Batman Annual #1 - First Snow

@Outside_85 said:

@MonkeyToe said:

I think there is still some sympathy to be had for Fries. I felt that was the whole reason that we got the flashback of his mother and therefore instilling a young Victor with some deep psychological issues, essentially losing his mother to the ice twice.

I seem to remember some people complaining about the previous change in Freeze, where they added the cryro-experimentation on the neighborhood pets. Granted this kinda gave a reason for him getting started. But one of the things I found compelling about Freeze was that he wasn't crazy or even deranged like most of Batman's enemies, he did terrible things to people who got in his way, but I liked the idea of him as a man pushing so far for something as simple as love for his wife.

Sadly...Freeze is like every other nut that Batman fights, and Batman says that quite clearly. :(

Granted, I am far from an expert on anything DC as I have just picked up reading DC comics with the launch of the New 52. In my opinion though, the new changes only deepen his character. So he was a man so in love with his wife that he was fighting to bring her back. But surely, he was already crazy. Normal people don't ignore society just to get what they want. He wasn't just pushing the laws to get his wife back, he was straight up breaking them. It seems to me that this hardly explains such a drastic change in personality. Yes he was in love, yes he wanted his wife back, but what made him so obsessed with it? There was nothing to explain the break in his psychology before so far as I can tell. Now, psychologically speaking, the character has a reason to be broken in the head.

@MonkeyToe: Actually that was another thing they added with the animal experiments. As a kid and young adult Victor was supposedly immensely shy and introvert, leaving him essentially friendless. Nora however brought him out of that shell, and he was desperate to get her back after she had been put on ice, because she was the thing that mattered most in this world to him. So, I wouldn't call him crazy, more that he was desperate and driven to a point where he would do anything to get her back. (I think it could be equated to him gladly making a deal with the devil if it was offered, if you're normally a Marvel reader, think of Mephisto and some of the deals he's made, with like, Spiderman.)

@Outside_85 said:

@MonkeyToe: Actually that was another thing they added with the animal experiments. As a kid and young adult Victor was supposedly immensely shy and introvert, leaving him essentially friendless. Nora however brought him out of that shell, and he was desperate to get her back after she had been put on ice, because she was the thing that mattered most in this world to him. So, I wouldn't call him crazy, more that he was desperate and driven to a point where he would do anything to get her back. (I think it could be equated to him gladly making a deal with the devil if it was offered, if you're normally a Marvel reader, think of Mephisto and some of the deals he's made, with like, Spiderman.)

I see what you are getting at, but even so these are not the actions of a mentally healthy person. If you are willing to put many other people's health and lives at stake for one person, then you don't fully understand the boundaries of right or wrong. These are the same psychological problems that serial killers possess. In either story he is a sociopath plain and simple, not just some average joe going through abnormal lengths to cure his wife.

@Outside_85: I agree completely.

I'dd give this 5/5 , Great issue.

I think they sould make more villain issues.

@TheRedRobin96: Batman is barely in it. Get it. Its really good.

I just read the issue, It was awesome, now I don't feel that he is a victim, but I still feeling sorry for him.

I'd rather have Lazara back than this new Nora.

I hated Lazara.

Also, mohawk is lame.

*insert generic "Heart of Ice" love letter here*

@zackattack529: Yeah, Snyder is way overrated.

This was the time and opportunity to turn a good Batman villain into a great one. Mr. Freeze never had a definitive story that made him unforgettable. His best story was from Batman: The Animated Series. He deserved a better story and that's what Snyder and James Tynion IV have done.

I disagree with that premise. To me, Heart of Ice is as perfect as it gets.

Now this comic book is very good as sucg but once again, the RetCon is not doing anything for the character. From tragic well intended person who got his heart broken and lost his mind when he lost his wife and became that cold being, he is now a deranged and pervy sociopath.

It makes for a good twist but like everything with Snyder, on the long run, it is just not that good and too reliant on those RetCon twists.

-You thought Gordon's son was just in comic book limbo? Well he is back and he is a psychopath!

-You thought Batman knew everything about Gotham? Well he does not! There is a secret society in Gotham!

-You thought Harley Circus was just a Circus? Well it is not! It is a cover for said secret society!

-You thought Mr Freeze was this tragic character who lost his mind because of how much he is in love with his wife? Think again! He actually is a sociopath and a perv!

Again, the comic books are good but those changes are hurting the Batman franchise. One of the key themes in Batman is that Gotham and its crime evolved with the arrival of Batman. I do not see why the Gordons, the Graysons and the Pennyworths and the Waynes should have deep family secrets involving pre-Batman superhero stuff. Also, the villains are supposed to mirror Batman and to be as tragic as he. I did not feel bad for Victor Fries here (like I did for the Joker in The Killing Joke or Two-Face, or the Penguin, or Harley Quinn, or Bane, or Ra's al Ghul), like at all.

@DarthShap said:

This was the time and opportunity to turn a good Batman villain into a great one. Mr. Freeze never had a definitive story that made him unforgettable. His best story was from Batman: The Animated Series. He deserved a better story and that's what Snyder and James Tynion IV have done.

I disagree with that premise. To me, Heart of Ice is as perfect as it gets.

Now this comic book is very good as sucg but once again, the RetCon is not doing anything for the character. From tragic well intended person who got his heart broken and lost his mind when he lost his wife and became that cold being, he is now a deranged and pervy sociopath.

It makes for a good twist but like everything with Snyder, on the long run, it is just not that good and too reliant on those RetCon twists.

-You thought Gordon's son was just in comic book limbo? Well he is back and he is a psychopath!

-You thought Batman knew everything about Gotham? Well he does not! There is a secret society in Gotham!

-You thought Harley Circus was just a Circus? Well it is not! It is a cover for said secret society!

-You thought Mr Freeze was this tragic character who lost his mind because of how much he is in love with his wife? Think again! He actually is a sociopath and a perv!

Again, the comic books are good but those changes are hurting the Batman franchise. One of the key themes in Batman is that Gotham and its crime evolved with the arrival of Batman. I do not see why the Gordons, the Graysons and the Pennyworths and the Waynes should have deep family secrets involving pre-Batman superhero stuff. Also, the villains are supposed to mirror Batman and to be as tragic as he. I did not feel bad for Victor Fries here (like I did for the Joker in The Killing Joke or Two-Face, or the Penguin, or Harley Quinn, or Bane, or Ra's al Ghul), like at all.

I agree with your point about changing Mr Freeze's origin but Snyder's additions of making Gordon's son a psychopath, introducing the Court of Owls and making Haly's Circus an audition stage for the Court's Talons layers the history of Batman and his supporting cast, giving the Batman universe more depth as well as adding a more diverse Rogues gallery for Batman to face. There's only so many times you can write a Joker, Two Face, Scarecrow, Penguin amongst other Batman Rogues stories and the fact Snyder is able to create unique, riveting challenges for Batman to face as opposed to going up against one of his usual rogues every month is a great strength of Snyder's writing IMO. They don't hurt the Batman franchise, they add to it.

@Lvenger said:

I agree with your point about changing Mr Freeze's origin but Snyder's additions of making Gordon's son a psychopath, introducing the Court of Owls and making Haly's Circus an audition stage for the Court's Talons layers the history of Batman and his supporting cast, giving the Batman universe more depth as well as adding a more diverse Rogues gallery for Batman to face. There's only so many times you can write a Joker, Two Face, Scarecrow, Penguin amongst other Batman Rogues stories and the fact Snyder is able to create unique, riveting challenges for Batman to face as opposed to going up against one of his usual rogues every month is a great strength of Snyder's writing IMO. They don't hurt the Batman franchise, they add to it.

They are not just additions. They are RetCons and go against certain ideas that forge the Batman concept.

The Gordons, the Graysons and the Pennyworths and the Waynes are supposed to be normal families. Joe Chill killing the Waynes is just a mugging gone wrong in a city of crime, corruption and a few dark secrets but nothing more. What makes Batman so exceptional is the moment right after that. He decides to fight against Crime itself and then everything changes. Supervillains and superheroes start appearing as a response to what he is doing. In Year One, he is just fighting the mob. Catwoman makes her appearance because she is inspired by him and The Joker takes this form because he was traumatized by Batman when he fell into these chemicals and so on...

That is why it does not work to have Gotham always filled with supervillains. It works against the entire mythos.

Same thing: Dick Grayson is supposed to mirror Bruce Wayne. Him actually being part of a secret organization of assassins does not work with that basic idea, the coincidence is just stupid and it makes absolutely no sense that the almighty court of owls did not kill Bruce and take Dick then and even less that they would not kill Zucco the moment he started to extort from their front.

As for James Gordon Jr, it just feels like bad soap opera. I loved the comic book but again, the father is the police commissioner, the daughter is Batgirl and we are supposed to believe that the son was born a psychopath? Again, they are supposed to be normal people, that is the point of Year One. It would make sense that James Jr would become a crazy supervillain, as a result of growing up in Gotham, as a rippling effect from Batman and other supervillains but that is not the case. He was born this way.

@DarthShap said:

@Lvenger said:

I agree with your point about changing Mr Freeze's origin but Snyder's additions of making Gordon's son a psychopath, introducing the Court of Owls and making Haly's Circus an audition stage for the Court's Talons layers the history of Batman and his supporting cast, giving the Batman universe more depth as well as adding a more diverse Rogues gallery for Batman to face. There's only so many times you can write a Joker, Two Face, Scarecrow, Penguin amongst other Batman Rogues stories and the fact Snyder is able to create unique, riveting challenges for Batman to face as opposed to going up against one of his usual rogues every month is a great strength of Snyder's writing IMO. They don't hurt the Batman franchise, they add to it.

They are not just additions. They are RetCons and go against certain ideas that forge the Batman concept.

The Gordons, the Graysons and the Pennyworths and the Waynes are supposed to be normal families. Joe Chill killing the Waynes is just a mugging gone wrong in a city of crime, corruption and a few dark secrets but nothing more. What makes Batman so exceptional is the moment right after that. He decides to fight against Crime itself and then everything changes. Supervillains and superheroes start appearing as a response to what he is doing. In Year One, he is just fighting the mob. Catwoman makes her appearance because she is inspired by him and The Joker takes this form because he was traumatized by Batman when he fell into these chemicals and so on...

That is why it does not work to have Gotham always filled with supervillains. It works against the entire mythos.

Same thing: Dick Grayson is supposed to mirror Bruce Wayne. Him actually being part of a secret organization of assassins does not work with that basic idea, the coincidence is just stupid and it makes absolutely no sense that the almighty court of owls did not kill Bruce and take Dick then and even less that they would not kill Zucco the moment he started to extort from their front.

As for James Gordon Jr, it just feels like bad soap opera. I loved the comic book but again, the father is the police commissioner, the daughter is Batgirl and we are supposed to believe that the son was born a psychopath? Again, they are supposed to be normal people, that is the point of Year One. It would make sense that James Jr would become a crazy supervillain, as a result of growing up in Gotham, as a rippling effect from Batman and other supervillains but that is not the case. He was born this way.

To me all these things you've mentioned don't go against the nature of the concept of Batman. The Court of Owls challenge the very concept of Batman as he is supposed to know Gotham inside and out and had dismissed the very idea of the Court of Owls. Yet in Batman, it is discovered that they do in fact exist and are far more influential than Batman had dreamed. As such, the clash with them is one that allows Batman to be beaten and shown as vulnerable, something we don't get to often see.

In terms of Dick Grayson, the coincidence is a bit far fetched but I think the reason why the Court never acted against Zucco was because he wasn't on their radar. In issue 2 or 3 of Batman, Lincoln March suggests to Bruce that his new Gotham initiative brought Bruce to the Court's attention which is why it makes sense they hadn't shown up before.

Finally, these things do happen. Either through some kind of trauma or problem at birth, psychopaths can be said to be naturally born that way. Plus the things they are capable of make them dangerous threats and I enjoyed seeing Dick take on an actual psychopath, one more closely related to the psychopaths we face. If he became a psychopath as a result of Batman and the other supervillains, that would have diminished his character. One of the best things about James Gordon Jr was that he had no real gimmick unlike Batman's other villains, he simply relished causing others pain. That was the chilling thing about the storyline.

@Lvenger said:

To me all these things you've mentioned don't go against the nature of the concept of Batman. The Court of Owls challenge the very concept of Batman as he is supposed to know Gotham inside and out and had dismissed the very idea of the Court of Owls. Yet in Batman, it is discovered that they do in fact exist and are far more influential than Batman had dreamed. As such, the clash with them is one that allows Batman to be beaten and shown as vulnerable, something we don't get to often see.

Showing him surprised and vulnerable is a good thing. But here, it is going against the very concept of Gotham before Batman. Gotham is a city of crime, not a city of supervillains. Joe Chill is its symbol, just a mugger. Batman becomes Gotham's first superhero for his fight against Crime and changes the nature of crime as a result. It is organic, it works and it makes Batman special. After Snyder's run, all of that will have been destroyed and for what?

@Lvenger said:

In terms of Dick Grayson, the coincidence is a bit far fetched but I think the reason why the Court never acted against Zucco was because he wasn't on their radar. In issue 2 or 3 of Batman, Lincoln March suggests to Bruce that his new Gotham initiative brought Bruce to the Court's attention which is why it makes sense they hadn't shown up before.

Zucco and Bruce were not in their radar but Dick was. If the Circus was their training academy and Dick their next Talon, my guess is, the very day Zucco made his first threat to the Circus manager, he would have told the court and had him killed. And even afterwards, they would not have left anyone adopt their next Talon. Talons were just too precious to let someone ruin the Talon of a generation.

And again, it all messes with the idea that like the Waynes before the mugging, they are supposed to be normal people, not parts of a killers academy.

@Lvenger said:

Finally, these things do happen. Either through some kind of trauma or problem at birth, psychopaths can be said to be naturally born that way. Plus the things they are capable of make them dangerous threats and I enjoyed seeing Dick take on an actual psychopath, one more closely related to the psychopaths we face. If he became a psychopath as a result of Batman and the other supervillains, that would have diminished his character. One of the best things about James Gordon Jr was that he had no real gimmick unlike Batman's other villains, he simply relished causing others pain. That was the chilling thing about the storyline.

Of course, it happens but it is just unbelievable that it would happen to this particular family, who again were supposed to be normal. They become exceptional after Batman's arrival.

To me, it is all bad soap opera. "EVERY THING YOU THOUGHT YOU KNEW IS WROOOOONG!"

It is not the greatest use of the Batman universe. In RIP, Morrison was pretty much making fun of this type of stupid RetCons with his rumours about the Waynes (which actually were invented by Hurt to destabilize Bruce Wayne in the future, him being a living time paradox created by Darkseid to kill Batman).

@DarthShap said:

Showing him surprised and vulnerable is a good thing. But here, it is going against the very concept of Gotham before Batman. Gotham is a city of crime, not a city of supervillains. Joe Chill is its symbol, just a mugger. Batman becomes Gotham's first superhero for his fight against Crime and changes the nature of crime as a result. It is organic, it works and it makes Batman special. After Snyder's run, all of that will have been destroyed and for what?

A valid criticism. But Gotham's been around for much longer than Batman and there have been other 'heroes' in DC Universe long before the first modern superhero, Superman debuted. As such it makes sense that there would be other villainous organisations and evil characters which have come about prior to Batman so why can't Batman face these past threats without retaining his uniqueness and his impact on crime?

@DarthShap said:

Zucco and Bruce were not in their radar but Dick was. If the Circus was their training academy and Dick their next Talon, my guess is, the very day Zucco made his first threat to the Circus manager, he would have told the court and had him killed. And even afterwards, they would not have left anyone adopt their next Talon. Talons were just too precious to let someone ruin the Talon of a generation.

And again, it all messes with the idea that like the Waynes before the mugging, they are supposed to be normal people, not parts of a killers academy.

I believe the Talons were about to make Dick the next Talon after his parents' murder as only the Richard and Mary Grayson were targeted for death. As such the Court would be willing to let this happen to allow them to take Dick Grayson in without him having any meaningful attachments which would allow the Court to rigorously train him to become a Talon. However, Bruce stepped in at that moment and adopted Dick, thus disrupting the Court's plans.

@DarthShap said:

Of course, it happens but it is just unbelievable that it would happen to this particular family, who again were supposed to be normal. They become exceptional after Batman's arrival.

To me, it is all bad soap opera. "EVERY THING YOU THOUGHT YOU KNEW IS WROOOOONG!"

It is not the greatest use of the Batman universe. In RIP, Morrison was pretty much making fun of this type of stupid RetCons with his rumours about the Waynes (which actually were invented by Hurt to destabilize Bruce Wayne in the future, him being a living time paradox created by Darkseid to kill Batman).

Again the coincidence is a great one but as you say the Gordons are a family tied to the Batman universe so making their family the one with the psychopathic son in made the Black Mirror more personal as James went after Barbara all the while prior to that Gordon was torn between thinking that James could have relapsed back into his psychopathic state of mind and be responsible for the recent string of murders. Besides Snyder hasn't wrecked the Bat universe completely, he's merely turned over new developments that can be slotted into the current Batman storyline without disrupting the continuity. And I did enjoy the Morrison run on Batman as well though I never picked up on the fact the Wayne rumours were mocking the retcons that occur in the comics.

I always like Mr. Freeze as a sympathetic villain. Not sure how I feel about Snyder turning him into a sociopath.

the funny thing about the plot that was his mom.

I like the twist at the end and I'm very curious where they'll take it in later issues. I loved this book.

Not sure that i like the changes they did to Freeze , made him less symphatic. It's always the part I liked about him. Now it seems that he's just a crazy person , as all of batman's villains:P. I love Scott Sneider's writing on Batman , not sure about this annual.

Have absolutely loved everything Snyder's done with Batman so far, but this revamped version of Mr. Freeze not so much. I liked the fact that he was sympathetic before. It made him different from most of the rest of Batman's rogues gallery. Now he's just kind of another gimmick obsessed psycho which makes him less unique since Bats already has a ton of those.

Oh well, I tend to pick and choose what stories go into my personal continuity for these characters, anyway, so I'm just going to keep the Dini version for my own!

did not get i is wife was the lady on the wheelchair