THIS ARTICLE WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR RED SKULL #1

Chris Claremont was one of the first mainstream superhero writers to give a villain what could be considered a truly sympathetic backstory. In casting Magneto as a survivor of the Holocaust, the horror of which fuels his designs for a mutant utopia, Claremont gave us a badguy that we could still root for, and did it in fairly simple fashion. But he never lost sight of the fact that Magneto WAS still a villain, a tradition carried on by Cullen Bunn when he wrote the character's most recent solo series. RED SKULL #1 asks us exactly how far we're willing to go when it comes time to "root for the badguy" by recasting the Skull as a possibly-dead symbol of chaos and rebellion against the current status quo.

Villains like the Red Skull differ from ones like Magneto in one key way: there's very little to be sympathetic toward them about. Similarly, villains like Deathstroke and Sabretooth, both of whom either have or have had their own series, don't come from a sympathetic backstory, but there's just something compelling about them anyway. Sure there's the rebellious thrill of pulling for "the badguy," but that isn't any kind of foundation to build a long-lasting narrative on. An example of this kind of things done right would be the current run of DARTH VADER where Kieron Gillen pulls no punches in Vader's villainy, but casts him less as pure evil, and more as efficient to the point of disregarding life. We don't want to see Vader fail, but it's strange to want to see him succeed.

One easy way to side-step around it is to cast them against an even greater evil, and while VADER doesn't do that, DEATHSTROKE often does, but is there any evil greater than the Red Skull in the Marvel U? Skull was on the "supply" side of the horrors of World War II rather than the recipient of them and he's remained unrepentant ever since, even engineering Captain America's assassination/trip through time and hijacking a cloned body of his at one point. Even during the Acts of Vengeance event, he was clearly one of the greatest villains recruited into Loki's group, to the point that Magneto only joined to attempt to kill him.

What Joshua Williamson has done is remove morality from the current situation and given the cast of RED SKULL a common cause: survival. This is a clever move as it, obviously, leaves the door open for Skull to get his later in the series, assuming he's even still alive, and it allows the reader to root for the survival of the group as a whole. If the Red Skull IS alive in the Deadlands, it means that he's learnt how to survive in a place thought completely impossible to do so in. So we want to see him alive, but only for as long as is needed to ensure the safety of the people we actually care about.

Claremont gave us a badguy that we could still root for, and did it in fairly simple fashion. But he never lost sight of the fact that Magneto WAS still a villain

Didn't he make him a good guy eventually??

Anti-Hero more so, he's still considered a bit extreme by most other heroes.

Only 2 reasons

villain vs villain

or

villain vs hero thats being an ass: like green goblin v superior spiderman.... i was rooting for gobby the whole time

Big fan of ragtag villain teams. Red Skull was a decent read. Thinking of giving Illuminati a go.

What's up with these articles? Where the reviews at?

~MiB

So no reviews

With marvel it's hard not to root for the bad guy, he's usually a lot more honest than the good guy and he switches sides less often. The Skull is a terrible person and deserving of what ever pain he suffers, but how many worlds has he destroyed as Namor did? Yes he was on the supply side of the horrors and pain of World War 2, but Reed and Tony were on the supply side of the horrors of the negative zone prison, yes he's brainwashed but so has Prof X and Moria.

The way the writers at marvel play fast and loose with evil it's very hard to keep which side the characters are on straight so it's hard not to root for the bad guy. After all this weeks bad guy is next weeks new Avenger. When there is no good guy on the horizon it's a question I think of how much you'll enjoy the bad guy going down, not rooting for him.

The whole "hero" thing will always be a lie to me.

hello ? is there anybody out their...

I root for the villain usually when they are a sympathetic character or their actions are somewhat justified, or when the hero really isn't any better. Casting them against an even greater evil works as well, as does making them seem not completely evil.

The best villians to me are the ones who believe they are doing terrible things for a just cause.. Many of which i usually root for. Like Magneto and Doctor Doom.

To each his own. Magneto as the X-Mens mentor was a natural development for the character I had thought.

I'm rooting for Thanos and the Cabal, Doom is a scumbag.

At least their beliefs are firmer than some heroes.

When they work for Cobra?

Whenever the hell you want, it's fiction after all. You don't somehow become a morally inadequate person if you rule for the villain. If he is charismatic enough or just downright enjoyable, why not?

For instance i read the current Future Imperfect series, Maestro is obviously the villain and he is quite vile as he has no problem killing innocent people but the character himself is so enjoyable and the series itself follows him on his task to bring down Doom and take his place as the ruler of Battleworld, he is not taking Doom down for a just cause, he is just replacing one evil with another. I am not sure it would be possible to read the story without rooting for Maestro in some way.

Depends on the "villain's" motivations, and whatever it is that they do that labels them villainous. For one, I like Doctor Doom because he always seemed to be 10 steps ahead of whoever he was up against, with the exception of Reed Richards. I like Darth Vader because he was never really villainous; for the entirety of the Rebellion, he ended up doing what he felt he had no choice but to do. He had completely resigned himself to his fate because he'd been devoted to the Emperor's ideals of order and stability through conquest and domination for so long.

All that said, no, I don't find myself rooting for Johann Schmidt. Magneto? Maybe. He's never really been a villainous character, just a pseudo boomerang bigot with a ton of issues. But the Red Skull is a racist, fascistic monster who would kill millions of people if he thought it was a good idea. He's a Nazi. I don't think he's the kind of guy you want to root for.

I particularly like villains who could easily play for either side given the situations, their ambiguity makes them interesting and allows for development you may not be able to do with most heroes.

If I had powers I'd totally be a villain, just more subtle about it than fictional villains.... Oh and NO monologues! I wouldn't explain my evil plan to James Bond, I'd just have him killed.

When the bad guys kill each other. Never like too much when bad guys turn good and past sins are forgiven. Its bad enough when they steal the show. When they are really human and we should look the other way. Differently like it when the bad guys pit each other and not have the hero stand in. Usually, the hero will hold back, but when two bad guys go at each throats, its more fun. Sometimes I think the writers/editors love the heavies, too much. Most people want to see the hero and bad guy, it so annoy to see them struggle ( the hero). On a side note, have the hero watch the bad guys fight each other with some popcorn for entertainment value.

@undeadpool. You do know that Deathstroke does have a tragic backstory, right? His son was kidnapped and muted by a criminal and his wife shot him in the eye because she blamed him.

He's still considered a bit extreme by many reader, like me :) sometime ever for the "Anti-Hero Definition"...

Whos the Ultimate Electro looking guy in that lineup? And since when is JackOLantern alongside Winter Soldier and Magneto....heck when is Jackie even ever USED?

I always root for Dr Doom for a few reasons.

1) He genuinely believes what he is doing is best for the world, he embraces the Ubermensch ideal, stepping beyond the boundaries of society and into the realm of self rulership and manifest destiny.

2) Doom exudes a natural magnetism and charisma that is hard to ignore.

3) Villainy is beneath Doom

4) Moments like this:

I've been thinking the same thing

when the heroes are being winy moronic a-holes that are too busy arguing amongst themselves to get the job done (Ultimate Marvel, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., and Arrow all come to mind)

I am BAFFLED at the people who need villains to be sympathetic or "the hero of their own story" before they can read about them. You don't NEED to like someone to find them interesting. I would definitely read an ongoing about Red Skull in all his sick and sadistic glory as long as it was an interesting story and it delved deep in to his beliefs.

I like the Thunderbolts and The Suicide Squad. Bad guys who are good guys who are really not THAT good.

when its ok to root for the bad guy? when they join the side of the angels! mystique is an x-man (again) YES!!!!

When the villain is more interesting than the hero. I often find myself rooting for guys like Joker, Doom or Sinestro.

Only when they are a Anti-Villain. I always hear talks about Anti-Heroes. What about Anti-Villains? (+)

Whenever you feel like it. It's fiction.

I'm grooting for bad guys.

I don't want my villains sympathetic. Damn, can't a muthafu*ka just be evil??

Whenever I feel like.

Bane is a bad guy, however his life in prison and constantly heroic portrayal in the Secret Six, as well as his helpfulness to Batman's war on crime repeatedly make me occasionally root for him. Same can be said with Magneto's horrible past.

Rooting for a villain who is less evil than another villain is an "okay" emotion to have as well, I supose. Like Bane, again, in Arkham War, Darth Maul in the Clone Wars, Xemnas and Organization 13 when they were battling Maleficent and the heartless.

I also like the "honorable villain" trait. Admiring, for lack of a better term, Rarou, Bane, again, Darth Maul, again, Deathstroke, and other such antagonists for their battle prowess and lack of insanity is nothing to be concerned about.

Not always. It's easy to tell someone your favorite villain is the Joker. But telling them Red Skull would be very different.

Virtually any time. I find villains to generally be either far more entertaining or far more complex characters and, unlike many heroes who go about their business with all of the enthusiasm of someone on their morning commute to a performance review, whereas villains tend to really *enjoy* what they do. That enjoyment is infectious even if you *totally* disagree with the message the character represents.

I think the act of judging someone for which fictional character they support in their wanton escapism is *far* more of a problem than someone choosing to root for an abhorrent character. It's like judging someone because Stalin happens to be their favourite leader to play in Civilization, or because they tend to adopt a play style favouring dictatorial government types. Odds are they are able to separate fantasy from reality, but the person sitting there judging them for their choice seems to have unrealistic difficulty doing that. Now when the Civ player starts saying "well, I actually really think Stalin did good in the world" you have a problem - but that's likely not why the person plays Stalin.

Good points! Characters should have agency and have fun while doing it, that's why villains come across as more entertaining often times.

I recently read X-Necrosha and I couldn't help but to root for the antagonist who was a mutant vampiress bent on killing everyone and becoming a goddess via dark ritual. The story was told largely through her and we saw her plans and motives (crazy and unreasonable as they were). Whereas the X-Men just blundered around reacting to things in a chaotic and unorganized manner.

Bingo. You can only watch the noble hero go about his/her duty like he's being asked to mow the lawn so many times before you kind of want to root for the person wearing clown makeup who's actually enjoying what they're doing. I've spent years having *way* more fun reading villains than heroes and here I am in a thread suggesting that there is something wrong with this when I'm a perfectly well adjusted functional member of society with many positive relationships in my life and accomplishments under my belt. My thought is that the people who think rooting for Red Skull in a fantasy comic book is some sort of moral transgression are the ones who have balance issues, not me.

So, bring on your cackling eugenics supporters, the insane mass murderers, and the works. Have some fun with your escapism - that's what it's there for, after all.

The traditional, hard to stop genuinely evil and aggressive villain antagonist has needed a good comeback in comics for some time now. The ones you were generally scared of being they could pulverize the heroes all at once, or work prep like a nightmare.

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