ZerothCause's forum posts

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#1 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

Given that this thread is all about who wins between Yog and Multi-Eternity though, I'll just say my opinion there before I leave.

Yog-Sothoth is a being who embodies everything in his verse save for Azathoth ("allied to reality's whole unbounded sweep", "All in One and One in All", being the "SUPREME ARCHETYPE" [caps was Lovecraft, I'm just quoting]), including the other Outer Gods, all of whom are beings several layers of infinite voids beyond time and space (that's from Hypnos) and time and space is infinite dimensional (that's from through Gates of the Silver Key).

Meanwhile, Multi-Eternity is an infinite dimensional being who embodies a really really really huge infinitely dimensioned multiverse - but he's not actually anywhere more than that.

People here seems to love their dimensional tiering from what I've seen, so I'm willing to bet that people here would say a 6D being who controls a 6D universe wins over a 4D being who controls with a constantly multiplying infinite 4D multiverse. So under that logic, I see nothing wrong with saying that a being who is several layers beyond infinite dimensions wins over a being who is only infinitely dimensioned, no matter how powerful that infinitely dimensioned beings.

That's my piece. I'm out.

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#2 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

I dunno about the "concept" of dimensions, but Yog's definitely beyond infinite dimensions. He's repeated several times beyond time and space, and time and space in the Mythos is made of infinite dimensions. He's actually several layers beyond infinite dimensional space from what Hypnos tells us about the cosmology once you leave time and space behind.

@sungsam Your explanations tend to be overthinking things. Like, the "infinity of directions" quote never even mentions anything along the lines of an infinite multiverse. That's you adding your own extra stuff to try and make the quote fit that instead of taking it in the context that is given with it, which is that "directions" refer to dimensions. Occam's razor would say that if the guy is talking about a "tri-dimensional" world being limited, links "directions" to individual dimensional axes / dimensions, and then says there's an infinity of those directions, the simplest explanation to take from that is that he's saying there's an infinity of dimensions. Not add in your own explanation about an infinite multiverse and try to make the quote fit that. Like, the "infinity of directions" is never anywhere even implied to be referring to just the ability to go to an infinite number of universes. That's all you adding your own explanation instead of just accepting the quote for what it is.

Same with the archetypal infinity. You overthink the quote and try to add links where there aren't any. That you think the term "so on to archetypal infinity" is referring to going up to a being / location instead of just, you know, going "so on" forever, and that you make up your own terms to try and explain things like "the Archetypal Eternity", "Geometric Archetype" and worse, "geometric cosmological higher archetypal cosmologism" (terms that never appear in the cosmology) makes that clear. You've looked at that quote, come up with your own incorrect interpretation then taken your own incorrect interpretation of another quote, and you've put it all together to come up with an incorrect interpretation with your own words, your own terms, your own vision, based on overthinking things. And probably a strong dislike of Lovecraft based on how you seem to take any chance you get to insult his cosmology as inferior and outdated, even when it's not even a Lovecraft related thread.

And that's the crux of the issue. Everything you've said, all your explanations, that's all your interpretation. And I can't change your mind of your interpretation, because Lovecraft was never quite so blatant as to just outright say there's infinite dimensions. So whatever metaphorical insights and poetically worded explanations of there being infinite dimensions that I bring you, you'll just push them aside, come up with your own interpretation of the quote that fits your own vision of what the Mythos is like, and go on your merry way. This argument is going to go on forever because neither you nor I can bring the other person the evidence they want to conclusively prove their point. So I think it's best if we stop.

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#3 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel I should note that nowhere does it say Yog only transcends finite dimensions. I keep seeing people say that "the text says Yog only transcends finite dimensional beings", which is incorrect. What is really going on is "the text only says Yog transcends finite dimensional beings". The first would be evidence that he isn't infinite dimensional. The second however says that yes he transcends finite dimensional beings, but it doesn't say it stops there.

@sungsam: Also, Lovecraft isn't mixing up time and space. In Lovecraft's cosmology, they are the same thing. Time and change do not exist. All dimensions are the same things. We know this from the Hounds of Tindalos:

Time is merely our imperfect perception of a new dimension of space. Time and motion are both illusions. Everything that has existed from the beginning of the world exists now. Events that occurred centuries ago on this planet continue to exist in another dimension of space. Events that will occur centuries from now exist already. We cannot perceive their existence because we cannot enter the dimension of space that contains them.

As well as from Through the Gates of The Silver Key

Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously.

These revelations came with a godlike solemnity which left Carter unable to doubt. Even though they lay almost beyond his comprehension, he felt that they must be true in the light of that final cosmic reality which belies all local perspectives and narrow partial views; and he was familiar enough with profound speculations to be free from the bondage of local and partial conceptions. Had his whole quest not been based upon a faith in the unreality of the local and partial?

After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change.

Now, as for your infinite-directions-just-means-infinite-universes-to-go-to.

Not really, if there are Infinite 3-D Universes, there are infinite numbers of X, Y, Z coordinates per every Universe to go to if there are Infinity of them.

Universe 1 is one direction to go to, then Universe 2, then Universe 3, then infinite numbers of choices of directions to go to because our 3-D World is infinitesimal. Besides just going forward, up and left, you can go to infinite choices of universes. See? Explained.

If this was the correct explanation, then why would Yog specifically say that the notion of a tri-dimensional universe is limited? Why would he not say that the notion of a single universe is limited? He quite specifically and directly makes it clear that he's talking about spatial dimensions in the quote. It's the first thing he says. Spatial dimensions are directions to move, he makes that clear too when he describes those "directions" using dimensional axes. Just traveling to other 3D universes would only be one more "direction" to move, not an infinity of them.

Also, in regards to this whole "outerversal" thing, it seems to me that if we subscribe to dimensional tiering where a 5D being transcends a 4D and a 6D being transcends a 5D being, and so on up until an infinite-dimensional being transcending any finite-D being, then it seems like something that transcends infinite dimensions would just be the next step up in the idea of dimensional tiering. So I'm not quite sure why I'm seeing so much argument over the idea. Or is it just the word itself people don't like?

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#4 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Your explanation is flawed. For one thing, you still think that the archetypal infinity and the archetypal and eternal being are the same thing, despite the fact that you also think that archetypal infinity is a location while it is made clear the archetypal and eternal being is a being. Your explanation contains a self-contradiction. Furthermore, there is no such thing as an "Archetypal Eternity".

You also ignore the key piece of cosmology that is given to us a paragraph before hand, which I have not yet addressed your "debunk" of. I will do so now.

The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature.

While most of the impressions translated themselves to Carter as words, there were others to which other senses gave interpretation. Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantage-point he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size, and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other “Carters” his fancy or perception envisaged.

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

Your previous argument against the "infinity of directions" quote was that "there's an infinity of directions in an infinite 3D multiverse". However, this completely ignores the rest of the quote. The rest of that quote directly mentions that "the notion of a tri-dimensionalworld was limited", making it very clear that the rest of this quote is talking about how many dimensions make up the world, and that there are an infinity of directions besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left.

No matter how many infinite universes there are, if they were all 3D universes, they would still only have the directions of up-down, forward-back, and left-right. They would not have "an infinity of directions besides". This quote alone explains how the Lovecraft cosmology is infinite-dimensional, as it refers to "directions" as "up-down, forward-back, and right left", and those are dimensional axes. They are the X, Y and Z coordinates that can be moved along that exist in 3 dimensional space. If there is an infinity of directions to move in besides those axes, it means there are an infinity of other dimensional axes to move along, hence there are infinite dimensions. And when put in context with the surrounding paragraphs...

All of these paragraphs are Yog giving a better "grasp of the Cosmos" to Carter. They are all directly linked to each other. The second paragraph shows that what Carter has just learned about there being infinite dimensions is also allowing him to begin to understand why there can exist different variations of himself. The bit about "each form in space being cut from a form of one dimension greater" is Yog further improving Carter's understanding of how there can be so many versions of himself, which is itself a result of Carter learning about how the world has infinite dimensions. All linked together as part of the same explanation about the same part of the cosmology. Under your explanation that "Yog is just saying there's an infinity of ways to walk in an infinite 3D multiverse" in the first paragraph and "Yog is saying that the location of Archetypal Infinity lies above 5D space", the last paragraph is not improving Carter's understanding of the first, when they clearly are.

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#5 Posted by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

@cergic said:

I feel bad for the word infinite

No Caption Provided

These threads in a nutshell.

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#6 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: You are assuming that "archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions", which is explicitly referring to a being, is the same thing as "archetypal infinity", which you are still capitalizing despite the source material not doing so. You are incorrect. The archetypal infinity is just a numerical big infinity, and the archetypal and eternal being is one of the Outer Gods / Archetypes. They are different things. They do not refer to the same thing.

Your entire debunk relies on your interpretation of those things being the same thing, and the only foundation of that assumption is that the word "archetypal" shows up in their descriptions, when everything else about their descriptions is different.

I am sorry, but I have to ask. Have you actually read Through the Gates of the Silver Key? The entire thing, not just the 5 line quotes people bring up when they're debating who wins. Because I feel like if you had, it would be obvious to you that they aren't talking about the same thing, because they are talked about in relation to entirely different things, several paragraphs apart from each other. When the two quotes are put right next to each other like that, it becomes easy to make your mistake of assuming its talking about the same thing, but it's not.

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#7 Posted by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

The primary mistake you are making is that you think "archetypal infinity" refers to a place outside space time that Yog lives in.

I'll re-state the quote but substitute locations and finite numbers for the "archetypal infinity" to show what I mean.

You think that the quote reads like this:

The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to [New York]

In other words, you think that the [New York] is a literal place that the relationship of form-cut-from-higher-dimensional-form stops at.

What you should be reading the quote as is:

The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to [1000000000000]

In other words, that the [1000000000000] is a numerical expression of just how many times the relationship of form-cut-from-higher-dimensional-form repeats itself.

I don't really care about who wins this, but I had to correct the people who were saying Yog was only 6-D.

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#8 Posted by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, to those who think that Yog has no feats other than just being a really big blob that knows a lot, Yog is well, well above someone like Hypnos, who "had designs which involved the rulership of the visible universe and more; designs whereby the earth and the stars would move at his command, and the destinies of all living things be his"

Given that Yog Sothoth is the All In One and One In All, Hypnos is part of him and he can do anything that Hypnos can.

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#9 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@zerothcause: this "archetypal infinity" is "ultimate and eternal" infinity which all other infinities are just a small part of. The "archetypal infinity" isn't a location outside space and time - it's just the ultimate number infinity.

One big infinity that lesser infinities are apart of =/= true infinity. You can be 6-D infinity (aka Yog since he's above 5-D space-time) that has lesser infinities being a mere part of you and still not be true infinity. True infinity is omnipotence, which Yog is CLEARLY not.

SORRY ABOUT THE WEIRD FORMATTING, I'm not sure how to split up the quote so I can reply to just one part of your quote. I don't know if True infinity is some special term that is synonymous with omnipotence, but that's not what I'm saying. But this is how Lovecraft's archetypes work. Everything that is within space-time is just the result of people viewing a fragmentary part of the archetype outside space-time from different "angles". So any infinity that exists withinspace-time is simply a part of the archetypal infinity being viewed at a different angle.

If you read the infinity from quote "and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity" as a number rather than as a location, then you see that it's saying that each object is cut from the form of its corresponding object in higher dimensional space, and this continues "so on up to infinity".

The "dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity" refers to the place Yog is at, as Yog SPECIFICALLY is stated to transcend FINITE dimensional beings, meaning the archetypal infinity ends at where Yog is, aka outside of 5-D space-time (so 6-D in this case).

I'm sorry, but no. The dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity is not a place. It's a really really fancy way of talking about the numerical infinity. It's reachless because you can't reach it by counting from 0 up. It's dizzying because it's so massive and mind-boggling huge. It's not just the place where Yog lives.

Also

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.

You and @sungsamseem to think that the bolded bit refers to Yog-Sothoth. It's not, it's referring to how everything is a manifestation of one of the the archetypes (The Outer Gods) for other things. Just as there is a Carter archetype, if you were to exist in the Mythos, you would be a manifestation of Outer God that is the zgtfreak archetype.

Yog Sothoth on the other hand is the All In One, the Supreme Archetype. All those lesser Archetypes are just small parts of him.

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#10 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Ok, then I see where the error in your thinking arises

"archetypal infinity" is not a place.

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

There's no capitalisation. It's "archetypal infinity", not "Archetypal Infinity", so its not like a name. And no location in the OG mythos is ever called "The Archetypal Infinity". While there are "archetypal and eternal beings", that doesn't mean that the "archetypal infinity" is somewhere they live - it means that it is an "infinty" of the same nature as those beings.

This is what Lovecraft's "archetypes" are:

all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.

The "Archetype" is the object's "ultimate" form that exists outside time and space. All the different "Carters" throughout time and space are all just the result of "seeing" the true ultimate eternal "Carter" from different angles.

What it means here - and I'm sorry about this @zgtfreakafter just saying that I hadn't used it like this - is that this "archetypal infinity" is "ultimate and eternal" infinity which all other infinities are just a small part of. The "archetypal infinity" isn't a location outside space and time - it's just the ultimate number infinity.

If you read the infinity from quote "and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity" as a number rather than as a location, then you see that it's saying that each object is cut from the form of its corresponding object in higher dimensional space, and this continues "so on up to infinity".

For example, if the quote was "and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to one million", then it's not hard to see that the quote is saying the relationship of "objects cut from higher dimensional objects" continues "so on" until one million dimensions.

Once you see that "archetypal infinity" is literally just a big number and not the name of a place, it becomes a lot clearer.

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