Everyone on the list is a joke (except Gilgamesh).
Anime Gilgamesh vs Goku is debatable due to the speed difference, however if we are using the strongest version of Gilgamesh, then the video game Fate/Extra CCC Gilgamesh is way beyond infinite sized multiverse level and moves faster than the concept of time, fighting an omnipresent beyond multiversal reality warper (Moon Cell BB); meaning he solos all of Dragon Ball by blinking alone. Respect thread here.
Overall though, I really hope the OP is joking about everyone else stomping Goku.
@etriel: that doesnt mean that there are infinite higher dimensions that are each infinitely greater than the level below it.
you are still failing to continue confusing the number of stair steps for the number of dimensions. like my tower floor stairway analogy.
I can't stress enough how BASELESS this is.
because the named dimensions like the meta world are infinitely greater than the level below it. to get to the higher dimension would require climbing infinite steps.
you are still continuing to confuse the steps for dimensions that are infinitely greater than below.
yes. each step is greater than the previous step. but it is not infinitely greater because if that were true. you would need to take infinite steps to the next step of the stairway or the ladder.
i base it on literally every description of the infinite ladder i hear from every umineko debater i know.
the infinite ladder stretches from higher dimensions to lower dimensions. but these higher and lower dimensions are divided vertically into a finite number of layers.
for example. we get a 10 dimensional multiverse right? how do you climb from one dimension to the next if for example. because the 7th dimension is infinitely greater than the 6th. you would need an infinite ladder right?
zgtfreak. what part of my reasoning do you not understand?
even a finite higher dimensional multiverse already by its nature. already has an infinite ladder due to the differnces between each dimensions.
Such a system has NEVER EVEN BEEN IMPLIED. Umineko has only spoke of the dimensions themselves, not how to get to a higher one via a ladder. There is no reason to assume this ladder system exist like you say it does when it has never been mentioned like the way you are describing in the ENTIRETY of When They Cry. YOU are the one making a heavy assumption, not me, who is simply using the system that Umineko has shown us for the ladder.
it is a baseless assumption that each step = 1 floor layer dimension. they are both hierarchy. but they are not n sync. i dont understand why you keep misunderstanding.
Not when the only thing Umineko has mentioned is the dimensions themselves and not how to get higher.
then you need to show me evidence that each single step connotes one level that is infinitely greater than the level below it.
You need to validate YOUR ladder headcanon, as such a concept hasn't been spoken of in the series.
as you climb on the ladder. you get closer to the dimension above you. that is why you get stronger not that each step is a dimension. but it brings you closer to the dimension above. the floors are the dimensions. the ladder and stairs are just the medium.
By your logic, the territory lord/game master can immediately ascend to a dimension beyond what they control, as they a full control over their reality, which in turn means they would have full control over the steps in their dimension to travel higher instantly (which is clearly not the case).
And once again... The system you speak of has never been spoken of nor implied in Umineko, as the series only speaks of the dimensions THEMSELVES, making your headcanon just that, a headcanon.
your argument is actually irrelevant to what i am saying. we are arguing cosmology not fights.
No it is not. Your scale contradicting who is stronger than who makes the scale INVALID.
Skipping some of the stuff you said FYI, since I've already addressed it.
your infinite hierarchy is not infinite d if it begins at the 3rd dimension and linear time and literally ends at the realm of witches with finite number of layers (each of these layers are infinite) but it is not infinite d.
Yes, because a scale (a fan one at that) that doesn't show INFINITE-D on the graph is invalid. LOL No. How are we to show infinite-D? The picture is just showing the main dimensions that we know of; that doesn't mean the cosmology isn't infinite-D because we only have seen a finite amount. Again... Spacebattles logic. Though I will admit that you're more fun to debate than any Spacebattles scrub.
you are still making the flawed argument that 'steps = floors' no. just. no.
And you are still assuming something that has never been spoken of in the series.
@sungsam However, if we could get a scan, saying that each step of the infinite ladder, is not only greater , but infinitely greater than literally just the next step below it, that would be great.
I don't remember if there is one, but the problem is that Etriel's argument is complete headcanon that has never been supported by Umineko. The only thing the ladder was alluding to was dimensions, aka the only thing we SEE and HEAR of in Umineko; assuming otherwise is baseless.
As for scans, I will probably do scan collecting on the entirety of When They Cry in the future, but I have not debated it much until recently, so I'm not the best one to ask for scans at the moment. Right now I'm currently getting info on CCC Gilgamesh to make my 3v1 thread of him vs non amped/standard Battler,Ange, and Beatrice. After I am done with getting Fate/Extra/Nasuverse info, I'll probably move on to obtaining When They Cry/Umineko scans.
Just because a step or level is of a higher level of existence, that doesn't necessitate to being infinitely greater than.
Yes, but considering the ladder could only be alluding to one thing, everything becomes quite clear.
I 9000% agree that Umineko is Infinite Dimensional, but Etriel is not even the first use these sort of analysis against Umineko, and he won't be the last. Just end it already.
Then he won't be the last I deal with.
I understand Etriel's logic, and it could be quite effective in some cases where it can apply, but his logic has never been spoken of in Umineko, making it mere assumption not based off much.
If we do this, that would have already ended all this hostilities between people who literally defended me against the Monitor Wanker. The views of like mine, Kil, Z and to Etriel's when it comes to dimensional tiering and cosmology tiering are all most alike. I actually hoped to form some sort of clique between us all to form a coherent system to oppose the VSBattles system.
That actually sounds nice to me. VS Battles needs to get shot down, as it has become way too widespread.
As for ending the debate, it's hard for me to end a debate unless I have the last word (which makes my debates go for 6+ pages if I'm heavily invested). The only time I can stop myself is if we both agree to disagree, someone beats me in the argument (never really happens in a fully serious debate), or the person concedes. If Etriel continues to debate me and doesn't beat me or doesn't decide to concede, this will go on literally forever until we both just agree to disagree.
Getting to me over a fictional debate? lol Seems I've struck a nerve.
i am not saying that the infinite ladder is only 1 dimensional. i am saying that each individual step of the ladder/stair hierarchy does not connote a dimension that is infinitely greater than the step below it.
i already told you. if your theory is true.
that means the meta world is one step. the kakeras is one step. this is not the case. we clearly know that the name of every single primary higher dimension in umineko and it is not infinite.
Again...
for example.
the greatness difference between the sea of fragments and the city of books is infinite. right? well. to get to the higher dimension. the ladder to get to the higher dimension of existence needs to be infinite. thats all.
That is still very heavy assumption not based of much.
that means the meta world is one step. the kakeras is one step. this is not the case.
How is it not the case?
i did not say that there are no higher levels of infinity.
I never said you didn't say that.
i did not say that the ladder is not infinite.
I didn't say you said that either; I said that you said that each step is not infinite (which you did).
i did not say that the ladder goes up only in one dimension. lol. i said the opposite of that.
I see. I find your way of wording things weird at times, thus I may misunderstand. In fact it seems that we are both misunderstanding what some of each other are saying.
i am just saying. that the number of steps is not the number of dimensions. they are two. completely. different. things.
i am just saying. that the difference between the steps in power is not infinite. there are infinite steps. but these steps are not infinitely different from one another.
you are confusing the ladder levels with the dimension levels. they are not in sync. the number of stairs =/= the number of higher dimensions that are infinitely greater than the level below it..
What do you have to base this off of?
otherwise any umineko character would have to make infinite walks from just 1 step to another step above it. that is not the case as that is illogical. you would have to make infinite walks from step 1 to step 2 if each step is infinitely greater than the step below it.
By your logic, it is illogical to ascend the infinite latter at all, as it would take infinite steps to reach a higher dimension, yet people still ascend to those dimensions. These characters move beyond the concept of distance, so infinity isn't a big deal.
if your theory is true. that means that a meta world is one step. the kakeras is one step. etc. etc. clearly this is not the case. we know the number of primary levels of existence in umineko and it is not infinite.
We know how many dimensions are shown, but that is by no means all that there is; to think so is once again, a baseless assumption.
You are literally saying that the ladder isn't infinite-D because "That means that a meta world is one step. the kakeras is one step. etc. etc. clearly this is not the case." WHY can't this be the case?
Your concept of the latter is pretty neat, but alas, it's based off nothing but a theory; one that has never been hinted at in Umineko.
The only way I can see you winning this is if you pull out some info that I've completely forgotten about (as I usually never debated Umineko until recently), otherwise, this discussion doesn't have much left in it.
Also, the picture you sent earlier shows your knowledge on Umineko is limited.
Willard and Dlanor are on the same level/existence as voyagers? LOL No. The only reason Willard could 1v20 Bernkastel and her cats is because they were playing the rules of the game, not to mention Willard's sword is literally able to cut concepts. But you are saying in raw power/existence Willard and DLANOR are on the same level as voyagers? No. Willard can only fight voyagers due to his many crazy abilities, meanwhile Dlanor is fodder to voyagers and Willard. Why is Aurora here too? Even with your ladder logic, none of this makes sense.
@etriel: uh. the original japanese as well as the english translation only mentions an infinite ladder. this was confirmed by japanese speakers and readers who talking about that same scan on vsbattles that kilupu failed to address. even the original guy who got that scan knew that. lol
Doesn't matter, as it is clearly alluding to dimensions, as it can't mean anything else.
unless every step in the ladder is a universe that is infinitely greater than the step below it. the infinite ladder just cuts across a hierarchy that ends at the creator. and the number of named levels in umineko is not infinite.
Considering every known level in Umineko is completely/infinitely greater than the one below it, there is no reason to assume that it stops working this way at any point until proven otherwise.
spacebattles argues there are no higher levels of infinity. its laughable that you continue to paint me as among them.
Most of them do not, some do, but overall the way your idea works with statements is very similar.
you can have a tower of 10 floors and have around a hundred steps for the ladder and stairs. every layer in umineko is infinite by themselves. i really do not understand why you cannot see that.
the infinite ladder is not the layers themselves. its merely the medium of the dimensions in parallel.
let us say that the infinite ladder is infinite dimensional. are you honestly telling me.... that the kakeras is 1 step. meta world is 1 step. city of books is 1 step. how does that work exactly?
for that to make sense. there must be infinite layers inside the kakeras. infinite layers in the city of books. to make account to pair with every infinite step if it is true that there are infinite dimensions in umineko. but that is not the case.
when you analyze the cosmology. the infinite ladder =/= infinite d starts to make more sense.
You're saying that the infinite ladder is just ascending infinitely in one dimension? That means the power gap between a territory lord and voyager would be zero, since territory lords already rule their dimension, aka have completely domain over the ladder, making them equal to voyagers, which is clearly not the case, therefore invalid.
each step is higher than the level below it higher existence wise. but it is not necessarily infinitely greater than literally the next step. but each single individual step is not individually in sync with the primary levels of existence that are infinitely greater than the level below. the difference between each step of the ladder and stair hierarchy is not infinite.
Completely baseless in every way. Umineko always has higher dimensions infinitely above lower. If the infinite ascending ladder was not dimensions, then how is Bern infinitely above territory lords if she is merely higher on a latter that has a finite increase? The fact Umineko has never established such rules really just makes this a headcanon of yours.
its not a theory. its your absence of evidence that every single step is infinitely greater. it is greater. but not infinitely as it is not stated.
Again...
> Umineko EXCLUSIVELY runs off levels of infinity.
> Proceeds to assume the ladder is not infinite in each step despite such a type of scaling being non-existent/never mentioned in Umineko, not to mention it contradicts the power levels between the characters.
what do you think of my exchange with madchemist in regards to lovecraft? lets see if there is some echo of mutual consensus because we at least also both agree that yog would lose to featherine. come on. lets see this first.
I only skimmed through it because I was mainly focused on my own argument.
From what I know of Lovecraft, higher dimensions hold no bearing on one's power, thus Yog being infinite-D or higher is meaningless if said infinite-D is not layered to where each higher dimension is completely superior to lower. This is obviously not the case with Umineko.
My second argument is that even if we assume Yog to be beyond infinite-D, he would still be below Battler in this gauntlet, assuming this is EoS Battler that got Game Master amped to (and overall beyond) Bernkastel. The reason Yog would still be below this Battler is due to Battler's conceptual manipulation and destructive abilities, along with far superior defensive abilities (I.E. Endless Nine).
you have to show me the original japanese scan saying it has not deviated. it cannot be that you shove the burden of proof on me.
for example. the soviet leader nikita kruschev was mistranslated saying he would bury the west in his speech. that was an official mistranslation taken out of context from his metaphor. being an official translation doesnt mean you can change what the original meant. didnt make it correct. just because you 'feel' it 'alludes' doesnt mean it is correct.
you have to give the original context.
especially when the original japanese and all other translations dont even say infinite dimensions. that is already suspect to a mistranslation flaw.
We would need someone who speaks japanese to translate (no one here). Until then, we are to assume the translation is fine until further notice, because to magically assume the statement was mistranslated for no real reason other than "Uh, maybe they messed up cuz LOL" is bias and wrong. Just because the word "dimension" wasn't used specifically does not allude to a translation flaw. I've read Umineko, and the infinite ladder cannot be referring to anything else other than layered dimensions.
so is an 11 dimensional or a 26 dimensional multiverse because all these constructs self generate because dimensions function with quantum super position every instant to instant creating new timelines of families and it would be 'high 1b' its all still wave functions and superposition.
this is something that vsbattles doesnt understand about extra dimensions in pop physics.
its just that infinite dimensional multiverse is a suggsversified version of that construct. making it ridiculous.
by your criteria. all quantum based multiverses in fiction that dont even have infinite dimensions are infinite dimensional because theyre all infinitely ascending and this would cause severe power scaling issues with a lot of fictions. if i just said 'whoop. infinite ladder means infinite dimensional now'
The ladder ascending isn't just infinite-D due to ascending with no context. Umineko is completely about higher dimensions; the infinite ascending ladder cannot refer to anything else besides the higher and higher dimensions we repeatedly have seen established.
Tell me then, what DOES the infinite ascending ladder mean in Umineko if it is not speaking of dimensions? You tell me. Can't wait to hear your wild theories.
oh. dcs physical multiverse has infinite layers of multiverses. that means mxyzptlk is infinite dimensional even though he has just been stated to be 5d. do you seriously even listen to yourself?
I don't read crappy comics, so I don't get much of what you are saying, nor do I care.
i dont even ask for 100% exact.
if you say there are infinite number of higher dimensions. or higher dimensions that are infinite. that would be acceptable.
things like infinite ladder gives is not evidence.
if that is infinite dimensional. then the dc metaverse is infinite dimensional for the same reasons and nobody agrees it is infinite dimensional.
> Speaks of an infinite ladder of power in a verse all about higher ascending dimensions.
> Says it's not evidence.
Wat.
I could care less about the poorly written cesspool that is DC comics that can't even keep a straight cosmology.
the reason sungsam hates cross fiction dimensional tiering and outerverse wanking is because i myself defeated him in many debates on g+ and i influenced a quarter of his debating style. no seriously. go ask him. he will literally confirm this.
What? LOL What does Sungsam have to do with ANY of this? I've been debating longer than both of you were on the internet probably and even before Vine, VSB, and Spacebattles even existed (though in recent years I've done less hardcore debating). You think influencing him impresses me? Not at all. Influencing Sungsam's way of debating doesn't put you anywhere near my level, not to mention Sungsam has overall become a superior debater to you regardless. I like his style too, which is why I followed his profile on Vine.
If you brought this up because I mentioned you being on the tier of VS Battles, no, I overall CLEARLY compared you to Spacebattles in terms of your frame of mind (which happens to be the reverse VS Battles).
you have no right to even dare compare me to vsbattles.
Once again, I compared you to Spacebattles specifically, who just so happens to be on the same level a VS Battles but going the opposite way with scientific nonsense in fiction.
you compare to me to vsbattles but your understanding of quantum dimensions is literally nearly equal to their understanding. from my perspective. you are the one like vsbattles. lol
I'm not using science or quantum anything to debate, which is exactly YOUR problem in this case. I am going off what Umineko has told us, not inserting my pseudo-intellectual science to rationalize dimensions in a verse about magic, with a cosmology based off nothing in real life, like you are.
if this is everyones criteria for being infinite dimensional? fine. i can tag along. but if thats gonna be the case. infinite ascending is infinite dimensional because of your definition of it?
If it FITS in the context of dimensions and is specifically alluding to infinite dimensions, then yes.
then lets make 5d imps infinite dimensional. lets make every multiversal being who scales to a quantum instant generating multiverse as infinite dimensional. lets make dr manhattan infinite dimensional as well which causes serious problems to our multiversal scaling on this forum. it cannot just be umineko.
Like I said, I don't care about comics and find it extremely irrelevant to this discussion. Do what you want with your comic scaling; I could care less.
what i do not understand. is that kilpoopootkra and you think im this crazy debater with my pseudo science.
You aren't crazy, just misguided and have the wrong mindset.
but you umineko guys are constantly talking and arguing with higher dimensions all the damn fucking time in this fucking forum. you have a loooooooooooooooooooong history of doing that.
for fucks sake. many umineko debaters ive seen insults those who use the megaverse system normally used on this forum as well and intimidates debaters with his wanking muh dimensions.
Do not group me with Umineko debaters who have done such things, for I have never gone against the megaversal system.
I'm not some Umineko fanboy, as it isn't even one of my favorite series at all (though I do enjoy it). I mostly debate Nasuverse (below planet level with a few 8-D megaverse level beings), so do not group me with Umineko fanboys who cry when someone beats their favorite series. I already immediately thought Gan stomps Aurora after what Sungsam told me instead of wanking her or salt downplaying Gan.
so pseudo science dimension arguments for you guys. but when i explain it and do it better than you. not for me? you even have histories of insulting people who dont understand how dimensions work. wut?????? fuck you,
All of this is unrelated to me. I haven't even been in Umineko threads until recently.
Also, can you keep your replies to one long one? 800 nonillion replies for every post I make makes this thread look ugly.
All in all though... you are out of blue truths... therefore...
@etriel: and what about you gt? do you think it is wise for kilupugpatkru to use a spanish translation that is deviating from the original source material?
Oh boy, I guess the master is gonna have to step in. And here I wanted to stay out of this since I am lazy these days...
Proof that the Spanish translation is mistranslated? Show me it has deviated.
show me. tell me. which of the layers in umineko like the kakeras or meta world are infinite d? theyre all levels of existence. why not show me? its that simple.
Irrelevant. The infinite ascending ladder is clearly alluding to infinite dimensions. What evidence is there to the contrary? What else could an infinite ascending latter refer to (no wild/far out illuminati tier fan theory)? The only logical thing it is alluding to is dimensions, as this has been what ALL of Umineko is about; to assume otherwise is baseless assumption. Needing an EXACT statement and ignoring the obvious since it isn't an EXACT statement is asinine. Your logic is only a slightly less evolved/less cancer version of "FEATS ONLY!" You want exact statements? Ok, let me devolve your logic into even more cancer.
> Etriel post an exact infinite-D statement of Marvel or whatever.
> Me: Prove to me that the statement isn't hyperbole/an outlier.
> Etriel: It was stated by an omnipotent and many other cosmic beings countless of times and has not been contradicted at all.
> Me: Prove to me that the statements aren't lies made by the omnipotent. The only way to do that is show me on-panel infinite-D.
> Etriel: They have no reason to lie.
> Me: Baseless headcanon. Show me on-panel infinite-D or there is no real proof that there is any, since these cosmic beings could be lying for all we know.
Your logic is that you need something to be exact for it to count, but how exact? The hypothetical conversation above proves how bad this "I need 100% proof" can devolve into/how far it can go; a truly terrible debating style.
then by that logic. mxyzptlk and all 5d imps is also infinite dimensional because they transcend the physical multiverse of dc that creates infinite layers of multiverses instant to instant.
or anti spiral is infinite dimensional because he created a construct that creates infinite layers of universes instant to instant.
I know little of both of these franchises, so I can't comment, however I already proved my point.
Your logic is the same as Spacebattles (who are just as bad as VS Battles). VS Battles uses feat skipping via cross-verse dimensional tierring and the outerversal concept; meanwhile Spacebattles ask for 100% scientific feats or 100% exact statements (on their most forgiving day), and if you don't do a such, everything is dismissed. Both websites have the upmost garbage line of thinking and are easily debunked. I've destroyed countless of VS Battles and Spacebattles people (or people who think like them); you will be no different.
@kilgpmktra: @etriel Going off his awful logic and the type of logic he is using, I feel as though Etriel is from Spacebattles, aka the reverse VS Battles that is equally as bad, but in the opposite way.
The "If there are infinite dimensions, why does this graph only show 7" is especially bad and a common type of Spacebattles logic. By that logic, the picture needs to literally show infinite dimensions for proof that it is infinite.
@madscientist224: You're the one in 26 that started calling things wank, by your opinion, and afterward started utilizing so called self aware wank in your posts after.
I called your Yog hype wank (since it is), and countered with facts. Then you started using self aware wank. I then beat you in the self aware wank just to really prove Yog can never win, while also addressing you without using self aware wank. The fact you started using it in the first place means you have run out of things to say.
The rest of your trash post I won't even bother reading.
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