In my last blog, Death Nor Consequences: Taking the "Hero" Out of "Superhero," I listed some characters that I think aren't being written as very heroic right now, and talked about some of the things that make them unheroic. I made the comment that characters like Punisher, Jason Todd and Wolverine are killers, and therefore not heroes. I received this comment:

"...I disagree about "A killer is not a hero". Evil much of the time is a matter of perspective and it's really a matter of opinion so I won't argue it but I'm sure there are plenty of soldiers who've killed that are also heroes."

Essentially, I think we're probably operating on different definitions for "killer." I wouldn't consider soldiers or cops "killers," just because someone dies at their hands in the line of duty. I'm talking about the cold, remorseless taking of another human life. Soldiers are trained to kill in battle situations, if fighting cannot be avoided. Cops are trained to kill as an absolute last resort. Punisher and Jason Todd see killing as the best way to get the job done. Wolverine varies from writer to writer, but basically sees killing as just another skill set - "I'm the best there is at what I do, and what I do isn't very nice." Some writers make it his last resort, and some make it his first option. When killing is the first and/or best option in a character's eyes, that character is a killer, not a hero with a gun. One real life example...

My dad's a retired police officer. When I was in the last of my teen years, a guy I'd grown up with - let's call him "Buck" - was throwing a loud party across the street, late into the night. My dad wanted to let it go. My cousin had dated Buck's brother, and then another brother, and there were some hard feelings between mine and Buck's families, because of it. Dad didn't want to appear to be taking the opportunity to throw his weight around. Being the neighborhood cop though, a few neighbors finally complained directly to dad, and he was forced to handle it, off-duty. Uniformed officers arrived on scene also, but let dad lead, because he knew my friend.

Stupidly, Buck came out on the deck drunk, and carrying a shotgun. Things escalated verbally until he demanded everyone get off of his property, and he levelled the shotgun at my dad. My dad drew his weapon as well, and while staring down the barrel of the shotgun from across the yard, gave Buck another chance to put the gun down, or he'd be forced to fire. Buck hesitated, but sobered enough to see that my dad was serious, and he put the shotgun down. He was then arrested for drunk and disorderly (when it could have been threatening a police officer, or maybe even attempted murder [he leveled the gun at my dad]) and later said it was the best thing that could have happened to him, as far as straightening him out.

Would my dad have pulled the trigger on my friend? You betcha. Would he have carried that weight around the rest of his life? Yes, but he would have carried it knowing that he exhausted all other possibilities before he fired. Would I have thought of my dad as a killer? Not in the least. What Buck did was stupid. My dad wasn't the only cop there. Buck's lucky one of the cops not staring directly at his gun didn't drop him as soon as he levelled it. Nevermind that my dad didn't fire at him to protect himself.

That's the difference between someone trained to kill and a killer. The scene I just described, had it become lethal, would have been "killing" - the act of someone trained to kill, if necessary. That is not a cold, remorseless "killer," who "shoots first and asks questions later," or just "shoots and asks no questions." Punisher, Jason Todd, and at times Wolverine, do not operate the same way as my dad. They are not looking to lethal force as the last resort. They are using it as the first, best option. They're killers, not heroes who happen to kill when the situation demands it.

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@Gennadius: Let me tell you: my dad is my hero, for real!  The man has done everything: cop, fireman, EMT, CPR/ First Aid Instructor for the Red Cross, Instructor/ owner for a Defensive Driving School, Firing Range Instructor, U.S. Air Force, Civil Air Patrol, NASCAR inspector, played drums in a band, been moose hunting in Alaska, sang bass in the church choir, and even taught Sunday school!  I mean, the man's biggest flaw is that he's too honest, which used to bite him in the butt when he told it like it was, and the brass didn't like hearing it.  He's driven police cars, fire engines, ambulances, eighteen wheelers (I think), motorcycles, and once even had a car that looked something like the Adam West Batmobile.  Upon his death, I half expect to find out that he has a cape and secret lair!  Pft, yeah right!  With all that other stuff, who needs it?  My dad's about as close as you're ever going to come to a real life superhero*!  (*With the exception of one man - see below)
 
The one thing he hasn't done was something he passed up in the 70's: the chance to be part of the ringside show of the WWF!
 
As for "traumatized heroes" - nah, that doesn't fly.  That kind of trauma might cause a person to go on a revenge spree, killing the killers that killed his family, and a sympathetic jury might let him off for that.  However, legally, if that revenge is an immediate thing, then it's "crime of passion," and the trauma might make "temporary insanity" a possibility.  If he goes away from the scene though, and plans his revenge, then it's "premeditated murder," and no matter how justified it might be, he's just as much a killer as the ones who took out his family.  Anyone after the revenge killing is just adding to the bodycount.  The intentions might be good, but the execution (no pun intended) is wrong. 
 
When faced with that kind of trauma in real life, the example to follow is that of John Walsh.  His son was kidnapped and killed, but Walsh focused his grief and anger by building one of the largest crimefighting networks the world has ever seen.  Police and FBI come to him when they are trying to catch the most elusive of felons, and to date, his network has assisted in the capture of 1,128 felons worldwide.  Not in one city, like Batman - worldwide.  And the name of that super crimefighting network?  America's Most Wanted.  John Walsh: modern day badass!

First let me say, your dad is my hero now too.  I am grateful that his training took over in a very dangerous situation and that he made all the right choices.  I really want to thank you for sharing this.  My dad was a Fireman when my mom first met him and then went on to become a Seattle Police officer.  We have that in common, cops kids.  When I was twelve years old my father was disabled in the line of duty and spent many weeks in the hospital with a head injury, even after months/years of physical therapy, he was never quite the same man after that injury.  As the years went on, I am grateful I never forgot the man he had been before.  Like your dad, he was also a hero, my hero.  Makes me a tad teary eyed, full of pride in sharing this with you.  These men, your pops and mine are/were real heroes. 
 
The question of heroes killing vs killers is something I struggle with at times in comics.  For me, if the character and storyline are far enough removed from reality then I can root for a character like Wolverine (who is one of my favorites) and enjoy a brutal battle without too much thought about whether he could have handled the situation differently.   
 
On the otherhand there are some more realistic stories that I have great difficulty with, I am not familiar with the Punisher so I can't comment on that but recently I read a story with a character, that I very much wanted to like, Scarlet.  In my eyes, her actions were too real, when I set the first issue down, I felt a little sick inside.  I couldn't understand how people could be rooting for her, I won't spoil the story for you, I don't know if you plan to read it but she takes the law into her own hands exacting what I think is a brutal act of revenge.  Many people I know here on the vine consider her a hero or anti-hero.  I do not.  And her actions and the story are far too real and close too home,  for me to enjoy what she did as pure fantasy.  I had already subsribed and pre-paid for the next few issues.  When issue #2 arrives in my mail, I will give it another chance but I have already decided that should I not find a different tone, a little bit of "hero" in this character, I will toss the book unfinished and cancel, asking my comic book supplier to please not send me my remaining issues.  
 
I guess with these three examples, your father, Wolverine and Scarlet, I am saying, I completely agree with you on the differences in killing and being a killer.  But at the same time the level of reality at times allows me to read stories like X-Force and not be disturbed by the violence they use that may or may not be the right "heroes" course of action. 
   
Thank you for your story. 

I feel it necessary to respond almost as if I was called out. 
 
Good story about your father.... sounds like a hell of a guy. 
 
What I'm picturing right now is some villain with a gun to a little girls head. A cop is trying to talk him into letting the girl go and put down the gun but the villain is only becoming more angry, crazy, and desperate. In from behind silent like a ninja comes in Wolverine who takes the villains life. The little girl is saved because he did not hesitate to get rid of the threat to innocent life and in the end...  he is a hero. 
 
As for revenge....  what you call murder I call justice.

  This centuries definition of a hero is so convoluted that characters like Jason Todd, and the Punisher are considered heroes.  Where have the good times gone?
 
@IrishX said:

"

I feel it necessary to respond almost as if I was called out. 
 
Good story about your father.... sounds like a hell of a guy. 
 
What I'm picturing right now is some villain with a gun to a little girls head. A cop is trying to talk him into letting the girl go and put down the gun but the villain is only becoming more angry, crazy, and desperate. In from behind silent like a ninja comes in Wolverine who takes the villains life. The little girl is saved because he did not hesitate to get rid of the threat to innocent life and in the end...  he is a hero. 
 
As for revenge....  what you call murder I call justice.

"

"   He's no hero, he put the girls life in danger.  Wolverine is no hero and he most definitely will never be one.  We put our faith in the hands of the law and the law is what decides what murder is and what justice is.
  
  What you call "Justice" is still murder and the person who would go about committing your definition of "Justice" would still go to jail for, about, the rest of their lives. "

U seriously deliver some intence subjects, personaly i figure its the killed individual that maters, If Batman kills joker i wont in the slightest think less of him. Joker is a murdering lunatic an a smart1 at that i always some what frown on Batman n the cops for not doing more. Punisher is not a hero in any sence but we cant deny that he has a good heart, the mafia members an gang bangers he "punishes" is a good thing they would of just goten out an caused problems in the future if put behind bars. Now the goons/lackys of these vilins do they deserve a lost head or anything proubley not they could turn ther path but the biger vilins are definitive in ther bhavior an thers no need to weep over a loss of a man whos killed is killing n will kill again

"First let me say, your dad is my hero now too.  "

"I am grateful that his training took over in a very dangerous situation and that he made all the right choices.  I really want to thank you for sharing this.  My dad was a Fireman when my mom first met him and then went on to become a Seattle Police officer.  We have that in common, cops kids.  When I was twelve years old my father was disabled in the line of duty and spent many weeks in the hospital with a head injury, even after months/years of physical therapy, he was never quite the same man after that injury.  As the years went on, I am grateful I never forgot the man he had been before.  Like your dad, he was also a hero, my hero.  Makes me a tad teary eyed, full of pride in sharing this with you.  These men, your pops and mine are/were real heroes."

"The question of heroes killing vs killers is something I struggle with at times in comics.  For me, if the character and storyline are far enough removed from reality then I can root for a character like Wolverine (who is one of my favorites) and enjoy a brutal battle without too much thought about whether he could have handled the situation differently.   
 
...I guess with these three examples, your father, Wolverine and Scarlet, I am saying, I completely agree with you on the differences in killing and being a killer.  But at the same time the level of reality at times allows me to read stories like X-Force and not be disturbed by the violence they use that may or not be the right "heroes" course of action.    Thank you for your story.  "

"...Thank you for your story.  "

"I feel it necessary to respond almost as if I was called out. 
 
Good story about your father.... sounds like a hell of a guy. 
 
What I'm picturing right now is some villain with a gun to a little girls head. A cop is trying to talk him into letting the girl go and put down the gun but the villain is only becoming more angry, crazy, and desperate. In from behind silent like a ninja comes in Wolverine who takes the villains life. The little girl is saved because he did not hesitate to get rid of the threat to innocent life and in the end...  he is a hero. 
 
As for revenge....  what you call murder I call justice."

"U seriously deliver some intence subjects, personaly i figure its the killed individual that maters, If Batman kills joker i wont in the slightest think less of him. Joker is a murdering lunatic an a smart1 at that i always some what frown on Batman n the cops for not doing more. Punisher is not a hero in any sence but we cant deny that he has a good heart, the mafia members an gang bangers he "punishes" is a good thing they would of just goten out an caused problems in the future if put behind bars. Now the goons/lackys of these vilins do they deserve a lost head or anything proubley not they could turn ther path but the biger vilins are definitive in ther bhavior an thers no need to weep over a loss of a man whos killed is killing n will kill again "

@IrishX:
@Amegashita: No, I meant it: I love it when you and IrishX respond to my blogs.  You guys leave great comments!  I don't always agree, but that's what I like.  The whole reason I do blogs is to get some discussion going.  It's no fun if the only comments you get are "Great blog," or "Hm...," or "Interesting."  Blech.  I like the longer comments that discuss/debate, without attacking.  You guys make it fun. :)

I think killing can be acceptable in some situations. Such as in Death of Superman story where Superman killed Doomsday

"I think killing can be acceptable in some situations. Such as in Death of Superman story where Superman killed Doomsday "

" @cbishop:  Hey, that's what forums are for.  Discussion.  It's no fun when the discussion part isn't taken seriously. "

We live in different worlds... just accept it. You will never convince me of your view so please don't try and  please don't try to speak like your opinion is fact. 

"@cbishop: It is  another great blog and I couldn't agree with you more.  I do not enjoy killing in comics.  Most of the time it is without meaning or advancing the plot or to make a good story.  It is just violence.  What bothers me most about it is it is frozen in an image.  The life leaving the victims face.  The blood a very unreal crimson red.  I have seen death.  I also once had to hold a man twice my age who was hanging himself until the cops came and cut him down.  The look on a person's face who is dying or dead will stay with you forever.  Seeing a horrible graphic image like that sticks in your mind.  When it is just for the sake of violnce and poor story development it makes me mad.   Killing, murder, death are necessary parts of many superhero sagas but the way it is drawn makes a big difference.
 
Your story of your father reminds me a lot of my grandfather as well.  I am sad to say he died only a few months ago.  I spoke at his funeral and my life shut down.  I miss him deeply and a am haunted by his absence..."

"...I do not enjoy killing in comics.  Most of the time it is without meaning or advancing the plot or to make a good story.  It is just violence.  What bothers me most about it is it is frozen in an image.  The life leaving the victims face.  The blood a very unreal crimson red.  ...When it is just for the sake of violnce and poor story development it makes me mad.   Killing, murder, death are necessary parts of many superhero sagas but the way it is drawn makes a big difference. 
 
...I said above...When someone dies there is always someone else who picks up the pieces.  Comic books just change to the next panel and you never see the innocent victims family or even the criminals family pick up the pieces.  If the comic did show this they would look a lot less heroic. 
 
Lets say the guy in your situation is scum but he has two kids at home.  How heroic does Wolverine look to them.  What about the little girl who has to deal with the trauma of seeing a man cut up in front of her eyes instead.  What if Wolverine stabs the guy but he still squezes off the round either deliberately or just as a muscle contracting when he is stabbed.   Another reason a cop would not shoot is because the reflex of the man can still squeeze a trigger.  Shooting or killing is not like it is in TV or in a movie..."

I thought this was very insulting and closed minded.  The very blog is suppose to open up conversation and point out other opinions.  To just  spew your thoughts and give no regard for someone else doesn't make your point any more valid in fact it makes you look like you have a weak position.  Why even bother to post if you have no intention of listening to the other side."

Why bother to post? As you can see from the original post I was quoted as saying I didn't want to argue about this because I felt it was all opinion anyway but that I wanted the OP to know that I felt differently. People like you though feel that their opinion is fact and should not be argued with. When I am spoken to the way Agemashita or You do I will not listen."

 I don't know if I quite agree with the bit about those picking up the pieces making the hero look less heroic.  The family of a victim will usually show that there's not as much glory to the hero's job as one might think.  They may have done a great job stopping the villain that killed the victim, but there was still a victim, and his loved ones are dealing with his death.  The family of a dead villain is ripe for a revenge story, down the line.  That can be hard for the hero to deal with, especially emotionally.  I don't know if it would really make them look less heroic though.

@Amegashita:

@IrishX:

"DC fanboy who dislikes Wolverine so I won't be bothered with your feelings on him." 

"You will never convince me of your view so please don't try"

A killer is the person who kills. A killing in the incident.

" @Gylan Thomas:   Yes but this is about a Hero who has to kill because they have no other option versus a hero who is killing as a first option. "

"A killer is the person who kills. A killing in the incident. "

" @Gylan Thomas:   Yes but this is about a Hero who has to kill because they have no other option versus a hero who is killing as a first option. "

"I see. I should really read a blog before commenting :P "

"@Gylan Thomas:  Yeah, Cbishop hates it when the blog isn't read. "

@Liberty said:

"@cbishop:   I may have been misunderstood here...  What I meant was the victims and other people involved have to pick up the pieces.  Every-time anyone is killed I wonder about their family.   I know this is an old example but everyone knows it.  Doomsday runs in Metropolis and kills construction workers, business men and so on before Superman can stop him.  I always wonder about their families.   
 
Now put this in the frame of a "hero" killing.  Everyone they kill have a family at least a mother and father if not a spouse and children.  Perhaps even siblings.  They probably don't think the murdering hero is that great.  They are going to wonder why he couldn't have stop them safely."

  
Oh!  I think I get you now (correct me if I'm wrong).  Do you mean: Doomsday kills a bunch of people - say it was 123 - so that means 123 funerals?  I wonder about that sometimes.  Superman or someone does a superspeed cleanup of the wreckage, but they never seem to comment on the numbers of funerals being undertaken at once, or show them in the background or anything.  The entire superhero community turned out for Superman's funeral, but yeah, there were an awful lot of families in the background, dealing with other deaths at the same time (and possibly mourning Superman along with their loved ones).  Sometimes, I think a big event fight like Superman/ Doomsday would carry more impact if the funerals were dragged out over a few issues (assuming those issues cover the next few days).  They focused more on the mass destruction than the deaths for that story.  Funerals aren't the only thing, but is this more the kind of thing you're talking about?

@Liberty said:

"This blog is not an attack on Wolverine it is a conversation about heroes who kill versus killing "heroes"  Instead of Wolverine a DC character like Vigilante could have been used."

Vigilante - especially the new one - is more like Punisher than Wolverine.  In fact, they even stole a Punisher line for the new series.  Both characters have been sent to jail, and said something along the lines of, "I'm not trapped in here with them.  They're trapped in here with me."  Vigilante is definitely a remorseless killer. 
 
However, there are characers out there that I could have named in place of Wolverine, that are sometimes "kill first" and other times "kill as a last resort."  Wolverine's just the best known of the lot.  After all, he's the best there is at what he does. ;)

" In my last blog, Death Nor Consequences: Taking the "Hero" Out of "Superhero,"  I listed some characters that I think aren't being written as very heroic right now, and talked about some of the things that make them unheroic.  I made the comment that characters like Punisher, Jason Todd and Wolverine are killers, and therefore not heroes.  I received this comment:  

"...I disagree about "A killer is not a hero". Evil much of the time is a matter of perspective and it's really a matter of opinion so I won't argue it but I'm sure there are plenty of soldiers who've killed that are also heroes."

 
Essentially, I think we're probably operating on different definitions for "killer."  I wouldn't consider soldiers or cops "killers," just because someone dies at their hands in the line of duty.  I'm talking about the cold, remorseless taking of another human life.  Soldiers are trained to kill in battle situations, if fighting cannot be avoided.  Cops are trained to kill as an absolute last resort.  Punisher and Jason Todd see killing as the best way to get the job done.  Wolverine varies from writer to writer, but basically sees killing as just another skill set - "I'm the best there is at what I do, and what I do isn't very pretty."  Some writers make it his last resort, and some make it his first option.  When killing is the first and/or best option in a character's eyes, that character is a killer, not a hero with a gun.  One real life example... 
 
That's the difference between someone trained to kill and a killer.  The scene I just described, had it become lethal, would have been "killing" - the act of someone trained to kill, if necessary.  That is not a cold, remorseless "killer," who "shoots first and asks questions later," or just "shoots and asks no questions."  Punisher, Jason Todd, and at times Wolverine, do not operate the same way as my dad.  They are not looking to lethal force as the last resort.  They are using it as the first, best option.  They're killers, not heroes who happen to kill when the situation demands it. "

"@cbishop:  Even though (Steve) Captain America isn't deputized, he still speaks with the president (see Reborn or return of Capt America). So he (and Avengers) are more unofficial agents of the government. They wouldn't kill anyone, except thousands of unnamed ninjas or thugs, but maybe killing supernatural beings don't count? That's kind of complicated when dealing in fiction because not all characters are "humans", some are AI, some are supernatural, some are already dead and resurrected, some might be aliens or manifestations of something else. It's hard to bring in reality into fiction."

"@cbishop:  ...Whether or not superheroes should kill, is I think, a different question.. :) Personally, I don't like the term "superheroes." I tend to think of things as heroic actions and not as heroic beings. Everyone is fallible and there are very few heroes, but lots of people do heroic actions..."

"@cbishop:  ...I believe that the comics should be written for particular age groups. Someone like Steve Rogers Cap (in my view) is an all ages character, so no killing (except ninjas, cyborgs, monsters, etc.). However, Bucky Cap is a bit different. I see him as a non-all ages character, someone that's more teen/adult, so killing there might be okay when it fits within the story. Nobody should ever be killed just to kill, but it should be part of the story. Punisher is different, because he's not an all-ages character (in my eyes). He's a Mature-Audience (MA) character and he's stories would be written that way - where there's more gray than black/white when dealing with issues..."

"@cbishop: ...What is and isn't heroic changes over time. What's heroic to me now isn't necessary what was heroic to me when I was 10. Our views change as we get older and our tastes in comics change. The problem with character deaths is that they never really die. If the deaths were permanent, then I believe the killing vs not-killing debates would be more intense.   I'd wager that every superhero (that has been around a while) has killed/murdered someone, even if it's an unnamed ninja, vampire, ghost, supernatural being, sentient monster/cyborg/AI, alien, etc. There might be one or two, but the minor unnamed characters seem to not count in deaths/killing for some reason. "

what about hulk in the ultimate universe he killed and ate people ? should he be killed too? he 's also a very conflicted character. 

"what about hulk in the ultimate universe he killed and ate people ? should he be killed too? he 's also a very conflicted character.  "

The obvious explanation is that there are HUGE differences between a confused drunk with a gun who you have a personal connection and the legitimate ice cold killers that Wolverine and Punisher are dealing with. Wolverine and Punisher aren't responding to domestic disturbace calls and killing drunk civilians at the drop of the hat, and the last time Wolverine had to intervene in a volatile domestic situation he got shot point blank in the face with a shot gun and still left the guy alive. The fact of the matter is there is a drastically different operational procedure between dealing with terrorist and mass murders; and dealing with some random drunk guy.

"The obvious explanation is that there are HUGE differences between a confused drunk with a gun who you have a personal connection and the legitimate ice cold killers that Wolverine and Punisher are dealing with. Wolverine and Punisher aren't responding to domestic disturbace calls and killing drunk civilians at the drop of the hat, and the last time Wolverine had to intervene in a volatile domestic situation he got shot point blank in the face with a shot gun and still left the guy alive. The fact of the matter is there is a drastically different operational procedure between dealing with terrorist and mass murders; and dealing with some random drunk guy. "

"@cbishop: i rite all this mumbo jumbo an u pick the guy with 1 paragraph 0.o think im ofended lol. Id have to agree with u there, Punisher is simply a killer, wether thats good or bad is 1s opinion "