Zapan871

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#1  Edited By Zapan871

@uhu123: Sorry, been busy, but I wish you a merry Christmas anyway.

I am referring to this:

Indicating an amp, whether you interpret it as oneness, the prophecy fulfilling itself or something else entirely.

Him going from weaker than ever (clear hyperbole considering iterations like limbless Mustafar Vader) to gathering all his remaining energy into his last act and then getting some sort of (oneness)-amp upon deciding to turn on the Emperor is not contradictory to each other, and is, in fact, the more likely explanation if one considers consistent power levels, considering ESB Vader was telepathically brought to his knees by a half-serious Sidious from across the galaxy and his equal Luke was stated to be in Sheevs telekinetic one-shot range.

Even without considering Mustafar Vader (and i don't see any reason why we shouldn't include him), that would still include Vader right after he was put into his suit, or when he collapsed a cathedral onto himself and then survived buried alive for days without his suit's life support system, something Vader usually depends on to stay alive, yet he endured thanks to the dark side, something he didn't have against Sidious, given that, you know, he was a Jedi at the end of ROTJ:

Either way, he was immensely weaker than his ESB/ROTJ prime as of 19 BBY. It's not hyperbole, it was a literal statement.

Vader was brought down while he was in his shuttle and privately musing about Luke, he wasn't combat ready at all. And for the record, Luke also did something similar shortly after ANH, and that was in the middle of a space battle, a scenario where Vader would no doubt be far more combat ready, yet we all agree he is far above this iteration of Luke:

No Caption Provided

Thus, that doesn't prove anything in terms of Vader's power relationship with the Emperor. If Vader's mind was "unprotected" during a space battle, I don't see why it wouldn't be while he is in his shuttle musing about Luke.

Not sure why you bring up Martin, who is only an authority on Canon, in a Legends debate, but the "super energy" doesn't come from a random interview, but an officially published source anyway, if you want to go down the "Lucas is a hack who constantly changes his mind"-route.

Martin is an authority in Legends as well, both as a member of the Story Group and especially considering Lucas sold out the franchise in 2012, hence why he deemed SOD as part of Legends as well even though it was primarily created as a Canon comic series:

No Caption Provided

It changes the fact that Palpatine wouldn't be using his powers to their full extend or directly directed at Vader, which is reflected in the novel:

Also interesting to note that Vaders weakness is only empathized in the minutes leading up to actually killing Sidious, not during the act itself, so the notion of Vader being amped while killing Palpatine is not contradicted.

Except that palpatine not using his full power is never stated in the novel and is indeed directly supported by other sources,a notion that isn't contradicted by later sources:

When the evil Emperor, Supreme Master of the Dark Side of the Force, turned the fullness of his malevolence against Luke, Anakin Skywalker suddenly awoke from the curse that had imprisoned him for so long… Shedding his bleak and soulless identity of Darth Vader, Anakin took the full force of his Dark Master’s evil lightning upon himself - and hurled the Emperor to his death.

-- Dark Empire 1 Endnotes

And the novel itself clearly states the lightning was "tearing into" Vader, so even if the lightning was initially hitting in all directions Vader still took the full brunt of it.

And for the record, the Emperor himself acknowledged Vader as powerful enough to kill him, which wouldn't be the case if Sidious could just one-shot him:

Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never. Granted, he was strong enough to kill me. But that only lasted for so long.

-- Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force

So what if Vader's weakness isn't mentioned again? Aside from the fact that isn't true, omission is not contradiction:

Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain. Vader grabs the Emperor from behind, fighting for control of the robed figure despite the Dark Lord's weakened body and gravely weakened arm.

-- Return Of The Jedi Movie Script

As the Emperor continued to strike Luke with his barrage of Sith lightning, Vader struggled to his feet. One leg was broken, and the other wasn't working right.Moving awkwardly, he shifted his bulk to stand beside his Master. On the floor, Luke writhed in agony, and was on the verge of death as he groaned, "Father, please. Help me."

Vader watched Luke curl into a fetal position as the Emperor hurled an even more staggering wave of lightning at his victim. Vader had no doubt that Luke was about to die. His son screamed.

Not just my son . . .

The Emperor unleashed another round of lightning.

. . . or Padme's son . . .

Luke screamed louder.

. . . but my son . . . who loves me.

Luke's clothes began to smolder as his body involuntarily spasmed. Suddenly, Vader realized that he was no longer concerned about his own personal future. Despite all the terrible, unspeakable things he'd done in his life, he knew he could not stand by and allow the Emperor to kill Luke. And in that moment of awareness, he was Darth Vader no more.

He was Anakin Skywalker.

It took all of his remaining strength to seize the Emperor from behind, lift him off his feet, and carry him to the open elevator shaft. The wretched Emperor continued to release lightning bolts, but they veered away from Luke and arced back to crash down upon him and his insurgent apprentice. The lightning penetrated Vader's life-support suit and electrified Anakin's organic remains, but he lurched forward until he could throw the Emperor into the elevator shaft.

Palpatine screamed as his body plummeted down the shaft. Still trapped within Darth Vader's armor, Anakin collapsed at the shaft's edge, but heard the explosion of dark energy that consumed the falling Emperor.

-- The Rise And Fall Of Darth Vader

Yet the Emperor still physically struggled against him:

Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader. The Dark Lord fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet, over his cape, into his heart. Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of strength, hurled him into the abyss.

-- Return Of The Jedi

Vader was never stated as more powerful than ever anyway. Sure, that would be understandable if he wasn't so weakened, but he was, thus the best you can argue is that he retrieved most of his power, a notion I myself can agree with.

And there's another key factor to take into account: Vader's death was attributed by sources mostly to his life support system being compromised rather than any weakness relative to the Emperor's power level:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xJxsgERWzLg/XGVg8XWUv5I/AAAAAAAAYYw/2x2Nru9pStIFG9qiK-b5TYuo6Y9fl4n4ACK8BGAs/s0/1544400104890291921%253Faccount_id%253D1

The vast majority of sources portray ROTJ Luke as an equal to his father, without mentioning any circumstances as the reason for it and some outright contradicting this notion.

Yes, they portray Luke as an equal in a scenario where:

1) Luke was enraged for most of the fight, i.e amped:

https://www.writeurl.com/text/1ns91jqkikgklln4boqt/l9job0ajxxysupro0z45

2) Vader was conflicted, something that was stated by several sources, which would obviously hinder him:

Darth Vader's internal struggles against the faint spark in his soul that was Anakin Skywalker had been thrown into high relief by the Dark Lord's dealings with Luke. The Emperor demanded utter obedience and unquestioning loyalty. Vader vowed to serve his Master, but the words sounded hollow.

-- Star Wars Fact File 55

The Emperor goaded Luke into snatching up his lightsaber, and father and son battled in a rematch of the duel they had fought on Cloud City. During the struggle,Vader's resolve began to flicker as he saw the good in his son.

-- The New Essential Chronology

Set against Luke was his nemesis - The Dark Lord of the Sith. And despite himself, his dark master and the power of the dark side, Darth Vader was beginning to question all that had gone before. Stirring inside was a father's love for his son.

Suddenly the duel was over. Learning that he had a daughter, Vader threatened to turn her if Luke would not join him. Filled with rage, Luke beat down his father, then let go of his anger and weapon.

-- The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection 3

'You'll have to come in and get me,' replied the disembodied voice.

'I will not give you the advantage that easily.' Vader felt his intentions increasingly ambiguous in this conflict; the purity of his evil was being compromised. The boy was clever indeed - Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now.

-- Return Of The Jedi

The fact that this scenario is not mentioned doesn't change its existence. If, say, I were to describe you as an equal to Mike Tyson, but he was weakened or hindered that would obviously change the value of my description entirely, because context is key.

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#2  Edited By Zapan871

@uhu123: That still doesn't change that Vader was "weaker than he'd ever been" with him being stated as "ignoring" his weakness even after he grabbed the Emperor (i.e. after focusing his energy), something that wouldn't happen if he was in the latter's one shot range. Nothing indicates Vader went from "weaker than he'd ever been" (something that was literally stated by a G Canon source, i.e, a source on Lucas' level if you're going by that route) to as strong or stronger than ever, both of which are unsubstantiated statements. Did Vader regain much of his power? Likely, but nothing proves he was stronger than ever. And I should emphasize that random author statements are not canon in and of themselves anyway, per Matt Martin.

And no, the Emperor was struggling in Vader's grasp per primary sources, meaning he could have freed himself with difficulty, and this was against a physically weakened Vader (per multiple sources). "Hatred clouding all his senses" and "wanting to cause Vader the maximum amount of pain possible" are not mutually exclusive with my assertion. Or at least, the former isn't since MF Vader was also blinded by hatred yet, power wise, wasn't weaker than Anakin.

And Luke is an equal to an emotionally conflicted Vader, the latter being stated as such by multiple sources, including the ROTJ novel. Nothing indicates Luke is an equal to a Vader who is not conflicted.

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#3  Edited By Zapan871

If Sidious could amp Vader against Luke, that would mean he was also weakening him when the former grabbed the Emperor and threw him down a reactor, which would also explain why Vader was weakened against Palpatine as per the ROTJ novel. Bearing in mind that Vader was a lightsider when he killed the Emperor, yet he tanked Palpatine's lightning for about 10 seconds.

And keep in mind, Vader's demise was mostly attributed to his suit's life support system being compromised rather than the Emperor's superior power killing him, suggesting he would otherwise have survived. And yes, Sidious was using his full power against Vader.

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#4  Edited By Zapan871

@shootingnova:

Simple; because it reflects an alternate reality of events, not an alternate reality of power levels. This isn't like KotOR 2 where the dark side version is an entirely different playthrough. In TFU, the DS choice is only at the end, at which point Galen's already had his arc and undergone all his power growths.

That doesn't make it even remotely canon, but if you want to use alternate endings, while it isn't really relevant to this specific thread, in TFU 2 Vader stood up after enduring Starkiller's lightning barrage for 30 seconds like it was nothing. And this was an even more powerful Starkiller who was rage amped and further empowered by lightning pylons.

Which is also consistent with authorial intent btw as per Sam Witwer Vader was holding back.

Yoda concedes failure, which is an important distinction. Even where he concedes loss, that doesn't preclude loss by circumstance.

Your point's a good one. The "diminishing returns" take is mostly a logical one, but I think it holds up well enough in terms of evidence as well. The problem is that characters grow through trials and tribulations, so whenever an older character has those, they also grow significantly. We've certainly started to recognise that a lot more recently.

My point is that Oneness Starkiller should be on Palpatine's level and Vader tanked his attack. And as I said in my first post, Vader was already damaged due to having his chest panel and breathing apparatus compromised, thus he would have been hindered while doing this.

Well, Vader himself is a good example of growing through trials, given that he grew noticeably if not significantly after killing Roan Shryne.

Still, that wouldn't cover the difference in potential between Sidious and Zannah, and keep in mind, DOE Zannah could practically one-shot her ROT self.

I actually argued that Revan was part of the scaling on another forum. I think Foundry Revan is not his most powerful Jedi incarnation though, but it's nice to know novel Revan is encompassed as well.

In fairness, Foundry Revan would have been hindered by the Foundry nexus, which was compared to the Star Forge, if he was a Jedi. But he wouldn't have grown much if at all at that point since the Revan novel IIRC given that he spent centuries in stasis. And then as Dark Revan he still scales below TOR Vitiate, who is weaker than TPM Palpatine.

I don't think Tyranus is far below Sidious, though it ultimately depends on who's writing him. Under most of the old Legends authors, I think that wouldn't be hard to believe. In TCW? The gap is pretty stark.

In TCW he was unprepared, though, if you're referring to him being dominated through a hologram.

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#5  Edited By Zapan871

@eredin12:

? Galen was near equal to him before Onesies, he literally made him desperate in the clash, and this Palpatine would one-shot Yoda like fodder

Just saying that even if pre Oneness Galen wasn't close to Sidious, Oneness Galen would be.

About one-shotting Yoda, I don't know but it seems far fetched to me. One-shot is something more in line with a gap as vast as, say, the one between Darth Gravid and Darth Tenebrous, who are separated by 15 or so generations. TFU Sidious isn't that much more powerful than Yoda.

Didn't remember that quote, but in Vader's case it's the opposite anyway, both per statements and feats.

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@shootingnova:

Galen advanced because he was ready to lay down his life even before he entered the Oneness. It was a suicide attack that only built in severity because he was willing to give up absolutely everything anyway. Characters willing to kill themselves often perform monumental and superstandard showings. Note that the pain he experienced (and pushed himself past) isn't attributed to Yoda in any comparable terms in any source.

If we look at how easily he's demolished in the dark side version, when he isn't doing that, he doesn't compare nearly as favourably against Yoda.

The Sidious Starkiller is facing here is at least far weaker, and I was focusing more on Vader, who endured a more potent version of this "amped" Galen's attack anyway (note that I don't have Vader far below TFU 1 Galen).

The dark side version isn't canon, so I don't see why bring it up.

I see no reason to believe that the "external description" is contradicted. Galen pressed Palpatine while literally burning himself alive, then released a surge of energy in a state of Oneness that still failed to harm Palpatine at all. With respect to failing to harm Palpatine, Yoda isn't just in the company of Galen but of Galen in Oneness.

Yoda's standing relative to Palpatine depends on the source. There's definitely some, both primary and secondary, that depict him as Palpatine's equal, while others don't. That's a sharp contrast to Galen's universally depicted inferiority to the Emperor. Again, if we look at the dark side version, Galen was beaten easily.

Yes, and Vader tanked that Galen's attack, so the former clearly isn't far inferior to the PT titans (note that TFU was approved by Lucas, in case you consider him WoG), my point is that at least Oneness Galen is close to Sidious.

And Yoda himself conceded that he lost, thus indicating inferiority. Unless, you're suggesting he could actually grievously harm Sidious with the Force, of course, in which case, yes, the comparison with Galen wouldn't stand, but that didn't happen. Indeed, I have never seen near equals seriously harming each other in a direct Force battle, unless of course you count things such as distractions and the like.

But all in all, I can concede team 2 would probably win, if only because Vader and Galen are far better with the Force than they are as duelists. It depends on which advantage/disadvantage counts more in a battle scenario, though.

Zannah was also much younger at that point than Palpatine, but I don't dispute the point that the Emperor grew significantly. That wasn't a factor in my comparison of Galen and Yoda's feats; I was contesting the description that Galen replicated Yoda's showing when I think they're fundamentally different feats, without regard to the quality of the opponent faced.

Well, Dooku is Palpatine's senior by two decades and he grew "infinitely" despite being 70 as of TPM, which would indicate massive growth, and he clearly has lesser potential than his master as well. And I see no evidence for the "diminishing returns" argument if that's what you're alluding to, though I acknowledge it wasn't your main point.

This isn't really newfound, since at least some variation of the quote had been found years ago but it was considered outlandish by most. Even Silver recognised sources like that, and I found the Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force quote many years ago. What none of us wanted to consider was that Yoda grew significantly from AotC to RotS, so we simply dismissed it as a case of power creep since Yoda went on to equal Dooku's superior in Sidious during RotS.

We know that Yoda eventually surpassed Tyranus in power, so it's only as useful as we can qualify AotC Yoda's powers. That said, it's still very impressive, considering that Yoda can backwards scale over any Jedi Master before him and the Count himself grew over the course of the Clone Wars. I'd say Vader is probably still more powerful, though not necessarily an entire level's difference.

I see, fair enough, though it's hard to view Dooku as far below Sidious unless Yoda himself grew massively and the Count didn't grow much. Btw that scaling would include Revan, as the latter was a Jedi Master even on the Foundry.

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#7  Edited By Zapan871

@shootingnova: I'm fine, thanks

Disagreed. Per the junior novel, Palpatine was desperate to the point of being unsure he could win against Yoda and was disarmed at a later point. It was very much a life-or-death contest for him. Even in the RotS novel where he outright defeats Yoda, he's left in a comparable state to post-Marek despite shocking himself and enduring the suicidal explosion in the latter scenario.

Are you suggesting that Marek wasn't pushed to his limits by Sidious? Even before the Oneness blast, he was prepared to lay down his life to buy time for his friends.

Of course Marek was, with the novel even describing his nerves as going on fire among other things IIRC, and I don't doubt he would have eventually lost in a different scenario, my point is that Sidious is far, if not massively, more powerful than he was in ROTS, and Galen advanced on Palpatine's lightning (and keep in mind he was even somewhat distracted at one point, i.e when he told Kota to protect the senators), something Yoda was unable to do.

Per the film and junior novel, Yoda lost by circumstance (being smaller and knocked further without anything to break his fall). The novel and comic depict Yoda being outright beaten, but they appear to be based on an earlier script.

A number of quotes do state that Yoda was a match for the Emperor, with quotes often simply stating that the Emperor was too strong to defeat, as contrasted to simply being "no match" for him.

The fact remains however that Yoda was also unable to harm Sidious with his attack (unless you count being blasted back a few meters as harm), and you are talking about an external description of events, which in this case is contradicted by the source material if we take "no match" as an indication of being beaten easily. Yoda wasn't Palpatine's equal anyway, and just to be clear, I don't think Marek was either. All I'm saying is that Marek isn't far below TFU Palpatine, which should still position him well above Yoda's league even without Oneness.

He wasn't, but he was exhausted by the fight, which is at best an inference from the TFU fight. I'd accept Sidious having grown significantly, but the nature of the feats are different enough for me to think that Marek was not replicating Yoda's showing at all.

Actually, Sidious would have grown massively given how much people with way lesser potential than him are capable of improving in less time than the 17 years separating Palpatine from his Rots incarnation. A great example of that would be Darth Zannah's huge growth from ROT to DOE (a 10 year gap), and she is the least talented and powerful Sith in the Banite line (aside from Bane himself of course). And I think we both know potential also determines a Force user's growth rate, hence why Zannah could catch up to Bane and surpass him in spite of the latter being able to snap her neck even without his orbalisk armor at the end of ROT.

What is so different when they were both pushed to their limits by different iterations of Sidious, and Vader tanked the attack of someone far more powerful than Yoda, with Galen being in a Oneness state at the time? Keep in mind that Yoda didn't have to protect his friends, and he wasn't surrounded by stormtroopers and Vader himself, but was forced to flee anyway.

Considering this, Vader even as of TFU can't be far below Yoda and Rots Sidious, especially when he is fresh. If he was, he would at least have been brought near death by Marek's attack, and then healed by the Emperor or be forced to recover for weeks/months in an Imperial facility, or he would have been incapacitated at bare minimum, all of which didn't happen. And he had 2 years to grow until ANH (which is where his >Anakin/MF Vader quotes apply).

But I'm actually curious, especially given Dooku's newfound hype due to his near equality to Yoda in power, at least as of Aotc, which seems to be pretty consistent: do you have prime Vader above him, on his level or below him?

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#8  Edited By Zapan871
@shootingnova said:

@zapan871: It isn't clear to me that Marek "replicated" Yoda's feat when he literally gave his life to hold Palpatine off, which is hardly the same as a contest of (near-)equals. "Desperate" or not, Palpatine was unharmed by that explosion which left Marek dead. TCSWE confirms the disparity by stating that "Starkiller was no match for the power of Darth Sidious".

By contrast, sources generally acknowledge parity between Yoda and the Emperor, indicating that he could not defeat Sidious, but usually not stating outright that he simply wasn't a match for him.

Hi Nova, it's great to see you back, how are you?

Anyway, my point wasn't just about Marek's Oneness blast, so much that he clearly made the Emperor "desperate" and was advancing on him, something Yoda was not capable of, being pushed to his limits by a far weaker Sidious.

Being no match simply means Marek was not an equal to the Emperor, but then again neither was Yoda, given that he lost, and it doesn't indicate any kind of vast disparity between them. You might argue that Galen died, but that happened because he was trying to give his friends the opportunity to flee, whereas Yoda was alone, and it doesn't change what happened before the blast anyway.

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

-- The Force Unleashed

Sidious factually wasn't really harmed by Yoda either, just pushed back, and the fact remains that Vader tanked an attack far above the grandmaster's power level given Palpatine's growth between ROTS and TFU, and mind you we have examples of lesser Force users like Zannah growing hugely in even less time, yet Vader endured such an attack in a gravely hindered state, ergo beings far below TFU Sidious can't really harm him with the Force, which was my point.

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#9  Edited By Zapan871

Team 1, at least in a Force battle. Vader tanked the Oneness attack of Galen, and the latter, even before that, replicated Yoda's feat against TFU Palpatine who is far more powerful than Yoda, with the Emperor being described as "desperate", thus Vader is, by feats, capable of enduring Force attacks from beings far above the grandmaster and Rots Sidious, which fits very well with all his Vader>Anakin quotes (which, mind you, refer to ANH Vader, 2 years after TFU), and keep in mind he did this when his life support system was compromised due to losing his helmet and chest panel, both of which are the most important elements of his suit, meaning he had to keep himself alive through sheer willpower while tanking Galen's attack.

Note: this has nothing to do with Vader's power relationship with Galen, so there's no need for Vader and Galen fans to be in disagreement, at least in this context. As Vader said to Ahsoka: "We need not be adversaries".

I could see team 2 winning a lightsaber duel, though. Indeed, I think they would.

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#10  Edited By Zapan871

@darthor:

True, but he was additionally angry in that instance and most certainly gained an extra amp

Do you have proof that he was angry and then became even angrier? Because that's what rage amps are. And by that I mean something like Maul vs Sidious on Hypori, where Maul became more powerful than ever.

Unless there is some context for Kibh becoming furious in that particular instance, the quote could easily indicate that he unleashed his base power on those houses. He is an insect compared to even Tenebrous'master anyway. Remember that this is just a former Padawan.

Regardless, this is the Lord Fulminiss feat you were talking about:

Widely regarded as one of the greatest Sith sorcerers in the Empire, the enigmatic Lord Fulminiss is a master of the dark side’s most arcane and lethal aspects. The grotesque Harrower assassins are his most famous creation, but legend has it he once summoned a raging storm of pure Force energy that disintegrated a rebellious city of natives in the Imperial-conquered Jabiim system.

-- The Old Republic: Codex Entry: Lord Fulminiss

Noticed the "legend has it" passage? It means that the feat is unusable because it's only a rumor, a legend, and seeing as we are talking about a Sith specialized in Sith sorcery, he could easily have used a ritual to perform it. It's an undefined and unconfirmed feat either way.