Yasindermann

Both fictions operate on a pure layer type system, so the hax each of them possess is of no importance here (I am not fond of layer based hax though). In any case, I am not sure on ISSTH, maybe the layers are just an analogical representative of conceptual transcendence rather than math based/R>F layers. If it is the former, then I know for certain that Meng Hao shitstomps.

7

Pralaya from DC

This ability seems to be a slow process that requires time (As you said that the Scarlet King gets stronger the more you think about him, indicating that the process is progressive). Lucifer and Beyonder (in his initial state) could probably just squash him right after the fight started then. And even if temporality is not an issue in this case, the difference in authority is. If we assume that the ability triggers instantly, it would basically be an instance of an ''error 404'', as the first one is the will of an omnipotent and the second one is an omnipotent. This would not even be a matter of reaction time, Beyonder and Lucifer are just by their nature more fundamental than Scarlet King.

Basically, the point can be reduced to this: Lucifer and Beyonder are both omni-locks, they are immune to absolutely any hax.

Intuitively, I would still say that the Scarlet King wins against the Beyonder in his non-initial state, as Beyonder basically reduced himself to being susceptible to physics manipulation and raw power.

Problem would be that they would not be referring to true omnipotence then. It is a false equivocation.

There are other occasions where he was declared as omnipotent. This was also stated by the author. So, the idea basically is that Beyonder in his intial state was a fully omnipotent being, but nerfed himself throughout his stay in the marvel multiverse. Him nerfing himself was also shown on multiple panels. This might go against most intuition people have (Most people think that omnipotence is an essential property that cannot be lost or gained), but this is an unsupported and arbitrary extra-assumption. Contingent omnipotence is basically the counterpart to essential omnipotence. Beyonder by evidence falls under the latter.

Since it is the case that Lucifer embodying an omnipotent entities will is contingent upon the validity and existence of said omnipotent entity, I will provide this scan. You might now point to the scan where it is stated that the Presence was shaped by external forces but ''shaped'' does not indicate any kind of contingency on any external entities nor does it mean that the Presence was created. ''External forces'' might just refer to compositional, but nonethless abstract ideas Presence took as a blueprint in order to give himself a certain physical appearance. Parts which are basically not inherent to him, but the blueprint or the ''notion'' at it's core must exist in order to take upon that form (Which would be a non-nominalistic explanation. Since DC does not go by nominalism, that does not really matter). You might also say that there are different interpretations of DC (Postulated by different authors) where the Presences omnipotence is undermined (Which is really questionable), but you can interpret those instances as taking place in different and distinct possible modal worlds for example. There are a multitude of solutions to this, but I do not want to be guilty of ''shotgunning''.

And how is omnipotence ''practically'' non-existent in fiction? If you are refering to the stone paradox, this one is easily to refute. Omnipotence just means the ability to do any possible thing which excludes illogical propositions (Since illogical propositions are not ''things'' or even tasks that are performable). But this is a technical issue, not a practical one, which is why I am interested.

Pre-Retcon is most likely a contingent omnipotent and Lucifer literally embodies an omnipotent being's will. Team stomps unless SK has something on that level (Which I think he doesn't).

If we argue that Pre-Retcon Beyonder is not in his initial state in this match-up, then he might actually get defeated by the Scarlet King. But Lucifer should win this quite handily.

it is just a concept used to discribe eru as the author, much easier to use a term than a full explination

Well, terms usually come with baggages (i.e explanations). But if meta-omnipotence in this case just means that Eru is the author, then that is still invalid, especially if in this context, the term implies metafictional abilities. It is impossible for a fictional character to be the author, except for when it is a self-insert or if ''author'' in this case would not correspond to the conventional definition.

however if you dont like that, i can just say tolkien stated that eru was the writer not him

That would only be viable if the author inserted himself within his work of fiction as something beneath Eru, but even then, it would not have any particular implications for their power level.

and he also stated that eru was not a fictional god, he was also the real christian god, meaning he would have devine power both inside lotr and outside in the real world.

This segment implies metafictional abilities again. In any case, this statement is loaded anyway as it implies that the christian god is real.

''Devine power both inside lotr and outside in the real world''

The first part of the sentence is fine, the second one not so much (The first part is viable if you agree that multiple omnipotents can exist across different possible worlds, thus only allowing Eru to only exist in his specific verse. Or you can also appeal to the intepretation that it is the manifestation of a true, omnipotent god existing in all possible worlds). Either you can apply fuzzy logic to get rid of all the contradictory statements (Which would really just be ad hoc and nit-picking) or you can admit that this entity invokes the principle of explosion.

@even123321

You know, I just looked up meta-omnipotence and the only thing that came up is an article from Suggsverse wiki. And the thing is: Like most entities and notions in Suggsverse, the idea is basically just an incoherent mess that is completely unusable in debates. It invokes the principle of explosion and is also guilty of Russel's paradox. Paradoxical notions (Even if they are intended to be paradoxical) are to be dismissed simply because of the fact that you need a logical foundation for debates to begin with. Dialetheism is also just an incoherent, ad hoc-ish mess.

And metafiction is also not a valid idea or concept.