I just wanted to put this topic out there because other then Trigon and her half brothers, she has no real villans that pose a threat to her directly and I want to kinda feel like I am changing that. So here is my solely Raven Villan.

Her name is Abela and she is from Azarath. Having grown up watching Raven be at the side of their goddess Azar she felt a little bit jealous and while it did grow it was not strong enough to overcome the teachings of the Azar. The same teachings that taught them to be weary of anyone with demon blood. Fast forward to when they are both 15 or 16 Abela learns that Raven has demon blood but is sort of royalty in the demonic world. Fearing for the Azar's safety and slight jealousy for Raven's place in their home mix. One night she tried to ambush Raven but it backfired when Raven in self-defense used her powers and made one of Abela's eyeballs explode. This surge of power was the reason Trigon found her and we all know the story from there. I would say that Raven is unable to really fight Abela and even goes so far as to protect her from the other heroes because of guilt for what she did and their shared upbringing.

Not bad, I too had the idea about a native of Azerath that was primarily Raven's enemy, only I'd either be using that guy who nearly exiled Raven as a child. Instead of Trigon incinerating him as it originally happend, the guy would have been stopped by the others and sent into exile on his own. When Raven appears on Earth, he's drawn to her (or had been waiting for her) and fearing the worst from her, intends to kill her before she can summon Trigon.

The alternative was to re-purpose Jinx as she was from the cartoons and explain her as being from Azerath and born around the same time as Raven, only she couldn't conform and eventually left. Would make a natural rival to Raven.

I was interested in what Headcase could've been to her, too bad it was cut off at the legs.

I always figured, why not just a demon slayer/exorcist determined to kill Raven for the "greater good" believing her to be the Antichrist? He could be someone who's done nothing but save innocent souls from demonic forces but his fanatical beliefs and refusal to sympathize with Raven's situation makes him the villain when in any other story he'd be the hero.

He could be an Ahab or Van Helsing-like figure to her, only the story is from the monster's POV.

@black_wreath: I was happy to see Raven dominate Headcase because I believe that means that she not using her powers to the fullest extent and that she wants friends so badly that she is willing to scale down to their level just to have friends. Wow I just realized how sad that is.

and for the Van Helsing like figure look no further then Kid Crusader. because if the new Raven is a queen of the underworld than we can him align with the church like Magdalena from Top Cow.

@brickwall32: Yup even though she could take over the planet if she wanted to she allows herself to be manhandled by muscleheads, I guess it's worth it to her. Though it is cool when she gets a win like whooping Dr. Psycho's ass while unconscious. XD

I was picturing an old dude but that does make sense, well except the Magdalena comment as I have never read anything Top Cow lol.

@black_wreath: Patience is the latest in the line of women known as the Magdalena, wielders of the Spear of Destiny and once holy protectors of the Catholic Church. Patience is the third Magdalena to be featured by Top Cow, the first Sister Rosalia was an enemy of Jackie Estacado before she was killed.

That is the summery from her page here on Comicvine.

A demonhunter would be a natural enemy, but I have to say I don't like the idea of Kid Crusader, I mean a child is supposed to be hunting and killing things that might drive men insane with a look? I do prefer an older man or woman, someone of experience thats seen most of that the demonic can come up with (also means they have killed kids in the past). If he wasn't stuck so far up the bat-cave, Azarael could have been perfect for this. Otherwise you could make someone similar to Deathstroke, just instead of being a merch, he/she could be working on behalf of some branch of a church.

Another foe you could play with is something like Marvel's Hellfire Club, a collection of powerful individuals who are out for more and has a taste for both the exotic, depraved and dangerous. Something like the 'Cold Flame' that Constantine tangled with, but perhaps more sophisticated and a little less murderous... think of them trying to rope Raven in but in a cat vs mouse way, just toying with her.

@outside_85: I like the temptation aspect of this club you speak what with Rae being so restrained it would be cool to see her in a forbidden fruit story.

This combined the demon hunter they could work pretty well as opposite sides of a coin, that the wicked welcome her with open arms while holy men want only to destroy her would be a test of character for Rae.

Sadly the HFC is over in Marvel, I could imagine those people (not the kid version) wanting to try and pull Raven in like they did Jean. A DC version... perhaps that just needs a bit more 'hellfire', like a club where humans (magical and not) and demons (primarily) meet on equal terms for the same reasons. To prying eyes it would just be this high end club for the movers and shakers, but behind the facade it might be a bit more Hostel than Sex and the City... though there is probably also quite a bit of sex as well :) I imagine this could be a good place to introduce someone like Tala, who was a succubus in the past.

The demonhunter on the other hand... you kinda have to decide whenever he is just out to kill demons (which may limit his time on Earth once he fails) or if he and and his organisation want something more... a shot at Trigon? Repentence? Confession? Maybe they want to try and exorcise her? Or just good old information?

@outside_85: Having thought it over I'm changing him to a her and her motivation is both revenge and redemption. She and her boyfriend/husband/girlfriend/whatever were occultists and summoned a demon making a deal that went south because demons are shifty bastards and the demon killed her partner and claimed ownership over their soul.

She repented and went too far in the other direction becoming an overly devout nun but then kill her priest for being too soft on sin -naturally administering the last rites while doing- (I would also give Raven a relationship with this priest to make it more personal and Rae has taken solace from a priest in the past) she then vows to rid the earth of all demons, abominations and the unclean both to prove her own newfound purity and gain revenge on demonkind.

She should also start an Opus Dei style convent, brainwashing other nuns into joining her crusade, including lovely things like self-mortification and impossible standards of righteousness to live up to. They could end up warring with the Church of Blood.

I call her Mother Superior (real name Chastity Magdelene) and The Sisters of No Mercy. (uhh... working titles....)

@black_wreath: Here this would be a good name: Sorores angelica indignationis. I got the name by typing Sisters of Angelic Wrath in to a Latin translator.

I suppose that sounds more legit than a pseudo-pun on an old goth rock band... Kinda hard to say though...

If this is all everyone has for villains then no wonder Raven doesn't have a solo comic because even the fans don't want to give her a villain like Superman has Doomsday or Batman has Ras Al Ghul. Someone who challenges her to call on her full power and is of a similar mind to where this person can get to Raven mentally. Come on guys I challenge everyone to do better.

Wouldn't that be Trigon?

@black_wreath: no Trigon is her main villain like the joker is batman's

@brickwall32: I'm just saying how could anyone we come up with challenge her to such a degree as you describe that is comparable to Trigon while have a repore comparable to her own father? He is her ultimate villain, nobody is replacing him unless God himself declares war on Raven.

I put quite a bit of thought into mine, you come up with another and I will too.

@black_wreath: I am sorry if I offended you, but I just want to see her get more personal villains that she chooses to deal with personally like her son Wyld which has yet to return on that note here is my second Raven Villain: His name is Jason Clark

As the grandson of Kon-El, he always felt that he had a greater destiny. However after the Superhuman war class Omega beings are not welcome on Earth. He feels that the blame falls on Raven as a lot of people break the war down into to ideals Raven's and Kal-El's, but after the war she went to join the new gods on their home world. Knowing that he can't challenge the Raven in his time he decides to go back in time to end her life before the start of the Superhuman war believing that if she is dead than the war won't happen and he can stand side by side with other members of his family.

@brickwall32: Wyld... *shudder* I did not like that. I thought that was weird. Bad weird. At least Wanda was an adult... O_O

No offence taken, friend. So there is a war in the future between the ideals of Raven and Superman? Am I understanding correctly? I can be thick and may need a bit more detail.

Raven believes that the heroes should help from the shadows and only truly step in when the threat is great enough.

Superman believes that the heroes should be everywhere and try to stop crime before it happens.

@brickwall32: Maybe Brother Blood. But your idea is really cool.

@brickwall32: So in your story Raven believes Superman interferes with people's lives too much or that he should be more conspicuous? What motivates Raven to challenge him?

@black_wreath: His fights with Lex Luther, from her view point the only reason the fight keeps happening is because Lex wants a challenge, one Kal-El keeps allowing to happen. She finally says enough is enough and while the two are fighting she intervenes and stops the fight by taking Superman to the middle of a desert. This is where she tells him what she thinks he is going about defending Earth the wrong way. She tells him the it is not right to always intervene in the humans problems and that they need to learn by solving their problems themselves. He disagrees and their argument goes for hours seeing as they are debating the situation and seeing as they are both the ideal images of tolerance and pacients neither of them get angry and attack the other out of respect. The actual war didn't happen until after Nekron's return. This is where we would see Raven cut loose and taken on Nekron in the hopes of delaying him. Notice I said delay not defeat because that was all she was able to do and this results in the lose of one of her arms. Now Superman and the league did defeat the black hand and thus Nekron was banished with the league taking credit. Now many in the superhero community took issue with this because it was thanks to Raven keeping Nekron's attention on her that allowed them to get as far as they did, but Raven sensing the raising hostilities tried to warn Superman about it but as she was on her way Trigon whispered into Supeman's ear and convincing him in attacking Raven. Much to Raven's disliking the fight was very public and was fought with no restraint. The world saw Superman and Raven fighting on equal terms and this causes people who thought nothing of Raven look to her like a goddess. After the seeing this Raven disappears in the hope that humanity forgets about the fight and this leaves Superman alone to face the fire from the other heroes this is where Shazam steps in and from there it leads into a Kingdom Come event.

@brickwall32: Very interesting, just wondering what is Shazam's stance? Is he an ally of Rae's? Will she return and get involved in the war or try to disassociate herself from it? Who are some who would support her ideals?

@black_wreath: While the two had never met Shazam/ Billy has always heard about her from Wonder Woman, Donna Troy, Wally West, and Zantanna. All of which respected her for walking the path she did, but Donna also spoke of her wisdom seeing as the two are close friends. All of which gave him the opinion that she is the Superman of Magic (I don't like calling her that but that is how I believe he would see her in this situation seeing as he is a kid) and now that she gone he felt someone had to stick up for her.

She will not return until after the war as she didn't realizes that her influence had spread that far and she was unware of the war as she retired into an pocket universe that only she knew about.

Garfield, Starfire, Donna, Kara-Zorel, and to everyone's surprise Batman as they knew she disliked it when others fought on her behalf, but with Batman saw the same thing Raven did. If the heroes go to war Earth loses.

There was a similar thread somewhere else around here (dunno where though), but so far we have:

• Trigon (real)
• Brother Blood and the Church of Blood (real)
• Sons of Trigon (real)
• Wyld (not a fan myself of this idea, but real)
• Demonhunter (theoretical, this thread)
• A Hellfire Club (theoretical, this thread)
• The Buisness Man / Mage, imagine a type like Thor's Agga of Roxxon, a buisnessman who believes he/she can turn a profit by harnessing/harvesting unusual powers of metahumans... like finding out Raven's blood can induce rapid healing and such. Alternatively have a mage who thinks it would be a good idea to have Raven's powers for his own. (theoretical, this thread)
• A troublesome but ultimately 'good' cult that wants to use Raven against her father or believes it would be best if she was under stricter control (theoretical, other thread)
• Cybernetic organism, thematically after emotions which it doesn't have and leaves Raven nearly blind to it (theoretical, other thread)
• Survivors, a group of people that have survived Trigon and is now out to extract vengance on him in any way they can (theoretica, other thread)
• Other demons and demon lords, shouldn't be much of a stretch to think why other demons would see Raven as a problem to be dealt with. (theoretical, other thread)
• Angel, likewise, shouldn't Raven set off all kinds of alarm bells within certain parts of heaven? (Theoretical, other thread)

Raven the 'Good' half-demon vs a murderous half-Angel that is a fight that would be interesting.

How about a hilariously common slice-of-life villain with no superpowers or even knowledge of who Raven is kinda like how adult superheroes will sometimes have to deal with petty thieves or crooked cops/businessmen?

Raven vs Mean Girls, a couple of high school bullies who decide to make her life a living hell through pranks and rumours whose actions begin to routinely ruin Raven's attempts to deal with supernatural threats at the school and get in her head which drives her mad that this mundane issue keeps jeopardizing her heroics against much bigger fantastical problems - she's trying to protect the same kids who torment her. Cue Carrie prom scene where they go too far and Rae turns into a demon in front of the school.

I know going the opposite of epic doesn't appeal to all comic book readers but I always loved the Day in the life of stuff in NTT.

I like the angel idea too, I'm shocked that hasn't been used.

Mean Girls could be entertaining, oddly enough, though I'd imagine Raven would just tank the abuse it because the stuff she's seen makes it look like compliments to her.

Either that or have one of her classmates be either possesed or impersonated by another demon and the two have to sort each other out without either of them alerting the class.

I am willing to bet that this is the storyline that the are going to be using for the mini-series.

I hope so. I find Rae most endearing when forced into navigating everyday crap.

Plus, I don't see DC do too much slice-of-life stuff these days, but then I don't read much these days.

I think it would be interesting to see Pandora be one of ravens villain. I know technically she is good but think it would have been cool.

My take would actually have been to have the Azar reveal herself as re-embodied for some time after the whole Phantasm incident and that she essentially has abandoned the trappings of 'near' divinity for a kind of post-human divinity that sees Raven, as a daughter of Trigon, as a threat that has to be destroyed like her father should. Putting Raven essentially as the enemy of *both* of her mentors and facing her with a serious challenge in terms of her personal identity. Or alternately as per my redesign of Raven, have the Azar basically have 'faked' her death for her convenience to pursue greater goals and reimagined as a Classical deity in height with brilliant golden armor with a bird theme.

Another of her enemies would actually be not an angel but essentially a counterpart to Wilbur Whateley of the Dunwich Horror: a sorcerer descended from Dark Gods who sees Raven as a foe mostly because he believes she sooner or later will fulfill her destiny and thus muscling in on his own territory. A kind of foil to her, right down to being overtly monstrous all the time (and male) and of course referencing two classic works that Raven herself fits right into the theme of. He'd be either the spawn of one of Grant Morrison's abominations or literally (since Cthulhu and company are public domain now) the son of Yog-Sothoth intent on obliterating Earth and its attendant universe with it.

Also as an interesting concept I haven't seen here, a parallel of Raven herself who's become a Knight Templar killing all her parallels after *she* fought another one that left her family and friends dead and destroyed most of her world. An enemy dangerous from understanding Raven more than anyone else does, and developing highly specialized talents designed to kill her. Could work as a Wolverine and Sabertooth thing or as Raven's version of Dr. Doom, not least because Raven actually didn't do anything to antagonize her but exist. *And* avoids the cliche of a Son of Trigon element while playing into the multiverse. This version of Raven's destructive methods and overcharged power level by tapping into her full level of abilities without going completely raving mad with them would also make her a recurring enemy of the Justice League and Dr. Fate and other mystics.

It's an interesting idea, an 'evil' Azar. Personally though, I think it would work best as a 'corruption/redemption' story where Raven's ultimate goal is to save her old mentor.

Because Raven is on a team lol?

I mean I'd love to see her move away from the kiddies and travel among dimensions and showcase her magic.

But DC doesn't really do that unless you're a token black guy (Cyborg) or a contemptuous little shit who gets put on teams and other books because hes the spawn of the most bankable fictional character since Jesus Christ.

It's an interesting idea, but I wouldn't pull this one right now considering the Titans have just had to deal with 'evil future Donna', Teen Titans have just bumped into evil future Tim (again), while not that long ago it was the Justice League with their future kids and all that.

But a future or parallel version of Raven showing up is an interesting idea, since you are casting her as the antagonist meaning she is not going to be holding back, much.
I am sort of more into in a future version of Raven atm, for as long as DC hasn't kicked the notion of Trigon being a kind of singular entity in the Multiverse like the New Gods away, since it would mean Raven is also a unique being.
For one you get get to play around with a future version of an existing character, and there's quite a lot you can do with that since there is no telling what she's been through to get to where she is. I like the idea of a Templar-Raven, since it sounds like Raven (somewhere, sometime) manages to purge her demons from her, loosing some of her power and instead takes up a different arsenal to continue the fight. Then with the future version, you have to explain why she's come back and why she is doing what she is doing.

Like I could imagine that 'Templar' remains hidden for quite a while because she is waiting for something. She's hiding from herself, and the Titans have no idea who she is, only that Raven is the target for reasons even Raven isn't clear on. It goes on for a while, brief encounters, displays of power while Templar is dealing with 'issues', surveillance and maybe even shadowy meetings. And then Templar is finally cornered (or is she?) and everyone who has Raven's back turns up. And here you face the choice of Templar being defeated and vanishes without being revealed, or only revealed to Raven and/or the reader afterwards, or she unmasks in front of everyone revealing that everything she has been doing has actually been an effort in trying to guide Raven... away from bad influences (like Damian?), or towards becoming Templar earlier than she originally did in order to ward off a disaster that will befall them later on.

The other way you could play this is ofc to make Templar an outright villain, she may be cloaked in light and maybe she was good once, but she's rotten and lost on the inside now. And now she's here to kill Raven either in a desperate hope that she herself wont come to pass or because she's on a crusade to kill everything related to Trigon. This of course smells a lot like the now done story with evil future Donna... so to avoid it just being a copy/paste story, you could have Raven try and redeem this other version of herself and it works. Or you could have Templar's opposite number show up, a demonic looking Raven who is actually pure good, this new version could be considered Templar's minder from a kind of mystic nursing home, or you could have her litterally be this future Raven's other half and that the two combined is what makes up the actual future Raven (ofc it's in blinding light so we only get the smallest glimpse) who then immediately departs, warning that the two Ravens might be separated again.

Visually, I imagine someone like Templar should dive into the whole video game appearance of a templar... suit of armor in white with gold trim and splash of red, big sword, helmet or hood that conceals her identity, maybe a cape but not sure. Powerwise she should ofc mimic Raven's to a large extent, but the source might be different so Templar's energies are (predictably) white rather than black and very likely holy in nature. Way you could demonstrate this is if Templar takes a detour to Las Vegas to attack Raven's brothers and the Lucky Devil Casino the spend their time in, the brothers recognize her, but then she pretty much burns them and the casino to the ground, which could also serve as the point where someone other than the Teen Titans take notice of this.

This is a very cool thread, with lots of interesting ideas.

I for one like that with a sort of "hellfire club", with the lust, depraved, kinky, and search for power and thrills part, and with members as Raven's brothers (Trigon sons), Brother Blood, other demons, fallen angels, mages, powerful people across the world and dimensions.

They are not as powerful as Trigon for example, but just as insidious and spread in various dimensions, not just on Earth, and like to stay and play behind the curtains most of the time, lurking in the shadows, prey on others for their own twisted reasons and trying to either bring Raven in or taking her down.

At the peak of the story they might kidnap the Titans for example, and take them to hell or so, and Raven just snap and go full on after them, destroying everything and everyone in her path, taking down anyone from the hell rulers to her brothers and leaving a huge chaos behind and a big shift and void to be filled in the balance of things in the multiverse. This will eventually lead to a full on interdimensional war, attracting from Trigon to Phantom Stranger or Spectre to angel armies to other superheroes and villains (fighting on both sides, some like JL Dark, Baron Winters, Constantine, Etrigan, the actual JL, Teen Titans ofcourse, Dr Fate etc) and spilled over various dimensions, with shifting alliances, backstabings and hard choices to be made.

I also like the idea of a misguided enemy from the "good side", someone of the type of father Anderson that was trying to kill Alucard in Helsing series.

It can be a female, ofcourse, the leader of some old and very secret religious order bend to hunt down all sort of demons and who learn about Raven in a moment she slip a bit on her darkside and shows a glimpse of her true powers and her demon side and appearence. Or he/she witness by chance a dialogue or a fight between Raven and her brothers in their demonic form, when they will tell Raven that even she beat them she will eventually fall to their dad, Trigon.

So he/she believe that Raven, as "the daughter of Satan" and despite her apparent good side, will eventually open the doors for her father Trigon and will bring the end of life as they know it and as such she needs to be hunted down and killed by any means necessary.

And Raven will want to both keep her away without really harm her and to convince her that her good side will prevail at the end and she can keep Trigon out and Earth safe.

I'd quite like to develop the idea of a HFC-like entity a little more, this is without getting too specific:

House of Bacchus, front:

An social club dating back to the early 20th century meant to entertain the ultra-rich and powerful in ways only their money could buy, known for it's exclusivity, grand parties and extravagance. An invites-only club, the House is very selective about who is invited to join the House as full members and who are only invited to the parties. Despite holding many charities and many more open parties, the House is also known to host many more private gatherings on it's numerous estates and properties for its members, causing many rumours to spring up about what the House does once the public are away.

Membership: Members are drawn from all over the world and often count people of great wealth, politicians, celebrities and other people of influence. Rumours are abound that even select superhumans are members of the House. But as members are sworn to secrecy about what they see being the closed doors, it remains only a rumour.

Structure: Like many clubs and gatherings this old, there is a hierarchy within the House. At the bottom are the rank and file members simply known as 'Citizens', those who have been part of the House for long and been recognized for their abilities in some way attain the rank of 'Baron' and are afforded more privileges and benefits than Citizens. At the top are the Lords, the defacto leaders of the House, numbering only a tiny handful of people and who's wealth and power eclipses the Citzens many times over.

Parties: Most often when the House opens it's doors to the curious public to glimpse at, the vision is often that of themed parties where attendees are required to arrived in themed outfits, means of transport, and behave as the theme dictates, though often highly embellished to show off the wealth.

House of Bacchus, reality:

In truth, the House of Bacchus is much more than simply a social club. It is an center of hidden power that have both raised and ruined leaders, nations and people, but unlike other similar gatherings, the House of Bacchus only moves to do these things to entertain itself as long as their means and way of life remains as privileged and sheltered as it is. But make no mistake, the House is willing to go very very far to protect these things.

Members: The key word for a member, is power. Nearly all who have attained membership are people in positions of power and often delights in demonstrating the kind of power they have in whatever way pleases them.

There have been many sinister rumours about the House, dating all the way back to the founding. Some about the effects of their influence being suspected to have played a part more than a few tragedies throughout the years, not to mention the debauchery the parties can descend into. And some are worse, involving missing people and strange deaths, none of which are eased by the House's secrecy and the strict process even the servants and security have to pass through if they wish to see employ. Nothing of these rumours comes close to the truth however.

Now, with the rise of superhumans, the House has set their sights on new targets to manipulate to their advantage and entertainment. Initial encounters have already taken place and estimates have concluded the first generation of superhumans are unsuitable, being too risky to engage further. Sighs have now been lowered to the younger generation, finding it more impressionable and easy to influence.

A section of the House has been intrigued by the rising prominence of the group known as the Teen Titans, with particular interest in the girl known as Raven as being particularly vulnerable and yet very powerful.

@outside_85: Thats a very good development, but I for one I will also add the classic "deal with the devil" part (like them getting their power, fortune and positions by dabbling in the occult and making such deals and having such connections), at least in the "lords" case. Or even have some of the Lords as not humans but part of supernatural world.

Partly because simple humans alone (as rich or influential they could be) will be a bit underselling or less believeable as such a great danger for someone as powerful as Raven or TT (and in an universe full of superpowers and superpowered beings as DC universe) and partly because she is anyway inherently tied to the supernatural and mystic world, due to her heritage from Trigon.

Well, what makes up the ranks of Barons and Lords is part of what I'd leave for later on so you discover whats really sitting at the head of the table. And I'd actually be open to the idea that they are all entirely human, but they have the kind of money and power that makes them seem like more.

Ah but that's the challenge for them, how do they get someone like Raven under their heel? And for what reason? Let me detail a scenario I thought of since:

Imagine if at the school Raven is attending is a student, lets call her Amber. Amber is very reserved, but it is known that her mother is loaded and the private driver shows up to deliver and pick her up every day. Raven and Amber don't have a lot in common despite sharing several classes. Now what if Raven and Amber end up sitting next to each other and work together often enough that some kind of relationship is formed.

Amber however isn't the threat and isn't all that she might appear to be. Unknown to most, Raven included, Amber is the ward of a woman called Angela, an ultra-rich socialite and head of a large consortium she inherited at a relatively early age (she's 40 at most). She is a Baron within the House of Bacchus, and has more than a little blood on her hands already, but Angela wants more, she wants a seat at the table of the Lords. And this is where Raven comes into the picture. Angela is a skilled, but low-powered telepath in her own right, but only the very fewest knows this. A demonstration of her talent is Amber, a girl she pretty much picked off the streets years ago, whose mind she has worked on so many times now that Amber has practically lost all notion of free will, she is what Angela wants her to be and do. Amber is what Angela calls, a project and with that she's learned of Raven, she believes she can do the same to her, and grant her the kind of power that could unseat one of the Lords for her.

Of course Angela isn't dumb enough to think she can just browbeat Raven into submission like she did Amber, and she knows she can't just make Raven 'vanish' without triggering a lot of other capes. So Angela's challenge lies in somehow luring Raven in without her actually noticing and raising the alarms. Amber is the first step in that direction, because the idea is that Amber befriends Raven without Raven having to use her powers on her like she did with the others. Eventually Angela, who is pushing Amber, allows Raven to come home with Amber, like friends do. They do this a couple of times, with Angela and Raven meeting along the way, and Angela proving to be disarming and friendly, but seemingly oblivious to Raven's appearance. Now since Raven isn't thick, she is a little suspicious about how open Angela seems to be with her, but she doesn't really get anything to fuel it with. That is until Raven gets invited by Angela to attend a party at her house, but still goes along with it because Angela asks her to do it for Amber's sake, since Amber tends to become quite bored with all the grown ups that normally attend.

Party is of course a huge setup for Angela to show off Raven to House Bacchus as a demonstration of what she is aiming to do. And the whole thing is where everything starts getting serious. Raven ofc ends up getting handed a spiked drink and has to sleep over. Amder decides to handle the whole, getting into bed thing and manages to whisper to Raven that she needs to get out as soon as she can before Raven drifts off. Now this is the point where you decide whenever or not you continue the charade and Raven just wakes up the next morning feeling weird, but Angela's voice somehow makes it better (imagine she is the kind of person that could get her hands on stuff like Queen Bee's hypno-pollen). You go HFC and she wakes up strapped to a table in the basement and is about to undergo a bit of brain washing at the hands of Angela. Or you go into full horror mode and the whole thing is revealed to be an elaborate scheme of the House itself to get Raven to be part of their club and they are about to make her unable to leave by stripping her of a part of her soul.

Key item to Raven's escape however I maintain should be Amber, who, unknown to Angela, has either found out about everything thats been done to her and denied her while under Angela's care. Or that she can't bear seeing what Angela or the House is doing to Raven and steps in. Result is Raven escapes with out without Amber, but is now aware of the House's interest in her. Amber I see as either loosing her life for Raven, either killed during the rescue or afterwards by Angela or the House, or taking Angela's place in the House, maybe revealing she had been aiming for this result since the beginning.

Speaking of villains, what is her win ratio? with all the comics I've read so far she seems to be good as a support role for the Titans, hell normally they keep her at her most powerful because they need her teleporting powers in case they need to bail out. But it seems that on a 1 on 1 she is pretty much a glass canon. I have seen that she can control emotions or scramble enemy's minds but when she is fighting a mayor villain her emphat powers seem to not be able to affect them. Is it because these villains have some kind of strong will or am I missing something from her powers? Is there a place where she mentions she can only screw with someones emotions if they are weak?

Because there are so many times I have seen her jsut dropping the ball and not using her soul-self to finish the fight.

@lancer0127: they make her weaker than what she is because of the plot, being in a team and with Damian in the spotlight the writers involved are using her only as a background character, one more reason for her to leave the teen titans

Well I'm talking more about 1980s Raven. A good example is Terra, yeah sure she never really trusted her completely but in every iteration of The Judas Contract plot, Terra is able to defeat Raven. I mean, what is stopping Raven to just send her Soul-self and just finish her up, I mean one time she almost accidentally killed Kids Flash while being under the control of Paranoid's illusions. Or hell, freaking Dr. Light was able to one shot her with just his emotions. Sparta is another one that comes to mind in the high end of fights.

I feel that maybe is just the writers not knowing the extent of her true powers but it just makes me question how power Raven actually is.

With the Judas Contract the reason Terra normally wins the initial strike is simply because she manages to ambush Raven and take her out before Raven has a chance to retaliate or even defend herself.

But Tohellandback23 is correct, Raven becomes naturally limited in the use of her powers when on a team, as do most characters since a team is more about balance... so you down play the powers of the really powerful characters and inflate the not so powerful ones. Happens everywhere, especially on TT and the JL, where someone like Superman's presence nearly invalidates the presence of the rest of the team. On top of all that, we as readers just have to accept that not everyone is as interested in Raven as we are and they aren't really required to really showcase her abilities over characters they might be more fond of.

@outside_85: That makes sense. Although trying to fight Dr. Light was hard on her specially because of all the hate he had.

I kinda temper it with all the other crap that fight offered, so at-least it wasn't just Raven who got depowered for that one... on top of that it was a moment when you saw who Johns actually favored out of the old Titans.

I like the idea of both someone like that Amber girl used as a sort of secret agent to try to get close to Raven in a more peaceful and less suspicious environment as the school, and the idea that Amber would play a long game to eventually take over Angela place in the House (by eliminating her, as any new Lord can only take that position when an "older" one was permanently incapacitated or even killed).

Alternatively Amber may simply "hunt" for new "preys" for the House to play with, and she don't know who is Raven actually, just that is a more social awkward girl with an interesting appeareance that might interest Angela, her direct boss.

She may use Raven for that, "offering" her to Angela (without fully telling her or even without knowing Raven abilities, depends which variant you think is better) and then watch an eventually pissed off Raven dispatching her and inadvertently free a place for Amber at the Lords table as Angela wouldn't be able to handle the situation and will be considered guilty for the mess created and for revealing the inner, devious circle of the House to Raven and the Titans.

This will both set Amber as a really devious, cold blooded, ambitious and resourceful enemy and will introduce the House as the larger, general enemy.

Again alternatively Amber might be used as you say, and she eventually help Raven to escape. During the events, while Raven was getting rid of Angela and her faction of the House, Amber might get killed somehow, to set the future conflict and Raven desire for revenge against the House.

However I for one I see this playing much better or more beliveable if at least some of the heads of the House (including Angela and even Amber) arent just simple humans (regardless how influential or rich) but someone really powerful and with ties and/or outright part of supernatural or mystical world.

Otherwise it will rely too much on the plot and especially nerfing Raven abilities to be easily tricked like that.

I think I may have set it up a little too much, on things happening at random, but sometimes that happens. Anyways I was thinking it was by chance that Amber and Raven attended the same school, and it probably has to be like that since I dont think you could wheel in someone like Amber who then immediately gravitates towards someone like Raven.

I could imagine Amber being something like a hunter, but you have to consider you can't really use her as a hunter too much because things escalate as soon as just one student goes missing. You could ofc have her as a student who just passes through for a couple of months or weeks before she's relocated and any potential victims vanish at a time when it's convenient.

And the way they get to Raven is not to discount or nerf Raven's abilities, my setup is that Raven is a girl of few real friends that are normal, and I'd imagine she'd be thrilled if she made a friend without having to use her powers to do so. Whats the biggest stretch I fear, is how far will Raven actually go for this friend or go along with this friend. Also Raven's abilities is why I think it's needed that Angela and Amber remain human, because I'd figure Raven would be able to detect a demon if she sees one that isn't ready for her.

I did toy a bit with the idea of Angela actually being somekind of vampire, but at the same time I asked if it was necessary for her to be anything special. I mean not all Raven's enemies have to be able to match her in power and in the DCU there isn't a shortage of means to control even very powerful superhumans.

Anyways the basic idea I had with this was sort of formed around Raven facing off against an Emma Frost kind of person in Angela, Amber on the other hand is sort of if Kitty Pryde had been 'lost' to Emma and her academy. Raven and Amber would sort of gravitate towards one another as lonely birds, which Angela then tries to take advantage of. The end might be that Raven looses her friend or her friend has to let Raven go in order to save her. Like if Amber turned on Angela and took her place, nearly the first thing she might do was get Raven away from the House.

Later on you could do a kind of follow story where they come back, Amber could have ended up corrupted by the power she's gotten, but now being guided by one of the Lords. Which is where Raven is going to confront them, likely at a time when they actually try to tempt her to join them and take Ambers place.

@totu: True, you could use her as a kind of unwitting marker, where the goons show up without her knowledge. But my point was rather that Amber would leave first in orderly fashion so no one could tie her to any disappearances.

And thats the challenging aspect of this. If you can abduct normals with little problem, there is no challange, now you target superhumans and it becomes a different ballgame.

To be honest, I don't think keeping Raven pinned in someway is that hard, depending on what you actually intend to do or need. Like her body is relatively human, so if you just need her to be somewhere, you could just keep her sedated (which has happened in the past). Likewise if you need her awake for some reason, you give her something that makes it very hard for her to concentrate and sluggish since most of her powers are tied to her mind. Then ofc you have the magical options of fitting her with something that renders her powerless, people with the kind of money we are discussing here could simply buy something like that or hire a magician to make it for them. It's ofc not going to be a shining moment for Raven to be caught like that, unless she can somehow free herself, but I think it's important to show that the villains actually do know what they are doing, to a certain extent.

Ambers fate should be left a bit open, and if I am honest, I am not quite sold on the idea that she actively manipulates things from her end. But that has to do with me imagining her as a kind of blank slate thats mostly running a program Angela put in her... but the time with Raven is ultimately what reawakens the person she once was, kinda like how Vader turned on Sidious while Luke was getting tortured in front of him. And that reawakened spirit is there long enough for her to free Raven, but once she's gone she goes back to taking orders.

You know, I might start to write something on this.