Wyldsong's forum posts

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#1 Posted by Wyldsong (9573 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo-: Can do bro

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#2 Posted by Wyldsong (9573 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Wyldsong (9573 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta: Well...I have to make a debate of one character against four...the posts will get pretty lengthy, so I figured best to keep the intro light and tight=)

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#4 Posted by Wyldsong (9573 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#5 Posted by Wyldsong (9573 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by Wyldsong (9573 posts) - - Show Bio

@oceanmaster21: Alright my friend, I am re-purposing an intro from an unfinished CAV to go ahead and get this started. As always, my discussion will start on the lower end for her powers and showings, and with characters like Sersi in the mix, I already know that by my next post I will have to ramp things up, but I don't want to play all of my cards at once. Just know, when discussing Lady Death, I do in fact have many, many, many cards to play here. Did I say many? I think I did...

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Some intro music from the band Disturbed, which is very appropriate when discussing Lady Death...

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And off we go...

The Background:

"To know her story, is to know a woman cursed..."

--from Lady Death 0.5

When talking Lady Death, we are talking a complex character with a detailed backstory, and a character that has gone through a lot of character growth from a somewhat evil hell goddess who wanted to bring about the end of all life on Earth, to more of a hero after spending some time on in the mortal realms in a more or less human form. For the quick and dirty of how she, as a mortal woman, ended up in Hell:

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And to note, the story originally leads us to believe that Hell changed Hope into Lady Death, since in Hell, desire equals power. What we later find out, is that isn't the case. Lady Death's powers come from Death itself:

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The other thing to bring up, Lady Death's mother was originally of the Norseman, from the Viking tribes, before being captured by Matthias (Lady Death's father). Prior to her capture, Marion prayed to Odin to save her daughters (Lady Death's half sisters who would go on to become Valkyrie), and he appeared to her, taking the children to Asgard. Knowing her fate was to give birth to Lady Death (who was to be Odin's "Chosen One"), he leaves Marion, but passes a portion of his power to her, to be passed on to Lady Death:

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Overall, the power from Odin was actually used very little by Lady Death, and it was not something she kept in the stories. Most of her actual power comes from being the avatar of Death, plus the Eternal Scythe and her chaos forged sword, Apocalypse. With that out of the way...let's give a brief rundown on the physicals...

The Physicals/Skills:

Overall, old school Chaos Lady Death's stats are well into the superhuman arena. They would have to be to face the cosmic threats that she has faced and overcome. I will dig deeper into each of these stats as needed, but for now, let's take a quick look at the physicals...for starters, Lady Death definitely has super strength, with a good example of this being when a bound Lady Death spit a broken tooth through the thick hide of her demonic captor, blowing out the back of his head like a shotgun blast:

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On the durability side of things, Lady Death who had returned to Earth after a very long hiatus (since Medieval times), while looking at another car (trying to figure out what it is and what is going on), she is struck by a limo full force, totaling the vehicle, with her not budging, and was basically nonplussed by the impact (kind of works for the strength angle as well I guess):

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Her senses are far beyond that of mere mortals. Basically, the best illustration of this is her spotting Bedlam floating in deep space while she was planet side, which would roughly be a distance of what would be the equivalent of the Earth's surface to the Moon or the nearest planet:

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As for the speed...I am not going to try and hinge my debate on speed nor speedblitz arguments. That is not how I envisioned this CaV going. That being said, I am still going to discuss her speed/reactions somewhat here, just starting on the low end of the spectrum. First example comes from when she was mostly human. She awoke from a nightmare, and at the last second manages to dodge an energy blast from a foe she didn't know was there. And we will also add her dodging arcane empowered bullets fired from a point blank range:

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With that brief look at the physicals out of the way, let's look at the skill side of things. Understand, Lady Death has fought and defeated beings that have been waging wars since long before recorded time, when reality itself was nothing but primordial chaos. Prior to her full transformation into Lady Death, she was trained by Hell's Blacksmith, Guardian, and weapon's master, Cremator:

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She learned from the best, and has long surpassed her teacher. For 400 years she has been kicking arse, and leading her undead armies:

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We'll see how the debate goes and whether or not I need to revisit these guys...so moving on, she is also a master swordswoman, and there is definitely no denying that. Lady Death is exceedingly precise and accurate with her blade, like a surgeon, which can be witnessed when she performs the perfect decapitation of 8 foes all at once with one whirling strike:

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I can and will discuss the various foes she has faced as this debate progresses, but to close this out for now, I thought I would go with a great skill showing from when she faced someone while she was more or less made mortal again for a period of time. Her opponent was Chastity. Chastity is a vampire with superhuman stats that has mastered multiple martial arts and weapon styles, and is probably one of the more purely skilled characters in the old school Chaos comics:

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Basically, she mastered every style she was ever taught. When she pits her skills against the likes of Lady Death though (who again was depowered and mostly human), it ends with the more or less human Lady Death taking the win against the superhuman vampiric assassin/martial artist:

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"It ends the only way it can. The way all our dances must end. Death takes the upper hand."

With all of that being said, I think she is more than skilled enough to hang with everyone here. As for the physical stats, nothing I have shown really puts her above the members of your team, and it's not meant to. Again, that is just a slight taste. I have more to bring to the table when needed, and believe me, I know it will be needed=)

The Powers:

Holy cow...there is a lot to discuss here, and I don't want to lay it all out at once. As stated, she has three main sources for her power. The powers granted to her for being Death's avatar, which is basically her necromancy and energy arcane abilities (which covers a wide variety of functions). As well, Lady Death can utilize Death's Eternal Scythe and her sword Apocalypse for a variety of functions, which she generally starts battles with her sword, saving the scythe until it is needed. Finally, being the Queen of Hell also grants her a few benefits. To be honest, Lady Death isn't shy about using her powers to pull a win, sometimes in a bloody, brutal and oftentimes, graphic fashion, but of course, there are always the initial go to tactics in combat. First, let's talk about the basics that are bound to come up right off the bat...

Flight/Energy Arcane Blasts -- Yes, Lady Death can fly. She doesn't need outside items/objects/creatures to accomplish this, and she is more than proficient with aerial combat. As well, she can also fire blasts of her "energy arcane" from her hands/eyes, and empower her strikes with it:

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As for just what "energy arcane" actually is...think of it as a form of necromantic energy from the Reaper himself.

Storm/Lightning Control -- Much like Storm, Lady Death can call upon storms and lightning when needed:

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Rain in Hell...never been done before, so that is why the demon seemed confused. There has never been rain in Hell before, and it was supposed to be somewhat impossible, yet Lady Death did it. Not to say that she will pull a battle of storms against Storm...but let it be known, the Marvel character isn't the only weather witch in this battle.

Shielding, Offensive/Defensive -- She can use her energy arcane to create a damaging shield of sorts, and can create defensive shielding as well:

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Besides good ole' melee combat and superhuman stats, those are probably going to be some initial powers I can see getting called upon for starters. Still, I think we have a ways to go, and there is a lot more to discuss and bring up. The last thing I want to talk about is her sword Apocalypse...you've already seen the shielding aspect of the blade. We'll get into more with what this powerful weapon can do as the debate progresses. For starters though, I need to let you know that this blade was one of the artifact weapons of the old school Chaos books. It was crafted by Cremator, and was forged of pure, primal chaos. It isn't any sort of metal or anything of the like...this is made from an abstract power:

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Also note, that Lucifer, a Chaos Lord (the equivalent of a skyfather in Chaos), noted that it was capable of harming even him...more on that later. We'll get more into the actual power level and ability of this blade, but just so we are clear, this is not just some little magic sword, like the blade "Sting" that was wielded by Bilbo Baggins in "The Hobbit". This is a weapon forged from and of the very primal forces of the Chaos Universe, and it is tied directly to those very same abstract powers. Excluding the Eternal Scythe...this is arguably the most powerful weapon of the Chaos Universe.

And again, it is not a true, physical object, but an abstract power itself. It's not just some special metal that was forged like Mjolnir or other special weapons, but it is a primal force of the Chaos Universe.

The Plan:

This will be short, since I really need to see how you feel your foursome would proceed in this battle. Lady Death is starting out flying over the city and she is facing four unknown hostiles. She has no way of knowing the power levels at play, plus she has no way of knowing that most of your team can fly and has large area of effect style attacks. While I myself know that they will probably end up being useless against flyers and this team, Lady Death knows nothing at this point. She just sees four roughly human looking foes out by the water. Being a strategist and commander, for now, she'll open a gateway and summon her undead army on the ground in the city below her. With her sight and senses, she'll be able to see your team easily.

With her army pouring from the gate, she will await the coming attack with Apocalypse in hand and her magic's at the ready...

In Closing:

Alright bud, this is just the opener, and is just a taste. So of course, we aren't anywhere near to getting into the full power levels at play. I figured what I laid out was a good place to start, and gives you something to work with. We'll see just how much I have to ramp up the power levels being discussed after your opening post.

With that out of the way...let's close with my usual when debating with one of my indie ladies...

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Onto you bro.

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#7 Posted by Wyldsong (9573 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Edited by Wyldsong (9573 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Alright my friend, we are getting closer to the end of this little discussion, as I do believe I just have my closing post left after this one. I will have a few fairly long segments to discuss here, plus a segment similar to what you did in your discussions about Drizzt and the Drow...so without further adieu, let's do this...

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And because I feel like it for this post...a little mood music from the Viking's series...feels appropriate and moderately in theme...

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Resume Building

This section will be a fairly decent read. It will encompass feats that cover a wide variety of topics. I will reference this section throughout this post, but hopefully it will give a really eye opening look as to Sonja's capabilities in combat against definitively superhuman foes...

Conan the Barbarian

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In the last post, I talked a little bit about Conan. We got a peak at his senses, and of course his skill in blind fighting. Conan is one of those characters that a lot of people know, but not everyone knows a lot about. I think it is fair to say that most people understand that he is stupidly skilled, superhuman, and an all around beyond tough opponent for the majority of street levelers:

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Just a handful of FTE style speed feats, strength, skill and so on. Just enough to say that he is fast, skilled, and strong enough to make a debate for against the likes of Guen. That of course, is just the tip of the iceberg with his feats as he has a ton of history and showings. He has defeated stupidly skilled martial artists from the lands of Khitai to immortal beings and gods with numerous lifetimes of experience to massive monsters, beasts dragons and more, plus has fought and killed hordes of foes all by his lonesome. He would be more than a match for average Drow and of course the more skilled and elite versions, like Drizzt would find him troubling, I am sure.

While the two have never truly had a full out, trying to kill each other kind of battle, Sonja has shown to be more than his equal numerous times. Let's note, this is not Sonja prime:

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Even with his superior strength, she can cross blades with him, plus has managed to lay him on his arse, and can catch a dagger thrown by him...check the scans above, and you will see that he is an excellent marksman, even when throwing axes that normal men could not hope to ever lift. Let's also note, that was all a weaker era/lifetime of Sonja in that she was able to pull off those feats.

Tarzan

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This is another one of those characters that many people know, but not everyone knows a lot about. Much like Conan, he has a plethora of feats that prove him to be fast, skilled, strong, durable, stealthy, and most of all, superhuman:

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Throughout all of his eras, Tarzan has been shown to be superhuman. Master of combat, stealth, nerve strikes, speedy, strong, durable...I don't think anyone can deny that Tarzan would give most street levelers issues in hand to hand...if he can manage to kill a Yautja with a surprise attack and a knife...then I am sure there are plenty of arguments to be had with him against the likes of Drow, Drizzt, and of course Guen. Tarzan's strength, should at least be equal to, if not greater than that of Conan, and his stealth skills in the jungle, are reportedly unparalleled. Sonja from one of those lesser eras, the era of Simone, was not only able to detect Tarzan stalking her in the jungle:

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But she was also more than a match for him in hand to hand. Note, this is a character that she openly admitted was stronger and faster than herself. This fight ends at more or less a stalemate, with her tumbling off of a cliff, and snagging a vine last second. Which gives them each a moment to cool off and actually talk things out. Anyhow, some snippets from that epic fight:

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She can wrestle with, redirect, and take hits from a stronger and faster opponent. Again, this wasn't even Sonja in her prime. Tarzan would be deadly opponent for Drizzt and Guen, and would be more than debatable against either. As if this wasn't enough...we still have a few more characters to discuss....

John Carter, Warlord of Mars

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I have seen the forums place this man against a wide variety of foes, but most seem to know that he is definitively superhuman and a master swordsman. It should be noted, the feats where he is busting through or bending metal, Barsoomian metal far exceeds Earthly metals in hardness and strength. So overall, he is probably stronger than Conan and Tarzan, and can make leaps above an beyond that of even Guen:

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While on Mars, he is probably more superhuman than Conan and Tarzan. Strong, fast, skilled, durable, and has an insane leaping ability. That said, there is a demi-plane of sorts known as Worldscape. What it does, is draw in the best warriors from all known realities thanks to the magic of the Wizard Nex. The magics of Worldscape drew in John, and somehow allowed him to keep his abilities from Mars (not everyone in Worldscape got the same kind benefit, only those from Mars). John had to face the champion of the arena...who was none other than Red Sonja. She had defeated the best warriors from multiple realities that had been thrown at her (more on that in a bit), and had to face Carter. He makes one of his signature leaps at her, moving with such speed and force that he cracks the ground with his jump. Sonja shakes off the impact of the attack, and a good little fight ensues until she gets serious, subsequently stomping him in combat. She is about to deliver the finishing blow when the story dictated an interruption to keep a major character alive...but some snippets from that battle:

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This would also be the same era as the Simone Sonja, not Sonja prime...anyhow, let's talk about some more superhumans, shall we?

Vampirella

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This girl is one of my all time, top ten, favorite comic book bad girls. Vee is FTE to vampires that are FTE to humans, far stronger than anyone I am discussing here, is a bullet timer...and is just a bad arse in general:

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Seriously, I can give you plenty of feats for Vampirella. She is faster and stronger than Guen by a lot...once a mile undergound in a bunker, surrounded by FTE vamps, Vampi let's the villains all know that she set off the missiles and closed the hatches, and that they have 30 seconds before everything goes off:

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She blitzes and moves faster than any of them could perceive, slits the vampire lords throat, then moves again, and escaping with her and two human soldier captives before the missiles explode, all in the span of a short conversation:

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Had to cut out the actual explosion, but Vampi and the soldiers were the only ones to survive...she and Sonja had a quick little tussle (until Dracula stepped in and snagged Sonja from behind -- no shame in that when putting all your effort into trying to take down Vampi), but even with her speed, Vee only managed a glancing blow, and Sonja managed to catch this foe by surprise with her own speed:

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While I am not sure I could argue that Sonja would have killed Vee there (would take more than a sword through her glorious chest to do so), Sonja showed fantastic speed and reaction against a far superior foe, avoiding a deadly strike and catching Vampirella by surprise with her own attack. No too shabby overall. This was Sonja prime by the way=)

Hobgoblin

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I don't think I really need to go through his feats. Kingsley is strong and fast enough to go at with Spidey, with his tech also helping to even out the score. They had a battle in a canon crossover between Sonja prime and Spider-Man that happened just prior to Civil War. They end up having a running battle throughout the city, at one point he gets his hands on her and starts to choke (where she has a vision of Mary Jane urging her to help Spidey -- Sonja was in MJ's body at the time), then she snaps out of it and wrestles with Kingsley, knocking him off of the glider, and gets ready to kill him, but is interrupted before she can take his head:

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Six page fight overall and she was the clear winner of that little tussle against a Spider-Man level foe=)

Venom

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Again, this fight happened in the Spider-Man crossover. This guy is definitely an exceedingly dangerous foe, and is one that has shown the speed to tag Pete numerous times. Sonja and Pete battled it out with this exceedingly scary and powerful foe, and Venom injures and tosses Pete quite a distance into some water, leaving Sonja to dodge, cut, and then leap into the water to save the wounded Pete. Bear in mind, Sonja has her blessed Hyrkanian blade here, a magic weapon that is capable of harming and drawing blood from even Venom:

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If this doesn't prove that she can hang with some of the top tiers of street levelers, then I don't know what will prove it. Still, let's do one more and close this section out=)

Spider-Man

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Seriously, another guy that really doesn't need much of an introduction. When people think of the top tiers of street levelers, this would about be it. So again, this is a crossover that happened before Civil War, and to give some background for this fight, Kulan Gath begins to warp reality in New York to remake it to his liking. He had tried this once before, way back in a Marvel Team-Up with Spider-Man and Sonja, back when she was a Marvel character. To help take care of Spider-Man, remembering what happened last time, he uses his magic and with the help of Sonja's sword (on display in a museum), transforms Mary Jane into Red Sonja, and manages to pit Sonja against Spider-Man. I think we all know, even a holding back Spider-Man could subdue Mary Jane easily if needed. In fact, he could subdue the majority of foes with ease with his superior speed, webbing, and can avoid attacks like nobody's business thanks to his spider-sense.

So yes, he was holding back on his strikes, but the point of this is not to argue Sonja's durability against Pete's strength/striking force. She has plenty of other durability feats that I have brought up. The point of showing this, is that while Pete was holding back on the offense, he was not holding back on the defense, and even with his speed, strength and webbing (which is arguably faster than a bullet), he could not keep Sonja contained, even in close quarters combat. She was just too fast and skilled for that. She had the right combination of skill, strength and speed to go toe to toe with him for roughly 7 pages, manages to get up first from a fall they both made from fairly high building to the street, and had Pete dead to rights, if not for Mary Jane still being somewhat present in her own body. And yes, Sonja prime manages to tag Pete and harm him several times, knowing how and where to hit for maximum effect.

Anyhow, a few snippets from that battle:

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And there it is. Sonja throughout many of her lifetimes has faced threats that are well into to the top tiers of street levels, and has come out on top. She is a legit threat and definitely a bad arse, with a highly impressive resume as you can see. Again, she has the perfect combination of skill, speed, strength, and durability to allow her to tangle with and take down foes that are superior in any number of physical stats and skill levels. With this done, let's detail out her skills just a tad more...

Skill

But I believe Guen has shown her ability more often than she is given credit. Being able to fight against many of the most skilled race in Forgotten Realms.

Before going any further, I don't doubt that Guen can take on some truly skilled and powerful foes in combat. That said, I am pretty sure you don't doubt that Sonja can do the same. I think I showcased this quite well in the section above, but I figured I may as well go a little deeper into the skill aspect. I am opening with these two scans, just because I love this scene, and it shows what a bound Sonja prime can accomplish against trained soldiers. Sonja was chained to a wall, and facing four armed soldiers. She kills all four of them with ease with just her legs:

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As a side note, she does get out on her own=)

Now, just how do we go about discussing skill? There are many factors to actually consider here: Training, experience, combat showings, so forth and so on. Just above, I talked about quite a few superhuman and skilled foes that people know about, and I have already discussed how Sonja actually originated the use of tools in killing in a past life. Let's discuss a few showings she has had against skilled personages from her own era, that aren't Conan. First up, there is the land of Khitai, which is basically a country which produces some of the Hyborean Ages greatest martial artists and swordsmen. In Khitai, Sonja faced off against one of their greatest masters of the blade, who managed to disarm Sonja. So she whooped him with her bare hands:

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Sonja also faced off against two of Khitai's greatest martial artists. These guys were capable of moving at slight blur speeds, and were highly skilled in hand to hand combat. She fought them, two on one, and took them down in an impressive display:

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I wish I could show this fight in it's entirety, but note, she was able to kill the first warrior with a sai that was stuck in some chains by precisely manipulating and swinging the chain at the right angle to get her target in the neck.

Moving to a lesser version of Sonja (Simone era), I can also point out that Sonja faced off against another of the greatest swordsmen from that particular era/lifetime. In their first match, Sonja was worn out, losing faith in herself and her mission, and was not at top form. In short, she tried to play by his rules (more or less something along the lines of a kind of tournament style match with silly rules), and she lost. She goes, gets herself straightened out (took a few hours), then challenges him again by starting a real fight with him, and then whoops him with ease:

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Sonja has also faced off against one of the greatest swords-women of the early 1900s. Again from the Simone era, this was a weaker version of Sonja and was from the Tarzan crossover. The big bad of the series, Eson Duul, collected some of the best and most talented warriors throughout time to aid him in his endeavors...which was basically him taking down and hunting legends (like Sonja and Tarzan). Stephanie was one of the best Eson had seen with blade, and took her into his service. She thought she was doing well, until it was discovered a drunk Sonja was simply trying to not spill her wine in the battle:

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It should be noted, the two that were watching their companion face Sonja end up interfering, and it was pointed out that a drunken Sonja was more than her match without even trying. Again, this was not Sonja prime, and was a weaker version from another lifetime. An even better example of her skill and experience, comes when she faces Valcan, aka the Claw (back in the day, he was a prominent DC barbarian type). This was a character that was trained in the realm of the gods (by the gods themselves), and has mastered all known forms of combat. Think of Claw as a more skilled and possibly faster version of Conan. Sonja prime has beaten him in his normal state:

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And in a state where he was amped (faster/stronger):

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Too many scans to show the whole battle, but she ends up slicing off his clawed hand, which ends the fight. I can also point out the time that Sonja faced Raven, who had also received the blessing of Scathach. She had all of the same advantages as Sonja in skill and physicality, though lacked some of Sonja's experience. Of course, Sonja put the beat down on Raven:

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Two snippets from that fight...being four pages...couldn't show them all here. That being said, Sonja is only willing to spare her due to her goddess. Plus there was the time Sonja faced her own doppleganger...basically a copy of herself with all of her skill and memories, but was amped by Kulan Gath's magic to be able to beat Sonja...which failed utterly:

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She has defeated warriors that were the greatest in their lands or the world. She has defeated warriors trained by the gods to be the ultimate warrior in their regular and enhanced states. She has also defeated those that are as skilled as she is, with similar physical stats, and those that were enhanced to be beyond her. It is really hard to think of a time that Sonja in her modern incarnations has ever really lost a fight. She was created to be the ultimate weapon, and is very good at what she does...above I talked about Worldscape, which was basically a dimension that sucked in and trapped the greatest warriors in it from all realities. The champion of the arena from all of these realities? Sonja, of course:

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She is so skilled with a blade, that she makes the spectators and rulers of Worldscape think that her opponents are dead. She skillfully slices and dices them, to the point where most would think they have been removed from this mortal coil and are well beyond recovery, but she has secretly spared their lives, so they could be later healed to fight against their oppressors:

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All over these forums I have harped on the fact that she is a surgeon with a sword, and I say that with good reason. She can gut you, and run you through with a blade, and make it look like you are dead to even experienced warriors, but leave you alive, avoiding any and all vital organs that would kill you immediately. She does this all in the heat of battle..like when she did it to this guy:

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In the scan above this, the one where she is opening the door and you see a guy laying on the table, that was this gentleman that she gutted. Hurt, but more than alive. If that isn't insane skill with a blade, then I don't know what is. Unlike an actual surgeon though, she doesn't need a nice, quiet place to concentrate in to do this. She does it all in the midst of battle. I mean heck, she can throw a blade at an opponents head in the thick of battle, but make sure it is only buried deep enough and in the right spot to incapacitate them and keep them alive, so they can die a far worse death:

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The scene is a little disjointed, because there is too much to show, but in a nutshell, he was going to use dark magic that summoned up evil versions of Sonja, and she turns that magic back on him, making them kill him horribly, as you can see. Also, while Sonja was firing arrows so rapidly that her foes have thought they were being attacked by multiple archers surrounding them, she managed to make all kill shots, plus she fires at least two arrows at the same time with many of the shots:

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Let's also point out, she did this while on horseback, going full gallop, at night, in a rainstorm. As well, with a crossbow, far harder to reload than notching an arrow, Sonja can manage a rapid fire of two perfect simultaneous shots at the same time...which is technically impossible with a single shot crossbow, but hey, she does the impossible all the time:

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Finally, if we really want to see how well her particular combination of skill, experience, and physical stats work together, take a look at this massive beast, Leucoth:

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Yes, it towers over a city, and creates tidal waves. Sonja in one of her past lives, with nothing but a sword, fights this thing for days on end. She chops it up, bit by bloody bit, and then retrieves a mystic gem from its stomach, after which it sank to the bottom of the sea until it was resurrected. Subsequently, the battle took its toll on past Sonja and she did die, but not before defeating the beast. When it was eventually resurrected, Sonja then beat it again and she beats the superhuman demon/goddess that lived inside of it, and survives the encounter this time. Bits and pieces from each of the aforementioned scenes:

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Between the initial resume building, and seeing all of these feats...I don't think it can be argued that Sonja isn't stupidly skilled and an exceedingly dangerous foe...but I guess that is enough on the skill for now. Let's see what else we have to discuss...

vs Stealth/Strength/Speed

I have no doubts Sonja is strong. I also have no doubts that she has handled many opponents as strong, and several times stronger than Guen throughout the years. But I am not talking about defeating monsters. I am talking about overpowering.

And if we go back into the resume building section, I have given you feats of her managing to cross swords and wrestle with stronger foes than herself. Foes that did not manage to overpower her, even though they had a clear strength advantage. Her combination of skill, speed and strength allowed her to deal with such foes and come out on top. While I will admit, Guen's ability to overpower the foes that she has is impressive, I am not sure she will manage such against Sonja.

Here is an example of Guen moving FTE against a giant, and too fast for Drizzt to recognize that she'd even moved or lept.

And here, I don't really have any arguments against Guen's speed. Although, as shown, Sonja can pull FTE speeds as well. We need to put FTE into perspective, in that it is an ability that runs from the peak human levels, like with Batman, all the way through the likes of Wolverine to Spider-Man. Obviously, it is something that less than speedsters can accomplish, and there are arguments made on just how peak humans accomplish it (generally only the fastest and most skilled of this rank can do it), but overall, it is very impressive for characters that can accomplish the feat. It should not be undersold, but it is a skill that peak humans to superhumans have achieved, although for different lengths of time and only in bursts in some cases. That said, I have feats of Sonja casually reacting to swarms of arrows and arrows/bolts fired from behind, multi-directional lightning style attacks, redirect-able laser style attacks, and a plethora of superhumans all the way up to Spidey and Venom both.

I see Guen's speed as worthy and it will keep Sonja on her toes, but with Sonja's speed, skill and reactionary ability, I don't see it as an insurmountable obstacle. Sonja has dealt with faster foes. If Spidey couldn't hope to contain Sonja, and she could manage to tag him with his speed and spider-sense in play, then I tend to believe that more often than not, she will successfully be able to react to Guen in this fight without a whole lot of issue. Also, I may as well reiterate, that while Guen may be able to clear a longer distance, Sonja's own leaping ability it fairly considerable:

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She cleared the ground level of one floor through a hole to the floor above, cleared a massive gate, and made a vertical leap onto a speeding train. She has the movement options beyond just running, and can play a pretty gnarly avoidance game if needed. As for the stealth aspect, let's not forget that as a child, she was out-stealthing the senses of deer and other animals, and as an adult, in one of her weaker eras, managed to beat the insane senses of Conan. Avoiding Conan's stupidly enhanced senses...no small feat there. Still, Sonja is a legendary thief as well as warrior, and one of the few that has managed to out-thieve Conan. She was already a proficient thief as a child:

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Stealth is something that she is intimately familiar with. I already showed you that, as a child, she proved stealthy enough to sneak around and ambush a group of experienced warriors and mercenaries. Again, I must point out that she was doing this as a child. There was the time that she was helping her young protege get revenge, and they both attacked a fort with 20 men inside of it, following the plan Sonja laid out. The defenders could not track or find Sonja or her protege, and they thought they were being attacked by an army, not knowing it was simply Sonja and her student, stealthing around and sniping them:

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In a packed theatre, Sonja stealthily takes out General Taerga's guards, and gets the drop on the general herself without being seen until she wanted to be seen:

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Better yet, she kills all the guards of a keep, without a single, solitary one of them being able to raise an alarm, nor anyone inside the keep really being the wiser about what was going on (they were on high alert), and catches her prey:

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As for detecting stealth, I think I went into enough detail. Sure, Drow senses are awesome, but Sonja's senses allowed her to tag foes with perfect head shots while she was blinded and dying of a plague, and she did this through smell and sound. She detected Tarzan in the jungle...someone who arguably should be nearly impossible to detect in the jungle, even by those with superhuman senses. Plus she located the scent of a foe that was on the other side of an army, deep in a cave...that is some Wolverine level scent detection. With all of this in mind, let's move to the rebuttals, and get this bad boy closed out.

Rebuttals

I've shown her going FTE against creatures who are considered not only superior in speed and reflexes to humans and elves; but whose average training puts them above elite warriors of almost any other race. I've even provided instances of her appearing as a blur to the likes of Drizzt (the protagonist of the series) in close combat.

And I have shown Sonja reacting to the likes of Conan, Tarzan, John Carter, Vampirella, Hobgoblin, Venom, and Spider-Man...all characters that could match or flat out beat Guen's best combat speeds. While her speed is admirable and noteworthy, it's not beyond what Sonja has dealt with numerous times over, successfully I might add.

Sonja, by your own admission, is a low tonner level of strength. I've provided several examples of Guen overpowering low tonner characters casually, and staggering creatures who are Spiderman level in terms of strength. Can she overpower the latter? Absolutely not; but she is a little above the low tonner level of strength.

And I have provided plenty of examples of Sonja crossing swords and fighting hand to hand with tonners that broach the 8 to 10+ ton range. Guen may be able to overpower tonners, but she isn't at the level of strength of many of the foes I showed in the resume building section. If even the likes of Spidey couldn't manage to contain and overpower her...I dare say that Guen will fare little better. While I will admit Guen may be the stronger of the two, it's nothing Sonja hasn't faced and overcome before.

I've provided examples of her getting hit by crossbow bolts, swords (of superior metals to steel), and arrows. While some of these hurt her and even cause her to bleed, she has shown to definitively have the ability to tank piercing/slashing weapons and keep going. So it'll take a lot to put her down. As for her blunt force durability, she frequently tanks hits from creatures who weigh 1 ton with Spiderman levels of strength and keeps fighting. There are no peak humans who can compete with her in h2h without the use of a weapon, due to her blunt force durability.

And I have shown Sonja tanking hits from tonners, tanking a hit from the demonic shark, leaping off of a very high wall that towered over a forest and walking off the impact with the ground without ill effect, surviving an explosion that killed all the regular humans with nothing but some scuff marks, and surviving electrical attacks that fry regular humans. Now, I can dig up feats of her surviving and fighting through cutting/piercing attacks and the like, though those feats are moderately few and far between for her, thanks to her avoidance/defensive capabilities. Sonja's sports superhuman durability, make no mistake about that, and I dare say, Guen will have her hands full trying to actually put Sonja down.

Overall, Strength, Speed, and Durability go to Guen.

Not sure I agree. Strength probably goes to Guen, but with Sonja's unique combination of stats and skill, strength is honestly negligible. Speed, well Guen takes this in travel speeds and overal maneuverability. That said, Sonja has FTE speeds, and has kept up with Spider-Man levels of speed in combat. Personally, I feel takes the slight edge in combat speeds overall.

Are these physical abilities significantly above Sonja? I'd say no. They exist; but they aren't indomitably higher than Sonja's physical abilities. It's more like a slight advantage in each category. I have no doubt Sonja has fought SEVERAL opponents who were more enhanced in every category and come out the victor, much the way Guen has. But the advantage definitely is there.

Overall, I kind of feel like Sonja has more of an advantage in many of these categories, and the ones where she doesn't, like strength, are made negligible by her unique combination of skill and stats.

Beyond this, we have Guen's skillset. In this environment, I think Guen is going to be able to use her stealth to her advantage. I've proven that she has the ability to avoid detection against someone who is one of the best trackers in Forgotten Realms. Not only that; but he knows her intimately and has the enhanced sensory advantages of being a drow, and even he holds faith that she is still there, as he can't actually discern her location.

Honestly, thanks to plane shifting, in a pure stealth and hiding aspect, Guen takes this category. That said, we have open areas of the map that Sonja can take the battle to. As well, considering that Sonja can smell a foe across an entire army deep in a cave, can tag foes with perfect head shots while blind/sick/dying of a plague, can detect Tarzan stalking her in the jungle, and can react to and tag a speedy precog like Spidey...I tend to think she can make do, and react to Guen, even with planeshifting in effect, in which she still has to materialize with the telltale mist. Sonja isn't without combat speed and ability in this battle. Not to mention, if she can avoid detection by a guy that can track foes several days away by feeling vibrations on the ground, can smell water buried deep beneath the earth, can tag invisible foes with a thrown sword and so on...Guen's senses are considerable, but so are Conan's. I dare say that she actually stands a chance in keeping hidden from even Guen's considerable senses.

I really do believe the most likely scenario is Guen going on the defensive, and waiting for the most opportune moment to strike. She has hunting experience of something that has lived thousands of years, and has amazing instincts. She is highly intelligent, and understands human and warrior behavior intimately. I have no doubt Sonja possesses the abilities to detect Guen in time to defend herself; but I think more often than not Guen will get the jump on her. As shown earlier, Guen can cross 30-50 feet in an instant. If Guen gets in close, then I think Sonja will be in trouble, especially if caught offguard. Because of this, I put my faith in Guen over Sonja in this environment under these conditions.

Well, see my thoughts above. I do believe Guen possesses considerable speed and ability. It's just that an arrow and crossbow bolt can do the same with distance covered in an instant, as well can Vampirella, Spider-Man and so on. If Sonja can detect Guen in time, she can also react in time with skills and abilities, as shown.

I think her greatest advantage, however, is going to be experience. Does Sonja have multiple lifetimes of knowledge and experience? Absolutely, there's no debating her prowess as a comparable fighter to Guenhwyvar. However, most of Guen's feats and experience are against humanoids with instruments of war. She has spent lifetimes fighting armed and armored warriors from all walks of life. Sonja can easily claim the same; but I don't know if she's fought as many monstrous beasts as Guen has fought experienced warriors.

Sonja has been fighting monsters, warriors, gods and more since caveman times. I have already provided an extensive list of all of this and more, though admittedly, a good chunk of it comes from this post. Sonja has faced hordes and armies by her lonesome, and has led hordes and armies as a commander and queen. I honestly don't feel there is anything Guen has faced that Sonja doesn't have a comparable encounter to. She took down a beast that created tidal waves on the city it was threatening, and has faced all sizes down to a shapeshiter taking the shape of a bug. I can give you tons more on the monster slaying front, but I don't think Guen takes the experience angle.

Generally speaking, I really want to make sure it's known that I believe Sonja has it in her to win this fight. Her senses, speed, ability, and equipment is enough that she could catch Guen and turn the fight the other way. She is definitely fast, strong, and durable enough to keep up with Guen and score the hits necessary to defeat her. There's no doubting that. However, despite all this, I believe that under these conditions Guen will take the early advantage more often than not, with all the abilities I've provided, will be able to put Sonja at enough of a disadvantage early on to make this a victory.

I agree with this sentiment my friend, just on the reverse end, with Sonja taking the win over Guen. Even then, even if Guen managed the early advantage....it's not a matter of where you start, but a matter of where you end up. Sonja has overcome overwhelming odds in the face of complete and utter defeat before. Still, with what I have provided here, I don't see Sonja being at any serious disadvantage early on nor late in the game.

If she gains the ambush, she's smart enough not to press her luck, and has no issue retreating and striking against after Sonja has weakened from her early attacks. Making a hit and run a very viable tactic. Especially considering how much quicker her footspeed is. If she doesn't hit and run, it still remains that any grapple from Guen will prove to be lethal within moment. Even if Sonja does get a few good strikes in, Guen will remain the victor, even if heavily injured. Even in a straight fight, Guen has the ability to planeshift and come in from any angle. If Sonja predicts wrong, 600 pounds of black panther will be on top of her and I don't think she has it in her to survive that for long.

The problem on the hit and run...Sonja is deadly at range. I have shown that numerous times, and Guen present a much larger target than the likes of a bug. She is going to take a lot of damage in the retreat phase, and may take fatal hit if the Sword of Sorrow or blessed Hyrkanian blade are thrown. Grappling...Sonja has grappled with stronger, but I do believe her reactions to be fast enough to avoid such, or to redirect any initial tackle to do such into a flip and toss. The planeshift of course leaves telltale signs, and if she can predict and tag a spider-powered precog...I would say her prediction game is on point=)

Again, I'm not here to argue a vast majority victory. But I believe the slight advantage definitely goes to Guen. At least enough that I believe her to be the victor more often than not.

Well, I agree with the sentiment, I just see the overall advantages as being in Sonja's corner=)

In Closing

Well my friend, hopefully the length of the post wasn't too terrible in it's length, but I did have a lot of ground to cover. Especially considering the closing post is about all that is left after this one, and I am trying to keep from getting into anything new in that post. So, I look forward to your response my friend. This has been a fun experience overall, and I am glad we decided to do this.

Of course...closing out with my usual...

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Onto you my friend.

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#9 Posted by Wyldsong (9573 posts) - - Show Bio

@smxlr8: My friend, we just have to figure out a good match. I think that has been our only issue in doing a CaV between us. PM me, and we can start that process again=)

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#10 Posted by Wyldsong (9573 posts) - - Show Bio

@oceanmaster21: I need to finish up a post with @floopay, which I am working on. Let's just say, whoever can get to it first, drop their opening when ready. I can re-purpose another intro to get my part started, but I do need to respond in the other CaV first. I will do what I can my friend. Hope you are pumped for this my friend, we have been talking about it long enough=)