HAHAHAHA!!! Seriously?

Guys, what's the point in arguing like that? That's a comic book character, that's all. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion so why treat others like retards because they like (or don't like) the acts of the Punisher, that's really disrespectful. Even if Frank Castle can be considered a psycho, it doesn't change the fact that he only kills criminals who deserved it. Don't forget that even if he had anger issues before, he only started his one-man war against criminals after the death of his family. That's pretty sad and that was his breaking point, and a lot of people relate to him because some traumatic events happened to them or to other people wich showed them how violent and rotten our world really is.

I really like this character because, like it or not, a lot of people deserve to die. Maybe it's not up to him to make this decision but who will? In the Marvel Universe, criminals rarely stay behind bars and it looks like the death penalty doesn't exist. A lot of heroes are hypocrits because a lot of them killed at one point (like Captain America, and I don't even talk about Wolverine...) and those who never killed are clearly being delusional, especially when a lot of their loved ones died because of their moral code (Spider-Man is a perfect example).

Like I said, I think that a lot of people deserve to die, even in the real world. Thinking that prisons are the problem isn't really realistic IMO. The whole judiciary system has clearly a lot of flaws (dirty cops, legal loopholes, stupid laws...), it's like that for every country in the world and a lot of monsters are roaming the streets of the cities unpunished (in real world or in comics).

As much as I like the Punisher, and even if I think that what he does is good for the society in general, I wouldn't agree to this in real life. The whole appeal to the character for me is that he only kills criminals who deserved it, he never kills innocents because it's a comic book character and that's what makes it possible. In real life, even with the best of intentions, it wouldn't be possible because we are only humans, and people always make mistakes, that's a fact.

He was a joke and not worth to be killed, he has never hurt anyone, he just gets hurt.

Well... Logan stabbed Peter during a training.

Sadly, that's mostly gone down the drain as of recently. Have you been reading the current Spider-Man? He's lucky to get the time of day from the other heroes. 

Its a part of what distinguishes him as a character? I mean sunshine and peaches give Frank a gold star and an adamantium statue in Times Square and let me known when the ticker tape parade is, and we can all LOL when Frank affectionately kills someone for littering and throw our heads back and chuckle, "oh that Frank, that's vintage Punisher" and then slap him on the back. Character experiences extreme event and situation and character has extreme philosophy and attitude as a result. Similar to, but not necessarily the same as other characters and all characters are a little bit different. Punisher is also a flawed character. Flawed characters are not meant to shining examples that the characters writer wants us all to be and be, and be. Relatable, illicit empathy or sympathy for, get us to think and reflect, but not follow in. Its about discretion. Its about characters having defining characteristics that transcend in story logic and reasoning.  
 
As for the flaws in the characters philosophy, well as great as it is to kill the bad people, killing them tends to breed the conditions that create more bad people. So you know, putting down the gun and picking up a book tends to fix things a lot better, it just requires more effort and thought. That being said one thing I know from a few Punisher stories, and the characters characterization can be inconsistent, but that at least some versions of him, is that he is well aware of this, and he is aware he is playing a losing game, but that this knot and cycle that exists could probably be untangled a bit better if someone just cut a few threads away, and things might need to get a bit worse before they get better and thus the Punisher!       
 
(love the replies in this thread - very cool) 

More recently, it seemed like a majority of the Avengers don't really care for his sarcasm in the field, as exhibited in Avenging Spider-Man. Rulk was basically pissed off just to be near him and outright admitted he wasn't sure why someone like Peter was allowed to become an Avenger in the first place.   Wolverine gives him grief on a consistent basis, but he does that to everyone and their mother these days.

@X35 said:

Punisher is a brutal murderer with absolutely no desire to change.

Wolverine at heart doesn't want to be the brutal murderer he is.

This, to an extent.

Why is there so much respect for what the Punisher and the Wolverine have done and for the killing of criminals in this thread? It's hypocritical to think that the best way to deal with murderers is to kill them as that makes you a murderer as well. Killing is killing and there shouldn't be any sugar coating on it. Every life matters to me, even those who have done wrong. Now I'm not religious, I'm an atheist so I'm not saying it for that reason. I'm saying it because I was inspired by Superman's belief in the value of life. At every turn he upholds the laws that humanity has created and never crosses the line. He remains a shining example of the best attributes to humanity. I still think that incarceration/imprisonment is the best form of punishment that is suited to all crimes. The only thing that should change is the time spent in prison whether it be several years or life imprisonment and I do mean life unless the prisoner shows good behaviour.

@X35 said:

Punisher is a brutal murderer with absolutely no desire to change.

Wolverine at heart doesn't want to be the brutal murderer he is.

And this answers at heart the OP's question.

the punisher just shoots people, not really a "spider man" or "captain america" is he...

Why is there so much respect for what the Punisher and the Wolverine have done and for the killing of criminals in this thread? It's hypocritical to think that the best way to deal with murderers is to kill them as that makes you a murderer as well. Killing is killing and there shouldn't be any sugar coating on it. Every life matters to me, even those who have done wrong. Now I'm not religious, I'm an atheist so I'm not saying it for that reason. I'm saying it because I was inspired by Superman's belief in the value of life. At every turn he upholds the laws that humanity has created and never crosses the line. He remains a shining example of the best attributes to humanity. I still think that incarceration/imprisonment is the best form of punishment that is suited to all crimes. The only thing that should change is the time spent in prison whether it be several years or life imprisonment and I do mean life unless the prisoner shows good behaviour.

@Vance Astro: I was referring to a couple of users earlier but the crippling thing seems a bit much. I'd only cripple someone if it were absolutely necessary and if the situation called for it. For instance, if a criminal were holding someone hostage and I were a police sniper, I would go for a cripple shot then. I don't understand why policemen just cripple dangerous criminals who could be a threat instead of shooting them to death. It seems a bit much when one well placed shot ends the threat. But my point is that crippling someone would be a very last measure resort, not just to put someone out of action. I only use enough force that is necessary when I have to defend myself so I wouldn't personally cripple anyone unless the situation was very serious.

@InnerVenom123 said:

You say "and then he kills them all" as if there's something wrong with that.

...Well... It is...

@Vance Astro said:

Before the Punisher blew Stilt-Man's legs off, Stilt-Man was TRYING to kill him.

I don't think that he would be able hurt him, and he had never killed anyone, he is a thief, he is not a threat, and he got killed.

Using that logic then the Punisher should kill Black Cat too.

Which wasn't an attempt to kill Peter.

So, that guy is insane, is like saying "I stabed you with a knife, but don't worry I didn't meant it"...

@Vance Astro: I was referring to a couple of users earlier but the crippling thing seems a bit much. I'd only cripple someone if it were absolutely necessary and if the situation called for it. For instance, if a criminal were holding someone hostage and I were a police sniper, I would go for a cripple shot then. I don't understand why policemen just cripple dangerous criminals who could be a threat instead of shooting them to death. It seems a bit much when one well placed shot ends the threat. But my point is that crippling someone would be a very last measure resort, not just to put someone out of action. I only use enough force that is necessary when I have to defend myself so I wouldn't personally cripple anyone unless the situation was very serious.

I don't think that he would be able hurt him, and he had never killed anyone, he is a thief, he is not a threat, and he got killed.

So, that guy is insane, is like saying "I stabed you with a knife, but don't worry I didn't meant it"...

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

This is mostly accurate, but IIRC (feel free to say I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read it), he's killed people for running red lights and stuff.

They retconned that to Frank being mind controlled.

I personally love the Punisher's methods. He really knows how to clean up a messy situation.

@Vance Astro said:

The Black Cat never tried to kill the Punisher.Stilt-Man did.

So? So trying to kill is the same as killing someone, so he deserves to die.

He's not insane.He was trying to teach Spider-Man a lesson.If he thought what he did would have killed or severely hurt Spider-Man he wouldn't have even attempted it. Ever notice how every time he fights, street levelers with no healing factor his claws never touch them?

Is a comicbook, he has not personallity to back up his actions, every writer writes him different, and he would never touch any other street level character with his claws because he is not real.

@The Stegman:

hence why i said theres another method of dealing with super villans that keep breaking out and repeating the same ol thing again, GOVERNMENT EXECUTIONS!!! WHy haven't the world in comic books ever thought about that? Almost every single villian deserves the death sentence, plain and simple.

Its ridiculous, wars happen all the time, people get murdered and massacred on a daily basis, to me the Punisher is just a soldier in a war that is not sanctioned by the government of his country. 5 million viets, cambodians, laotians and many others died in a bullshit vietnam war that only ever happened cos of the US, where is the sadness for them?

So? So trying to kill is the same as killing someone, so he deserves to die.

Is a comicbook, he has not personallity to back up his actions, every writer writes him different, and he would never touch any other street level character with his claws because he is not real.

@Vance Astro said:

Didn't say that.Just debunking the idea that Stilt-Man wasn't a threat.Frank isn't bullet proof.

Yeah, but killing him, Punisher has defeated other guy without killing them.

You completely missed the point.What I was trying to show you was consistency.

Oh, I get it...

Wolverine uses his claws against alot of characters but only when they actually have the durability or healing factor to take the attack.He wouldn't fight a street leveler such as Daredevil the way he fights Sabretooth because he would kill a fellow hero which isn't in his character (based on what's been consistently written for him).Every writer writes him differently but none of them have ever let him use his claws against human street levelers they way he used them against Spider-Man.

Actually Wolverine has used his claws with Daredevil, and other non-powered humans, and he meant to kill them and everyone inbetween.

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

This is mostly accurate, but IIRC (feel free to say I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read it), he's killed people for running red lights and stuff.

They retconned that to Frank being mind controlled.

@InnerVenom123 said:

@Deadcool said:

@JediXMan said:

@Kallarkz said:

He does nothing admirable

Hunting down murders, rapists, sex slavers...

Sounds good to me.

And then he kills them all...

You say "and then he kills them all" as if there's something wrong with that.

My thoughts exactly.

Actually Wolverine has used his claws with Daredevil, and other non-powered humans, and he meant to kill them and everyone inbetween.

@Vance Astro: I have a comic from the late 90s where he killed about a dozen dudes in a bar for no other reason than he flipped out. I have no scans of it because I don't have a scanner tho

@Vance Astro: I have a comic from the late 90s where he killed about a dozen dudes in a bar for no other reason than he flipped out. I have no scans of it because I don't have a scanner tho

@Vance Astro said:

Do you have scans of any instance?

No, sorry, I saw the scans a while ago, it was a DD vs Wolverine fight.

I don't know of one instance where he's actually touched human street leveler's flesh with his claws.Wolverine as far as I know has never tried to kill Daredevil accept maybe in Enemy of the State which doesn't count because he wasn't in his right state of mind.He wouldn't have attacked him that way otherwise.

Well, I will try to find them, also Wolverine has used his against the Captain America.

@JediXMan said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

You say "and then he kills them all" as if there's something wrong with that.

My thoughts exactly.

Because it is...

@Vance Astro said:

@Lvenger said:

@Vance Astro: I was referring to a couple of users earlier but the crippling thing seems a bit much. I'd only cripple someone if it were absolutely necessary and if the situation called for it. For instance, if a criminal were holding someone hostage and I were a police sniper, I would go for a cripple shot then. I don't understand why policemen just cripple dangerous criminals who could be a threat instead of shooting them to death. It seems a bit much when one well placed shot ends the threat. But my point is that crippling someone would be a very last measure resort, not just to put someone out of action. I only use enough force that is necessary when I have to defend myself so I wouldn't personally cripple anyone unless the situation was very serious.

I understand but I don't think crippling is a bit much.You said that you are inspired by Superman's belief to value life.That's easy when you are as powerful as Superman.It's alot easier for Superman to protect Lois Lane and The Kent family than it is for characters like the Punisher,Daredevil,Spider-Man,Wolverine etc. to protect their loved ones.The proof is in how many of them have died.Almost every woman Wolverine has ever loved has been killed,The Punisher's family was slaughtered before his eyes,Alot of Daredevil's girlfriends have been killed as was his father,and so on and so forth.If I was in Spider-Man's shoes I would have either killed or horribly mutilated Norman Osborn by now.Street level heroes more than anyone should know it's kill or be killed out there.

Well Superman has had instances of loved ones being taken away from him. Manchester Black telepathically convinced Superman that he'd murdered Lois and goaded Superman into killing him but Superman resisted that temptation even when he thought Lois was dead and swore to bring MB to justice in the correct fashion. Black then realised he'd become as evil as the people he was fighting/killing against and committed suicide. And Brainiac was indirectly responsible for Jonathan Kent's death which came as a great loss to Superman yet Superman protected Brainiac from getting shot by Zod in Last Stand of New Krypton #3. That strength of moral character in the face of those who have committed numerous atrocities does inspire me.

In relation to your point about Superman's powers enabling him to protect his loved ones, I would refute that a bit. If he came to Earth with slightly less power or different powers than he does possess, it wouldn't change a thing about him. It was the way the Kents raised him that gave Superman his moral compass which wouldn't change regardless of what powers Superman had.

And I don't have Superman's powers (although I wish I did) but if one of my loved ones were taken from me, I would want the murderer brought to justice the proper way. It's what I was raised to believe in and still do. And your last point is subjective given that you and I would have done different things were we in Spider-Man's shoes due to our differing beliefs in what we think would be the right thing to do in that situation.

@X35 said:

Punisher is a brutal murderer with absolutely no desire to change.

Wolverine at heart doesn't want to be the brutal murderer he is.

but he hasn't changed and still is a brutal murderer. wanting to change over what 30 years still at it.

@aussiebushwacker: Wanting to change for 30 years is still 30 years of more desire than the Punisher.

Well Superman has had instances of loved ones being taken away from him. Manchester Black telepathically convinced Superman that he'd murdered Lois and goaded Superman into killing him but Superman resisted that temptation even when he thought Lois was dead and swore to bring MB to justice in the correct fashion. Black then realised he'd become as evil as the people he was fighting/killing against and committed suicide. And Brainiac was indirectly responsible for Jonathan Kent's death which came as a great loss to Superman yet Superman protected Brainiac from getting shot by Zod in Last Stand of New Krypton #3. That strength of moral character in the face of those who have committed numerous atrocities does inspire me.

In relation to your point about Superman's powers enabling him to protect his loved ones, I would refute that a bit. If he came to Earth with slightly less power or different powers than he does possess, it wouldn't change a thing about him. It was the way the Kents raised him that gave Superman his moral compass which wouldn't change regardless of what powers Superman had.

And I don't have Superman's powers (although I wish I did) but if one of my loved ones were taken from me, I would want the murderer brought to justice the proper way. It's what I was raised to believe in and still do. And your last point is subjective given that you and I would have done different things were we in Spider-Man's shoes due to our differing beliefs in what we think would be the right thing to do in that situation.

Exactly, he decides, he wasn't appointed to do this by anyone, the very act of breaking the law for his own twisted sense of "justice" is in and of itself, going above the law, hence, that's why he is known as a criminal among law enforcement and he hero community alike.

The heroes are never 'appointed', unless they are government sponsored, which makes them less heroic. Because the true superhero must be able to step above the law.

That's why I admire the heroes like Punisher, Rorschach or John Dusk (from Absolution comic book). They may be flawed, but they understood what needs to be done. You can't scare villains by the jail - they know they'll be free in no time. They taunt the heroes, "Fine, arrest me, I surrender." But Punisher gives them exactly what they deserve.

@Vance Astro said:

Maybe my point was a bit off because i'm sure at some point every superhero has to deal with their enemies going after their families, I guess I was thinking more about the severity of the attacks on certain characters personal lives and disregarding the fact that like every other character, Superman's villains would be created in a way that they fit his powerset and thus he would have just about the same issues in dealing with villains attacking his life away from the cape.

I don't think heroes should just go around killing their villains but the Punisher's way of thinking about it does have some truth to it.All the characters who consider themselves heroes have enemies and every time they defeat them they allow them to devise another plan of attack and go back at it.If you eliminate them you no longer have that problem.That's why I believe in the method of crippling villains. It's not that it doesn't serve a purpose. Every time that the Avengers or Spider-Man fail to finish off Norman Osborn, his plan of attack gets bigger and better and there are more casualties.Had Peter crippled him years ago, alot of people and energy would have been saved.

You say that if someone takes one of your loved ones away from you , you would want him brought to justice properly..well in some cases what the court system believes is proper justice is the death penalty, is that wrong?

1. That's a fair point. Superman is powerful enough to safeguard his loved ones against his enemies so I can't disagree there.

2. By crippling their villains, the heroes are betraying the values of society that they are fighting to uphold. The end does not justify the means as the means involve a brutal act to achieve the end. A programme I saw a while ago involved someone defending the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima stating that it was necessary to bomb Nagasaki and Hiroshima as it saved millions of lives and ended the war. Then another person, I think it was someone who was a survivor of the bombing turned round to him and said "There are some things even in war we should not do" And that is something I wholeheartedly agree with as inflicting any level of pain upon others is still wrong in any circumstance and does not provide justification to the ends.

3. I live in Britain so I was thinking more of the British Justice system's way of dealing with criminals which is fairer than the way some states in America prefer to deal with criminals. The death penalty is wrong under any circumstance IMO as an "eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" to quote Gandhi.

You can't deny he does GOOD... yes he does it in a ruthless and bloody manner but he still gettinjg criminals off the street

Who knew that there would be sucu a debate over wolverine and Frank,to be honest a character like Frank Castle killing someone who wouldnt have a second thought to hurting the average working joe isnt such a bad idea to me,besides wolverine was never one of my favorite characters anyway...dumbass healing factor. I mean of course its a cool ability but when one of marvels top charecters almost gets killed by some bitch named tigershark,that i think Frank would would have no problem with guttin' his ass and leaving him sinking to the bottom of the like and onto the next mission...i mean come on.

@Lvenger said:

3. I live in Britain so I was thinking more of the British Justice system's way of dealing with criminals which is fairer than the way some states in America prefer to deal with criminals. The death penalty is wrong under any circumstance IMO as an "eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" to quote Gandhi.

Yeah but Justice is blind

@Mutant God: That's only when corrupt people in positions of influence twist the laws so that they don't work in the same way for everyone. Where do you live then?

@Lvenger: America, I was just comparing the two quotes... maybe I should have put lol at the end of the sentence

I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with : le hakes lack tre hipper hook nike tre weaster hunny

By crippling their villains, the heroes are betraying the values of society that they are fighting to uphold. The end does not justify the means as the means involve a brutal act to achieve the end. A programme I saw a while ago involved someone defending the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima stating that it was necessary to bomb Nagasaki and Hiroshima as it saved millions of lives and ended the war. Then another person, I think it was someone who was a survivor of the bombing turned round to him and said "There are some things even in war we should not do" And that is something I wholeheartedly agree with as inflicting any level of pain upon others is still wrong in any circumstance and does not provide justification to the ends.

To go back to the original post, it is so because the Punisher is being written by writers belonging to a western world democracy. Traditional values of those democracies dictate that a man alone shouldn't be entitled to do justice by himself and that the life of criminals can only be taken from them if the People decide so.

The Punisher has decided once and for all that this basic rule doesn't apply to him, so he is being rejected by the rest of the community.

In other cultures, what he does would simply be considered as totally normal and indisputable.

I saw some argued (sorry, can't remember the name) that this conversation is pointless since the Punisher is only a comic book character, well, I disagree: characters like him force us to wonder "what would I do if I were him" or "do I endorse that behavior", which is always interesting. It also induces a reflexion on our modern days societies and their ability to deal with recidivists.

An other interesting question asked by the Punisher is the following: must somebody's life still be respected when this person is only using its life to hurt others repeatedly?

Personally I never bought into the admiration of anti heroes to me their style of justice while effective is as a temporary as superheroes placing criminals in jail. The anti heroes just create another slew of even more violent, psychotic and desperate criminals bringing to us a cycle of endless violence. At least with super heroes when they show a level of compassion and understanding to an enemy theirs some chance of a villain turning good. But I'm sure someone will cal me out saying "Thats so unrealistic!" in a cynical tone in my response good, "realism is overrated." \

As to Wolverine, I hate this version of Wolverine, the Wolverine I knew was accepting of his life as an anti hero, he was an asshole to every hero he came across, him and Captain America hated each like Green Arrow and Flash and I loved their hatred of each other for it, he only played on teams that involved the X-mythos, and overall played the guidance role over the more prominent role like today. To me Wolverine makes a terrible leader and making him one just makes it out of character.

Simply put, Punisher is looked down upon because of his murderous tendencies. Sure he doesn't kill civilians, but he is still murdering people. I think the reason Wolverine doesn't get the same amount of hate is because he is open to other heroes about what he does, why he does it, and why he hates doing it. Frank is a loner who doesn't feel the need to confide in anyone as long as he's doing what he thinks is best.

Honestly, SPock has the best method for taking out super villains right now. In the pages of Superior he HAS killed one villain (an unmerciful serial killer). You can make the argument that it's not his right to determine who lives or dies, but was it the villains right to determine who gets murdered and who is lucky enough not to? Anyways back on point. Since that incident SPock has essentially been crippling his enemies. He hasn't killed since, but none of his villains are going to be physically able to hurt more people, rob more banks, etc.

#10 Posted by Kallarkz (3302 posts) - 1 year, 2 months ago - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Writer fan wanking

Yup.

@Kallarkz said:

He does nothing admirable

Hunting down murders, rapists, sex slavers...

Sounds good to me.

"Hunting them down" is not honorable.

The ends never justify the means as the human concept of right and wrong is always in flux.

You yourself might think its "cool" or "reasonable" to kill them....but in the grand scheme of things no. That is not an admirable task.

I disagree. Murderers, rapists and sex slaver should be hunted down and PUNISHED ( pun very intended)!

@joshmightbe: Wolverine never said he was better then Frank, so don't blame him for what the fans believe. Logan let Frank walk when the Avengers were chasing him. And stood up for Spidey's membership on the Avengers when Cap considered cutting him, despite the fact that Ock kicked his Ass in Avenging.

He gets $h!t done and they're jealous.

@rukm: I think because Logan knew a few of these people before the modern times like Fury, And Rogers. Also the fact that he will play by the rules even if he disagrees. Wolverine started killing as a kid, it's a habit that is hard to break, considering that he was tortured, manipulated, and experimented on does not help things, so many heroes feel sorry for the guy. He is also good with children, and shows remorse for his crimes.

All other Supes know of Frank is what they have heard or seen. He does not talk to them, preference is to steer clear of everyone and that makes it harder for them to see past the killing that he does. For example people would straight run from the Wolfman because there is no reasoning with him. But a Vampire like Angeleus? You might...Might! Be able to talk yourself out of death if he feels it benefits him.

Logan and Frank are the same way. You could talk Logan out of killing someone. Good luck with Castle. Dude would have killed an undercover reporter if not for Venom. Oh and dude becoming Pyre.

Also not all crime fighters look down on him.

Black Widow

Wolverine

Blade

And even Nick Fury respect the guy.

Hell he and Blade hit it off so well Frank offered to help Blade kill some mafia Vampire.

Oh and Electra and Rulk don't mind him either.

Punisher, originally killed anyone who didn't follow the laws. I know when he first appeared he shot someone because the guy jaywalked. Punisher is about killing he is judge jury and executioner. Sometimes its the right thing to do yes but most other times when he is just killing some nameless thug its not.

to those arguing about punisher not being honorable.

You must look at this at a whole scale. Not just a frank castle. Basically the police is corrupted, they know who is killing, drugs and stealing, and yet do nothing. So i respect punisher in what he does. There is no one much like punisher. Punisher knows what goes on in the police force.

And of course punisher has heart. He weeps about his family all the time he as an ex cop knows what goes on, therefore he has every right to punisher the guilty. if punisher wasn't who he was, than he wouldn't be likeable.

I personally think the punisher is cool and i like him more than wolverine.

Not sure why people take such a pro or anti punisher stance. If every single comic character has the same moral stance, it'd be pretty boring

its pretty obvious

@aussiebushwacker: Dude committed his first murder at what? Ten? Not like getting over eating unhealthy.