The Punisher has had many different writers over the years and some of them have done some really dumb things to Frank Castle.  The stupid things that have happened to Frank Castle have never officially to my knowledge been removed from continuity they just...never get mentioned again…EVER.  So this leads me to ask should some of Frank Castle's history just be removed since it has absolutely no bearing on him and the current writer Greg Rucka literally has to ignore the Punisher's past because of the things the previous two writers did to the Punisher since they weren't loved by fans and the series flopped and Marvel has had to relaunch the Punisher for the third time since Garth Ennis stopped writing the Punisher in the main marvel universe.  Where as the MAX series has been continuous since 2004 only getting renamed with its history intact while being reader friendly.  I mean do we really need to have the Punisher becoming Black as part of his continuity?  

The same thing applies to a lot if not the entirety of Matt Fraction's Punisher War Journal series.  The series is not exactly...loved by Punisher fans.  It was a little hard for someone reading this in MAX  

no

eventually the Vietnam thing will have to go considering they're already pushing credibility with it cause as it stands frank would have to atleast be in his mid fifties by now in order to have been in that war for any reasonable amount of time

My perspective, is that if future writers won't reference it seriously, it does not need to be retconned, essentially it is, Marvel, tends to retcon things, that some writers might actually want to reference and explore that Marvel as a "whole", have decided they don't actually wamt... like some of Morrisons run with X-Men. Retcon was needed so future writers would know, that they can't write stories under the premise that what happened in a past story applies the same way. Fans themselves sort of get to care or not care.

eventually the Vietnam thing will have to go considering they're already pushing credibility with it cause as it stands frank would have to atleast be in his mid fifties by now in order to have been in that war for any reasonable amount of time

eventually the Vietnam thing will have to go considering they're already pushing credibility with it cause as it stands frank would have to atleast be in his mid fifties by now in order to have been in that war for any reasonable amount of time

There's no need to Retcon anything in the comic world. Does anyone mention when Batman used to kill bad guys? No. Does anyone mention Jarvis was a bumbling detective, not a butler? No. Does anyone mention that Reed Richards built his rocket to win against the Russians in the "Space Race" of the 60's? No. Does anyone mention Tony Stark made the Iron Man suit during the Vietnam War? No. Comic Books have a proud history of ignoring things until they die and they should just continue that without trying to change the past of their characters. In my opinion, if Marvel starts retconing all their problems then they're going to wind up with DC's continuity problems

There's no need to Retcon anything in the comic world. Does anyone mention when Batman used to kill bad guys? No. Does anyone mention Jarvis was a bumbling detective, not a butler? No. Does anyone mention that Reed Richards built his rocket to win against the Russians in the "Space Race" of the 60's? No. Does anyone mention Tony Stark made the Iron Man suit during the Vietnam War? No. Comic Books have a proud history of ignoring things until they die and they should just continue that without trying to change the past of their characters. In my opinion, if Marvel starts retconing all their problems then they're going to wind up with DC's continuity problems

@muhabba: DC has had more retcons than any other comic company ever

I think there is no need to retconned, all the Franken-Castle stuff is over and explained. It could be important in some cases that in some way some events during The Punisher history could be remembered or referenced.

@cody1984: Oh, GOD I have "the punisher is black" issues. I couldn't believe what I was reading.

@cody1984: Oh, GOD I have "the punisher is black" issues. I couldn't believe what I was reading.

No I don't think it needs a retcon, I actually liked, some of, the Fraction stuff and the issue you are showing where he is beating that chick is because that's how her and her crime family operated, they were stronger and could do what they wanted, but Frank was stronger then them. Also the reason Frank dressed up as Cap was because Hate Monger was dressed up looking a little to like Cap for Frank's taste and no matter what he thought about Cap he respected him and didn't think his memory should be tarnished like that. The angel thing was also from a Marvel Knights title which has no barring on the regular Marvel continuity.

My last note, Frank's history in Vietnam is barely mentioned, now he's usually just called a soldier and the war he fought in wasn't mentioned, which is good because once you lock that character into a historic event the further you get away from that event the more you have to come up with way to explain him. The only reason it works for guys like Cap and Fury is because of the SSS and Infinity Serum.

Also the reason Frank dressed up as Cap was because Hate Monger was dressed up looking a little to like Cap for Frank's taste and no matter what he thought about Cap he respected him and didn't think his memory should be tarnished like that. 

The angel thing was also from a Marvel Knights title which has no barring on the regular Marvel continuity

My last note, Frank's history in Vietnam is barely mentioned, now he's usually just called a soldier and the war he fought in wasn't mentioned,  

 which is good because once you lock that character into a historic event the further you get away from that event the more you have to come up with way to explain him.

The only reason it works for guys like Cap and Fury is because of the SSS and Infinity Serum.

@muhabba said:

There's no need to Retcon anything in the comic world. Does anyone mention when Batman used to kill bad guys? No. Does anyone mention Jarvis was a bumbling detective, not a butler? No. Does anyone mention that Reed Richards built his rocket to win against the Russians in the "Space Race" of the 60's? No. Does anyone mention Tony Stark made the Iron Man suit during the Vietnam War? No. Comic Books have a proud history of ignoring things until they die and they should just continue that without trying to change the past of their characters. In my opinion, if Marvel starts retconing all their problems then they're going to wind up with DC's continuity problems

Ironman's past has been changed to he made his suit in Afghanistan so has Ms. Marvel with her being in the US air force as a pilot.  So his past as well as Ms. Marvel has been retconned before and I believe the fantastic four's past has been retconned as well but I could be wrong about that. 

Those characters are older than that Punisher.I believe those things have been changed to fit modern standards and not for the heck of it

If there are continuity errors or poorly written arcs attached to him.Join the club.That goes for every Marvel character.

@9th Wonder said: 

Those characters are older than that Punisher.I believe those things have been changed to fit modern standards and not for the heck of it

Actually it was just for the heck of it since they could've just stated Ms Marvel is immortal or just had her and Iron man age in real time.   
                                            

Their is a difference between something being poorly written like Fraction's Jigsaw arc and something that is character ruining like Frankencastle.  If memory serves me right didn't Ironman once become a traitor and Marvel had to retcon the story to state otherwise due to negative fan response.  Since the writer of that story essentially killed the character marvel had to go on erase what he did.    

@9th Wonder said:

@cody1984 said:

@9th Wonder said:

Those characters are older than that Punisher.I believe those things have been changed to fit modern standards and not for the heck of it

Actually it was just for the heck of it since they could've just stated Ms Marvel is immortal or just had her and Iron man age in real time.

Wait what? Ms.Marvel isn't immortal and why would they have Iron Man Age in real time? They'd lose a popular hero...he would be well into his 70's right now.

I'm saying they could've just stated her powers made her immortal. As far as aging in real time goes I believe that was originally the idea at marvel that got changed later.

Nothing is done for no reason.

The Punisher becoming black was done for no reason.

There is no point of retconning Frankcastle.If you don't believe it will be referenced later and he's back to normal,what does it matter?

The fact that it alienated the fan base and makes the characters past unusable since they can't reference events that lead up to the Punisher becoming a frankenstein knock off. So the current writer can't use the Hood as an enemy of Franks because you have to talk about Frankencastle eventually. In other words this event limits writers in what they can do with the Punisher now.

You're afraid that someone who didn't read Punisher before will find out he was a Frankenstein because he got mutilated by Daken?

No I'm afraid marvel in another ten years will come up with another dumbass idea for the Punisher.

It doesn't matter.I feel like Moonstone taking Ms.Marvel's place is the arc that completely brought down her sales causing her book to get cancelled.That doesn't mean I want it removed from either Moonstone or Ms.Marvel's extended history.

I'm sorry but her book was just a mess overall. It wasn't distinctive and seperate from the avengers and just bounced around with no consistency and characters and their stories just got left in limbo through out the book.

I don't know if Iron Man was ever a traitor unless you mean Civil War (which wasn't retconned)

Nope. I believe it was the ninties when he sold out the United States and they retconned his story to it was an evil alternate reality version that did it...or some garbage.

but you can understand why they wouldn't want one of their most popular superheroes being a traitor.

Apparently marvel didn't get it since they let that story get published,

Frankcastle doesn't ruin the Punisher it was just a bad idea.

Fraction and Remender almost ruined the character completely like the Punisher was ruined in the 90's by just having wackiness happen to try and take the Punisher in a completely different direction. In the 90's Frank actually joined the mob and became head of it, killed nick fury, and battled shield and the X-Men.

After the series flopped marvel retconned it out of existense...unfortunately that series led to angel punisher which they didn't retcon out of existence.

Eventually they'd have to change the war (probably to the Iraq War), but honestly, I'd be perfectly ok if they kept Vietnam. Punisher's one of the few characters that wouldn't bother me if they died doing what they do.

I'm saying they could've just stated her powers made her immortal. As far as aging in real time goes I believe that was originally the idea at marvel that got changed later.

Nothing is done for no reason.

The Punisher becoming black was done for no reason.

The fact that it alienated the fan base and makes the characters past unusable since they can't reference events that lead up to the Punisher becoming a frankenstein knock off. So the current writer can't use the Hood as an enemy of Franks because you have to talk about Frankencastle eventually. In other words this event limits writers in what they can do with the Punisher now.

@cody1984

No I'm afraid marvel in another ten years will come up with another dumbass idea for the Punisher.

Apparently marvel didn't get it since they let that story get published,

@cody1984

I'm sorry but her book was just a mess overall. It wasn't distinctive and seperate from the avengers and just bounced around with no consistency and characters and their stories just got left in limbo through out the book.

@cody1984

Fraction and Remender almost ruined the character completely like the Punisher was ruined in the 90's by just having wackiness happen to try and take the Punisher in a completely different direction. In the 90's Frank actually joined the mob and became head of it, killed nick fury, and battled shield and the X-Men.

After the series flopped marvel retconned it out of existense...unfortunately that series led to angel punisher which they didn't retcon out of existence.

My perspective, is that if future writers won't reference it seriously, it does not need to be retconned, essentially it is, Marvel, tends to retcon things, that some writers might actually want to reference and explore that Marvel as a "whole", have decided they don't actually wamt... like some of Morrisons run with X-Men. Retcon was needed so future writers would know, that they can't write stories under the premise that what happened in a past story applies the same way. Fans themselves sort of get to care or not care.

@9th Wonder said:

You took that statement far too literally.Anytime Marvel chooses to retcon something there is a reason behind it.I don't know why the Punisher was black,but obviously he's not anymore.

Their were two reasons why he was turned black one was to have a reason to bring Luke Cage back into the marvel universe...that and the writer trying to comment on what the police did to Rodney King by having black Punisher pulled over by racist cops in Chicago who beat him down like Rodney King was (I could not make that up even if I tried) only to be saved by Luke Cage.

This is past tense though.The Punisher is already back to normal so I'm still not understanding why this matters.Hercules being depowered alienated the fanbase and the book was cancelled.

A better example of the Punisher's fanbase getting alienated would be Batman getting turned into an actual giant bat and having to keep taking pills to prevent him from killing innocent people while teaming up with vampires to fight the catholic church.

@cody1984@cody1984 said:
Apparently they did since they retconned it.

Which they should do with some of the Punisher's past as well.

I don't know how you're getting there's not consistency though when half the stories in the book basically carried over from her first volume.The only parts that weren't carried over from her past where the tie-ins to Marvel events which are also the only parts that had anything to do with her being an Avenger.She was leading her own team before Secret Invasion.Her books isn't any less consistent than anyone elses book.

She went from fighting aliens to being a secret agent in the most jarring way possible. When I said the book lacks consistency it’s because it bounced all over the place between what she dealt with (aliens, AIM, renegade superheroes, alternate versions of herself, etc.). The events of Civil War, Secret Invasion, and Dark Reign (these events hurt a lot of titles) as well as referencing material from the avengers’ series as well as their characters. The title probably would've lasted if it was like the current X-Force title where it’s set in its own corner of the world without having a bunch of crossover events. X-Force and Punisher's MAX series did and still do well because they are set in their own little worlds (The MAX series is literally in another world) where stories flow together much better and are more reader friendly since readers don't have to pick up multiple titles to know what is going on. Another thing IMO that hurt Ms. Marvel's book was that what separated her from others was never really defined. Silver surfer deals with cosmic threats, The Punisher fights crime, the X-men deal with problems mutants face, etc. These characters can and have dealt with other threats before. Silver Surfer stopping Cable, the Punisher helping Ghost Rider defeat blackheart, and the X-Men dealing with non mutant issues. Ms. Marvel never had a particular role to fill here which I believed hurt her title in the long run since if you picked up her book monthly you didn't know what to generally expect. Granted I'm person who doesn't view niche as a bad word like others do. I'm also not trying to say Ms. Marvel shouldn't occasionally deal with aliens and mad wizards it’s just that what she dealt with should've been more consistent.

You can't just go around overwriting everything just because it sucked..

I'm not advocating that. A lot of Punisher stories as well as other character's stories have sucked. I'm talking about getting rid of the complete and utter "wtf were thinking?" moments of the Punisher's past that almost ruined the character forever.

Again, Marvel will has made mistakes and they will continue to do so but just because some fans didn't like it doesn't mean they should pretend it didn't happen.

Actually Rucka and marvel literally have to since if they don't act like it never happened by not mentioning those events the current Punisher series in 616 will end up getting dropped again due to lack of sales.

Especially when the character has moved on to something new

Which marvel has the current writer doing because trying to avoid the mistakes Marvel and the previous two writers committed. Sort of what Ennis had to do as well when he wrote Welcome Back Frank ignoring past events.

Their were two reasons why he was turned black one was to have a reason to bring Luke Cage back into the marvel universe...that and the writer trying to comment on what the police did to Rodney King by having black Punisher pulled over by racist cops in Chicago who beat him down like Rodney King was (I could not make that up even if I tried) only to be saved by Luke Cage.

A better example of the Punisher's fanbase getting alienated would be Batman getting turned into an actual giant bat and having to keep taking pills to prevent him from killing innocent people while teaming up with vampires to fight the catholic church.

Which they should do with some of the Punisher's past as well.

She went from fighting aliens to being a secret agent in the most jarring way possible. When I said the book lacks consistency it’s because it bounced all over the place between what she dealt with (aliens, AIM, renegade superheroes, alternate versions of herself, etc.). The events of Civil War, Secret Invasion, and Dark Reign (these events hurt a lot of titles) as well as referencing material from the avengers’ series as well as their characters. The title probably would've lasted if it was like the current X-Force title where it’s set in its own corner of the world without having a bunch of crossover events. X-Force and Punisher's MAX series did and still do well because they are set in their own little worlds (The MAX series is literally in another world) where stories flow together much better and are more reader friendly since readers don't have to pick up multiple titles to know what is going on. Another thing IMO that hurt Ms. Marvel's book was that what separated her from others was never really defined. Silver surfer deals with cosmic threats, The Punisher fights crime, the X-men deal with problems mutants face, etc. These characters can and have dealt with other threats before. Silver Surfer stopping Cable, the Punisher helping Ghost Rider defeat blackheart, and the X-Men dealing with non mutant issues. Ms. Marvel never had a particular role to fill here which I believed hurt her title in the long run since if you picked up her book monthly you didn't know what to generally expect. Granted I'm person who doesn't view niche as a bad word like others do. I'm also not trying to say Ms. Marvel shouldn't occasionally deal with aliens and mad wizards it’s just that what she dealt with should've been more consistent.

I'm not advocating that. A lot of Punisher stories as well as other character's stories have sucked. I'm talking about getting rid of the complete and utter "wtf were thinking?" moments of the Punisher's past that almost ruined the character forever.

Actually Rucka and marvel literally have to since if they don't act like it never happened by not mentioning those events the current Punisher series in 616 will end up getting dropped again due to lack of sales.

Which marvel has the current writer doing because trying to avoid the mistakes Marvel and the previous two writers committed. Sort of what Ennis had to do as well when he wrote Welcome Back Frank ignoring past events.

@9th Wonder said:

You said that there was no reason and now you're saying there's two.I don't get it.

Their was no reason for it. The Punisher could've just as easily have gotten caught and tortured by gangsters with Luke Cage saving him. The writer of the book wanted to state how wrong it was for Rodney King to get beaten up by the police in the most stupid way possible.

How is this a better example.It was a stupid idea that is now obsolete.How are you alienated by something that the character has long moved on from? Batman is still immensely popular.

It gives people unfamiliar with the Punisher a better idea of how wrong it was. Also didn't you say marvel did the right thing retconning Ironman not being a traitor?

There isn't a good reason to do that.They could always just ignore it and it wouldn't effect the Punisher.

It gets to the point where a characters history becomes convoluted to the point where it doesn't make sense at all. Take Frank not being in his sixties and being a Vietnam War Veteran. Him dying and coming back from the grave explains this but the events that brought him back from the grave literally can't be talked about since they pissed off the majority of Punisher fans and the ideas flopped.

Ms.Marvel doesn't have much of a rouge gallery left after her first series but the Brood (aliens) is an enemy that carried over from Volume 1.

Which was many years ago. Which makes her book come off as pretty rough to read for someone who is somewhat unfamiliar with the character and her history. The current X-Force and Punisher MAX series you didn't need to read past titles to get into them and they have done surprisingly well.

So I don't really get how you're saying it lacks consistency.

I really don't see how you don't understand my point about it lacking consistency.

The type things she dealt with was diverse because of the circumstance of what was happening in the Marvel Universe.

Which was part of the problem and is the reason why I made the comparison between her series and X-Force and Punisher MAX.

As far as what you're saying about Ms.Marvel never being defined as far as what separated her from others doesn't make any sense.

She was created as a female version of Captain Marvel. Essentially Ms. Marvel, She Hulk, and Spider Woman are knock offs of male characters which does hurt them from carrying their own title to this day. She really doesn't have anything really character defining to help her. The whole being raped and impregnated by her son also really screwed up her continuity.

You can say that about mot street levelers.The Punisher fights crime but the only thing that makes him different from Moon Knight or Daredevil is his lack of powers,his different skill set,and his personality.

The Punisher has also been doing it for decades, uses lethal force, and has history of becoming the Punisher besides his family getting killed. The events that happened to him in Vietnam, The Punisher deciding not to become a priest, and what he witnessed a mobsters kid to his friends during his childhood. Anyway the point I was making is when you pick up a Punisher comic you tend to know what to expect with Ms. Marvel you didn't and I think that hurt the character's series not helped it.

Which is the same only thing that separates Ms.Marvel and other superhuman heroes.They all fight the same characters.

Which tends to be a pretty bad thing about comics because villains start using uniqueness and new or rising characters just get the same old villains thrown at them instead of creating new ones for them to deal with.

It didn't ruin the character though.That's the point i'm making.It wasn't a good idea in your opinion and the opinion of others but retconning it serves no purpose if they've already moved on.

Again, it did since the book got dropped again and the last several years of Punisher stories were essentially for nothing since none of it can be referenced without risking alienating the character's fan base.

I highly doubt that people will drop a book because of the mention of an arc that sucked.Unless they actually build another arc around it (which isn't the same as simply mentioning it) then I don't see why sales would drop.

Well Marvel and greg Rucka aren't going to take that chance and have stated as much in interviews.

@cody1984 said:

Ennis..you mean the guy who tried to make the Punisher look better by poorly writing Wolverine?

I mean Ennis as the guy who brought Punisher back from obscurity and gave Frank his balls back. If it wasn't for him their wouldn't even been a Punisher comic released over the last 11 years and we wouldn't have two comics released monthly as there is now. Their is a reason why Garth Ennis deservedly is considered the Real Daddy of the Punisher and even Rucka has stated his run was definitive. As far as wolverine goes Ennis hates superhero comics that is well known and Marvel made him have to include superheroes in his Punisher marvel knights series is why he wrote what he did. If you think that's bad read the Boys.

Their was no reason for it. The Punisher could've just as easily have gotten caught and tortured by gangsters with Luke Cage saving him. The writer of the book wanted to state how wrong it was for Rodney King to get beaten up by the police in the most stupid way possible.

It gives people unfamiliar with the Punisher a better idea of how wrong it was. Also didn't you say marvel did the right thing retconning Ironman not being a traitor?

There isn't a good reason to do that.They could always just ignore it and it wouldn't effect the Punisher.

It gets to the point where a characters history becomes convoluted to the point where it doesn't make sense at all. Take Frank not being in his sixties and being a Vietnam War Veteran. Him dying and coming back from the grave explains this but the events that brought him back from the grave literally can't be talked about since they pissed off the majority of Punisher fans and the ideas flopped.

Ms.Marvel doesn't have much of a rouge gallery left after her first series but the Brood (aliens) is an enemy that carried over from Volume 1.

Which was many years ago. Which makes her book come off as pretty rough to read for someone who is somewhat unfamiliar with the character and her history. The current X-Force and Punisher MAX series you didn't need to read past titles to get into them and they have done surprisingly well.

So I don't really get how you're saying it lacks consistency.

I really don't see how you don't understand my point about it lacking consistency.

The type things she dealt with was diverse because of the circumstance of what was happening in the Marvel Universe.

Which was part of the problem and is the reason why I made the comparison between her series and X-Force and Punisher MAX.

As far as what you're saying about Ms.Marvel never being defined as far as what separated her from others doesn't make any sense.

She was created as a female version of Captain Marvel. Essentially Ms. Marvel, She Hulk, and Spider Woman are knock offs of male characters which does hurt them from carrying their own title to this day. She really doesn't have anything really character defining to help her. The whole being raped and impregnated by her son also really screwed up her continuity.

Again, it did since the book got dropped again and the last several years of Punisher stories were essentially for nothing since none of it can be referenced without risking alienating the character's fan base.

@cody1984 said:

Ennis..you mean the guy who tried to make the Punisher look better by poorly writing Wolverine?

I mean Ennis as the guy who brought Punisher back from obscurity and gave Frank his balls back. If it wasn't for him their wouldn't even been a Punisher comic released over the last 11 years and we wouldn't have two comics released monthly as there is now. Their is a reason why Garth Ennis deservedly is considered the Real Daddy of the Punisher and even Rucka has stated his run was definitive. As far as wolverine goes Ennis hates superhero comics that is well known and Marvel made him have to include superheroes in his Punisher marvel knights series is why he wrote what he did. If you think that's bad read the Boys.

@9th Wonder said:

There wasn't a good reason for it but there was a reason.

I believe this falls under just doing it for the heck of it.

It's nitpicking is what it is.Every superhero has crappy arcs that their fans would like to forget in their pasts.Just because you retcon Frankcastle doesn't mean that people won't ever get a hold of it or find out that it happened.We can try and forget things or pretend they didn't happen but at the end of the day they still happened.

If they get a hold of it and read it and find out its not in continuity I'd imagine they breath a sigh of relief if they like the Punisher character.

There isn't a good reason to do that.They could always just ignore it and it wouldn't effect the Punisher.
Where are you getting this idea that mentioning an arc that Punisher fans didn't like in a comic will some how cause the book to fail? You think Frank is the only character with a nonsensical age explanation?

His age has been explained while keeping him tied to his origins unlike most other characters who have to have it constantly change over the years. The problem is you can't mention these previous story arcs which explain why since they were just god awful and remembered negatively.

That arc may have pissed people off but the fact he's not the age he's supposed to be because something that happened in his history isn't at all important to his future.

If you want to keep his history of being in Vietnam veteran and still being in his thirties than yeah you have to explain it.

None of this is really relevant to the original point that I was making.Her book fell off during Dark Reign because of what had been done to the character.

Which goes back to inconsistency and being tied into way to many events.

Whether her book lacked consistency or whatever else you're saying is your personal thoughts on the series.

That goes for you as well saying her book was consistent.

Tie-ins to events and being an active member of the Mighty Avengers worked well in her favor.

Didn't you just get done stating that her book ended up getting dropped because of Dark Reign?

What you're saying about Ms.Marvel,She-Hulk,and Spider-Woman being "knock-offs" isn't even true.

How do you come up with that? She Hulk is a female version of the Hulk, Ms. Marvel a female version of Captain Marvel, Spiderwoman a female version of Spiderman. Granted they have differences between their male counter parts but essentially they are knock offs.

It actually does the exact opposite for them.Why do you think Marvel changed Arana into Spider-Girl? Because they can use Spider-Man to sell Arana.

That's what I mean by being knock offs. Using the success of other books to try and sell more by making female versions of the characters.

Marvel ties their female characters to popular male characters because female characters don't sell well.

Essentially making them knock offs.

If Punisher fans are that sensitive maybe he shouldn't have a book.

A lot of Punisher fans did state that they would rather just have the 616 book dropped forever and just have the MAX series than have stupid things like Frankencastle happen to Frank. The reason why is they are tired of having their favorite character get ****ed over by writers and marvel and being expected to be thankful for this asking "please sir, can I have some more?". Remender doesn't like criticism and was a bit of an ass to the people who didn't like him screwing up the Punisher.

I know who Garth Ennis is.

Then don't bother making such a comment trying to downgrade the greatest Punisher writer then.

I believe this falls under just doing it for the heck of it.

If they get a hold of it and read it and find out its not in continuity I'd imagine they breath a sigh of relief if they like the Punisher character.

His age has been explained while keeping him tied to his origins unlike most other characters who have to have it constantly change over the years. The problem is you can't mention these previous story arcs which explain why since they were just god awful and remembered negatively.

If you want to keep his history of being in Vietnam veteran and still being in his thirties than yeah you have to explain it.

Which goes back to inconsistency and being tied into way to many events.

That goes for you as well saying her book was consistent.

Didn't you just get done stating that her book ended up getting dropped because of Dark Reign?

How do you come up with that? She Hulk is a female version of the Hulk, Ms. Marvel a female version of Captain Marvel, Spiderwoman a female version of Spiderman. Granted they have differences between their male counter parts but essentially they are knock offs.

That's what I mean by being knock offs. Using the success of other books to try and sell more by making female versions of the characters.

A lot of Punisher fans did state that they would rather just have the 616 book dropped forever and just have the MAX series than have stupid things like Frankencastle happen to Frank. The reason why is they are tired of having their favorite character get ****ed over by writers and marvel and being expected to be thankful for this asking "please sir, can I have some more?". Remender doesn't like criticism and was a bit of an ass to the people who didn't like him screwing up the Punisher.

Then don't bother making such a comment trying to downgrade the greatest Punisher writer then.

She went from fighting aliens to being a secret agent in the most jarring way possible. When I said the book lacks consistency it’s because it bounced all over the place between what she dealt with (aliens, AIM, renegade superheroes, alternate versions of herself, etc.). The events of Civil War, Secret Invasion, and Dark Reign (these events hurt a lot of titles) as well as referencing material from the avengers’ series as well as their characters. The title probably would've lasted if it was like the current X-Force title where it’s set in its own corner of the world without having a bunch of crossover events. X-Force and Punisher's MAX series did and still do well because they are set in their own little worlds (The MAX series is literally in another world) where stories flow together much better and are more reader friendly since readers don't have to pick up multiple titles to know what is going on. Another thing IMO that hurt Ms. Marvel's book was that what separated her from others was never really defined. Silver surfer deals with cosmic threats, The Punisher fights crime, the X-men deal with problems mutants face, etc. These characters can and have dealt with other threats before. Silver Surfer stopping Cable, the Punisher helping Ghost Rider defeat blackheart, and the X-Men dealing with non mutant issues. Ms. Marvel never had a particular role to fill here which I believed hurt her title in the long run since if you picked up her book monthly you didn't know what to generally expect. Granted I'm person who doesn't view niche as a bad word like others do. I'm also not trying to say Ms. Marvel shouldn't occasionally deal with aliens and mad wizards it’s just that what she dealt with should've been more consistent.

I think there is no need to retconned, all the Franken-Castle stuff is over and explained. It could be important in some cases that in some way some events during The Punisher history could be remembered or referenced

My perspective, is that if future writers won't reference it seriously, it does not need to be retconned, essentially it is, Marvel, tends to retcon things, that some writers might actually want to reference and explore that Marvel as a "whole", have decided they don't actually wamt... like some of Morrisons run with X-Men. Retcon was needed so future writers would know, that they can't write stories under the premise that what happened in a past story applies the same way. Fans themselves sort of get to care or not care.

@9th Wonder said:

Not when you can actually state a reasoning behind it.

It wasn't a reason it was "screw it let's do something crazy!!!"

Again,why does it matter if it's something that the writers have undone already? The Punisher isn't Frankencastle.Why would it matter if he was if he isn't now and never will be again?

Because it was disgrace to the character the same way Ironman was disgraced when he became a traitor to the United States.

That's clearly nitpicking.If you like the Punisher then why would you be dwelling on a garbage arc?

It wasn't just bad it was ruining the character for ***** and giggles.

I'll ask this again..why does it matter if those arcs weren't any good.Why can you not simply mention something without people whining about it?

Because they were both a giant **** you to the fan base perhaps? Maybe because the series had to get dropped and relaunched with new writers to fix the character so the Punisher wouldn't fade into obscurity? You know little things like that.

Which they have.

Not when they can't talk about it and it becomes a kind of sorta of situation.

That makes no sense.Most popular heroes have had tie-ins to every major event.The event covers the biggest occurrence in the Marvel Universe at that time.

You just stated in your previous post that Dark Reign killed the Ms. Marvel series with moonstone taking over as Ms Marvel. So what your saying here makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Therefore having the character have a tie-in where there role is important in that arc helps increase sales.There's no such thing as being tied to way too many events.

Fraction's Punisher War Journal series shows otherwise.

What you're saying about consistency is actually just false but there is no point in arguing about it because you obviously for some reason think what you're saying is correct and since it actually had nothing to do with my point I should have ignored in the first place.

Dude if you can't prove what I stated as false than don't claim it was. Your entitled to your own opinion but don't try and say my opinion of that title is false without giving me a real example of why it actually was. I'll agree to disagree with you but don't try to "correct me" because you feel differently.

Ms.Marvel as in Carol Danvers didn't have a role in Dark Reign until War of the Marvels.She couldn't use her powers for several issues and then she "died" and Moonstone took her spot.

Which you claimed killed her series with Moonstone taking over and wouldn't have happened unless Dark Reign happened.

When I said events I meant House of M,Civil War,Initiative,& Secret Invasion.

You said "big events" you didn't state only specific events.

Obviously all the ones that came before the one I previously told you killed her book.

Which goes back my point about to many tie ins with Dark Reign according to you killing her series.

When she was a Mighty Avenger they were the most important Avengers team in every event.Dark Reign was the event that took that away.

Again going back to my point about big events hurting her book.

You completely misunderstood.I'm not disagreeing they are knock-offs.

You stated they were knock offs in your previous posts.

What I disagreed with is you saying that being a knock-off hurts them as characters because they have nothing that sets them apart from the hero they are created from when in actuality it does the exact opposite.

It hurts the characters gaining their own identity since people will always think of a character like Spiderwoman as a knock off of Spiderman not allowing Jessica Drew to completely come into her own.

It allows them to gain interest off the popularity of a character that is already popular. Both Marvel and DC do this.

How many of them are actually able to hold a regular monthly title year in year out?

They've never put out a comic for a character that isn't "knock-off" and it was successful.Ms.Marvel & She-Hulk are the only female characters with more than one volume of comics that lasted over 20 issues.

How many comics does Wonder Woman have exactly?

I understand what you're saying.Nobody likes for their favorite character to have a bunch of horrible arcs written about them.I believe the issue is they've run out of ideas.Which is why you get an arc like Frankencastle.Marvel is doing all they can to try and have him remain relevant.

I think you miss my point here. It's not one or two lousy stories...it's character derailment.

He can be the greatest Punisher writer in your eyes or anyone else's eyes but to Wolverine fans he's that guy who perpetuates the stereotype that Wolverine rarely uses his skills and makes a mockery of his healing factor.

Wolverine has been mocked for worse by others writing him then Ennis. Wolverine's revenge fight against the Punisher led to the whole you ran me over with a steam roller so I'll call you gay moment. Seriously do a google search of "wolverine's most embarrassing moments" and people list his revenge fight against the Punisher as far worse offense.

Both of you got good arguments. I am a Punisher fan for more or less 15 years. I have seen Frank's face got messed up permanently by the jigsaw and healed by the Rev, his skin became black, his memories got messed up by the Spook when he was arrested by the shield and killed Nick Fury, manipulated by a a machine created by Hate monger that made him kill an innocent thanks to Fraction's genious and recently cut to pieces by Daken and revived as Franken-Castle. Later he healed his wounds with the Bloodstone and rejuvenated.

I didn't like seen my favorite character got messed up in this recent events as Franken-Castle but i like it him to be rejuvenated.

How many times he's got in dangerous situations because he didnt have reflexes because of his age? In a way i think it was good to have him back in his 30's.

For how much we struggle in 616 this things can happen, in a world flooding of super-heroes and mistic powers but we don't have to like it. But accepting it, there's nothing we can do.

We can always have the MAX world, it has good and not so good arc's but till today they didn't messed up the character in my opinion, for the contrary i think it helped to put Frank's in a good way in the 616 due his sales.

The problem of many writters is that they understimate the potential of the Punisher and don't know the character at all, that was the problem with many of the writters in these years and recently we have the examples of Fraction and Remender.

The Punisher over this years has got many bad writters but i think every comic character has suffered from that. In my opinion The Punisher is not a character of "first line" in the Marvel world and they didn't put too much effort finding good writters.

I like it the Punisher in the late 80's and early 90's with Steven Grant, Mike Baron, Carl Potts and Chuck Dixon. It was a different Punisher, in that time he got some "feelings" and not a killing machine we see today which is good also thanks to Garth Ennis.

Now with Greg Rucka, from what i have read i think things will be better from now on. We deserve that. He don't need to explain a thing about Franken-Castle but can explain about him getting young for example or don't have to explain a thing about anything.

Frank's will respond with bullets for sure.

@Captain Danvers said:

@cody1984 said:

She went from fighting aliens to being a secret agent in the most jarring way possible. When I said the book lacks consistency it’s because it bounced all over the place between what she dealt with (aliens, AIM, renegade superheroes, alternate versions of herself, etc.). The events of Civil War, Secret Invasion, and Dark Reign (these events hurt a lot of titles) as well as referencing material from the avengers’ series as well as their characters. The title probably would've lasted if it was like the current X-Force title where it’s set in its own corner of the world without having a bunch of crossover events. X-Force and Punisher's MAX series did and still do well because they are set in their own little worlds (The MAX series is literally in another world) where stories flow together much better and are more reader friendly since readers don't have to pick up multiple titles to know what is going on. Another thing IMO that hurt Ms. Marvel's book was that what separated her from others was never really defined. Silver surfer deals with cosmic threats, The Punisher fights crime, the X-men deal with problems mutants face, etc. These characters can and have dealt with other threats before. Silver Surfer stopping Cable, the Punisher helping Ghost Rider defeat blackheart, and the X-Men dealing with non mutant issues. Ms. Marvel never had a particular role to fill here which I believed hurt her title in the long run since if you picked up her book monthly you didn't know what to generally expect. Granted I'm person who doesn't view niche as a bad word like others do. I'm also not trying to say Ms. Marvel shouldn't occasionally deal with aliens and mad wizards it’s just that what she dealt with should've been more consistent.

What makes you think that Ms.Marvel would have done better if it was anything like X-Force. You do realize they are essentially the X-men right? The X-men are very popular aren't they? What makes you think it's the writing on X-Force and not the characters that makes it popular? The consistency thing has been addressed but it's just not true.

X-Force as it is now is the Punisher style X-men. Anyway the point was and still is that the series was not tied majorly into others allowing at least initially (I read the series through marvel digital comics) more freedom for the writers to have a well balanced story arcs that flowed together much more nicely. The same goes for the Punisher's MAX series as well. I'm not talking about the content differences between the books I'm talking about the stories building off each other and being easier to follow than that of Ms. Marvel's series. If you want another example I would say that Mystique's miniseries (granted it was a miniseries) flowed much better then Ms. Marvel's series as well the same goes from what I've read of Alias as well. These felt more like graphic novels (especially punisher max) than a bunch of single issue comics which the Ms. Marvel series was written as. What I mean by that is Ms. Marvel's series felt like it could get cancelled at anytime so they jammed as much as they could into each issue thinking that the book could get dropped at any moment. Granted the book had these big events which majorly interrupted trying to write long detailed story arcs that flowed together nicely. For the record I actually do like the Ms. Marvel character but I couldn't stand her series (yes I read all of it) because it just felt poorly written.

It wasn't a reason it was "screw it let's do something crazy!!!"

Because it was disgrace to the character the same way Ironman was disgraced when he became a traitor to the United States.

It wasn't just bad it was ruining the character for ***** and giggles.

Not when they can't talk about it and it becomes a kind of sorta of situation.

You said "big events" you didn't state only specific events.

Dude if you can't prove what I stated as false than don't claim it was. Your entitled to your own opinion but don't try and say my opinion of that title is false without giving me a real example of why it actually was. I'll agree to disagree with you but don't try to "correct me" because you feel differently.

Which you claimed killed her series with Moonstone taking over and wouldn't have happened unless Dark Reign happened.

How many of them are actually able to hold a regular monthly title year in year out?

It hurts the characters gaining their own identity since people will always think of a character like Spiderwoman as a knock off of Spiderman not allowing Jessica Drew to completely come into her own.

Again going back to my point about big events hurting her book.

How many comics does Wonder Woman have exactly?

I think you miss my point here. It's not one or two lousy stories...it's character derailment.

Wolverine has been mocked for worse by others writing him then Ennis. Wolverine's revenge fight against the Punisher led to the whole you ran me over with a steam roller so I'll call you gay moment. Seriously do a google search of "wolverine's most embarrassing moments" and people list his revenge fight against the Punisher as far worse offense.

X-Force as it is now is the Punisher style X-men. Anyway the point was and still is that the series was not tied majorly into others allowing at least initially (I read the series through marvel digital comics) more freedom for the writers to have a well balanced story arcs that flowed together much more nicely. The same goes for the Punisher's MAX series as well. I'm not talking about the content differences between the books I'm talking about the stories building off each other and being easier to follow than that of Ms. Marvel's series. If you want another example I would say that Mystique's miniseries (granted it was a miniseries) flowed much better then Ms. Marvel's series as well the same goes from what I've read of Alias as well. These felt more like graphic novels (especially punisher max) than a bunch of single issue comics which the Ms. Marvel series was written as. What I mean by that is Ms. Marvel's series felt like it could get cancelled at anytime so they jammed as much as they could into each issue thinking that the book could get dropped at any moment. Granted the book had these big events which majorly interrupted trying to write long detailed story arcs that flowed together nicely. For the record I actually do like the Ms. Marvel character but I couldn't stand her series (yes I read all of it) because it just felt poorly written.

@9th Wonder said:

You're just saying anything now.

No I'm stating it was done for the heck of it.

These two situations actually have nothing to do with each other. You can't compare them. They aren't just two bad arcs one instance would have harmed the character in the future.The other one is completely irrelevant to the characters future.

Their both character derailment.

I don't understand how a decision that's been overturned ruins the character for the present when it's over and done with.

Because it ruins the characters past and leaves a tarnished mark on the characters history.

They absolutely can "talk about it".

Not when its a hated failure.

Along with that I stated being in the Mighty Avengers..I also previously stated Dark Reign killed her book.I assumed you could come to the conclusion of what I meant on your own.

You said big event Dark Reign was a big event. Don't talk to me coming to a certain conclusion when you are contradicting yourself.

I don't really have to prove anything.It wasn't relevant to my point and I shouldn't have even responded to it.I still believe what you said is false and it's not going to change just because i'm not going to bother getting into a off-topic argument about something that has no relevance.

You can believe my opinion is wrong but trying to state its wrong by just saying so was what annoyed me.

This is obvious and I don't understand why you're stating it at all.

The point was you were stating big events didn't hurt her book yet dark reigned a big event killed it. In other words you are contradicting yourself.

Marvel hasn't quite mastered it yet but DC seems to do it pretty well.Batgirl has had a long running series and just rebooted,Supergirl ended Volume 5 before the reboot,Power Girl who is essentially Supergirl was a popular series before the reboot,Harley Quinn (Joker knock-off) who isn't even a main villain had a 38 issue series.Female characters don't tend to sell but in Marvel's case the ones who you call knock-offs do alot better than ones who aren't.

DC does better with selling female characters that is true but correct me if I'm wrong here but I believe marvel is lot quicker to drop a book with lower sales figures.

Black Widow has 4 volumes but their all really short.I don't remember any of them being over 10 issues,Silver Sable hasn't had a book since the 90's,Storm has only has miniseries,as has Scarlet Witch,but characters like She-Hulk,Spider-Girl,Ms.Marvel,have had ongoing series that in only two volumes surpass the number of books

Spider girl did last a while I'll give you that but it barely lasted dodging the bullet of getting cancelled quite often.

Bendis' Spider-Woman book did well sales wise and only ended because Maleev needed a break.

How many issues was it again?

If selling comics had anything to do with originality then so many characters wouldn't have borrowed characteristics from each others...and that doesn't just go for characters you are calling knock-offs that goes for characters that have fairly original concepts.

Characters created as knock offs can sell but the characters that aren't knock offs tend to have a lot more issues put out. Vampirella, Witchblade, and Wonderwoman have more of their own comics put out then Ms. Marvel, Spider Woman, and She Hulk.

Terrible point to make.One event ruined her book not all of them.The events where she had a role (everyone before Dark Reign) helped her tremendously.

It was a big event that killed her book so the point about big events stands.

I forgot to say "Marvel Female characters".Wonder Woman would be irrelevant to that statement.

Yeah I thought you say something like that.

It really isn't.They didn't derail Punisher.His character conceptually has been the same since day one.

Bull****. They tried to change the character completely several times with the Punisher deciding willingly to join the mob...you know the guys he's been killing for decades. When he was angel punisher he didn't kill band guys in his second miniseries saying that they learned their lesson...way way way out of character. Hell the trope even lists Punisher Purgatory as a prime example of Character derailment.

Why you think this makes Ennis' poor treatment of Wolverine any better is beyond my comprehension.

I'm going to be honest and say I don't care how you feel about the way wolverine was treated. He got made to look like an ass that is true but his character wasn't derailed like the Punisher has been and that is a huge difference.

@Captain Danvers said:

@cody1984 said:

X-Force as it is now is the Punisher style X-men. Anyway the point was and still is that the series was not tied majorly into others allowing at least initially (I read the series through marvel digital comics) more freedom for the writers to have a well balanced story arcs that flowed together much more nicely. The same goes for the Punisher's MAX series as well. I'm not talking about the content differences between the books I'm talking about the stories building off each other and being easier to follow than that of Ms. Marvel's series. If you want another example I would say that Mystique's miniseries (granted it was a miniseries) flowed much better then Ms. Marvel's series as well the same goes from what I've read of Alias as well. These felt more like graphic novels (especially punisher max) than a bunch of single issue comics which the Ms. Marvel series was written as. What I mean by that is Ms. Marvel's series felt like it could get cancelled at anytime so they jammed as much as they could into each issue thinking that the book could get dropped at any moment. Granted the book had these big events which majorly interrupted trying to write long detailed story arcs that flowed together nicely. For the record I actually do like the Ms. Marvel character but I couldn't stand her series (yes I read all of it) because it just felt poorly written.

X-Force is still essentially the X-men. The style of the book doesn't change the fact that it is what it is because X-men is already a popular series and Wolverine who has a major role on that team is one of the most popular characters in comics. Just because they story arcs don't involve tons of cameos and tie-ins to other things doesn't change the fact that they are X-men. I'm not understanding what this has to do with Ms.Marvel though or why you think separating her from the Avengers or events would have helped her. As far as what you say about Ms.Marvel's series being all over the place..I don't get how someone reads that in it's entirety and says this.It's a pretty straight forward book.I don't really know how to even begin to argue against it because it doesn't make any sense. Yea, Alias flowed better, it's Jessica Jones origin story.Of course it did.She wasn't responsible for as much as Ms.Marvel. Purple Man was her only enemy in the book.

The part I have bolded is my point. It didn't just flow better it actually flowed unlike Ms. Marvel's series. Alias focused on her character and the series didn't get dominated by major events happening in the marvel universe. It had a clear straight path that felt more like a graphic novel than a bunch of single issue stories that felt like everything possible was jammed into them in case marvel decided to drop the book. The way they transitioned to Carol's past in afghanistan and her being on spy mission felt like someone slamming on the brakes going 80 mph trying to come to a dead stop with you in the car. The transition to it just wasn't there...it just happened. If Carol's book took place ignoring the major events going on in the marvel universe I do think the book would've flowed and not been jarring at all. Then theirs the stories for the characters they tried to develop for the series that never got explained. What happened to her love interest exactly? Did he die is he still alive? What about the one member from operation lightning strike with him being immortal they never explained that one either. They just abandoned it and never came back to it all in the series that just left me as reader going "why the hell did you even bother writing about them?" The series lacked character development for the introduced supporting cast. The series just didn't come off as something well written to me. Than again I'm not used to reading a ton of mainstream comics so that could be the answer to why we have different views on this.

The part I have bolded is my point. It didn't just flow better it actually flowed unlike Ms. Marvel's series. Alias focused on her character and the series didn't get dominated by major events happening in the marvel universe. It had a clear straight path that felt more like a graphic novel than a bunch of single issue stories that felt like everything possible was jammed into them in case marvel decided to drop the book. The way they transitioned to Carol's past in afghanistan and her being on spy mission felt like someone slamming on the brakes going 80 mph trying to come to a dead stop with you in the car. The transition to it just wasn't there...it just happened. If Carol's book took place ignoring the major events going on in the marvel universe I do think the book would've flowed and not been jarring at all. Then theirs the stories for the characters they tried to develop for the series that never got explained. What happened to her love interest exactly? Did he die is he still alive? What about the one member from operation lightning strike with him being immortal they never explained that one either. They just abandoned it and never came back to it all in the series that just left me as reader going "why the hell did you even bother writing about them?" The series lacked character development for the introduced supporting cast. The series just didn't come off as something well written to me. Than again I'm not used to reading a ton of mainstream comics so that could be the answer to why we have different views on this.

@Captain Danvers said:

@cody1984 said:

The part I have bolded is my point. It didn't just flow better it actually flowed unlike Ms. Marvel's series. Alias focused on her character and the series didn't get dominated by major events happening in the marvel universe. It had a clear straight path that felt more like a graphic novel than a bunch of single issue stories that felt like everything possible was jammed into them in case marvel decided to drop the book. The way they transitioned to Carol's past in afghanistan and her being on spy mission felt like someone slamming on the brakes going 80 mph trying to come to a dead stop with you in the car. The transition to it just wasn't there...it just happened. If Carol's book took place ignoring the major events going on in the marvel universe I do think the book would've flowed and not been jarring at all. Then theirs the stories for the characters they tried to develop for the series that never got explained. What happened to her love interest exactly? Did he die is he still alive? What about the one member from operation lightning strike with him being immortal they never explained that one either. They just abandoned it and never came back to it all in the series that just left me as reader going "why the hell did you even bother writing about them?" The series lacked character development for the introduced supporting cast. The series just didn't come off as something well written to me. Than again I'm not used to reading a ton of mainstream comics so that could be the answer to why we have different views on this.

How does that make sense to you? Do you seriously not see the huge difference between Alias and Ms.Marvel's book. Alias focused simply on Jessica Jones as a character because it was her origin story. She didn't exist before that book came out. How could it have gotten dominated by major events when she A. wasn't an important character at the time. B. Events didn't become a steady thing until like 4-5 years after Alias had ended. Ms.Marvel is a superhero. She takes care of threats that others can't or won't. Jessica Jones was a private investigator with no rouge gallery or villains accept Purple Man.How you compare an origin story to an ongoing doesn't make any sense. The stuff you are using to say that her book was inconsistent is seemingly picky. The part of her book that involved her past and Afghanistan doesn't represent the entirety of her book.It's like 4-5 issues out of 40.If the book wasn't well written to you, that's one thing but that's alot different than saying it wasn't consistent. They picked their spots for each arc and they made sense in the order they were done in. You're saying that the book lacked character development for the supporting cast when those characters were not only the supporting cast for short time it's not their book. They are veteran superheroes (accept Arana who had more development in Carol's book than her own miniseries).They had their own books at some point. It's not like they were at Foggy Nelson status or anything, you would want him to be developed through Daredevil because that's the main book he appears in and he has many appearances in it.It wouldn't make sense if there was no character development for him, but for characters appearing in another characters book who are already established heroes and only appeared for a short time.I can't understand why you thought there would be any development of those characters.

I gave one example of Alias I also gave another example being the Punisher's MAX series and Mystique's series as well to talk about what I meant by flow. Her past and the spy event felt like someone just slamming on the brakes changing direction with no reason given at all. I'm sorry but that was a really rough transition. You also do realize I'm talking about the character development of the shield characters right? I'm not refering to wonder man and machine man but the shield members assigned to operation lightning strike that were introduced in the Ms. Marvel series. The point about the supporting cast is if you are going to introduce them then hint at them having back story then you should tell the story or don't bother giving those characters back story. I hate when writers do that since it stands out like a sore thumb. Also again I'm not seeing consistency in here series. The arcs jumped around to much with what she dealt with having supportering characters getting hinted at having an interesting back stories get dropped and then have her love interest vanish and her not finding out what happened just left me going wtf when I was reading the series. The series needed less things going on and the quality of the writing just wasn't good.

I gave one example of Alias I also gave another example being the Punisher's MAX series and Mystique's series as well to talk about what I meant by flow. Her past and the spy event felt like someone just slamming on the brakes changing direction with no reason given at all. I'm sorry but that was a really rough transition. You also do realize I'm talking about the character development of the shield characters right? I'm not refering to wonder man and machine man but the shield members assigned to operation lightning strike that were introduced in the Ms. Marvel series. The point about the supporting cast is if you are going to introduce them then hint at them having back story then you should tell the story or don't bother giving those characters back story. I hate when writers do that since it stands out like a sore thumb. Also again I'm not seeing consistency in here series. The arcs jumped around to much with what she dealt with having supportering characters getting hinted at having an interesting back stories get dropped and then have her love interest vanish and her not finding out what happened just left me going wtf when I was reading the series. The series needed less things going on and the quality of the writing just wasn't good.

@Captain Danvers said:

@cody1984 said:

I gave one example of Alias I also gave another example being the Punisher's MAX series and Mystique's series as well to talk about what I meant by flow. Her past and the spy event felt like someone just slamming on the brakes changing direction with no reason given at all. I'm sorry but that was a really rough transition. You also do realize I'm talking about the character development of the shield characters right? I'm not refering to wonder man and machine man but the shield members assigned to operation lightning strike that were introduced in the Ms. Marvel series. The point about the supporting cast is if you are going to introduce them then hint at them having back story then you should tell the story or don't bother giving those characters back story. I hate when writers do that since it stands out like a sore thumb. Also again I'm not seeing consistency in here series. The arcs jumped around to much with what she dealt with having supportering characters getting hinted at having an interesting back stories get dropped and then have her love interest vanish and her not finding out what happened just left me going wtf when I was reading the series. The series needed less things going on and the quality of the writing just wasn't good.

LOL @ this. The fact that you can't see why That Punisher book, Mystique's miniseries, & Alias are no comparison to an important heroes book just tells me I shouldn't continue this. These are by far some of the most picky and ridiculous reasons i've read for someone not liking a series. Half of your issue with the book focuses on things that weren't really even important to her book. And you for some reason think she had a supporting cast when she didn't. How can character be supporting cast if Brian Reed didn't find them important enough to develop them? Oh I don't know, maybe because they weren't her supporting cast. I still don't know what you're saying about consistency. I don't know how you read a book where a character deals with enemies and other characters that she has a history with and then you say it's inconsistent, it's hilarious.You can say the writing wasn't good, that's fine but your whole, slamming on the breaks, didn't transition well, inconsistency statements are funny to me after reading what you're using to back it up.

Not being rude her but if it the Ms Marvel series was really important the series wouldn't have gotten dropped. As far as my reasons go I like to read a good story that pays attention to detail something the Ms. Marvel series didn't deliver. If you view the only thing important to the book is seeing Ms. Marvel kick ass and nothing else the book is going to suck. As far as the supporting cast goes they were part of her group operation lightning strike and fought along side her for several issues. That makes them supporting characters not just canon fodder. The one guy who is supposed to be immortal is over a hundred years old according to the one flash back scene and fought alongside machine man several times was a pretty cool character but they just went nowhere with him. He was somewhat interesting and they just later on don't mention it at all. Brian Reed dropped the ball there big time. For all your commenting about me being wrong I'm still not seeing how the Ms. Marvel series wasn't a train wreck.

Not being rude her but if it the Ms Marvel series was really important the series wouldn't have gotten dropped. As far as my reasons go I like to read a good story that pays attention to detail something the Ms. Marvel series didn't deliver. If you view the only thing important to the book is seeing Ms. Marvel kick ass and nothing else the book is going to suck. As far as the supporting cast goes they were part of her group operation lightning strike and fought along side her for several issues. That makes them supporting characters not just canon fodder. The one guy who is supposed to be immortal is over a hundred years old according to the one flash back scene and fought alongside machine man several times was a pretty cool character but they just went nowhere with him. He was somewhat interesting and they just later on don't mention it at all. Brian Reed dropped the ball there big time. For all your commenting about me being wrong I'm still not seeing how the Ms. Marvel series wasn't a train wreck.

@9th Wonder said:

You're just saying anything now.

No I'm stating it was done for the heck of it.

These two situations actually have nothing to do with each other. You can't compare them. They aren't just two bad arcs one instance would have harmed the character in the future.The other one is completely irrelevant to the characters future.

Their both character derailment.

I don't understand how a decision that's been overturned ruins the character for the present when it's over and done with.

Because it ruins the characters past and leaves a tarnished mark on the characters history.

They absolutely can "talk about it".

Not when its a hated failure.

Along with that I stated being in the Mighty Avengers..I also previously stated Dark Reign killed her book.I assumed you could come to the conclusion of what I meant on your own.

You said big event Dark Reign was a big event. Don't talk to me coming to a certain conclusion when you are contradicting yourself.

I don't really have to prove anything.It wasn't relevant to my point and I shouldn't have even responded to it.I still believe what you said is false and it's not going to change just because i'm not going to bother getting into a off-topic argument about something that has no relevance.

You can believe my opinion is wrong but trying to state its wrong by just saying so was what annoyed me.

This is obvious and I don't understand why you're stating it at all.

The point was you were stating big events didn't hurt her book yet dark reigned a big event killed it. In other words you are contradicting yourself.

Marvel hasn't quite mastered it yet but DC seems to do it pretty well.Batgirl has had a long running series and just rebooted,Supergirl ended Volume 5 before the reboot,Power Girl who is essentially Supergirl was a popular series before the reboot,Harley Quinn (Joker knock-off) who isn't even a main villain had a 38 issue series.Female characters don't tend to sell but in Marvel's case the ones who you call knock-offs do alot better than ones who aren't.

DC does better with selling female characters that is true but correct me if I'm wrong here but I believe marvel is lot quicker to drop a book with lower sales figures.

Black Widow has 4 volumes but their all really short.I don't remember any of them being over 10 issues,Silver Sable hasn't had a book since the 90's,Storm has only has miniseries,as has Scarlet Witch,but characters like She-Hulk,Spider-Girl,Ms.Marvel,have had ongoing series that in only two volumes surpass the number of books

Spider girl did last a while I'll give you that but it barely lasted dodging the bullet of getting cancelled quite often.

Bendis' Spider-Woman book did well sales wise and only ended because Maleev needed a break.

How many issues was it again?

If selling comics had anything to do with originality then so many characters wouldn't have borrowed characteristics from each others...and that doesn't just go for characters you are calling knock-offs that goes for characters that have fairly original concepts.

Characters created as knock offs can sell but the characters that aren't knock offs tend to have a lot more issues put out. Vampirella, Witchblade, and Wonderwoman have more of their own comics put out then Ms. Marvel, Spider Woman, and She Hulk.

Terrible point to make.One event ruined her book not all of them.The events where she had a role (everyone before Dark Reign) helped her tremendously.

It was a big event that killed her book so the point about big events stands.

I forgot to say "Marvel Female characters".Wonder Woman would be irrelevant to that statement.

Yeah I thought you say something like that.

It really isn't.They didn't derail Punisher.His character conceptually has been the same since day one.

Bull****. They tried to change the character completely several times with the Punisher deciding willingly to join the mob...you know the guys he's been killing for decades. When he was angel punisher he didn't kill band guys in his second miniseries saying that they learned their lesson...way way way out of character. Hell the trope even lists Punisher Purgatory as a prime example of Character derailment.

Why you think this makes Ennis' poor treatment of Wolverine any better is beyond my comprehension.

I'm going to be honest and say I don't care how you feel about the way wolverine was treated. He got made to look like an ass that is true but his character wasn't derailed like the Punisher has been and that is a huge difference.

I almost bet that Franken-Castle will not be referred in this new run. Don't know if the Frank's death in dark reign had repercussions in other heroes or if they noticed. I only read the Punisher series.

@Captain Danvers said:

@cody1984 said:

Not being rude her but if it the Ms Marvel series was really important the series wouldn't have gotten dropped. As far as my reasons go I like to read a good story that pays attention to detail something the Ms. Marvel series didn't deliver. If you view the only thing important to the book is seeing Ms. Marvel kick ass and nothing else the book is going to suck. As far as the supporting cast goes they were part of her group operation lightning strike and fought along side her for several issues. That makes them supporting characters not just canon fodder. The one guy who is supposed to be immortal is over a hundred years old according to the one flash back scene and fought alongside machine man several times was a pretty cool character but they just went nowhere with him. He was somewhat interesting and they just later on don't mention it at all. Brian Reed dropped the ball there big time. For all your commenting about me being wrong I'm still not seeing how the Ms. Marvel series wasn't a train wreck.

Didn't say the series was important I said she was important.Alot of characters who actually important to the Marvel Universe don't have an ongoing title.I'm not trying to convince you about anything anymore I'm just going to assume you're the only one who thinks like this and let it go.Also LOL @ you still trying to prove Ms.Marvel had a supporting cast.

You said an important heroes book refering to her book being important. Anyway, if they weren't a supporting cast then what would you call them exactly?

@9th Wonder said:

@cody1984 said:

@9th Wonder said:

You're just saying anything now.

No I'm stating it was done for the heck of it.

These two situations actually have nothing to do with each other. You can't compare them. They aren't just two bad arcs one instance would have harmed the character in the future.The other one is completely irrelevant to the characters future.

Their both character derailment.

I don't understand how a decision that's been overturned ruins the character for the present when it's over and done with.

Because it ruins the characters past and leaves a tarnished mark on the characters history.

They absolutely can "talk about it".

Not when its a hated failure.

Along with that I stated being in the Mighty Avengers..I also previously stated Dark Reign killed her book.I assumed you could come to the conclusion of what I meant on your own.

You said big event Dark Reign was a big event. Don't talk to me coming to a certain conclusion when you are contradicting yourself.

I don't really have to prove anything.It wasn't relevant to my point and I shouldn't have even responded to it.I still believe what you said is false and it's not going to change just because i'm not going to bother getting into a off-topic argument about something that has no relevance.

You can believe my opinion is wrong but trying to state its wrong by just saying so was what annoyed me.

This is obvious and I don't understand why you're stating it at all.

The point was you were stating big events didn't hurt her book yet dark reigned a big event killed it. In other words you are contradicting yourself.

Marvel hasn't quite mastered it yet but DC seems to do it pretty well.Batgirl has had a long running series and just rebooted,Supergirl ended Volume 5 before the reboot,Power Girl who is essentially Supergirl was a popular series before the reboot,Harley Quinn (Joker knock-off) who isn't even a main villain had a 38 issue series.Female characters don't tend to sell but in Marvel's case the ones who you call knock-offs do alot better than ones who aren't.

DC does better with selling female characters that is true but correct me if I'm wrong here but I believe marvel is lot quicker to drop a book with lower sales figures.

Black Widow has 4 volumes but their all really short.I don't remember any of them being over 10 issues,Silver Sable hasn't had a book since the 90's,Storm has only has miniseries,as has Scarlet Witch,but characters like She-Hulk,Spider-Girl,Ms.Marvel,have had ongoing series that in only two volumes surpass the number of books

Spider girl did last a while I'll give you that but it barely lasted dodging the bullet of getting cancelled quite often.

Bendis' Spider-Woman book did well sales wise and only ended because Maleev needed a break.

How many issues was it again?

If selling comics had anything to do with originality then so many characters wouldn't have borrowed characteristics from each others...and that doesn't just go for characters you are calling knock-offs that goes for characters that have fairly original concepts.

Characters created as knock offs can sell but the characters that aren't knock offs tend to have a lot more issues put out. Vampirella, Witchblade, and Wonderwoman have more of their own comics put out then Ms. Marvel, Spider Woman, and She Hulk.

Terrible point to make.One event ruined her book not all of them.The events where she had a role (everyone before Dark Reign) helped her tremendously.

It was a big event that killed her book so the point about big events stands.

I forgot to say "Marvel Female characters".Wonder Woman would be irrelevant to that statement.

Yeah I thought you say something like that.

It really isn't.They didn't derail Punisher.His character conceptually has been the same since day one.

Bull****. They tried to change the character completely several times with the Punisher deciding willingly to join the mob...you know the guys he's been killing for decades. When he was angel punisher he didn't kill band guys in his second miniseries saying that they learned their lesson...way way way out of character. Hell the trope even lists Punisher Purgatory as a prime example of Character derailment.

Why you think this makes Ennis' poor treatment of Wolverine any better is beyond my comprehension.

I'm going to be honest and say I don't care how you feel about the way wolverine was treated. He got made to look like an ass that is true but his character wasn't derailed like the Punisher has been and that is a huge difference.

This is clearly an over-estimation of what impact Frankencastle will have on The Punisher. I don't think your posts represent the feelings of most Punisher fans and i'm content with that.

I'm actually being a lot nicer about FrankenCastle then most Punisher fans.

to make fun of a writer you were praising like he's actually a good writer when in actuality he like Daniel Way and other mediocre writers have simply used characters like Wolverine to make other characters look better in comparison.

If Garth Ennis was actually a bad writer he wouldn't be rated as one of the top writers in the industry. That is a fact. You might not like that but he is consider one of the best comic book writers out there.

He sucks.

Just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean he isn't talented. I don't like Rick Remender but I will give him credit for being a somewhat talented writer. It seems like your angry Remender and wolverine fan that has a beef against Ennis .

I don't care if you care how I feel about it.

Then why do you keep responding.

Kind of tired of "breaking it down" to you.

If you meant by "breaking it down" as in proving you don't have a point then sure you did succeed at that.

@Bionder said:

I almost bet that Franken-Castle will not be referred in this new run. Don't know if the Frank's death in dark reign had repercussions in other heroes or if they noticed. I only read the Punisher series.

Greg Rucka has stated he's going to be ignoring the previous books in interviews so it's not going to get mentioned in his Punisher series.

@cody1984 said:

@Bionder said:

I almost bet that Franken-Castle will not be referred in this new run. Don't know if the Frank's death in dark reign had repercussions in other heroes or if they noticed. I only read the Punisher series.

Greg Rucka has stated he's going to be ignoring the previous books in interviews so it's not going to get mentioned in his Punisher series.

That's good.

I think all the Punisher fans should get something positive in the Franken-Castle era. In my vision of things as i said before because of that "event" Frank Castle got rejuvenated which is good because in the battlefield he would be better as ever, more reflexes, strenght, etc.

Don't know if Rucka would take this in mind, In my opinion this is important for development of the character.

From what i read in the battle vs Vulture he has done quite well.

All of marvel should have a "Crisis" and fold all their continuities together...

or better yet, just drop the standard Marvel u and make Ultimate the primary line. Its already far more interesting and there are no crappy concepts like the "ultimate nullifyer" or "Infinity Gauntlets".

Marvel shits all over all their characters. they would make Captain America a rapist tomorrow if they thought it would make a good event. They could make millions of small fixes. But they never will

If Garth Ennis was actually a bad writer he wouldn't be rated as one of the top writers in the industry. That is a fact. You might not like that but he is consider one of the best comic book writers out there.

Just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean he isn't talented. I don't like Rick Remender but I will give him credit for being a somewhat talented writer. It seems like your angry Remender and wolverine fan that has a beef against Ennis .

If you meant by "breaking it down" as in proving you don't have a point then sure you did succeed at that.

Personally I think that the time that the Punisher spent as Captain America and when he became Frankencastle where the most interested I had been in him aside from when he was working with Rampage (Stuart Clark) who had been making him weapons and during Dark Reign.I don't think Frankencastle was done (writing wise) as well as it good have been done but overall it was an interesting concept. The Punisher as a character is kind of a stale. Most of what can or could be done with Frank has kind of already been done. Because of the type of character he is I think the arcs that people didn't like where something writers were trying out on their readers because they are at a loss of what to actually do with him at this point. I think Moon Knight and Deadpool suffer from a similar thing right now where their character concept isn't really strong enough for them to have much more material to spread through their books for years to come. I think that's why arcs that are kind of obscure happen. I don't think Marvel should retcon Frankencastle. In fact I think if they would have made Frank a little monster team and then made that a book it may have helped sell the concept. As an idea I don't think Frankencastle should be erased from Castle's past. I think that having some good story arcs in the future will overshadow that. I think when Dan Slott was writing Mighty Avengers and he took some interest in Hank Pym it kind of made people forget all about the fact that he created one of the Avengers most powerful villains, he slapped his wife, and has just done some of the most borderline villainous stuff over the years. He's actually gained some popularity from those Dark Reign arcs.