@zeeguy91: I'm aware it's L.L. There are, however, MULTIPLE versions of her and I am only familiar with 2 incarations. The crippled one of Earth Prime, and the Brainiac of Earth 2. Never seen (last name taken a lil too literally) this version of her.
Lol. This IS the paraplegic version. If you'd been keeping up with the series, you'd know that this isn't some alternate Earth version of Lena. This is the main earth version. The mother box that's been hanging around Lexcorp mutated her brain, granting her psychic powers allowing her to overcome her paralysis.
@entropy_aegis:Its really not on shaky ground. People mostly know Deathstroke from the Teen Titans cartoon. And that's still true even after all these years and all those attempts to make him more well known for Batman. And guess what? More people still think of him as a Teen Titans villain.
Really? You may want to check out the more recent title from the mid-aughts. If BATB was ever a Batman title, that characterization didn't stick. Also, several other volumes of the title were launched and they were not centered around Batman exclusively. In fact, the 1999-2000 volume was centered around the Flash and Green Lantern and since then the moniker has been commonly associated with them. And regardless, even if at some point, the BATB was considered just another Bat-title, Copperhead is still more well-known in the DCU as being a communal villain and is not an exclusively "Batman villain."
In case you didn't know, for something to be "well known," a lot of people have to take note of it. I guarantee you more people recognize Copperhead's DCAU appearances than his role in Arkham Origins. I didn't even know he was in that game. I'm not much of a gamer. A lot of people don't play video games. But most everybody watches TV. Also, he didn't mostly fight Batman in the DCAU. Its been a long time since I watched that show, but as I remember it, he was roped into fighting the League by Aresia and didn't really face Batman on his own.
And of course I'm going to call Ayer's supposed motivations into question, especially when the proffered explanation is so flimsy.
It really wasn't THAT big of a deal. And still the point stands, she is NOT the Question as of now. Nor is she even the most well-known Question. That's still Vic Sage. If DC put out a Question title, she would not be the star.
He's still going to be fighting the Titans, no?
Firstly, it doesn't matter even if they benefitted from it, its still DC shepherding them into the Batman universe and them in effect becoming simple Batman supporting characters. They still lose their individual identities. Secondly, I see no reason why those developments couldn't have still taken place but with DC actually trying to separate it outside of the Batman corner. Birds of Prey was founded in and has mostly operated out of Gotham. Why put it so squarely in the Batman corner? They spend short times operating in Metropolis and then in California, but always end up right back in Batman's back yard. Why not bring them into a new setting, outside of the Batman sphere and make the team into a truly DC team and not just...these girls who operate in Batman's back yard.
And in case you didn't know, Maggie relocated to Gotham BEFORE she became involved with Kate as part of the Gotham Central series. It was only several years later that they hooked her up with Kate. But then the question becomes, why couldn't Kate then relocate with HER to Metropolis? Or why couldn't they have just as easily introduced a high profile lesbian character for her to start a relationship with in the Superman comics? Why not Knockout, for example? And she was just as much a "throwaway cop" as Dan Turpin was.
Oh, and let's actually tabulate the amount of times in recent history that Grundy has fought Alan Scott opposed to him fighting Batman. I mean, he did move into the Gotham sewers after all...
Thirdly, Black Canary being a JLA member (and later the leader of the League) wasn't enough of an identity outside of Batman comics?
We also got Jurgens on Action Comics. Another example of recycling old talent. And I'm not saying that Tomasi and Orlando aren't solid talent, but yes, the vast majority of the creative crop and the marketing push is centered on the Batman books. There's no question about it.
It IS crap. People aren't upset that Cyborg is one the League period. People are upset that they erased both him being on Wolfman/Perez's New Teen Titans and MM being on the founding League roster. Its the lost history that people are pissed about. And they're right to be pissed.
And oh really? The X-Men has allowed the majority of their characters to flourish as solo characters? Where's the Jean Grey solo title then? Or what about Rogue or Kitty Pryde or Angel or Beast? See, nobody would say that these characters are not classic or important characters. They are. In fact, its probably their history as part of a tightly-knit team that GIVES them their importance or status. However, they are not exactly character who you would see headlining a solo title. And there's still no shame in that. They belong on the X-teams and that's when they're at their best. So....why would it be bad for Cyborg or Starfire or Raven to have the same status? Cyborg is best known as a Titan. Its what gives him context in the DC Universe. So of course when you erase it, it makes him seem irrelevant.
In the continuity that prevailed for the last 30 years and was remade canon in Nightwing Rebirth? Uh, nobody. Its was a vigilante with no ties to Batman who operated years before Clark's time on Krypton. And the Nightwing entity would still not be a bat. It would be a Kryptonian animal.
You said it yourself. Both Future's End and World's End heavily featured Batman characters. In the case of World's End, Dick Grayson of Earth II (that Earth's Batman) essentially became the star of that comic.
I'll address GL below. And are they putting that much effort into Wonder Woman? Have they launched MULTIPLE Wonder Woman family titles? Is there a main Wonder Woman book and Wonder Girl title and Sensation Comics featuring Wonder Woman title? Uh, no. There isn't. Wonder Woman is a mainstay but even WITH the buzz that's been generated by the movie, they still don't view her as valuably as Batman. The Wonder Woman: Earth One book was dropped with little fanfare, as was the Teen Titans: Earth One book. Why not launch a Sensation Comics title written by Morrison, especially since its her 75th anniversary...
And you know what I'm talking about when I say All-Star. I'm talking about the current title. The All Star brand you're thinking about ended about a decade ago.
And nobody is saying to ape the Flash and Arrow shows exactly, but capitalize on their success. Give Flash and Green Arrow more high profile positions in the DC Universe. Have Green Arrow or Flash act as leader of the JLA. Launch multiple Flash family titles, especially now that we have Wally back. And regardless of whether TV fans will go buy comics, I guarantee that some people who watch the shows are pre-existing comic fans. They might check into more than one Flash title, especially if they're excited about Flash because of the show.
The X-Men run was a collaboration of Claremont and Byrne. So, you kinda did. And at least one of those creators had very well known runs on several other characters, namely Superman AND Fantastic Four. Perez is another example. In addition to NTT, he was well known for his work on Avengers AND his work on Wonder Woman. And then of course, there is Johns: GL, JSA, Flash, Teen Titans, etc. For almost every writer who is well known for only one property, there's another who is known for multiple properties. That is, when they're given the chance to work on a wide array of characters.
Still doesn't erase the fact that FANS know him for his OTHER work.
Oh, and Captain Cold and the Rogues, Earth 2, and Reverse Flash are all parts of the Flash mythos introduced under Wally's tenure? Okay...
By that logic, so did Batman when Schumacher's Batman movies tanked. The only difference is, when that happened, DC didn't throw up its hands and say "oh, well, guess Batman's a dud. Time to move on from the property." If DC had taken the same strategy with Batman in the 60s (when it was an extremely low-selling title) or 80s as they did with Titans or GL, then the property wouldn't be a fraction as successful as it is today. Also, pointing to the Stewart debacle isn't that persuasive, given that (1) they ended up not killing Stewart and (2) Green Lantern Corps under Venditti and Jensen was actually one of most acclaimed titles coming out of DC at the time and was even lauded for its positive portrayal of John. That time in Green Lantern comics actually was probably the ideal in terms of representation of all of the main Lanterns, with each of the four getting their own title.
Also, the change in the format of stories after Johns left, while maybe necessary, did not mean "tear down all the mythos that Johns built during his tenure." They didn't need to kill of the Blue Lantern Corps OR the emotional entities, especially when fans actually LIKED that stuff. Whenever DC feels the need to shake-up Batman's world, they don't kill off the stuff in Batman's world that's proven popular. You couldn't see them permanently killing off Damian at this point now that he's proven popular. Its that cumulativeness and letting Batman's world grow and expand even in the face of setbacks that makes the property successful.
The scorched earth technique that DC adopts with their other properties like Wonder Woman (where they can't even decide on a succinct and permanent origin) and Green Lantern and Titans (where they want to erase the most successful iteration of the team from DCU history) is what holds them back. As long as DC keeps doing that–––and then giving the popular scraps of those franchises to Batman–––they'll never be as successful as they can be and DC will always be seen as the "Batman and nothing else" company.
@entropy_aegis:Yeah it does disprove what you've been saying because you're essentially saying that DS is now more known as a Batvillain than a TT villain. However, that's just untrue. People know him as a Teen Titans villain. The animated series was wildly popular and widely watched by a lot of people. You can't say the same for SoB.
Brave and the Bold was a Batman book? Oh my...then why do these issues exist?
Brave and the Bold was a DC showcase title. So, I guess that's no strike against me, firstly. Secondly, Copperhead faced a bunch of other heroes, as I've said. He didn't just fight Batman. He fought the Justice League and Superboy and the JSA and his successor was part of the Terror Titans. He's NOT exclusive to any hero's rogues gallery. Also, his most well-known media appearance was in the Justice League animated series from Timm's DCAU. He was part of the Injustice Gang. That's not a "Batman exclusive show." So, strike against you.
You said that they apparently didn't have options for a reptilian-based villain. I corrected you. The end. In fact, they didn't achieve anything with Croc that they couldn't have done with Copperhead or King Shark. And I'm starting to think that the reason Ayer gave is simply a pretext for getting in more Batman stuff. If a TV show like the Flash can pull off a CGI King Shark without much difficulty, then a blockbuster movie certainly could do the same.
They've abandoned the Question for now. The point is that Question is distinct and separate from the Batman world. And they've even tried making him part of the whole "Trinity of Sin." That was horrible, but it shows that DC even considers Question as its own thing outside of the Batman sphere.
That's actually funny since Ra's is coming to the Titans anyway (why don't you actually read the solicits). Who's to say Cheshire won't rejoin the LoA and then fight the Titans, since they've apparently gained the League's attention.
I'm not saying every creator has to be good at everything. But the thing is, DC doesn't really bother. Once a creator reaches a certain level of star power, boom! They put him on Batman because they treat Batman and nothing else as their marquee property. As long as that is the attitude, DC will always be the "Batman and nothing else" company. Orlando isn't at the same level of stardom as King currently is. Neither is Tomasi. Tomasi has always been a solid creator but he's never really been considered a breakout or a rising star.
Such as Maggie Sawyer. Such as Black Canary. Such as Solomon Grundy. And now...such as Deathstroke. These are all characters who debuted outside of Batman's world and for a long time had their own independent identities but have been sucked ito being Batman supporting characters.
And how are you still not getting that its THAT kind of attitude that's a problem. Treating any character as "too popular" for any other franchise than Batman is the exact thing I'm talking about. As long as people (especially the decision makers at DC) treat Batman as the only franchise deserving of A-list or popular characters, then Batman will always be looked at by the fans as the only franchise at DC that's worth a damn. There's been points in time when Dr. Doom's popularity definitely succeeded the Fantastic Four's popularity, but Marvel didn't say "oh, time for Doom to move on from the FF."
Again, to play up the anti-Batman angle, you'd have to be diametrically opposed to Batman, which again was impossible. Again, Batman never appeared in the Teen Titans series. Without Batman, Deathstroke isn't anti-Batman. He's just some guy who's trying to bring Robin over to his side, a common trope in superhero fiction.
That's crap and you know it. Nobody I've seen has said they are diametrically opposed to Cyborg being on the League period. What they are opposed to is wiping away his Titans history to do it. Hell, Cyborg was linked to the League before the New 52.
Nobody cared. But that was because he was still a former Titan. Like you said, his history on the Titans made him a better character. When Wolverine joined the Avengers, did they then erase his history with the X-Men? And actually, the X-Men is a great example because a lot of those characters' appeal comes from them being members of that team, and many of the classic X-characters––Nightcrawler, Jean Grey, Storm, Rogue, Kitty Pryde, Colossus, etc.––have rarely (and some have never) had ongoings of their own outside of the X-Men or at least not successful ones. Their appeal comes from being not only mutants, but members of the X-Men. There's no shame in that. It doesn't make them any less classic as characters or any less appealing to the audience. Its just that the company recognizes that being part of a larger franchise is what makes them who they are. Cyborg is the same way. His appeal comes from being a Titan. Same thing with Starfire and Raven. They may have ongoings or minis from time to time, but they are at their most popular (and at their best) when they are members of the Titans or at least have that link. So when you remove that history and try and reinvent him in an entirely new context that outright repudiates the connections that made him popular to begin with, it is just a big disaster.
I'm not dodging anything. I'm just correcting you on what the inspiration behind the Nightwing identity has been for the past 30+ years. Like I said, it was inspired by Superman in either context, not Batman. And you might want to check up on that. In Nightwing Rebirth #1, Seeley specifically references the "Superman told Dick stories of this famous vigilante on Krypton" reasoning. And in fact the internal monologue reads essentially like "People think I chose the Nightwing identity because of Batman. But those people are wrong. It was actually Superman who inspired my Nightwing identity." So maybe YOU should read for once.
Did I say that fanboyism wasn't part of the problem? No. I never did. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. The current management and the reasoning that you've put forth is definitely PART of the problem, but not the whole problem. I'm also not saying that anything is Batman's fault. But its DC's fault for not having faith in any other property besides Batman and for not pushing any other property besides Batman. Who receives the spotlight almost 90% of the time in the DC Universe? Uh. Batman. Who received two weekly ongoings, both of which running for several months to a year, in the past four years? Batman. Who receives a title with the word "All-Star" literally in the title that is chocked full of A-list creative talent? Batman.
You think DC couldn't generate interest in Superman or the Titans or Wonder Woman or Green Lantern or Flash if they put half of the effort behind them as they do behind Batman? Flash is actually a prime example, given that he has a very successful tv show running at the moment. And actually, so does Arrow. I may not be the biggest fan of the CW series, but they are successful. So where are the multiple Flash series? Where's the A-list writer on Flash? Why hasn't DC capitalized on the buzz generated by the TV shows?
If some writers like Tynion and Snyder have a preference for Batman, then that's fine. But saying that they can ONLY work on Batman is bull. A good writer shouldn't be tethered to one character. And if they can ONLY write one character, then they're really not as good a writer as they claim. Claremont and Byrne didn't just do X-Men. Claremont wrote Spider-Woman and Justice League as well. And Byrne went on to do a very successful and influential run on Superman. Dixon also wrote Moon Knight, Green Arrow, and Punisher as well as Batman. Any good writer can take their talent and apply them to almost any character.
And is Johns most well-known in fan circles for what, now? Is it his Batman: Earth One? Uh, no. Its really not. Its his Green Lantern. Its his JSA. Its his Flash. The tagline is just another example of how DC constantly falls back on Batman because they think that that's all the general gives a damn about. Again, no faith in their other properties.
Now you're just fighting battles I never started. I never said that Barry was better or more successful than Wally. But saying that everything he has was given to him by sacrificing Wally is pure bull. Wally and Barry were Flash for equal amounts of time and actually a majority of the Flash mythos debuted while Barry was Flash. All of the recognizable Flash villains, for example. Plus, Barry now has two successful TV shows under his belt, one from the 90s and one that's currently running. However, both Wally and Barry have equal claim to the Flash mantle and should both be around. But again, that has nothing to do with what I was saying.
Again, nothing is Batman's fault. But its DC's fault because they don't capitalize on forward momentum that they get with a property and develop it so that its just as successful as Batman. Johns's Green Lantern was the most successful GL has ever been. So it really wasn't Johns's fanboyism that crippled the title. But as soon as Johns leaves, the franchise fell into disrepair and editorial screwed everything up. There were several reasons for that happening and one of them was the mentality that they constantly had to change things up to make GL appealing. As soon as Johns left, Venditti then spent about a year tearing down everything Johns added to the GL mythos, from the emotional entities to the different Lantern Corps. As long as DC keeps up this scorched earth tactic with all of their properties besides Batman, whose world is somewhat insulated from the wrecking ball, then none of their other properties will catch on to the extent that Batman has. So, DC's favoritism does very much play a role in it, yes.
@entropy_aegis:Is the TT series so far the most well-known and high profile use of DS in other media? Yup. You bet it is. Let's poll people in their 20s (the intended audience of this movie) whether they remember DS more so from the TT series or from SoB or even the Arkham games. Let's see what the response is. You know, the more you talk and despite your protestations that you're not, the more it becomes apparent that you are a Batfanboy.
Actually Copperhead debuted in an issue of Brave and the Bold that co-starred Batman and Wonder Woman. And it was a team-up between the two of them that took him down. Copperhead then went on to have several run ins and encounters with teams and characters all across the DCU, from the JLA to the JLE to Elongated Man to Superboy. He joined the Secret Society of Supervillains in the 70s and was also even a member of the SuicideSquad (something Croc never did until the movie).Then the successor to the Copperhead mantle went on to become a member of the Terror Titans. So Copperhead is as much a Batman villain as he is an "anybody in DC" villain. So, congratulations, you just proved yet again the extent of your ignorance.
And again, Renee Montoya as Question is over. If DC were to revive the Question, it likely wouldn't be her in the title position. They'd probably be bringing back Vic Sage.
Uh, Cheshire would still probably act the same, but they'd mention her LoA ties. She might even bring along other LoA members, and then the LoA would become fodder for the Titans to fight. Unless you're proclaiming to be psychic, there's no way you could say that this is impossible.
How many times has DC actually invested in the Superman property the same way they have with Batman? The Superman comics are actually good right now, but is Scott Snyder (their A-lister) or Tom King (their rising star) or James Tynion (their A-lister's protege) actually writing a Superman comic? Before the New 52 (and indeed after the New 52), there wasn't really a concerted push for Superman creative teams. The Busiek run was a decent run, but it mostly just flew under the radar and didn't garner the attention of Morrison's Batman. Morrison's Action run lasted all of 18 issues (and honestly wasn't even good with him on it) and then the title was caught up in an endless cycle of bland crossovers. The Super office is just not as well managed as the Bat-office because DC doesn't consider Superman or any of their other properties as "important" as Batman. And as long as they play favorites like that, they're not going to have success with anything but Batman. So its essentially a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I have no problem with the Kobra Cult fighting Bat-characters. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. But they should remain fair game for the rest of the DCU. Because in fact, they're probably more well known for their fighting against the JSA and Checkmate. Like Copperhead, the Kobra Cult is more "DCU" than "Batman" at this point. And it should remain that way. I don't mind them fighting Batman, but I also don't want to see them limited to JUST Batman. And let's be honest, previously unrelated characters being absorbed into Batman's world happens a hell of a lot more than characters leaving it.
And you know what that means? He's a Robin/Titans villain. That actually tracks with the comics where his rivalry is with Dick primarily. Hell, he targeted Blüdhaven and had Dick train his daughter. However, that still doesn't make him a Batman villain. Dick with the Titans had a separate identity entirely from the Batman world. What part of that do you not get?? You think Dick would have fought Brother Blood or Trigon or Goth or Blackfire or the Wildebeest Society or half the villains the Titans did fight if he had been with Batman? Its like saying that because Wolverine fought Kang while he was fighting alongside the Avengers, that Kang is now an X-Men villain.
And DS wanting to replace Batman again doesn't mean he's a Batman villain. Like I said, he fought Robin and the Titans specifically. He's a Titans villain.
Uh, actually that's not what people are saying about Cyborg. If you haven't noticed, Cyborg with the JL has been incredibly underwhelming. And his last solo series really wasn't anything to write home about. People want him back with the Titans because when he was with them, he actually had personality. He actually had friends. Has there been anything to replicate the lost Cyborg/Beast Boy friendship that existed in the Wolfman/Perez run in the pages of the New 52 JL? No. And moving off of Cyborg for a second, people are also just pissed that Cy being a founding League member means that the Wolfman/Perez run on NTT, one of the most acclaimed runs in all of DC's history is still out of continuity. The X-Men even aren't what they used to be, but has Marvel written the Claremont/Byrne run out of canon? No.
Actually, post-Crisis, Nightwing was a legendary superhero on Krypton whom Superman told Dick about, which then inspired his taking on of the Nightwing identity. And even the pre-Crisis imagining is still more a Superman thing, given that it was Superman under the mantle and still not Batman, which is something Rucka then revisited when he made Powergirl into Nightwing. But for the purposes of what Dick was inspired by when taking on the mantle of Nightwing, the post-Crisis imagining, which has completely non-Batman origins, wins out. However, either one has Dick being inspired by Superman when he chose the Nightwing identity, not Batman.
And DC rarely preferences their other properties over Batman. If you can't see that, you're blind. You know what caused the sinking of DC's other franchises? The lack of good writing or creative investment. I wonder why that is. Its been this way for years: Batman gets the big names and the other properties get stuck with scraps. And as for moving talent around, I rarely see that. How many non-Batman projects has Snyder been on? One Superman book. That's it. Besides Batman stuff, what did DC do with Brubaker when they had the chance?
Actually, what really notable mainstream (i.e. in-continuity) thing did DC really do with Morrison besides Batman for the years leading up to the New 52. The only thing I can think of was his Vertigo work and 52, the latter of which was like 11 years ago and the former was in the 80s.
If you think DC doesn't have a strong preference for grabbing A-list creators for their Batman titles as opposed to their other titles, you're really naïve.
And Johns is known for Batman work??? Hahahahah. Johns is probably the only creator at DC who is better known because of anything but Batman. Nobody talks about his Batman. They talk about his GL, JSA, and Action Comics.
As of what has sunk the other franchises, yeah it is partly the Silver Age fanboyism. But that is actually driven in part by the lack of creative experimentation and faith in those properties. They don't think Flash or GA or WW can ever go beyond a certain point, so they simply relegate those books to a status quo where they were their most successful and stick some non-exceptional writer on it. If DC had the guts to put as much creative initiative behind properties like Flash as they do behind Batman, then they'd be in a different position. Johns's GL actually serves as an example of how that can work when done well. But unfortunately, it also serves as an example of how, when an A-list writer leaves a property that's not Batman, DC just goes back to putting it on the back-burner once again. They're starting to invest more in other properties with Rebirth, but their follow through is something that will have to be seen in time to come.
@entropy_aegis: The Arkham games, no. But SoB definitely did. Not many people actually watch the DTV movies. And if you think they do, you're a damn fool.
Copperhead. That took all of two minutes to think of.
Doesn't change the fact that she's still not the Question anymore. And of course I'm not saying that Cheshire will take Bane and company with her, but who says she'll no longer be a member of the LoA? And of course Kobra will likely be part of Batman going forward, because everything is part of Batman. DC has become a one-trick pony. That's the point.
Again, not really. Slade and Robin's altercations (as in actual fighting and hand-to-hand combat) were rare or at least limited. Again, even if Slade wanted to "replace" Batman (who he'd never even met before), he still never acted much like Batman. Batman plans and strategizes, but he doesn't manipulate. He doesn't view the people around him as pawns the way Slade looked at both Robin and Terra. Even in Tower of Babel, it was made clear that Batman's contingency plans were more so because of his OCD need to prepare for every eventuality than his devaluing of his friends' lives. And in any event, Slade quickly moved on from trying to make Robin his new apprentice and they just went straight into Judas Contract and Terror of Trigon adaptations.
And the Titans are only in the position they are in because of bad management and constant insinuations from writers and editors that they are in effect the "junior Justice League." You know what only exacerbates that problem? Dissolving everything and herding elements of the mythology into other "parent" franchises. The point is that DC should beinterested in the Titans. They were at one point competing with the X-Men directly for popularity. The only difference is that the X-Men were ultimately allowed to grow and Marvel kept investing in the property by putting A-list talent on the X-books. DC didn't do the same for the Titans when they should have. Johns was pretty much the only A-list talent that came onto the Titans after Wolfman. However, a bunch of those writers also made the mistake of recycling some of the same old concepts again and again and again. They constantly went back to Trigon and Deathstroke when they should have created new villains and new mythology for the franchise.
And let's be honest, part of what actually is holding Cyborg back is because of his move from the Titans to the JLA. The fanbase loves and knows him as a Titans character and have not taken to the change very well. Cyborg and the JLA just don't mesh like he did with the Titans. And his new position as essentially being a character without a past before joining the League, and more importantly without friends, has held back his ongoing.
Yes. Nightwing is a Batman supporting character. However, Nightwing still has an identity outside of Batman. That's the point I'm trying to drive home to you. Comic book Deathstroke could give less than a rats ass about Bruce. He's mostly ever gone up against Dick and Dick is the one who he actually has a rivalry with (at least Pre-New 52). But is Nightwing in this film? Is there any hint of him being in there? No. So we will instead see Deathstroke just be forced into being another Batvillain because I guess they can't use Deadshot now that he's cemented as being on the SS in the movie-verse.
And that's actually not the smartest move. If Deathstroke is such a breakout character, the why herd him into a franchise where he'll be undoubtedly overshadowed. Deathstroke is popular now, but instead of capitalizing on that popularity and putting him in a movie where he can shine and be the attention-grabber, they're putting him in a movie with DC's biggest fish.
And actually, it's not Batman's fault, but its DC's fault for reasons heavily associated with Batman. The problem is that DC treats Batman as essentially the holy grail of their properties. Instead of actually investing in other properties for once, they put pretty much every A-list writer they have in their stable on Bat-related books. Look at Tom King, for example. The guy made his bones on books like Omega Men and Vision (very sic-fi oriented) and then instead of handing him the reigns to the Green Lantern corner, they put him on Batman. And honestly, his Batman has been the least stellar of the Batman books so far.
How many A-list writers and artists has Batman had as opposed to Superman or Wonder Woman or GL or the Titans in recent history? Like dozens, compared to only about 2-3 (if that) for the others.
As long as DC treats Batman as the "best" that they have to offer, the Batverse will essentially just act like a sponge, soaking up all of the best talent, the best editors, etc. And, as this example demonstrates, the best characters. DC seriously needs to have faith in their other properties. And yes, part of that is not linking Batman to essentially every character in the DCU to "bump them up", even if it would be financially savvy in the short term. Because in the long term, you pretty much have to have Batman EVERYWHERE to succeed. And god knows what would happen if Batman's popularity were to decline or the public at least showed some Batman fatigue.
And as for Arrow, pretty much all of the viewers of that show that I know have no idea that Arrow is aping from Batman. A lot of them are hooked on it for the sake of the relationships. And we all know that the Internet is not really indicative of any sort of mass trend. The people who go on the Internet are only those who care enough to say anything. And believe me, that's not a majority of the general audience.
@entropy_aegis: A LOT of that stuff flew under the radar. That cartoon series, for example, was promptly cancelled because a lot of fans...just didn't watch it. Deathstroke is more so sold as a general DCU villain than a Batvillain.
Yes. But unlike Croc, he has long established history with the Squad and was a founding member back during Legends. Also, he's probably more well known for that than he is for being a Batvillain. Croc is a recognizable Batman villain. So when people look at him, they're more likely to think "oh look, more Batman stuff."
And you do somewhat gloss over instances where the LoA have been used as primary antagonists in other characters' stories. Like, for example, the Green Arrow/Black Canary series from the late aughts when they kidnapped Connor Hawke. Also, Montoya hasn't been the Question for several years now. It was precipitated because of the New 52 reboot, but still. And furthermore, what makes you so sure that when Cheshire moves back to the Titans (of she does) that she'll cut ties with the LoA?? I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that. And also like you said, Kobra moved away from Batman and became more of a JSA villain, especially during Johns's run. The Kobra have become more just general DCU villains as opposed to just Batfamily villains. Lady Eve appearing in one issue of the recent Nightwing series doesn't change that, and honestly, that's the way it should stay.
And Prof. Ojo has a history of fighting Hal Jordan. He's a GL villain and a Richard Dragon villain.
And Slade rarely threw down in the TT series. That's the point. Darkseid will still throw down with Superman or whoever when he needs to, but until then, he stays out of the conflict. That's identical to the way Slade in TT operated. Batman, on the other hand, literally throws himself into the fray. He strategizes and calculates, but he never just sits back and lets others fight on his behalf. Also, its pretty impossible for Slade in the TT show to try and "replace" Batman when he never even knew Batman. He only knew Dick. Again, you never even knew Batman in that series. Dick never even mentioned him.
And Slade is a Nightwing villain, why? Did they meet in the pages of a Batman comic? Was Dick with Batman when the core of their rivalry was formed? THAT'S the difference. What makes him a Robin/Nightwing villain and not a Batvillain is because pretty much all of the stories where he has actually been a villain have been Titans or Nightwing comics, almost never a Batman comic. Dick has almost always faced Slade in the context of not being part of "Batman and Robin" and simply being "Robin, member of the Teen Titans" or just "Nightwing."
Also, what gives you the notion that Slade's connection with Batman in the comics is going to come to the full scope of him now being a Batvillain? He fought Batman once in his solo series in the 90s. Then Daniel's run utilized Batman (I didn't read it, so I wouldn't know) and now Priest is simply using Batman in one story he has planned. Priest has also said that he plans to play up Slade's connection to the Titans again in a retelling of the Judas Contract. That would seem to firmly establish him as a Titans villain, no?
However, the funniest thing though is that you think you've won the argument when you haven't. You do know that you've essentially played into what myargument, right? You've proven my point for me that the Batman franchise, like an amoeba, has basically swallowed up everything that was once distinct from it.
And whats more, you don't see that as a problem? That pretty much every popular or major character in the DCU is at some point assimilated into the Batman franchise because DC relies on the latter way too much?
If you make Batman into the veritable Kevin Bacon of the DC Universe, what does that do to the other franchises? Trick question. It in effect makes pretty much every corner of he DC Universe subordinate to Batman. DC essentially becomes the "Batman, Batman, and more Batman (and some Superman on the side)" company, which is the complaint that people have lobbed against it for years, especially when they pull crap like having Batman kill and/or job Darkseid.
Although, I wouldn't expect some Batfanboy to see the problem with that.
Oh, and I realize the Titans franchise is not what it once was. But here's the thing: if you at all want to return the franchise to its former status, you don't dissolve it and assimilate the characters into other franchises. That's especially true now that the Titans seem to finally be getting back on the right track with Abnett. What other notable villains do the Titans have? Trigon and that's about it. DC would be stupid to not try and revitalize the Titans and just fall back into the pattern of being "all Batman, all the time" that they've been guilty of for the past few years.
And I don't care if Arrow tends to ape Batman. I know that. You know that. But the general audience does NOT. In the end, its still about GA. In fact, your apparent distaste for what Arrow does with Batman mythology is pretty much what I think of them using Deathstroke in this movie: its unfairly aping other characters' villains. So why are you sitting her defending THIS movie for doing what you hate Arrow for doing? That is, unless you're just a Bat-fanboy, in which case I don't need you to explain your reasons. I know them.
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