League would just be character redundancy. And before anybody says I'm bashing Hal Jordan, I have to say, I'm the biggest Hal Jordan fan out there. I love that fact that his hatred of being restrained or confined makes him come into conflict with authority. And as a member of an intergalactic, paramilitary organization under the authority of the Guardians, that makes for some great stories.

I have to disagree. With almost every one of your points actually:

• I disagree that a character becomes a Spider-Man clone simply for having a sense of humor. Or that Wally West was just comedic relief. Even if you're just looking at the animated JL cartoon, he had more depth than that. He was funny, yes, but he was also unique and interesting.
• I don't see Barry Allen's stodgy, bland personality as somehow being clever and going against type as far as his powers are concerned. I just see it as a boring character. Additionally, the spastic, uncontrolled and totally new powers they're throwing at Barry strike me as very similar to the "shock-and-awe" attempt to capture reader interest that ruined the new Static.
• I don't like Hal Jordan either--he's another example of the current writers' obsession with Silver Age properties--but really I don't think the choice of which Flash to put forward across the line should be determined by how they'll interact in one book (JL). It should be determined by putting the most dynamic and interesting character forward.

When I ask myself--as honestly as I possibly can--"Would this story arc have been better with Wally instead of Barry Allen?" the answer is a resounding YES. Barry Allen is old, bland, and busted. The most interesting thing he did was die. He is not the Flash. Wally West is the Flash and Barry Allen is just a part of his back story.

Are the eventss in the flash series current or of the past, I ask because in Justice League #5 he mention having to think fast, I thought it might be a throwback to previous issue of The Flash?

@fodigg said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

I have to disagree. With almost every one of your points actually:

• I disagree that a character becomes a Spider-Man clone simply for having a sense of humor. Or that Wally West was just comedic relief. Even if you're just looking at the animated JL cartoon, he had more depth than that. He was funny, yes, but he was also unique and interesting.
• I don't see Barry Allen's stodgy, bland personality as somehow being clever and going against type as far as his powers are concerned. I just see it as a boring character. Additionally, the spastic, uncontrolled and totally new powers they're throwing at Barry strike me as very similar to the "shock-and-awe" attempt to capture reader interest that ruined the new Static.
• I don't like Hal Jordan either--he's another example of the current writers' obsession with Silver Age properties--but really I don't think the choice of which Flash to put forward across the line should be determined by how they'll interact in one book (JL). It should be determined by putting the most dynamic and interesting character forward.

When I ask myself--as honestly as I possibly can--"Would this story arc have been better with Wally instead of Barry Allen?" the answer is a resounding YES. Barry Allen is old, bland, and busted. The most interesting thing he did was die. He is not the Flash. Wally West is the Flash and Barry Allen is just a part of his back story.

Well, its a good thing that that's YOUR opinion and not the opinion of the people who are actually writing the comics. When I ask myself if the story would have been better than Wally, the answer is NO. Major elements of the story, including the supporting cast, are centered on Barry's history, not Wally's. And Barry is not stodgy or bland by any sense. Simply because someone has a strong sense of morals and ethics doesn't mean that they're less interesting. Buccellato was actually saying in an interview that he believes that Barry IS interesting because of that and that it doesn't make him one note or uninteresting. And several stories after Barry's death even still went into developing his character. In Identity Crisis, for example, the fact that it was revealed that he would vote for psychically changing Light's personality shows that he is a man who can be gotten to, even with his morality. Also, Barry's a cop, which is a hell of a lot more interesting than Wally, who's just frequently unemployed. So, end of story, Barry is THE Flash, while Wally is a REPLACEMENT Flash. And from what I've heard, they're not planning on bringing back Wally any time soon, so I suggest you get over it. I mean, Wally comes close, but he is still less of an interesting character to me than Barry, so I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And Hal, while you might not like him, is undoubtedly the most interesting out of all the Green Lanterns. Kyle literally doesn't do anything. Whenever I've read a story with him in it, he contributes absolutely nothing to either the plot or the tone. Even in Identity Crisis where they made it such a big deal that BOTH he and Wally were spying on Carter, Oliver, Dinah, Zatanna, and Ralph, Wally was the only one who played any kind of role in the story afterwards. Kyle just faded into the background never to be heard from again. We never even really got his reaction to the whole mind wipe business. So, IMO, Kyle can just be erased. John and Guy are also pretty underdeveloped as characters. All you know about John is that he's an architect and he used to be a marine and that he was widowed by Katma Tui. But that's it. Guy, is worse. He's just a jerk who has a thing for Ice. Hal is the only one with any sort of likable personality or any history, not to mention any semblance of a supporting cast outside of the Corps. So, yes I like the Silver Age characters and I thank DC wholeheartedly for bringing them back and there are a LOT of people who agree with me, the majority, I'd say. Barry and Hal are the true Flash and Green Lantern, period.

can't wait for captain cold...next issue? or #7?

@Zeeguy91 said:

Well, its a good thing that that's YOUR opinion and not the opinion of the people who are actually writing the comics.

I'm aware that my opinion is my opinion, even if I don't explicitly label it as such. It's okay for us to disagree, even on the internet. I'll be responding to your post point-by-point, but I want to make it absolutely clear to you, up-front, that even where we disagree—even if we totally disagree—I am not trying to be dismissive of your views, and furthermore, that I visit these forums specifically to engage in such debates and discussions because I find them enjoyable, and I hope that you do as well. On to your points.

When I ask myself if the story would have been better than Wally, the answer is NO. Major elements of the story, including the supporting cast, are centered on Barry's history, not Wally's.

Considering that this storyline launched from a clean slate I'm not sure there's anything in it that couldn't have been applied to Wally's history. I don't think there was anything intrinsically tied to Barry that couldn't have applied to Wally, and in fact, the central conceit of Barry losing someone could have been applied to Wally losing Barry. The whole concept is based on rewriting history, so I don't see how that couldn't be changed.

And Barry is not stodgy or bland by any sense. Simply because someone has a strong sense of morals and ethics doesn't mean that they're less interesting. Buccellato was actually saying in an interview that he believes that Barry IS interesting because of that and that it doesn't make him one note or uninteresting. And several stories after Barry's death even still went into developing his character. In Identity Crisis, for example, the fact that it was revealed that he would vote for psychically changing Light's personality shows that he is a man who can be gotten to, even with his morality.

I don't recall every saying that Barry's sense of morals were what made him boring or stodgy. Far from it, one of the reasons I like Wally is because of the morals instilled in him by his time with Barry. Looking back on Wally's major story arcs—the GJ stuff—it was that comparison that drove him. Also, I find it strange that you defend his morality and then bring up an event of great moral failing on Barry's part as a positive. That seems...counter to your argument. Regardless, it's not his "morality" that makes Barry boring, it's the fact that he has all the personality of a slice of un-toasted wonderbread. The one time when I thought he did have some personality (seriously, the only time) was in the pages of DC: New Frontier, where he struck me as, well, an even more rebellious Wally West.

Also, Barry's a cop, which is a hell of a lot more interesting than Wally, who's just frequently unemployed.

Yes he works for the police, but he's not exactly a hard-boiled detective. He's a guy who sits in a lab wearing a bow tie. I know they billed his job angle as all "CSI" but that's certainly not what we've seen. He's far too bookish to really play that angle (and I remind you, you're the one who was making Peter Parker comparisons to Wally earlier, what about lab-coat wearin' Barry now?). I think the blue collar Wally—who was a police mechanic for a time and so you could still play that angle if you wanted—is far more interesting. And considering the state of the economy, I think people would relate to someone struggling to pay the bills and look for work. I don't buy that Barry's career choice makes him more interesting automatically.

So, end of story, Barry is THE Flash, while Wally is a REPLACEMENT Flash. And from what I've heard, they're not planning on bringing back Wally any time soon, so I suggest you get over it. I mean, Wally comes close, but he is still less of an interesting character to me than Barry, so I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

For the foreseeable future it certainly seems like the legacy characters—Wally West, Donna Troy, Connor Hawke, Cassandra Cain—are all being shelved (although oddly the Robins and the Green Lanterns got a pass), but nothing is forever in comics. I'm sure we'll see these characters again, but even if we don't, I've yet to see anything that made me like Barry more than Wally. What I've read showed a bland stock character that gets overshadowed by new, one-arc characters like Manuel/Mob Rule and that has crazy new powers assigned to him in a desperate attempt to make him more interesting.

And Hal, while you might not like him, is undoubtedly the most interesting out of all the Green Lanterns. Kyle literally doesn't do anything. Whenever I've read a story with him in it, he contributes absolutely nothing to either the plot or the tone.

Even in Identity Crisis where they made it such a big deal that BOTH he and Wally were spying on Carter, Oliver, Dinah, Zatanna, and Ralph, Wally was the only one who played any kind of role in the story afterwards. Kyle just faded into the background never to be heard from again. We never even really got his reaction to the whole mind wipe business.

Hal does nothing for me. He's had so many personalities it's like, which Hal are we talking about here? And Kyle is so...90s. I'm a John Stewart man. Hal is hit or miss, Stewart doesn't miss.

So, IMO, Kyle can just be erased. John and Guy are also pretty underdeveloped as characters. All you know about John is that he's an architect and he used to be a marine and that he was widowed by Katma Tui. But that's it. Guy, is worse. He's just a jerk who has a thing for Ice. Hal is the only one with any sort of likable personality or any history, not to mention any semblance of a supporting cast outside of the Corps.

I think you're really selling Stewart short here. Go back and read some of his stuff, because you seem to be unaware of his older, awesome storylines. And for Gardner, he's interesting because he's a jerk. A character doesn't have to be likable to be interesting or to have heroic qualities, and he's solid gold in some of his JL and JLI appearances.

So, yes I like the Silver Age characters and I thank DC wholeheartedly for bringing them back and there are a LOT of people who agree with me, the majority, I'd say. Barry and Hal are the true Flash and Green Lantern, period.

I'm not so sure the majority are with you. I think you'd be surprised. And the focus on the silver age at the exclusion of so many quality characters that have been introduced over the years is a damn shame. The "New 52," in many ways, is anything but "new" at all. At least Cyborg might be finally getting a fair shake.

Flash is definitely a series I plan on getting in TPB. I'm a TPB guy I guess; have the whole story there and I can enjoy it as a reasonable whole.

Anyways, I see we have an argument about the Flash. At least the new team's doing a good job and the book wasn't cancelled like certain others. Personally, I'm not sure about a lot of legacy characters who really is 'THE' character. With Flash, though, I think it might have been interesting to see Bart handle it. Not sure if DC did the right thing with Bart in OYL, but it's part of the parcel with a legacy character that the mantle is passed down. Jumping backwards seems to unravel that a bit :/

Definitely looking forward to the redesigns for the Rogues, though. Have we had any concrete word on the lineup (for the next arc, at least)?

@fodigg said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@fodigg: Dude. No. Truth is, I grew up preferring Wally because he was on the Justice League TV show, but honestly, this run (and Geoff Johns' before this one) have completely changed my mind. I think Barry has several qualities that make him a more interesting character than Wally. Wally likes to joke and throw out one-liners, but IMO that makes just like a Spider-Man clone. I used to like that immaturity in the character, but honestly, its grown a little old. Barry is more mature and grounded and the thing is, his personality seems to be out-of-sync with his powers. He's careful and meticulous while his powers seem to demand speed. While many see that as a flaw, I praise it as a virtue. It makes him more interesting and defines him as someone outside of his abilities.

Also, Barry's powers could be seen as a metaphor for him finally moving forward after running in place for so long, being stuck in the past investigating his mom's murder. I love that about the character. Also, you already have the immature flyboy attitude in Hal Jordan, so to have Wally West instead of Barry Allen on the League would just be character redundancy. And before anybody says I'm bashing Hal Jordan, I have to say, I'm the biggest Hal Jordan fan out there. I love that fact that his hatred of being restrained or confined makes him come into conflict with authority. And as a member of an intergalactic, paramilitary organization under the authority of the Guardians, that makes for some great stories.

I have to disagree. With almost every one of your points actually:

• I disagree that a character becomes a Spider-Man clone simply for having a sense of humor. Or that Wally West was just comedic relief. Even if you're just looking at the animated JL cartoon, he had more depth than that. He was funny, yes, but he was also unique and interesting.
• I don't see Barry Allen's stodgy, bland personality as somehow being clever and going against type as far as his powers are concerned. I just see it as a boring character. Additionally, the spastic, uncontrolled and totally new powers they're throwing at Barry strike me as very similar to the "shock-and-awe" attempt to capture reader interest that ruined the new Static.
• I don't like Hal Jordan either--he's another example of the current writers' obsession with Silver Age properties--but really I don't think the choice of which Flash to put forward across the line should be determined by how they'll interact in one book (JL). It should be determined by putting the most dynamic and interesting character forward.

When I ask myself--as honestly as I possibly can--"Would this story arc have been better with Wally instead of Barry Allen?" the answer is a resounding YES. Barry Allen is old, bland, and busted. The most interesting thing he did was die. He is not the Flash. Wally West is the Flash and Barry Allen is just a part of his back story.

I pretty much agree with all of your points here, but not the conclusion. Barry's a little bland, and while I've come to enjoy Hal's part in the Green Lantern saga Johns' is building, I still care very little for the character. He's easily my least favorite of the key Green Lanterns.

However, to say this arc would be better with Wally... I just don't see it. The biggest problem with this arc was the schizophrenic pacing. It was hard to follow when some moments got stretched across pages while days seemed to pass between without indication. I can't even tell how much of the series has been day or night. It's been a mess. And Manuel's complete flip-flop over how he felt about helping Mob Rule didn't help. The whole Barry vs. Wally debate can get a bit stupid at times, I've seen people dismiss this new series from the outset for not being about Wally, and I think that's a little ridiculous, despite my general agreement that Wally is a more interesting character. Barry's at least not a terrible character, but DC pushing him so much does fuel the whole 'Silver Age Obsession.' I'd be ok with Barry if he didn't completely erase Wally. At least Hal's return didn't wipe away the other Lanterns.

But again, the only thing that could've save this arc is GOOD PACING. The scenes all had nice flow individually, but the overall story was an atrocious mess.

@Zeeguy91 said:

Well, its a good thing that that's YOUR opinion and not the opinion of the people who are actually writing the comics. When I ask myself if the story would have been better than Wally, the answer is NO. Major elements of the story, including the supporting cast, are centered on Barry's history, not Wally's. And Barry is not stodgy or bland by any sense. Simply because someone has a strong sense of morals and ethics doesn't mean that they're less interesting. Buccellato was actually saying in an interview that he believes that Barry IS interesting because of that and that it doesn't make him one note or uninteresting. And several stories after Barry's death even still went into developing his character. In Identity Crisis, for example, the fact that it was revealed that he would vote for psychically changing Light's personality shows that he is a man who can be gotten to, even with his morality. Also, Barry's a cop, which is a hell of a lot more interesting than Wally, who's just frequently unemployed. So, end of story, Barry is THE Flash, while Wally is a REPLACEMENT Flash. And from what I've heard, they're not planning on bringing back Wally any time soon, so I suggest you get over it. I mean, Wally comes close, but he is still less of an interesting character to me than Barry, so I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And Hal, while you might not like him, is undoubtedly the most interesting out of all the Green Lanterns. Kyle literally doesn't do anything. Whenever I've read a story with him in it, he contributes absolutely nothing to either the plot or the tone. Even in Identity Crisis where they made it such a big deal that BOTH he and Wally were spying on Carter, Oliver, Dinah, Zatanna, and Ralph, Wally was the only one who played any kind of role in the story afterwards. Kyle just faded into the background never to be heard from again. We never even really got his reaction to the whole mind wipe business. So, IMO, Kyle can just be erased. John and Guy are also pretty underdeveloped as characters. All you know about John is that he's an architect and he used to be a marine and that he was widowed by Katma Tui. But that's it. Guy, is worse. He's just a jerk who has a thing for Ice. Hal is the only one with any sort of likable personality or any history, not to mention any semblance of a supporting cast outside of the Corps. So, yes I like the Silver Age characters and I thank DC wholeheartedly for bringing them back and there are a LOT of people who agree with me, the majority, I'd say. Barry and Hal are the true Flash and Green Lantern, period.

So a consistently employed character is more interesting than one in an economic struggle? Please explain that one to me. Him being a cop is a pretty cliche excuse for a simple status quo. Investigation turns up something strange. Barry investigates as Flash. Add Supervillain. Profit! Rinse and repeat. I'm not saying that DOES happen, even if it does sometimes, but that's the general idea him being a cop evokes. Someone who's unemployed needs different reasons to stumble into criminal activity when not on patrol. And he has a more potent struggle as a human being, not just a superhero. Again, this is all speculative at best, BUT to say an employed cop immediately makes him more interesting than someone continually unemployed is utterly ludicrous, if anything its the opposite. BUT, what REALLY matters is how those things are handled.

And you're the one trying to make sure Fodigg knows his opinions are only opinions and you have the gall to say Hal is 'undoubtedly' the most interesting Green Lantern? THAT is pure opinion, and your description of the other Lanterns makes it painfully clear your exposure to them is limited at best. Kyle Rayner is interesting because he's the complete opposite of Hal Jordan. Hal is a cocky womanizing thrillseeker. Ignoring the fact that that's been done to death and then some, Kyle is a more reserved emotional artist. He's a polar opposite to Hal. Just because he doesn't always get used well reflects on the writers YOU have seen write him, not the character. YOU only know that much about Stewart, did you know his arrogance was once responsible for the destruction of an entire planet, Xanshi? And that he grew into the more stoic man he is today from that? Obviously not. Just because you're exposure to a character is limited doesn't mean they're boring. Hal gets all the exposure lately, so of COURSE you know more about him. Guy is even more interesting than the rest of them though. He seems like a jerk, but he's actually more of a guy who just tells things like they are. He's a total wild card, a closet nerd, and a surprisingly NICE person once you get to know him. HAL is the one who's least likable. He keeps trying to get with Carol despite innumerable failures, USUALLY his own fault. He rarely learns lessons from his screw ups, and he's just such an arrogant jerk. He's a pretty typical chauvinistic jock and I can't stand him. HOWEVER, Johns' stories with him are so good I rarely mind. But don't accuse others of trying to force their opinions on you when you're doing it far more blatantly. Not to mention disregarding characters simply because your exposure to them is lacking due to them being pushed aside for the one people are arguing gets too much exposure in the first place.

Hey @The Mighty Monarch: thanks for the reply! You should know that @Zeeguy91 and I dug into the debate a lot more in PMs (didn't want to derail the thread any more) after that exchange and came to some middle ground. It basically came down to which storylines we thought of as "iconic" for the characters. For example, despite my generally negative opinions of Hal and Barry, I loved both of them in DC: New Frontier. If they were consistently written that way I'd be more fans of them. Unfortunately, they're not.

But on to your specifics:

I pretty much agree with all of your points here, but not the conclusion. Barry's a little bland, and while I've come to enjoy Hal's part in the Green Lantern saga Johns' is building, I still care very little for the character. He's easily my least favorite of the key Green Lanterns.

However, to say this arc would be better with Wally... I just don't see it. The biggest problem with this arc was the schizophrenic pacing. It was hard to follow when some moments got stretched across pages while days seemed to pass between without indication. I can't even tell how much of the series has been day or night. It's been a mess. And Manuel's complete flip-flop over how he felt about helping Mob Rule didn't help. The whole Barry vs. Wally debate can get a bit stupid at times, I've seen people dismiss this new series from the outset for not being about Wally, and I think that's a little ridiculous, despite my general agreement that Wally is a more interesting character. Barry's at least not a terrible character, but DC pushing him so much does fuel the whole 'Silver Age Obsession.' I'd be ok with Barry if he didn't completely erase Wally. At least Hal's return didn't wipe away the other Lanterns.

But again, the only thing that could've save this arc is GOOD PACING. The scenes all had nice flow individually, but the overall story was an atrocious mess.

You make a great point about pacing. I can admit that even if it were Wally and not Barry, the pacing would still be--what's a good word?--frenetic. Fast pacing might seem like a good thing for a Flash book to have, but not if it loses cohesion. Bringing Wally into the mix wouldn't have fixed any of that, but I do think a little more humor in the mix might have made the whole thing more entertaining. More-so than "Hey, look at all of Barry's new nonsensical powers" anyway. Either way, I was glad to give Barry Flash a go (same as I grudgingly gave Bart Flash a go) but I still would much prefer Wally.