Wyldsong's forum posts

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#1 Posted by Wyldsong (9639 posts) - - Show Bio

@destinyman75: Thank you my friend. Glad you enjoyed the debate.

@owie: Thought you might be interested in the outcome of this.

@oceanmaster21: One more heads up my friend, but now that I finished up my last post for this, I will start working on my next post in our debate ASAP.

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#2 Edited by Wyldsong (9639 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: @higherpower: @awshucks: @the_red_viper: @vsw: @destinyman75: @floopay: @manaman: @madscientist224: I think I got everybody. Hopefully it was worth the read. Regardless of how the vote swings, I think this is a discussion that myself and @floopay can be proud of. Sorry for the wait on this. I probably will come back and correct typos, which I know are there, but I wanted to get this out there. Unless @floopay wants to say or add anything else, overall, this is finished. Sad to see this finished, but it was a fun experience.

I think we can open this for votes, so feel free my friends...

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#3 Edited by Wyldsong (9639 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: First of all my friend, I want to open this with the fact that it has been a pleasure doing this debate with you. For one, you have given me the opportunity to present Sonja as I feel she should fully be presented. In past CaVs, I just don't think I quite got there, either with the debate feeling like a full blown respect thread, or with me failing to truly clarify the versions of Sonja, causing confusion and misunderstandings in the discussion. Again, I do have an overall vision for Sonja, and of course my own theories on how it all connects. While I didn't lay out the sum total of how I feel it all connects, since it wasn't really needed overall, I think I got the point across here.

Now beyond what you have allowed me to do here, we also had what was probably one of the most unique CaVs on these forums to date. Two fairly obscure characters from the realms of fantasy works: A fearsome and magical/supernatural centuries old dire panther fighting a fiery haired goddess blessed warrior with multiple lifetimes dating back to the dawn of man. Seriously, who would have thought of such a match? I think we have each proven quite a bit about our respective choices in this little bout. I have truly loved everything about what we each have accomplished here. Still, all good things must come to an end. So let's work on finishing this.

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As I write this, I have a glass of mead by my side, and am listening to some viking metal bands to feel moderately in theme. Basically, I will drop some responses and closing thoughts to everything we have discussed, and there won't really be anything with new feats...except maybe one or two things to reinforce what I have already talked about. Basically no new ground will be broken here, barring one small thing I meant to bring up but forgot to talk about last post, which is her swords. It should not alter the "landscape" of the discussion, since I have already stated that they are meant to harm and kill magical beings. Of course, nothing new here, but let's start with those wonderful and deadly weapons...

The Blades:

Obviously, Guen can tank a lot of damage from mortal weaponry. Sonja's two main blades though, are not mortal weaponry...I brought these weapons up in my very first post, and I made mention of what they can do. So this is nothing new here, I am just detailing them out, since I forgot to do it in my last post. I don't want consideration for these blades to fall by the wayside, so I am getting it in now. We will start with the Blessed Hyrkanian Blade.

Blessed Hyrkanian Blade

In a crossover with the Witchblade, Sara faced a foe known as Ragniel, a fallen angel that had such power, that even the abstract and adaptable weapon, the Witchblade, could not harm it. I can give you a rundown of the Witchblade's credentials, but overall, it is a living weapon that adapts to it's foes, and has killed monsters, demons, gods and more. What it all came down to was that Sara needed to retrieve Sonja's blade from it's resting place in the modern times to take down Ragniel. Once she was able to retrieve the blade, she faced off against Ragniel, and took her foe down thanks to Sonja's blessed blade:

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Again, this was a foe that the Witchblade, with it's mountain to city busting energies, it's taking down world ending threats credentials, could not even manage to harm. Yet Sonja's blade, defeated this powerful foe. This is a sword that has taken down deific beings, and more. This blade has also displayed energy projection type abilities, but since it is used so very little, I won't bother breaking it down, and ignore that aspect of it for this discussion.

I don't think I need to lay down it's credentials any further, since I want to keep this short...so let's move onto her other blade...

The Sword of Sorrow

There are two forms of a Sword of Sorrow, which would be a lesser and greater sword. Sonja obviously wields a greater version, but the best example of what these blades can do, comes from a Vampirella/Jennifer Blood crossover, in which Jennifer is facing some evil nasties, that she empties her guns on. Which as you can see, doesn't slow these creatures in the slightest:

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Jennifer was gifted with a lesser Sword of Sorrow, and being in a jam, facing foes she couldn't harm with her weapons of choice, uses her blade to take the baddies down:

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Since you did not argue a BFR scenario (which seems like it could be in Guen's capabilities to pull off), then I will leave this next aspect of the blade as more of an interesting side note, not really a piece to argue. The greater blades have shown the ability to allow their bearers to travel through dimensions and time. It's not really something I see Sonja trying to pull in combat, not unless Guen tried to trap her in that realm she travels to...but since you didn't argue it, I won't bother with the examples, as I would have to dig through a few books, and in the end, it would truly be neither here nor there. So let us move on from here...

The Stats:

My point is that Guen is significantly stronger than Sonja. As strong as Sonja is, you have scans of her flat out admitting she isn't as strong as Conan and Tarzan. The point I'm trying to make has nothing to do with the caliber of opponents she is facing, it has to do with her actual strength. Tarzan and Conan are shown to fight against gorillas, bears, and even forest elephants.

What I have to point out, is that while Guen may be stronger, those opponents weren't entirely shown for the caliber of their skills, nor their notoriety in the world of fiction. Conan has thrown a ship's mast through the hull of another ship, and Tarzan has snapped a pliosaurus' jaw, among other things. Much like Spider-Man, Hobgoblin, and other foes with superhuman strength, arguably stronger than Guen, they haven't managed to truly overpower and keep her down, even in the hand to hand ranges of combat. To reiterate, it is her unique combination of her own tonner level strength, speed, and skill that allows her to manage such.

Though the forest elephant he was using tools and etc. to overpower.

To be fair, he was using a massive tree trunk or log of sorts to tip the elephant. Superhuman feat of strength no matter how you look at it=)

While I can readily admit that Guen is the stronger of the two, that fact is made negligible by Sonja's showings against other tonners. Plus we have to consider the fact that Guen has to successfully snag Sonja to overpower her. With her combat feats against the likes of Vampirella, Spidey, Conan, and so on, plus the numerous examples of her reactionary ability against arrows, crossbow bolts, magic blasts and more...I tend to think that more often than not, Sonja would successfully react to a blitz from Guen. Take for example the time that Sonja was facing three demonic wolves, all at once. While facing down and killing two of them, the third leaps at her with a blurry kind of speed. Sonja reacts last second, flipping around to the creature's back, and cracking it's jaw open while probably snapping it's neck as well:

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That creature had the element of surprise, since Sonja was busy killing it's two equals. Yet she still manages to react to and counter it's leaping blitz attack and she took the beast down. Sonja is quick and agile, with unbelievable combat senses/awareness. I mean, she is fast and stupidly precise with her blade. Another pretty awesome feat, a swarm of magical slug/leech things came flying at her and her companion. Sonja manages to slice and dice all of them, without one landing on her, and then aids her companion, managing to slice some off of him, without cutting him but removing the leeches:

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She has some scary ability, like the time a superhuman foe was charging her, sword drawn. She let the foe get in close, who was already swinging his blade. He catches her blade as he attempts to cut her down, but before he can finish his strike, she had already pulled his very own dagger, and stabbed him with it:

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That is some scary speed and skill. He was already swinging his blade for a kill shot, and she pulls his own dagger from the sheath on his body and stabs him in the head with it. Yowsa.

Sonja has been cut deeply by standard, steel weaponry. Guen has taken blows from bladed steel weapons from post-human levels of strength with only minor injury

Now on this point, feats of Sonja getting cut and taking such damage, are fewer and further between. Namely because she is just generally flat out better than most of the foes she faces:

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Still, I dug around, and found you some feats of her dealing with piercing damage. I showed you her taking a sai through her hand a few posts up, and she didn't even flinch. From one of Sonja's lesser eras, we have a showing where she was being ambushed, and she knocks her two followers out of the way of the barrage of arrows, taking two to her flank. She rips them out, and proceeds to stomp a mudhole into her foes. Now as a defense for Sonja there on not noticing them until they were set to attack, she was still recovering from a deadly poison that nearly killed her, and was still fairly weakened from the experience. Plus, it wasn't Sonja in her prime=P

Another good showing comes directly from Sonja prime. She walks into a heavily guarded keep, soldiers with drawn bows surrounding her on all sides on the walls that were all around her. There were also soldiers on the ground level with her, and the arrows had ropes attached to them. The archers on the walls were accurate enough to miss their allies on the ground level, and they attempted to tag Sonja. She dodged and deflected the majority of the arrows, taking a few scrapes, with an arrow straight through one of her thighs, with ropes draped over and around her. She manages to cut some of the ropes and not be overpowered by the soldiers holding the remaining ropes, plus she blitzed and sliced and diced them, without slowing down any little bit, regardless of her injuries:

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Now sure, her guts aren't hanging out, and she isn't half melted, but she has tanked damage from piercing and cutting weapons, without slowing down. It's just that her avoidance, is top notch. I have less of those kind of feats, because Sonja manages to avoid a lot of that kind of damage. Guen's claws and teeth could harm her...but Guen has to be able to land those hits.

My point is that Guen is facing off against creatures who are at or past the low tonner category. Half-Giants and Half-Ogres can throw around 300 pound rocks like they are footballs. Full blooded ogres, verbeeg, and drider can throw double that. Riding lizards, horses, oxen, and some of the mystical creatures she fights can carry several thousand pounds with only mild encumberance. Yet Guen is able to physically outmatch them all with the strength of her muscles.

Sonja has faced the same caliber of massive foes, if not larger and stronger. Foes larger than mountains that can cut them in two, and foes that tower over cities, creating tidal waves. She has rocked great white sharks with her punches, cracked the ground smacking tonner trolls with a staff, deflected strikes from the larger than Guen beast, the Thunderbull and evaded leaping and large demonic wolves, cracking their jaws and necks with her bare hands. I have shown all of this. While Sonja isn't physically overpowering all of them, her strength, skill and speed are all at just the right level to deal with these foes. Oftentimes playing a game of avoidance with her reflexes, speed and agility, and then cutting them down.

There is no direct comparison to be had between the two in how they have dealt with their more massive and stronger foes. Each is very stupidly impressive in how they have handled such. My overall point is and has always been, that even with Guen's strength and size advantages, it's all a moot point if 10+ tonners can't manage to contain her, and if she can manage to dodge and redirect Guen's attacks. Which I think we have sufficient enough evidence to say that she can...

Again, I have no doubts Sonja has fought faster, my point is that Guen is incredibly fast not only in terms of travel; but combat speed as well.

And here, I really and truly have no disagreements that Guen is incredibly fast. I think she is fast enough that this won't be an easy battle. Although, like you said, Sonja has faced faster, plus she has managed to tag foes with spider-sense. Guen's own skill/experience, plus her overall size and speed, with the ability to mist out to another plane of existence, makes this a truly unique challenge. It's one that I feel Sonja is up for, and one that I think I have proven that she has the ability to conquer.

Again, this is something I believe Guen has in strides. If we are talking blunt force durability, both have more than enough feats against the 10+ ton range of opponents that we can almost call this a stalemate.

Agreed. I still think Sonja can rock her with a punch though, if she managed to rock a great white shark. I am not going to argue that it would take Guen out, but it could be a good move to knock back a massive foe=)

I've also shown her take axe strikes, bolts, arrows, swords, and other attacks with minimal damage. She's got a fair amount of resistant towards steel, stone, and wooden weaponry. Which I believe will be an asset. It's also a good showing of her pain tolerance. Guen can fight through wounds that would easily kill others. She's fought despite being partially melted from acid, or with several of her bones crushed from a cave-in.

On this front, this is where I have less to bring up on Sonja's part, at least from the receiving end of such attacks. Her blunt force, electrical, and explosive resistance are all pretty darn high. I have shown you where she has tanked some piercing and cutting damage without being slowed down...it's just that she generally manages to avoid such damage. I mean, in a weird showing, she faced a supernatural werewolf like creature that she couldn't harm with conventional weapons, at least on the outside. She maneuvers herself to get swallowed by the creature, then cuts her way out, killing it. So she is pretty hardcore and durable. Still, overall, I have to argue the avoidance game for Guen's claws and teeth.

What has to be said though, regardless of Guen's durability...she is facing a foe that tends to decapitate her enemies, slice off limbs, or even just cut them in half. Which she has done to larger and armored beings than herself. This is all stuff that I have shown. Plus, there is her insane aim. What I am getting from Guen, is that while she has a wicked FTE and blitz game, the overall dodging game seems to be on a lesser level than that of Sonja. Sonja's aim is dangerous. If we review some of the major things:

  • She has managed to clip a bugs wings with a thrown dagger at night by the flickering light of torches
  • Tagged foes with perfect head shots while sick and dying of a plague that made her blind
  • While on the deck of a rocking ship threw a sword to another ship and buried it in her target who was up on the mast
  • Made perfect kill shots in mid combat while not even looking at the foe
  • Made a perfect dagger throw into a foe's skull to paralyze but not kill them and so on

All of which has been seen in previous posts. To add to this, she can pierce metal helmets with a dagger throw, pierce the skull of a massive dragon through the mouth with a sword throw, and can kill two foes with a single sai throw. Her ability to tag foes with perfect and deadly accuracy, coupled with the force of her throws...I daresay that even Guen would have issues, considering Sonja is accurate enough to land straight kill shots, and would be less about areas that a foe could obviously survive. Plus, she is wielding two swords that have the ability to really harm the supernatural. Sonja still has to manage a kill shot, but one of these swords, burying deep into Guen, with a kill shot in mind...I don't think she is fighting through that.

Alright my friend, let me finish up one last segment, and we will get this closed out.


Overall, my point of talking about Sonja's senses, isn't to put them over Guen's. All I am aiming to do, is prove that with her superhuman senses, coupled with her speed, reactions and skill, is enough to counter Guen's stealth and speed.

One of the biggest advantages, is Guen's ability to pretty much sense everything. Guen has a supernatural sense that allows her to discern opponents from a distance. She is said here to be able to track the difference between an elk, a rabbit, and a mindflayer. Not via their smell or sound; but by the aura produced by their being.

Seeing auras, does make it a difficult prospect to hide from Guen. That is something that not even the vaunted Conan can do. I will give you, that hiding from Guen with such senses, probably not going to happen. So, let me hammer home my points about Sonja's senses. You see, Sonja's senses are well above and beyond that of a normal human, I think I already proved that. Her senses don't work like a normal human's though, and are in fact, described as working in a supernatural manner as well:

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While Sonja can't see auras, her senses don't work in like a normal human being. Hearing colors? Seeing sounds and smells? Even Wolverine's senses don't operate like that. Guen has faced superhuman senses, but not senses that operate like Sonja's. So she will be lacking in the experience and knowledge to avoid her senses in the manner that they operate. To add to this, Sonja is a beyond proficient tracker:

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Her senses and skill allows her to know when she is being stalked, even when she can't actually see her foe. She is able to keep track of a supernaturally powered hunter in the woods, without ever laying eyes on him:

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Another good example of this is when she detected the Picts, who are basically the equivalent of woodland ninjas in their stealth and sneakiness while in the forest. She could feel them watching her, noting the silence of the forest, and drew her weapon, ready for the attack before they made it:

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Sonja is acutely aware of her environment, keeping track of even a flock of birds, and noting their direction of flight, and what it meant:

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Let's put all of this together, and tackle some points. Sonja's senses are awesome and top notch.

  • She has managed to instantly react to an attack that happened while she was drunk, snoring and sleeping.
  • She has detected the sound of a bow string that was on the second story of building in the middle of a rainstorm.
  • She has detected the legendary stealth master Tarzan, who was stalking her through the jungle.
  • She has detected supernaturally powered foes that were stalking her in the woods.
  • Detected the ninja like and stealthy Picts in the jungle.
  • She has smelled one single foe that was deep in a cave, while she was on the other side of a valley, with an army between her and the foe in the cave.

Really let that last sink in...she detected one scent across an army (who had fires to keep warm, smoke and all) in a valley, and her target was deep in a winding cave. That is something that outshines simply being able to detect a scent from over a mile. If all of this wasn't enough, she has tracked and tagged a group foes through a forest, taking them out with perfect headshots, while she was sick and dying of a plague that made her blind...

Not to mention her multitude of arrow and crossbow timing feats, many of which were fired from behind, while she was occupied with something else. Plus jumping around and dodging electrical style attacks and more. I am going to maintain, she has the pedigree to detect and react to Guen before she can manage to connect with an attack or manage a deadly leaping style attack. This is a character that has managed to keep up with the legendary Spider-Man in hand to hand and not get webbed up, plus managed to turn a deadly attack from the speedy Vampirella into a glancing blow, and then caught Vampirella herself by surprise. She more than has the combat speed to keep up with and take out Guen, couple that with her own supernatural senses, and I like Sonja's chances here.

Plus we also have to factor in that not every area of the battlegrounds affords for stealth. Sonja could easily move this to one of the open areas.

This feat needs some explaining. These are not only drow warriors; but mercenaries of Jarlaxle D'aerthe. Two of these mercenaries were almost enough to kill Drizzt Do'Urden (nameless fodder troops), and one was able to keep Drizzt's equal at bay for most of a fight (Artemis Entreri). So these are oftentimes considered the best warriors the drow have to offer. Yet none of them detect Guen coming, at full speed, to save the ranger from a lightning bolt. Remember how injured she is, she has not been given any time to recover since the prior statement. Not only does she take a lightning blast full force; but she continues to fight with all her prior injuries.

Worthy feat, but remember, Sonja's blades are exceedingly deadly to the supernatural. As previously stated, she will be more apt to go for kill shots, decapitations, and removal of limbs. She has the aim and pedigree to make her thrown blades and her melee range attacks, really, really hurt. I have given ample examples to prove that she is a master swordswoman, and a surgeon with a sword. Her level of skill and ability, coupled with two magic swords...that just might spell the end of poor Guen.

The rest of your points from your stealth section, I am going to leave be. It's not that they aren't worthy feats, I just feel like I will be treading ground I have already covered in this very post. With that said...let's get to the end of this=)

In Closing:

Alright, before I forget, Iron Maiden for your closer? Nothing but respect my friend. Since I have already used some mood music at one point, I will leave it out of my closing post=)

Alright, here are the overall closing thoughts...this is by far one of the most challenging CaVs I have ever participated in. You brought it up in your closing arguments post, and I fully agree with you on that point. It is a difficult prospect to compare these two, but I think we each made a fantastic go at it. Here is how I am looking at this...


The ability to see auras, makes it hard for Sonja to hide. Now, does Guen win in this category? As stated, Sonja's senses are supernatural as well. Seeing sounds, hearing colors...plus her Wolverine levels of scent detection. Barring plane shifting, I think each can detect the other's stealth abilities, so I will go with a draw on this one.


Drow have awesome senses, but so does Conan. They each have stealthy feats against foes with insane senses and abilities. The main thing that makes Guen the winner in the category, is her plane shifting. Still, with supernatural senses, her combat/environmental awareness, and overall combat/reactionary speed, this becomes a negligible category. I will maintain that even with planeshifting on the field, Sonja more than has the credentials to say that she can react to Guen.


Even if she wasn't a magical beast, the teeth and claws of a massive dire panther would be a worry. That said, Sonja has two magic blades, capable of taking down supernatural foes that otherwise couldn't really be harmed by other means. They each have the means to harm and kill the other. Even without magic weaponry, Sonja has managed to pierce thick hide of sharkmen while underwater, cut full grown men in armor in half, slice through the limbs/necks/torsos/heads of giant monsters and more, pierce metal helmets with thrown weapons, pierce numerous creatures from long ranges with thrown swords and more. Magic weapons or not, the ability to harm and kill the other, is about equal. Draw again.


This is a tough one. The nature of their skills and abilities are so vastly different, it is hard to judge. Each have faced a variety foes, both lesser and superior, and managed to come out on top. Each have shown to be exceedingly talented and versatile in combat. And each have been shown to stomp arse, regardless of their foe's size and skill. Skill and experience is close enough to call another draw.


I have to couple these together, because they work hand in hand for the case of this debate. Blunt force, explosive, and so on, that is about a tie between the two. Cutting and piercing...the main reason Guen pulls ahead, is that Sonja is just lacking in those feats due to her superior avoidance abilities. When it comes to avoiding damage, Sonja takes the cake between these two. While Guen's pain tolerance and ability to fight through damage that would have felled most foes is commendable, I kind of feel like she takes more hits than Sonja in most combat situations. At least in the scenarios that she isn't able to simply blitz a foe=)


Guen is stronger. I cannot argue that, although as shown and stated time and time again, Sonja's particular blend of her own tonner strength, skill, speed and reactionary ability, makes this a negligible category. Guen may have more mass than Conan, Tarzan, etc...but Sonja can rock a great white shark with a punch (between 1,500 to 2,400 lbs on average...quite a bit more than Guen), and has managed to deal with larger foes, without getting overpowered. Plus Sonja's striking force with a thrown blade or simply swinging a weapon in her hands...more than makes up for her lesser strength.


Guen has the faster travel speed. Her combat speed overall, is pretty insane, and will keep Sonja on her toes. Yet as you admitted yourself, Sonja has just plain dealt with faster opponents. She has managed to tag the likes of Spidey (spider-sense and all) and managed to avoid his webbing, which is arguably faster than a bullet. While Guen can cross 50 feet in the blink of an eye, and may rival a speed equal to that of a record breaking arrow shot...Guen is far larger than an arrow, and Sonja has a history of casually reacting to and dealing with arrows, crossbow bolts and more. Fired from behind, in a swarm in front of her, and from all around her. Numerous smaller but equally speedy targets, that are harder to track with the eyes than a 600 lb panther. Sonja takes the cake in combat speed and reactionary ability.

Overall Verdict

I think each has the capability to take the win here, but the overall champion based on everything seen and discussed, I have to stick with Sonja. Guen is a scary foe, and would not go down easy. The problem is, most of her advantages can be nullified.

  • Strength is negligible with her avoidance and her superhuman striking force plus magic weaponry makes up for her lesser strength.
  • Each I think has more than the ability to detect the other with their supernatural senses and awareness...so overall, stealth is negligible as well.
  • Guen has the greater mobility with plane shifting and her travel speed, but Sonja boasts the greater combat speeds and avoidance abilities. She has dealt with faster, and Guen is easier to see than an arrow or crossbow bolt.
  • Plane shifting leaves a telltale dark mist, and the stealth advantages of that can be nullified in an open area, where mist is easily spotted.
  • Their weapons can harm one another, although Sonja has the advantage with her deadly and insane aim, of which she can toss regular weapons with a crazy striking force, and she can throw a magic blade just as well. One throw of either magic weapon, can end this fight.
  • Each are insanely skilled. It is just Sonja's skill coupled with her advantages, is just enough to give her the win, more often than not.

And there it is...

Phew...alright, I think that will about do it for my part in things. Let's close this out with a quadruple threat for my Red Sonja cosplay hawtness, being the last post and all:

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Well...I guess that is it. Kind of sad to see this end...but it is time to open the floor for the voters...

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#4 Posted by Wyldsong (9639 posts) - - Show Bio


1. I’m not arguing against Aspen ripping the water from Storms body. That’s not my point. The point is any water based attack as in projectile or construct or turning herself into water is useless for those will be turned to Mist very quickly.

I am going to say, I don't think Storm is turning Aspen into mist on the basis that she did it to Hydro-Man. While I checked the instance and it is impressive, Aspen's water control over herself and water in general is far greater than that of Hydro-Man (considering she can perform nuclear fusion to create heavy water and so on). Not to mention, we are talking about her having a whole ocean to manipulate near her. Water heals and rejuvenates Aspen, and being near a large source of it, again, unless Storm has misted an entire ocean, I just cannot really get behind the idea of her managing to keep doing this to Aspen. Aspen can go water form, hang out in the ocean itself, blending in with it.

Plus, there is the level of her water attacks. She can one shot entire naval fleets (and the jets and helicopters flying around the fleet along with it) and draw enough water to the sky to darken the countryside to create storms. Do we have examples of her misting that much water at once, and misting the water that is under the control of a water manipulator of Aspen's caliber? I can get you scans of all of this by the way, just not right this second.

Though even if she did manage this, I think you at least agree it would only be a matter of time, and that she would only be delaying the inevitable. So, I won't argue it too much more.

2. Let me clarify. Not being in-her water form. What is her resistance to high forms of electric energy.

When channeling energy, she is generally in her water form, since it is mid combat. The best you see with her actual physical durability is withstanding the pressures of the deep, tanking tonner level hits, tanking a missile fired from a fighter jet and getting immediately back up, and being in a machine while performing nuclear fusion in it and creating heavy water. Couple that with her healing and reforming from having her body disintegrated, you can see why she is a tough foe.

There was one instance where a woman with mystical abilities and tech managed to knock out Aspen with a form of energy while in her human form, we just don't what it was that she used, and it was a prep scenario. That is where specialized knowledge of the Blue/Black comes in handy.

3. Ok, so you have scans of her doing so above water? Morals off Storm is more likely to use Kinetic Energy (Wind) and Lightning. So your comment of Storm creating Storms is unlikely due to the fact she will try to bombard her with Hurricanes, Lightning and a bunch of F6 tornadoes. Storm is not going to use rain here at least not if she is morals off she won’t.

While in a domed area under the sea, this was an open air environment mind you, she pulled moisture from the air around her foe, and released the energy, knocking him out. And while out of the water (but near it), we have one of her blowing open a creature that had a hold of her:

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And here she is taking moisture from the air and gathering the energy from it to blow apart some prison bars:

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There are more examples of her drawing moisture out of air and blasting down security doors and more. Plus firing off energy blasts and the like, plus the Blue Sun effect and so on. Basically, the overall point being, she doesn't need to be beneath the water to release the energy from it. What would prevent her from doing so to creatures she is facing, would be her morals, though she has killed before as you have seen. Regardless, without morals, she is probably more likely to use the Blue Sun effect or just straight up rip the water out of Storm's body. The releasing the energy bit, is more less just another option that could be feasible, since as you have seen, she has done it, and it can be deadly. Probably not her primary go to in a morals off fight.

4. I know her options that’s why I have conceded. I don’t sense any form of you being combative. The fact of the matter is I know now Storm can’t beat Aspen, but stated once more isn’t going down easy.

Like I said, I know Storm would not make it easy, so we are in agreement for the most part.

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#5 Posted by Wyldsong (9639 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by Wyldsong (9639 posts) - - Show Bio


1. To your first paragraph, yes I know that. Which is why I said that Storm would not be able to put her down, or be able to beat her because Aspen is able to survive without a body. I got that I understand that. But the point is any water based attack regardless if she is able to reform from mist is useless is the main point I’m making. Now this energy attack you speak off is it a form of projectile or what? If it is indeed a projectile I don’t understand why Storm can’t just dodge it? Is it light speed or what? Now this “Blue Sun” affect I can agree Storm cannot dodge that.

Unless Storm can mist the entire ocean, it doesn't matter. Then, how does Storm distinguish Aspen from the rest of the water that she looks like? Water based attacks aren't useless, since Aspen can use the very water in Storm's body. The Blue sun effect, just kind of appears when Aspen summons it, and releasing the energy from water...imagine a water molecule, be it in a person's body, the ocean, or the very air, suddenly turning into energy. She can make projectiles, sure, but she can just release the energy from water.

2. To your second mini paragraph I’m not sure what your trying to say here other than dispersing energy. Let me ask you this what are here resistance to high forms of electric energy?

The second paragraph had nothing to do with resistance, just her releasing the energy from water. If she is water, without a body, nervous system and so on...not much electricity is going to do to her. Her body has survived in the nuclear ranges as an FYI.

3. The only way that would happen is if she somehow got Storm underwater. Now, the location picked for the battle the OP never said they are standing next to water. For all we know Storm could be flying. An attack as what your describing(from the looks of the scan you posted) seems to be happening underwater. I don’t think she’d be able to drag Storm down to the depths of the sea if she is being bombarded by Lightning, Tornados, Hurricanes.

Not really. That is an example of her releasing the energy from water, she just happens to be underwater. If Storm, create's storms, which involve water, then energy can be released from it. I can give you examples of Aspen surrounding foes with water drawn from the atmosphere and releasing the energy, or overcharging foes with the energy from the water in their very bodies. She doesn't have to drag Storm to the depths to even just rip the water from her body. Morals off, this is all on the table.

4. As I said to you on post #31. I can concede and retract my comment of Storm clearing due to Aspen’s ability of being able to survive without a body. And to add to that her having stronger Hax Abilities than Storm. However, as I said Storm isn’t going down as easy as many may think.

No worries on any of this, and make no mistake, I am not trying to be combative, I am just laying down the options. I can and will gladly provide more scans, just cannot right his second. It is just that without morals, this gives me a lot of ground that could be covered with Aspen, from releasing energy, to the blue sun, to ripping the water from Storm's body...none of which are attacks that can really be dodged, and do not require projectiles. A morals off Aspen...would be a terrifying foe even in the JLA upper tiers levels.

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#7 Edited by Wyldsong (9639 posts) - - Show Bio

@mooty_pass: Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Storm would make anything easy. It is just that Aspen has taken down massive water based attacks from a multitude of city level water manipulators facing her all at once. Aspen can pull the moisture from the very air, and manipulate the very water molecules in Storm's body. Plus, Aspen has energy attacks that Storm just flat out has no defenses against, while Aspen can heal, reform and so on, with complete control of the water molecules in her body. Plus if Aspen releases a "blue sun" effect, Storm can't really dodge it, since it just appears around her foes (this a nuclear based effect from the water):

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And this was another member of the Blue she did this to, though it is her underwater race of the Black heritage that allows her to do this...she is mix of both races.

And Storm, playing with storms and making rain...plus with all of the water around, Aspen can just release the energy from the water:

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Which disintegrates even massive ocean monsters. Part of Storm's biggest advantages, comes with using forces based on Aspen's bread and butter. Aspen can even create storms based on her abilities. We have a massive body of water with the ocean, and Aspen can turn into water, without Storm being able to distinguish her enemy from the ocean.

Storm is a tough foe, don't get me wrong. I just don't see her taking Aspen in a morals off battle. Not even in a minority of bouts, not without intel and prep, and possibly a battleground that isn't 100% suited to Aspen, like this one is.

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#8 Edited by Wyldsong (9639 posts) - - Show Bio
@mooty_pass said:
@wyldsong said:
@thunderbolt30 said:

Possibly stops at 5 or 6.

Aspen with morals off could definitely win. Storm could brain scramble her too though (unless Aspen has a defense to that).

Aspen has energy control, complete control of her molecules, healing/regen, and often turns into water in combat, so there would be no brain to scramble.

If she is turning into water as often as you say in combat, Storm would turn her into Mist every time as she has done with Hydro-Man.

The problem with this is, Aspen can and has reformed from complete and total disintegration, plus I would argue her control over water is a bit beyond that of Storm (she can make full blown forcefields, control and release the energy from water, make water float in the air to carry things and trap creatures, separate oil from water and float it away from the ocean and more). Plus, the battle is by the ocean...all Storm will be doing is wasting her time with the mist bit, since Aspen can easily reform, heal, add and subtract to her mass, with plenty of water to work with.

Aspen is truly and honestly on another scale of power as compared to Hydro-Man. He truthfully wouldn't even be a blip on her radar. Now, I don't want to make Aspen sound invincible. She truly isn't, but her weaknesses do entail some detailed knowledge of the underwater race of the Blue...which is information Storm would be lacking here.

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#9 Edited by Wyldsong (9639 posts) - - Show Bio

Ouch...Wonder Girl is DC's new powerhouse I guess=P

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#10 Posted by Wyldsong (9639 posts) - - Show Bio