@vsw: Thank you sir=)
Wyldsong's forum posts
@defiant_will: Alrighty my friend...here is the next post...let's rock this thing=)
There will be some rebuttals to a few things in your post, but overall, I am going to lay down a few key things for my debate here. I need to prove that Dragon has staying power in this fight through avoidance/healing/durability, and has the striking force and combat ability to put Hulk down for the count. This post will be longer than my last attempt, but I will do my best to keep things concise, and without a whole lot of filler...no promises though...before I get into this, there is one thing that I want to show...
Amy Dragon, who is Malcolm Dragon's daughter and Savage Dragon's granddaughter...she has the powers of the Dragon bloodline. At a young age, like maybe 4 or 5 years old, not fully matured and not at the height of her powers, she was capable of this. This is what "Dragons" at a young age are capable of...and here...Hulk is facing a fully matured and at the height of his powers Dragon. This is simply some food for thought...anyhow, let's get into the actual debate...
The Staying Power
Now, let's talk pain tolerance. Dragon has powered through a hell of a lot of pain, sure, but I am questioning how applicable this is in this fight. I feel that people tend to overblow how relevant pain tolerance is in fights. After all, it can't stop your body from getting knocked out or physical limitations brought on by injury and damage. Sure it can help you to power through injuries, but that can only take you so far when your body is heavily damaged.
Pain tolerance actually plays a huge part in battles. As a paramedic, I have seen the effect pain can have on a body. How it affects your decisions, thought processes, vital signs, and general mood. People that don't deal with pain well, aren't always the most rational and clear headed of types. Pain has heavy psychological effects on you, and can have various physiological effects besides just the damage done to your body (increase in blood pressure, heart rate, and respiratory rate, which can in fact cause some fairly problematic issues for you). Enough pain and stress on the body can even cause you to pass out...so a high pain tolerance, and the ability to deal with pain can be very handy. I won't go into detailed explanations beyond that, but pain tolerance is actually pretty huge. The ability to fight through the gnarly kind of damage Dragon has taken, and not miss a beat is a pretty big thing.
But the fact that Hulk is merely fighting with his two fists doesn't convince me that Dragon's pain tolerance will be that big of an obstacle to overcome.
Hulk hits hard, right? His hits, should cause some serious internal damage, broken bones, and more to foes that aren't durable enough to withstand such. While I will make a case for his durability, pain tolerance should not be undersold nor overlooked here. This isn't meant to be the end all be all point of this section, but it bears heavy consideration when you have things like:
- Dragon had his arm disintegrated, a hole blown threw him, when he then fell from the top of skyscraper, landed on the pointy spire of a church, pulled himself off one handed, and went on to beat to two super-villains who had previously matched Dragon's strength in prior encounters
- Had his arms blown off by a foe and manages to crack a joke and keep at it
- Dragon was initially knocked out for a few seconds by a combined superpowered attack from a group of foes, who then started piercing him with several large spear like objects which woke him up, and he not only kept on fighting, but he managed to remove the objects while beating them - note that Dragon was holding back a lot in this fight, those foes were mind controlled allies
Dragon's pain tolerance is insane, and his ability to fight through such, even more insane. I daresay there isn't anyone in the current MCU with his level of pain tolerance. That said, let's look at some durability stuff...
Now the creator statement claiming that Dragon can take the pressure of Earth's center is a little bit questionable as it isn't supported by feats to my knowledge. Dragon tanking the pressure of the ocean depths would require far far less durability than that of tanking the pressure in the center of the Earth, which would be in the tens of millions of PSI as compared to the mere thousands of PSI found in the ocean depths
As for this particular point, I am not going to spend a whole lot of time defending the statement Larsen made. I will say that Larsen has been nothing if not consistent with his portrayal of Dragon, and with Dragon's feats of durability, he doesn't have anything that would make me think he is anything less than what his creator states. He has tanked a city busting explosion, survived comfortably floating in space, and has even survived escape velocities/partial re-entry, all without issue. Those three feats alone put him in a class pretty far above the majority of MCU characters. What we have to understand is that part of Dragon's power set is adaptability. His healing factor adapts his body, which has made him stronger and more durable than his first appearances. So he has grown by leaps and bounds from issue number 1 all the way to his last appearance. Anyhow, if we want some more examples of his awesome durability:
- He is in fact bullet proof
- Tanking the explosion of a massive airship and being blasted into the ground
- Tanking another massive explosion
I can bring up stuff like this all day long, but let's talk about tanking some fists head on. There is a whole hierarchy I have that I can lay out for you, that runs from the likes of Dragon all the way to Supreme and the gods. In an effort to keep this short and succinct, Dragon has faced characters up in the Supreme tiers in head on battles. Supreme who was Image's answer to Superman and can pretty easily lay down 500 megaton level strikes. Take for example, Image's version of Thor, who also wields Mjolnir. This guy, hits hard, like really hard...to the point that he shakes the city, collapses multiple buildings and creates massive fissures with his hits. I am not really sure there are many in the MCU that can pull off those kinds of hits. Thor is a guy that can manhandle and one shot even the likes of Mighty Man, who is just a few steps below Supreme, around maybe the level of Glory (which puts them in the range of the Invincible comic upper tiers). The gods are definitely very powerful, and on another level here...
Dragon can tank attacks from this power level without being one shotted, and can rock and harm such foes with his own attacks. Those were scenes from two different bouts there with Thor, and in one of them, Dragon was in his Kurr personae. Note that Thor was pummeling Dragon so hard, that he was creating a tunnel with the force of his attacks and Dragon's very own body through solid ground (and doing it with the seeming ease of a hot knife through butter), and Dragon still continues the fight. I have not seen anyone in the MCU pummel a foe straight through solid ground with hits like that. As impressive as MCU Hulk is, even his Leviathan feat doesn't compare to Thor's strikes there. I am not advocating that Dragon is just going to no sell every one of Hulk's punches, but Dragon has tanked hits from foes with higher striking forces than that of the MCU Green Goliath, and has kept on fighting.
Even with all of that, I still have more I can bring up, but I will save that for the next post if needed. I have to maintain, that in light of everything shown last post, and shown this post, that Hulk is going to have a next to impossible time in actually doing any lasting damage and actually putting Dragon down. Especially with his feats of tanking damage from Supreme level foes...foes that are a bit above and beyond Hulk and the MCU in general.
Let's close this section out with another hurdle for Hulk to overcome...Dragon's healing factor...
It should be pretty obvious from all of the feats I have shown, that Dragon has a pretty impressive healing factor. You have seen him lose arms and such, and in later showings, he obviously has all of his limbs. A few quick examples of his healing factor though:
- Eyes grow back in seconds
- Grows a new foot overnight
- His healing factor has even reversed full blown transmutation into chocolate, took a few minutes on this one
- Impaled through the torso with a foes arm, dropped to the ground, and the torso wound is shown healing pretty rapidly
While it can be taxed, his healing factor works pretty insanely fast. There is more I can bring up on this point, but beyond Fox Deadpool or Wolverine, both of whom aren't introduced into the MCU proper, there is no one in the MCU with a healing factor as awesome as Dragon's, since I am quite sure no one has managed to heal back from full and total transmutation. His healing factor even takes care of nanites:
So right here, we have three heavy factors to consider for Dragon's staying power in a fight: His pain tolerance, his incredible durability, and his pretty wicked healing factor. He has a lot of staying power in a fight such as this, and I am having a hard time seeing MCU Hulk actually putting Dragon down for the count.
Now lets have a look at his strength and striking force in a little more detail...
The Striking Power/Strength
Hulk's best durability feat of being bullrushed through a skyscraper and having said skyscraper collapse on him is a very impressive durability feat considering he took very little damage from it despite the accumulated punishment he had tanked up until that point. That is easily a large building level + feat.
While I agree with you that's Hulk's feat is large building (+) level, I think Dragon's striking feats are being under-served here just a little. I am not a math wiz by any means, but to be able to cause the collapse of a building by punching someone into it...that is an utterly insane amount of force. It's a feat that I have yet to see anyone in the MCU perform. To be able to punch a foe into the atmosphere, and then have a long conversation before that foe crashes back to the ground...I haven't seen anyone strike another foe that hard in the MCU either. I am not trying to claim that Dragon would one shot the Hulk here, but his hits as previously presented, are going to be more than enough to cause some damage to the Hulk. Factor in his ability to harm someone on Image Thor's level, and we have a guy that hits hard enough to make himself known to higher tier opponents than MCU Hulk. Let's look at an instance with the Forever Serpent...
There was a Savage Dragon run called "God War", in which the gods had to face the Forever Serpent. This was a massive, god ending beast, and it was tanking attacks from multiple gods, many in the power ranges of Image Thor and up, without budging. Well excluding Zeek, who is the ancestor of Atlas, and was the most powerful guy there. Dragon is one of the few that managed to get this god killer's attention and rock it with a strike:
In the end, it did take quite a bit more to put this thing down, being a heavy hitting team busting kind of foe, but Dragon did something a lot of the gods could not do. He is similar to Iron Fist, in that his striking force is well above and beyond his physical stats. Couple that with his fighting style and skill...and you have an opponent that can cause even the toughest of bricks headaches. Speaking of tough bricks...let's talk a bit about a showing that combines a bit of strength and striking force...when Dragon took on Thomas John Mccall aka Badrock...
Badrock sits in that class 100 strength range where he can go toe to toe with some really heavy hitters. Even Glory was wary about letting him get his hands on her, and this girl is strong enough to knock Supreme for a loop. Note that Badrock looks like a girl there due some evil magics that had turned him into one. Also note how it is stated that he is one of the strongest beings alive in the Image U. Badrock has been shown to be physical equals with the likes of Stormwatch's Fuji, who has tangled with a few Mr. Majestic level foes and held his own with them. Can't show the whole fight obviously, but it ends in a draw between the two. He has also managed in hand to hand against the 100+ ton Spawn foe, Violator for a bit.
Plus Badrock has also shown to be physically equal to the likes of Pitt, and Pitt has proven himself strong enough to hang with an insane Supreme for a bit (who can hit hard enough to equal a 500 megaton explosion), making his hits felt and managing to keep up in combat, plus also fighting Green Hulk (the Professor Hulk personae) to a draw in one story...this is a seriously a very impressive display on Badrock's part.
Badrock alone would be an exceedingly difficult battle for any of the MCU bricks. So, Badrock versus Dragon? Pretty even battle, with Dragon pulling the win and arresting Badrock. Just some snippets from the fight, can't show it all, but it was pretty even until the end of the fight when Dragon took the upper hand, and ends up arresting Badrock. This was a 13 page battle by the way in the comic. If Dragon can deal with such strength and harm the likes of Badrock, then I daresay that Hulk will not fare much better. Still, let me up the ante a little more...
He used to star in a short lived series, then found new life as a back up story for awhile in Dragon's books. This is pretty much a Superman-esque character, without the restraint, and no real regard for property and so on. First, let's talk about his durability...three atomic bombs were dropped on him, vaporized the island he was on, and he was absolutely unphased by them. Yup, pretty darn high durability there=)
And for some strength feats:
- He pummeled a guy straight through the planet and that foe came out on another continent
- Relocating a massive chunk of city (buildings and all) because he was angry at the neighborhood and wanted them arrested
- And of course, there was the time he used every building in a city as a weapon (which all seemed to be multi-story skyscrapers), and was casually running them through a foe. Note the ease that he lifts and uses the buildings
This guy is definitely on another level. Megaton Man shows up in the Image Universe through a dimensional transportation device due to a case of mistaken identity to put Dragon down, thinking he is a villain of some sort. Dragon not only tanks a beating from him without being one shotted or dropping, he rocks Megaton Man with his own attacks, and this keeps going for 10 pages until they can get things cleared up. Sorry, too much to show, so you guys get the highlight reel. The fight ends when Dragon can finally explain he is a good guy, and MM realizes his mistake. Dragon's combination of durability, pain tolerance, healing powers, and general skill and combat style, kept him going against a foe with strength levels far, far superior to the majority of the MCU (no one has pummeled a foe straight through a planet as of yet that I am aware of). Dragon's own strength, with his fairly insane striking force allowed him rock this superior foe with his punches, which based on what I have already shown, should not really be surprising.
Dragon is not a foe to be taken lightly, and he more than has the strength and striking force to hang with MCU Hulk here:
Yes...he did punch out a fighter jet there in one hit. He also has done things like this:
Let's talk a little bit about skill and combat ability, and get this bad boy closed out...
The Skill and Combat Ability
Phew...this post is going to be my longest so far in this debate, so I am going to try and keep this quick and to the point...I just can't promise it will be all that short...so let's start here, when Dragon was first exiled to Earth, with no memory of his past life as the evil Kurr, Dragon was able to take down two experienced members of the Vicious Circle gang with ridiculous ease, in his first fight ever in his new personae:
There is also the scene from where he shot a gun for the first time, and he did it with a superhuman level of skill and accuracy. He has also shown the speed, aim and timing necessary to shoot Wesley the Killer's bullets out of the air....yes, that Wesley the Killer...so where does this savant like combat ability come from? While it's never fully explained, we know things like aiming is part and parcel of the "Dragon" power set, and we learn this thanks to Malcom when he is hit with a chemical that removes the powers of those injected with it. Considering Malcom is somewhat of a combat savant himself, overall combat ability seems to be part and parcel of the power set. That being said, we also know Dragon was trained in his Kurr personae:
Note in the discussion that the Kurr personae does not have the combat experience of Dragon, but Kurr did receive extensive training. It was just never put to the test in actual combat before he was ousted, and the Kurr personae absolutely wrecked everyone he faced on Earth based on his training alone. He was only defeated when the Dragon personae, who was inhabiting another body, put him down:
So it is also possible we are also dealing with "muscle memory" from the training his Kurr personae had. In addition to this, Dragon has also been trained in Earthly martial arts by the martial arts master, Dart:
So between power set, muscle memory from past training in alien forms of combat, and active martial arts training from Dart, plus his police training...then couple that with his experience, and you have a truly dangerous foe indeed when it comes to hand to hand. This is a guy that even goes so far as to use Judo-like principles in combat:
And that is something Dragon does a lot. How about a completely powerless Dragon? How does he fare in combat? Quite well actually. In a scene where we don't get to see the fight, Dragon takes down three super powered foes by himself, and again, he was completely powerless:
Bear in mind...Dragon is not really physically at Cap's level while depowered, though he is still experienced and skilled. Then later on, he fights a horde of super powered foes alongside his son and stepdaughter, holding his own and taking bad guys down:
As well, remember the conversation above, where there is a discussion about Dragon's son, who was trained since birth, and is described as a "younger, stronger, more vital version of his former self"? Basically, this is like Dragon facing a more powerful version of Kurr...the same guy that wrecked the Earth and anyone who dared challenge him. Dragon's unique combination of training, skills, and overall experience allowed him to utterly dominate this younger, stronger, more vital version of Kurr:
Some snippets from the fight. Suffice it to say, Krull did not manage to land one hit on Dragon. Not to mention Dragon's ability to adapt to nearly any combat situation, as seen with the first time we see him fighting underwater (shown somewhat last post). Or how about when he used alien tech, and was web slinging through the city with ease like a certain wall crawler:
It is this adaptability, skill, training, and experience that has allowed Dragon to fight hordes of foes on his lonesome, and overcome the odds:
Dragon was basically the only superpowered cop on the police force, and was the one thing that stood between the human populace of Chicago and the super powered criminals of the Vicious Circle. Before becoming depowered, when the world was in danger, and heroes were needed, Dragon was the go to guy. Facing gods, world ending threats and the like...that being said, Dragon's unique skills, training, adaptability and experience have allowed him to go toe to toe with many foes far outside of his weight class, and it is something that he did on a regular basis.
While Hulk will prove to be a tough foe, he isn't exactly outside of Dragon's weight class. The other thing to point out, Dragon's world is filled with super strong bruisers. Dragon is pretty much beyond experienced in fighting multiple tonner level foes all by his lonesome. Honestly, a one on one fight might even be considered a bit of a break for him=)
Alright, I could have gone into more detail on the speed aspect, but I don't think Dragon is so fast so as to blitz Hulk into oblivion. I do believe Dragon to be the faster of the two, but the key here is, he fights in a completely different manner than MCU Thor and other MCU bricks. Such as with flips and leaps, more akin to Spider-Man at times, often using Judo-like principles in combat and using a foes very momentum against them. And I am not trying to downplay Hulk with this, but less agile and wounded peak humans have managed to avoid him for awhile, like Widow. Considering Dragon uses parkour style moves mixed in with Judo style throws and such...I can honestly say MCU Hulk has not faced anyone quite like that, and Dragon has one heck of an avoidance game he can play here if needed.
Anyhow, from what I am looking at...
- Strength might be comparable between the two with maybe a slight edge to Hulk, but Dragon has faced stronger foes than Hulk and come out on top thanks to his striking force and combat ability/skill, so any advantage in the Hulk's corner, would be negligible
- For staying power, Dragon has an insane combination of durability, pain tolerance, healing factor, plus a combat style that grants him a pretty good avoidance game as well. This has allowed him to tangle with superior foes and oftentimes pull the win
- Striking force...Dragon can harm the likes of Image Thor, Badrock and Megaton Man...he more than has the striking force to put Hulk down for the count
- Dragon is insanely skilled and experienced, with a natural combat ability from his powers and his training as well. Hulk doesn't bring anything to the table Dragon hasn't already faced and overcome in combat
- With his insane aim, Hulk will have a hard time avoiding damage if Dragon decides to play the ranged game with thrown debris and such
Now don't get me wrong, I don't think Hulk will make this an easy fight. It's just that Dragon has an impressive resume under his belt, especially when I can pull from opponents like Thor, Badrock and Megaton Man...and there is even more I can add to this if needed. Based on what we have seen thus far...Dragon should take this after a good little battle, with massive amounts of destruction and witty banter...at least from Dragon, though I am sure Hulk will get a comedic line in somewhere=)
That should just about do it for this post, and I look forward to your response my friend. Sorry if this one was a bit longer, but I did have quite a bit of ground to cover. Anyhow, this time, we will close out with a double shot of Malcolm Dragon's mom and Dragon's former lover...Rapture...
Onto you my friend=)